299 replies to this topic

[Beckett=AutoWin]

"The Yankees, meanwhile, have informed the Twins that they are going to pull their offer off the table soon -- perhaps by Tuesday at the latest -- unless they get an answer. The Yankees changed their offer on Friday, adding pitcher Phil Hughes after much internal debate, to go along with Melky Cabrera and a third prospect."

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=3138088



I say the Yankees are bluffing. There is no way they pull their offer off the table so that the Red Sox will be in prime position to get Santana. They've bluffed before, and they've shown that they won't keep up with what they are saying, example: A-Rod.


You think the Twins will actually buy this?

[BigMike]

Of course they are bluffing.

But at the same time they do also need to move on. I would expect them to start publicly negotiating with Oakland, and maybe Baltimore in the next few hours.

[Hairps]

I would expect them to start publicly negotiating with Oakland

The battle of wits between Billy Beane & Hank Steinbrenner would be fun to watch.

[Wingack]

Of course they are bluffing.

But at the same time they do also need to move on. I would expect them to start publicly negotiating with Oakland, and maybe Baltimore in the next few hours.

The might be bluffing, but they also might be toying with the Red Sox now. If the Twins don't agree to the Hughes, Melky, lesser prospect deal by the imposed "deadline" and the Red Sox don't up their offer to include Ellsbury or Buchholz (to see how committed they are to acquiring Santana) than possibly they pull Hughes off the table again and see if they can work out a lesser package.

And you are absolutely right, they need to move on, especially with the Winter Meetings starting tomorrow. They can't let the Twins destroy their chances of improving their team in other ways this week.

[adrenaline]

As long as the Sox aren't willing to add Ellsbury I don't see the Twins taking their offer, so the Yankees can make a deadline. Although I've heard they now are offering Jacoby.

[EvilEmpire]

Well, supposedly the Sox are offering Ellsbury but taking Lester out of it. Thats an increased offer, but unless the Twins really, really want Ellsbury, I'm not sure how it beats the Hughes offer. I know the Twins want some positional talent, but after trading Garza and dealing Santana I'm thinking the Twins are probably counting on a decent SP in any deal they make.

I certainly expect the Twins to make it sound like they prefer that Sox deal, but I'd be shocked if that were the case.

[adrenaline]

I didn't think of that, they're probably not giving up Santana without someone who can start games right now. But if the Yankees refuse to give up better than a second-tier guy for the third chip, I could see the Twins going into full rebuild mode and taking an Ellsbury package.

[Lollardfish]

I do wonder if the Yankees' inability to keep to their other publicly stated positions (no A-rod, no Hughes offer) will keep such posturing from being effective. I'm not saying that such blatherings in the press actually make a difference when Cashman and Smith talk, but I don't think we can know. It can't help to have repeatedly backed down from stated "lines in the sand."

[Rockin Robbin]

It's been nothing but empty threats from the New York FO this offseason, with the exception of not going four years with Rivera. No team or agent should take these deadlines seriously. They've already included one of their "untouchable" prospects in the deal and it's only a matter of time before the include one of the other prospects from the infamous list of Horne, Jackson, Tabata, Kennedy.

More agents and general mangers should go over Cashman's head and talk directly to Hank Steinbrenner, seeing as how he just can't seem to help himself in any negotiations.

[OCD SS]

The might be bluffing, but they also might be toying with the Red Sox now. If the Twins don't agree to the Hughes, Melky, lesser prospect deal by the imposed "deadline" and the Red Sox don't up their offer to include Ellsbury or Buchholz (to see how committed they are to acquiring Santana) than possibly they pull Hughes off the table again and see if they can work out a lesser package.

Ellsbury has been offered already, but the real issue for me is the bolded part. The Twins have said that they prefer Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, and Bowden/Masterson to the Kennedy, Melky, Jackson/Tabata offer. If the Yankees pull Hughes, why do you not think that the Sox would jump at the chance to make the previous deal?

It seems like very wishfull thinking that the Sox are only in this to keep Santana from the Yankees. In the minds of a lot of Yankee fans they were only in on Matsuzaka to block the Yankees, which clearly wasn't the case. They might pull back if the Yankees offer more talent they are willing to, but so far NY doesn't seem inclined to blow anyone out of the water.

[Beckett=AutoWin]

My personal theory is that the Twins will call their bluff and the Yankees will back out

for about 1 day

then they offer Hughes, Kennedy and Melky.

[EvilEmpire]

C'mon, lets not get carried away, shall we? Other than ARod, what "threats" are we talking about?

It wasn't so very long ago that Hank Steinbrenner mentioned that he wouldn't deal any of the untouchables...for a position player. That was before ARod came back and there was speculation about Miggy Cabrera. Early in the Santana negotiations the word was that the Yankees didn't want to include Hughes. I don't ever remember seeing anything from them that Hughes was untouchable with regards to Santana. Maybe I missed it though. I'd love to see a link.

To be sure, there is always some maneuvering with regards to negotiations, both at the table in the press. But I don't see how the Yankees bargaining with the Twins is any different that what the Sox are doing. Other than being at a disadvantage because of need. Wasn't Ellsbury untouchable at some point too?

[adrenaline]

then they offer Hughes, Kennedy and Melky.

No way, how dumb would they have to be to make a trade FOR starting pitching and end up with fewer MLB-ready starters than they began with?

[PooNani]

It's been nothing but empty threats from the New York FO this offseason, with the exception of not going four years with Rivera. No team or agent should take these deadlines seriously. They've already included one of their "untouchable" prospects in the deal and it's only a matter of time before the include one of the other prospects from the infamous list of Horne, Jackson, Tabata, Kennedy.

More agents and general mangers should go over Cashman's head and talk directly to Hank Steinbrenner, seeing as how he just can't seem to help himself in any negotiations.

when did he ever say that hughes was untouchable in a trade for santana? when did anyone ever say that? (other than the nimrods over at nyyfans)

[stephensjh]

Wasn't Ellsbury untouchable at some point too?

Boston Herald about a week ago:

" There are no untouchables," Epstein said. "If there's an opportunity to get better, we'll do it. We believe in those guys. Their value to us is legitimate. We're not eager to get rid of them."

As opposed to Hank S., Epstein hardly ever ( actually probably " never"!) engages in public ultimatums. He's insanely cryptic in his public posturing.

Edited by stephensjh, 02 December 2007 - 03:50 PM.

[Wingack]

Ellsbury has been offered already, but the real issue for me is the bolded part. The Twins have said that they prefer Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, and Bowden/Masterson to the Kennedy, Melky, Jackson/Tabata offer. If the Yankees pull Hughes, why do you not think that the Sox would jump at the chance to make the previous deal?

It seems like very wishfull thinking that the Sox are only in this to keep Santana from the Yankees. In the minds of a lot of Yankee fans they were only in on Matsuzaka to block the Yankees, which clearly wasn't the case. They might pull back if the Yankees offer more talent they are willing to, but so far NY doesn't seem inclined to blow anyone out of the water.

I admit, I am still a little skeptical about the Sox pursuit of Santana, I have nothing to base this on of course, but it's just a feeling. I can easily be proven wrong in 72 hours or so, and I will probably end up eating some humble pie.


I also, don't think the Twins would accept an offer with our Lester or Buchholz in it. They are losing Santana, Garza and Silva this offseason. They need an arm that can step in to the rotation right away (Lester, Buchholz, Hughes, Kennedy). It would be foolish for them to make such a trade.

[OCD SS]

But the Yankees have said that they will not include, Hughes and Kennedy. Most of the Yankee fans here seem to feel the same way, and there have been quite a few posts about the Yankees pulling back or telling the Twins to take it or leave it. Other than having a propensity for spending money, why should anyone not get the idea that the Yankees are not serious?

[judyb]

I know, if one team of the Yankees and Red Sox has shown they understand the value of acquiring elite pitchers in their primes, I'd have to say it's the Red Sox. The Yankees have seemed mostly content to overpay older pitchers and make do with younger ones.

[jon abbey]

the part I hope they're bluffing about is Haren, there's no way they should give up what it will take to get him.

even as a Yankee fan, I can see how it's good for baseball that this blowhard Hank is running the team, because if you combined premium decision-making (and I'm a big fan of Cashman, when they let him actually make the decisions) with their seemingly unlimited wallets, other teams wouldn't have much of a chance.

[jon abbey]

this position from NY is even stupider in conjunction with what just came out, that Santana will refuse to be traded midseason. so Minnesota needs to deal him now or take the draft picks next year (or maybe there's still a tiny chance that Pohlad can open up his cheap-ass pockets and pay him what he's worth). anyway, I guess we'll see, it's hard to make definitive statements about proceedings you don't really know all the details of, but that "ultimatum" really doesn't seem smart.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

even as a Yankee fan, I can see how it's good for baseball that this blowhard Hank is running the team, because if you combined premium decision-making (and I'm a big fan of Cashman, when they let him actually make the decisions) with their seemingly unlimited wallets, other teams wouldn't have much of a chance.

Give me a break. The Yankees have put a premium product on the field, they've targeted the players they wanted and almost always got the players and the coaches they wanted. They have simply failed. Don't exclusively blame blowhard owners for it. There is plenty of blame to go around, including Cashman and, gee I dunno, the players. But oh no, blame George and Hank. Whatever. For the last couple of years it is pretty clear that Cashman has been running the operation, so it's been a failure all around, not simply a result of intrusive owners.

[PooNani]

i dont see the stupidity of this. The yankees need to make a decision soon before other trade opportunities dry up. If the Twins really do favor the Ellsbury offer over the Hughes one, they need the Yankees interest to make the Ellsbury deal happen. The second the Yankees pull Hughes off the table, they lose Ellsbury and the Twins (now without the opportunity to delay the trades till July) will have to trade Santana for a sub-standard package or take the draft picks. Either make the damn decision now or hold onto him. They know the GM meetings is where a lot of dealing will be happening, and waiting on Smith to pick a deal is counterproductive for the Yankees. The Sox can afford to drag this out because the trading for another starter is not a make or break deal for them. They can sit and wait for Santana as Haren, Blanton, and Bedard go elsewhere, and if they still end up winning the Santana sweepstakes, they kill the Yankees chances of upgrading their rotation. And if Santana heads to the Yankees and theres no remaining trade opportunities, the Sox still have Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, Buchholz, and Lester for their rotation

The Twins are really lacking in the leverage department, considering both teams would love to just take a shot at him in FA and not give anything up

Edited by PooNani, 02 December 2007 - 09:32 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

What other opportunities are going to dry up?
After seeing the reports of all these bids, is Beane going to not bother to talk to them? Are the Orioles not going to bother to call them? Nothing's happening on those other deals till something happens on this one because those other sellers will try to fleece the team that loses out on Santana.

[jon abbey]

Give me a break. The Yankees have put a premium product on the field, they've targeted the players they wanted and almost always got the players and the coaches they wanted. They have simply failed. Don't exclusively blame blowhard owners for it. There is plenty of blame to go around, including Cashman and, gee I dunno, the players. But oh no, blame George and Hank. Whatever. For the last couple of years it is pretty clear that Cashman has been running the operation, so it's been a failure all around, not simply a result of intrusive owners.

wow, I usually agree with you, maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not exclusively blaming the owners, everyone makes their share of bad decisions, Cashman, Theo, whoever. I just feel a lot more comfortable when Cashman makes the decisions and not 1) the Tampa crew a few years back or 2) Hank now. you're right that since the 2005 offseason, Cashman has had sole responsibility for player moves, and I think he's done a very nice job. my issue is that his influence seems to be dwindling again now.

[jon abbey]

the latest from Big Mouth Hank. dude just does not shut up...

========================================================

"I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox. That's not something I'll do. That's not something the Yankees should ever do, and that's I think what they're trying to do now," Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday. "So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds."

The Yankees have proposed swapping pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a midlevel prospect for the two-time Cy Young Award winner, who can become a free agent after next season.

Boston also is competing to land Santana. The Red Sox are thought to have offered a package that would include pitcher Jon Lester or center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury but not both. Center fielder Coco Crisp also could be part of a trade.

Steinbrenner wouldn't set a specific time Monday for pulling out.

"We'll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It's not a bluff. It's just reality," he said. "Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him -- but the fact is that I'm not going to play the game. We've made them the best offer. And at this point, it's not going to get any better. So they can decide. At this point, it's up to them. I don't think they want to lose us in this thing, obviously. Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation."

A trade likely would have to be made on a conditional basis, giving the Yankees or Red Sox 72 hours to work out a new long-term contract for Santana, who is owed $13.25 million next season. Steinbrenner said the Yankees didn't want to wait too long, miss out on Santana and then find out it was too late to get involved in talks for other pitchers, such as Oakland's Dan Haren.

"We need to get things straightened out, and not wait around for them to run back to Boston and back to us, and then back to Boston," he said. "I'm not going to do that.""

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=3138748

[Fratboy]

Wow. That's laughable. "Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation." I realize that the Yankees are a charmed organization, filled with aura, mystique, and a legacy of winning, but still, such hubris isn't likely to curry the Twins' favor.

Advantage: Red Sox.

[Rockin Robbin]

I'm convinced that Brian Cashman is tied up somewhere in Hal Steinbrenners basement, with Hank demanding that Hal "stick to the plan."

[jarules1185]

Everyone saying flat out "The Yankee are totally bluffing, theres no way the Twins fall for this" reminds me of the guys at a poker table that aren't involved in the hand but want somebody to call a big bet just because they want to see what the betting guy has. Of course you think he's bluffing, there's much less at stake for you and it doesn't hurt you at all if they call the bet. Hell, you actually gain more information if they call the bet. The Sox use negotiating tactics too, like withholding Ellsbury until today.

Edited by jarules1185, 02 December 2007 - 10:40 PM.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

wow, I usually agree with you, maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not exclusively blaming the owners, everyone makes their share of bad decisions, Cashman, Theo, whoever. I just feel a lot more comfortable when Cashman makes the decisions and not 1) the Tampa crew a few years back or 2) Hank now. you're right that since the 2005 offseason, Cashman has had sole responsibility for player moves, and I think he's done a very nice job. my issue is that his influence seems to be dwindling again now.

Hahah, thanks, I'm flattered! I guess it sounded to me like you were suggesting that the only thing preventing Yankee hegemony was a muzzle on ownership.

I'm not yet sure what to make of Hank. These next several weeks will reveal what we should expect for the next several years.

[Doctor G]

Hank evidently has forgotten whatever experience he has had at the Keeneland Auction. What are the Twins supposed to do Hank, not ask the Red Sox to bid higher because you bid last. And you get to bid last because you are the Yankees. The Twins are the ones with the gavel and they are the ones who are in charge of How long this lasts.

[snowmanny]

Man, Hank is incredible. I've felt he was borderline tampering right along, talking about how much they'd love to have him while the Twins were negotiating with Santana. Talking about how he wouldn't trade a top pitching prospect for Miguel Cabrera but would for an Ace.
Today, making sure Santana knows how much they want him, etc.

The odds favor Santana going to New York, but if the Red Sox make the trade, I wonder if Hank would have the ability to keep his mouth shut during the 72-hour negotiating period.

Edited to make it more like actual English.

Edited by snowmanny, 02 December 2007 - 10:51 PM.

[EvilEmpire]

I wish Hank would keep his pie-hole shut.

That said, I'm sure this is as irritating for the Sox and Twins as it is for some of us. The more Stein Jr. talks to the media about what he will or won't do, the harder it will be for him to back down. Even though he got paid in the end, ARod first had to genuflect and kiss the ring. Hank seems to have too big an ego to lose that much face. And since he's part of the ownership team, he won't have to. He really can follow through and walk away. Its not like he is a GM trying to keep his job or something. Hell, if he did, there would probably be a ton of Yankee fans extolling his tough stance and talking about how glad they were to keep Hughes. Mostly New Yorkers, I'm sure. Its not like there is an asshole shortage in that city or anything.

I wouldn't take it for granted that he is bluffing. He could be, but somehow I don't think the subtlety required is really his strong suit.

[StuckOnYouk]

The more Stein Jr. talks to the media about what he will or won't do, the harder it will be for him to back down. Even though he got paid in the end, ARod first had to genuflect and kiss the ring. Hank seems to have too big an ego to lose that much face. And since he's part of the ownership team, he won't have to. He really can follow through and walk away.

Hey, I'd genuflect and kiss his ring for 300 million dollars too. Doesn't mean that Hank is a man of his word when he hands out his threats. He did use the words "No chance" when describing the possiblity of the Yanks re-signing A-Rod after the opt-out.

"No chance" includes every future development, including A-Rod "crawling back" for 300 million.

[EvilEmpire]

Hey, I'd genuflect and kiss his ring for 300 million dollars too. Doesn't mean that Hank is a man of his word when he hands out his threats. He did use the words "No chance" when describing the possiblity of the Yanks re-signing A-Rod after the opt-out.

"No chance" includes every future development, including A-Rod "crawling back" for 300 million.

Well, we're talking about perceptions -- the percpetion most prevalent in the media is that ARod came crawling back. Hank didn't lose any face in that regard. Whether he is a man of his word or not, and what circumstances he really meant with the "no chance" bit is really immaterial to me. I didn't claim he was a man of his word, only that his ego seems big enough to do what he's saying. This guy seems to love the spotlight. I have a hard time seeing him back down in such a public way. Rightly or wrongly, the ARod saga didn't play that way.

Again, its all about perceptions with him, I think.

Edit: Oh and for the record, if my feelings on the matter aren't coming through clearly enough, I do not think this is a good thing. H.S. constantly running his mouth sucks.

Edited by EvilEmpire, 02 December 2007 - 11:42 PM.

[stephensjh]

Hey, I'd genuflect and kiss his ring for 300 million dollars too. Doesn't mean that Hank is a man of his word when he hands out his threats. He did use the words "No chance" when describing the possiblity of the Yanks re-signing A-Rod after the opt-out.

"No chance" includes every future development, including A-Rod "crawling back" for 300 million.

Didn't Hank just say a day or two ago, the Yanks were going into stealth mode and will thus not be discussing the Santana L'Affaire thru the media. Now this latest episode!

Just for fun :

"We’re not going to back down. It’s goodbye….. It’s clear he didn’t want to be a Yankee. He doesn’t understand the privilege of being a Yankee on a team where the owners are willing to pay $200 million to put a winning product on the field…. If you don’t want to be a Yankee and paid what you’re being paid, we don’t want you, that’s the bottom line. You’d be hard-pressed to argue that point. If you don’t understand the magnitude of being a Yankee and understand what that means, and being the highest-paid player in baseball, I think it’s pretty obvious."

[Rockin Robbin]

The worst part of this is that if New York is able to land Santana in the next 24-48 hours, this threat by Steinbrener and the Twins accepting their deal will be looked at as another victory for Hank Steinbrenner and the New York FO. Fans and media will point to these comments by Hammerin Hank as Steinbrenner and the Yankees "not backing down" and showing Boston that they will not be played. We can debate whether or not Boston was the real winner by having New York give up Hughes, but that won't be the story among fans and media outside of Sons of Sam and NYYfans.

[PooNani]

What other opportunities are going to dry up?
After seeing the reports of all these bids, is Beane going to not bother to talk to them? Are the Orioles not going to bother to call them? Nothing's happening on those other deals till something happens on this one because those other sellers will try to fleece the team that loses out on Santana.

Who are the Orioles going to trade? Any teams who were going to offer the packages equal or similar to the Yankees or Red Sox right now would have been in the running. The Twins sure as hell don't want to make the two wealthiest teams any better, but they are the ones who have stepped up to this level.

Steinbrenner and company are playing it perfectly. They made an offer that they believe (and I believe) is very fair. If the Twins are only going to accept the Yankees offer if they add Kennedy, then fuck them. The second the Yankees take their offer off the table and look to other trade opportunities, what do the Twins have? The Sox sure as hell aren't keeping Ellsbury on the table.

Best case scenario at that point is the lesser trade offers will start to come in again, and they'll get a weaker package than whats being offered right now by the Sox and Yankees. Worst case scenario is they have to choose between Lester/Crisp/Masterson and two draft picks...and FA benefits the Yankees and all the other teams anyway.

It's easy to pick on this guy right now, but hes not some 20 year old with zero knowledge of the business. He's in his 50s, and has overseen the baseball operations for nearly a decade IIRC. The guy is full of hot air, but again....he's merely restating what's been written in the press via rumors, and what goes along with Cashman's stated plans. Nothing that has happened so far has gone against what Cashman has talked about before. No, A-Rod did not come at a discount, but as Cashman had stated, the Yankees we're not going to pursue A-Rod and as far as he was concerned, his future with the Yankees was over. A-Rod was the one who extended his hand, and sure he ended up making a shit-ton of money, but IMO that does nothing to destroy the Yankees' bargaining power. He is the best player in baseball after all.

Considering that Cashman has always kept quiet and didn't like the media attention, I'm glad to be hearing from Steinbrenner about what's going on with the team, provided it doesnt interfere with the team's bargaining skills. So far, it hasn't.

[Rough Carrigan]

The Orioles have Eric Bedard available to at least some degree. According to some reports they've already had conversations with the Dodgers about him. I didn't mean that the Orioles would try to trade for Haren.

[jon abbey]

well, if nothing else, Hank pissed off Mariano for no reason.

it's true that it's worked out OK so far, it's just kind of an obnoxious way to do business, and very unnecessarily public. I do think that if Hank keeps laying his cards on the table so publicly, one of these is going to blow up in his face and hurt the Yankees, but we'll see.

Edited by jon abbey, 03 December 2007 - 12:05 AM.

[Foulkey Reese]

So does Cashman just get coffee for everybody at this point or what?

“How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”

http://www.nytimes.c...gtIgvh/Imrf/Btw

[stephensjh]

On the Main Board "News only" thread , there is a link to a McAdam/proJo article dated 1am 12/3 with a few updates. Among his tidbits, he is reporting that Santana will only accept a trade to the Yanks or BoSox. If true, it sure explains why the Dodgers haven't been involved- they would seem to be the perfect fit and would likely be NL favorites if they could acquire Santana.

[NYCSox]

In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else

Really? Care for some cheese with that whine?

Edited by NYCSox, 03 December 2007 - 12:29 AM.

[Lukiewerle]

So does Cashman just get coffee for everybody at this point or what?
http://www.nytimes.c...gtIgvh/Imrf/Btw

Hankenstein almost deserves his own "quotes" thread at this point.

[Rockin Robbin]

There is a good chance Hank will be talking in the third person by the All Star Break.

Updates:

Heyman was just on Mike'd up from Nashville and ranked Yankee's #1 and Red Sox #2 in the Santana Sweepstakes. Hey claimed he ran into a Red Sox Executive in the hallway who stated: 'we won in October and they (the MFYs) can have November/December.' Which indicated to Heyman that the Red Sox were conceding it...

A second baseball official, from a team involved with Santana talks, said the Twins continue to pester the Red Sox to up their offer for Santana, even as the Sox insist they will also stand firm.

So the Twins are either holding out for more -- a tactic limited by Santana's reported stance -- or playing the rivals off each other to see if either one ups the ante before choosing one of the offers.

The first official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to tampering rules, said the Yankees insist they have made the Twins the offer they sought for their ace, so it should be good enough.

The second official, who asked not to be named because of the sensitive nature of trade discussions, denied an ESPN.com report that Boston relented and is willing to include outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for Santana. The official reiterated what was reported last week: The Red Sox would put Ellsbury in the deal only if the Twins included a significant "extra piece" in addition to Santana.QUOTEThe Twins "know exactly where (the Red Sox) stand and they keep coming back," the official said.

One reason, the official believed, was that the Twins want the Yankees to include a top-level prospect -- "substance" -- along with Hughes and Cabrera.

Minnesota's thinking, in that case, is that Cabrera is not an exceptional player, so Hughes would need to pan out as well as many expect for the Twins to get value for Santana. A top prospect in addition to Hughes and Cabrera would increase the chances the Twins benefit from dealing a two-time Cy Young Award winner.

http://www.nj.com/sp...?...&thispage=1

New York wins.

It appears as though Minnesota has been content with a Hughes/Cabrera deal this whole time but are attempting get Boston to increase the Ellsbury offer to try and squeeze out one more prospect out of New York before they accept Hughes/ Cabrera. Boston will not offer Ellsbury and Lester/Buchholz and are ready to concede, so New York has no reason to throw in a third top prospect. Now that New York has set the deadline and Santana has made it clear that he will veto all other deals outside of Boston and New York, Minnesota has no choice but to accept the best offer, which is Hughes. If not, they will be left to deal with only Boston, who would have all the leverage. The Twins are now backed into a corner, with Boston unwilling to increase their offer and Santana willing to veto all trades during the season and outside of Boston/New York. They really have no choice but to accept New York's offer, right here and right now.

Edited by Rockin Robbin, 03 December 2007 - 01:26 AM.

[StuckOnYouk]

I have to say, if Epstein's final offer doesn't include Ellsbury and Lester to bag the best starting pitcher in baseball over the last 4 years, then he never really wanted him all along.

I'll give some kudos to Theo for at least making sure the Yankees gave up wonderboy Philip Hughes, and perhaps forcing Damon to play CF again, but I'm a bit suprised Theo doesn't seem to want Johan for the apparent asking price.

I hope this is more a case of the Sox FO just not wanting to give one player 25 mil a year for the next 6 years instead of the alternative, which is that the Sox FO thinks giving up Lester/Ellsbury/Lowrie + is too much for a 1-2 punch of Santana and Beckett for at least the next 3 years.

[Rockin Robbin]

The Red Sox have an opportunity to acquire a second Ace and put even more of a distance between themselves and the Yankees. Are Ellsbury and Lester worth more than the opportunity to make yourself considerably better than New York for the next 2-3 years? No. That is what Epstein needs to ask himself. It would be tough to lose Ellsbury and Lester or raise the payroll by $20 million dollars, but there will be plenty of time to rebuild the farm system and earn that money back when Beckett and Santana are leading you to a few more World Series appearances.

[jtn46]

I agree with PooNani's initial take, that the Yankees have to move on. The Red Sox spent more than a couple offseasons configuring elaborate trades involving Manny that never happened and it's impossible to believe it wasn't at least a minor distraction.

The Yankees have needs and need to know where their team stands. If they have holes to fill, they can't wait around to see if this trade fills them because it seems like there's a very good chance they'll end up empty handed.

Edited by jtn46, 03 December 2007 - 04:37 AM.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

There is a good chance Hank will be talking in the third person by the All Star Break.

Updates:
http://www.nj.com/sp...?...&thispage=1

New York wins.

It appears as though Minnesota has been content with a Hughes/Cabrera deal this whole time but are attempting get Boston to increase the Ellsbury offer to try and squeeze out one more prospect out of New York before they accept Hughes/ Cabrera. Boston will not offer Ellsbury and Lester/Buchholz and are ready to concede, so New York has no reason to throw in a third top prospect. Now that New York has set the deadline and Santana has made it clear that he will veto all other deals outside of Boston and New York, Minnesota has no choice but to accept the best offer, which is Hughes. If not, they will be left to deal with only Boston, who would have all the leverage. The Twins are now backed into a corner, with Boston unwilling to increase their offer and Santana willing to veto all trades during the season and outside of Boston/New York. They really have no choice but to accept New York's offer, right here and right now.

1. There's no reason to believe that the Yankees "deadline" is chiseled in stone. Neither NY nor Boston will start pulling players back after midnight tonight, because doing so may give the other team an edge.

2. In Minnesota's view, the "best offer" may or may not include the "best player". The excerpts you clipped above make it clear enough that the Twins are concerned about putting all their eggs in one basket with Hughes. It's not at all inconceivable that they may decide to view a Boston offer of Lester/Crisp/Lowrie and an AA arm as superior because it spreads the risk over more players with decent upsides.

[PooNani]

well, if nothing else, Hank pissed off Mariano for no reason.

it's true that it's worked out OK so far, it's just kind of an obnoxious way to do business, and very unnecessarily public. I do think that if Hank keeps laying his cards on the table so publicly, one of these is going to blow up in his face and hurt the Yankees, but we'll see.

obnoxious or not, at least its entertaining.

1. There's no reason to believe that the Yankees "deadline" is chiseled in stone. Neither NY nor Boston will start pulling players back after midnight tonight, because doing so may give the other team an edge.

alright sylvia browne if you say so. the twins are clearly going to be fine without the yankees offer on the table

http://www.projo.com...14.29961f1.html

Santana, who has a full-no trade clause and intends to wield it to land a six-year contract extension from any team striking a deal for him, told the Twins that he would veto a trade to any team except the Yankees or Red Sox. He also warned them that he would not accept a deal in-season, forcing the Twins to move him this week or lose him to free agency after the 2008 season, when his current contract expires.

it's getting done today

[EvilEmpire]

1. There's no reason to believe that the Yankees "deadline" is chiseled in stone. Neither NY nor Boston will start pulling players back after midnight tonight, because doing so may give the other team an edge.

If Boston doesn't improve their offer, why wouldn't Minnesota just make a decision one way of the other? If Boston doesn't improve their offer there is no reason for the Yankees to. The Yanks might be perfectly happy for Minnesota to just keep Santana and then have a shot at him as a FA without giving any prospects up next year.