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The All New, Official "Noise-Free" Johan Santana Discussion Thread


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#301 glennhoffmania


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 02:55 PM

I can understand wanting to land Ellsbury over Crisp, as he's under their control for three more years than Coco is, but to sacrifice four or five years of Lester for the perceived upgrade of Ellsbury to Crisp doesn't make much more sense to me either. Knowing what we know right now, there's just no way that six years of Ellsbury is worth more than three of Crisp and four or five of Lester. Even though the Twins have a perceived glut of young pitching, there's no such thing as too much young pitching.

Perhaps the Twins are hoping the Sox will subsidize some of Crisp's contract?


I was about to post something on this issue. I don't see Ellsbury and Lester/Coco as equal at all. I'd much rather have Lester/Coco. It's basically about $21m combined for three years of Coco and Lester. If that money is an obstacle for the Twins for some reason, Theo should just give them Ellsbury and be happy. I'd rather take a chance that Lester pans out with Coco in CF than hope that Ellsbury can become the next Lofton.

#302 GreyisGone

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 02:56 PM

Source: http://www.startribu...istensen/?p=434

Scouts have long been torn on him as a SS. Most have come around to him being an average MLB SS though. Seems these days you can find an unnamed scout to say anything about a player though. I can't imagine any worthwhile scout would use such hyperbole over a few offseason games...if that.

#303 Quintanariffic

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 02:57 PM

Source: http://www.startribu...istensen/?p=434

Interesting. There is little in the way of middle ground on his defense. Scouts either like him at SS or really think it's out of the question. I suspect that part of that has to do with the day they see him. The consensus, however, has clearly shifted over the last year from "not a snowball's chance" to "glove will play at SS". I think the Carlos Guillen comp is applicable here as well. Good hit, so-so glove and range. Maybe a more patient and better hitting version of Todd Walker, as long as we're talking middle infielders.

#304 sox311

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 02:59 PM

Rotoworld:

According to the Providence Journal, the Angels have made a late bid for Johan Santana, with Jered Weaver likely involved as bait.



#305 The Filthy One

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:03 PM

Interesting. There is little in the way of middle ground on his defense. Scouts either like him at SS or really think it's out of the question. I suspect that part of that has to do with the day they see him. The consensus, however, has clearly shifted over the last year from "not a snowball's chance" to "glove will play at SS". I think the Carlos Guillen comp is applicable here as well. Good hit, so-so glove and range. Maybe a more patient and better hitting version of Todd Walker, as long as we're talking middle infielders.


It's worth noting that the Twins aren't really set anywhere in the infield other than 1B. They have Casilla at 2B and Putno floating around. They got Harris to play SS but nobody seems too thrilled with his glove either. It's possible they could move Cuddyer to 3B, but it's seems just as likely that Lowrie could figure at 3B, too. Obviously, Lowrie has more value as a SS, but I'm not sure the Twins wouldn't be interested in him elsewhere as well.

#306 Jimbodandy

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:04 PM

Interesting. There is little in the way of middle ground on his defense. Scouts either like him at SS or really think it's out of the question. I suspect that part of that has to do with the day they see him. The consensus, however, has clearly shifted over the last year from "not a snowball's chance" to "glove will play at SS". I think the Carlos Guillen comp is applicable here as well. Good hit, so-so glove and range. Maybe a more patient and better hitting version of Todd Walker, as long as we're talking middle infielders.


Perhaps that quote is a complete fabrication. It could very well be posturing intended to scare the Sox into adding another piece. If that additional piece is not painful, so be it.

#307 The Boomer

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:04 PM

As a pre-emptive strike, let me be the first to suggest a note of caution. The last time the Red Sox and Yankees engaged in a series of negotiations for a superstar it was four years ago for Alex Rodriguez. The Yankees won the war, their fans and owner rubbed our noses in it, and the Red Sox have won 2 World Series since then.

If the Yankees do not get Santana, they are still a very good team with vast resources who will likely improve their team substantially before Opening Day. If the Red Sox have Santana, beating the 2008 Yankees will still be a bitch and a half.


Bingo. The Yankees really made out in terms of perceived cost when they first acquired A Rod because Texas subsidized a significant amount of his salary. That financial bonus disappeared when Boras opted out before A Rod was recently brought back at virtually full value. To me, the Santana situation is similar except that, with the Yankees paying full price for him (both in terms of prospects and salary), they will be left with fewer major league (or almost) ready cost controlled players while paying more or less than $50 million each year (for the next 6 or so) for just two players. Cornering the market for the best player and best pitcher in the game might not work out much better in the long run because the salary for just those two players combined will exceed the payroll for all 25 players on many of the small market teams. To me, Santana plus $20-$25 million paid out per season compared to Lester plus financial flexibility makes the rumored acquisition of Santana by the Sox absurd. It's much more satisfying to me when the Sox contend (and win) with a combination of home grown talent requiring only a few mercenaries sprinkled into their lineup. Throughout baseball, the Sox will be more respected for smartly exploiting their resource advantage over most teams than they will be for attempting to compete directly with the Yankees by fielding teams of All Stars no matter what it costs.

Some underdog spirit is probably healthy for the franchise and spending money as if it doesn't matter (which only the Yankees can really do) detracts from this and IMO will actually be harmful.

Edited by The Boomer, 04 December 2007 - 03:19 PM.


#308 Oil Can's Liver


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:05 PM

Rotoworld:


Jered Weaver annnd??? The Angels have been very reluctant to even discuss Brandon Wood. I know they have a new GM but with Cabrera being dealt Wood may be in their immediate plans at the Big League level. They have some good prospects, but I am not convinced Jered Weaver is any better than Lester at this point. Weaver had a GREAT rookie campaign but tailed off last year. Also, Weaver had the same kind of problems Lester did, racking up high pitch counts early in games and effectively being a 5 inning starter. Unless they are willing to pony up some VERY GOOD prospects; I cannot see Jered Weaver being the "dealmaker" for Minnesota.

#309 941827

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:08 PM

Rotoworld:


Rotoworld's reading comprehension gets worse by the day. Here's what the report actually says:

The Twins have told the Angels that Jared Weaver would have to be part of a deal for Santana to give Minnesota another young starter as part of the mix. Other names expected to be talked about include shortstop prospect Brandon Wood.


http://www.beloblog....e_angels_j.html

Rotoworld makes it sound like an offer's been made, whereas the actual report makes it sounds like the Angels inquired about Santana and got a response from the Twins.

Edited by 941827, 04 December 2007 - 03:09 PM.


#310 tywebb444

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:10 PM

Jered Weaver annnd??? The Angels have been very reluctant to even discuss Brandon Wood. I know they have a new GM but with Cabrera being dealt Wood may be in their immediate plans at the Big League level. They have some good prospects, but I am not convinced Jered Weaver is any better than Lester at this point. Weaver had a GREAT rookie campaign but tailed off last year. Also, Weaver had the same kind of problems Lester did, racking up high pitch counts early in games and effectively being a 5 inning starter. Unless they are willing to pony up some VERY GOOD prospects; I cannot see Jered Weaver being the "dealmaker" for Minnesota.

The main sticking point for the Angels, would be the contract extention. They have the prospects, but the thought of giving up the prospects, plus a 20 million contract, when they just signed Hunter (18 mil), still have Gary Matthews (10 mil) at an awful contract and have to worry about resigning Guerrero (at least as much as Hunter. This is why Cabrera who isn't a FA just yet, makes more sense for them. Just don't see it happening. I still think it's the Sox or the Yanks. Wouldn't surprise me if the Yanks swoop in and sweeten their offer.

#311 dcmissle


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:41 PM

The Twins will shop the Sox "best offer" as you'd expect them to, while Angels/Marlins/Tigers have a scrum, with the former apparently having a foot in both camps. Meanwhile, the Yanks are playing rope a dope. At a certain point, it's not unreasonable for the Sox to ask the Twins, "You asked for our best offer. We've given it. Now what?"

#312 Ananti


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:46 PM

The Twins will shop the Sox "best offer" as you'd expect them to, while Angels/Marlins/Tigers have a scrum, with the former apparently having a foot in both camps. Meanwhile, the Yanks are playing rope a dope. At a certain point, it's not unreasonable for the Sox to ask the Twins, "You asked for our best offer. We've given it. Now what?"


Isn't that what exactly the Yankees did, they got sick of the Twins shopping their best offer around and said enough is enough.

I don't blame the Twins for wanting the best offer, but at some point they have to make a decision or people will move on to plan B.

#313 MikeGreenwell

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:47 PM

Buster Olney at ESPN:

The Yankees and Twins haven't talked at all so far Tuesday about Johan Santana, amid increasing indications Santana is going to be dealt to Boston. The Twins are also talking to the Angels, however.


Put me in the camp that hopes that the Angels end up being the ones to take the massive prospects and lengthy record-setting contract risk. And I'd bet there's more than one Red Sox front office member is secretly feeling the same right now -- go Angels, as long as he doesn't go to NY, I don't care where he goes. The Sox have won World Series with Santana in Minnesota, they can still win them with him in Anaheim.

Edited by MikeGreenwell, 04 December 2007 - 03:52 PM.


#314 yecul


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:48 PM

The Twins are not terribly satisfied with Boston's offer -- nor should they be -- and are ok if Boston pulls it off the table. Right now it seems that they are willing to explore other options. The Yankees and the Red Sox will be there for a while longer. If the Twins went to the Yankees right now and accepted their last offer then the Yankees would listen.

People don't seem to consider the Twins walking away keeping Santana as a viable option. They should because I guarantee that's what Minnesota is thinking.

Edited by yecul, 04 December 2007 - 03:51 PM.


#315 Wingack


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:50 PM

Isn't that what exactly the Yankees did, they got sick of the Twins shopping their best offer around and said enough is enough.

I don't blame the Twins for wanting the best offer, but at some point they have to make a decision or people will move on to plan B.


If the Angels are serious, the best offer will come from the Angels. Start with Weaver/Wood/Willits and then tacking on prospects at the end of the deal like it appears the Sox are now doing with Kalish.

#316 TheBenzingerGame


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:50 PM

Isn't that what exactly the Yankees did, they got sick of the Twins shopping their best offer around and said enough is enough.

I don't blame the Twins for wanting the best offer, but at some point they have to make a decision or people will move on to plan B.


Not really - if the Twins stall long enough for the palatable Plan B's to dry up, they can count on the Sox-Yankees bidding war to intensify. And with the "Haren to Arizona" and "Bedard to LA" reports swirling around, that appears to be happening.

In fact, if the report that was just cross-posted in the news thread is true (Gammons says the Sox add Kalish to the offer), we might be seeing exactly that.

With so many interesting names in the mix, the timing of all this is crucial.

#317 86spike


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:53 PM

per Gammons in the news thread, the Sox have added Kalish as a 5th player.

So that means it's Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson/Kalish

and the Sox get to keep Buchholz and Ellsbury.

So I think we can put to rest the BS about how Theo is only in it to drive up the price for the Yanks.


As for the rumors of the Angels kicking the tires... the other hot rumor is that the Dodgers are close to getting Bedard (for Broxton and Kemp) which would seem to take LAD out of the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes. I can't imagine LAAofA would burn up prospies on Santana if Cabrera could be had soon.

Of course, the Twins might decide to wait out the Bedard/Cabrera/Haren moves as that would be their perogative.

#318 86spike


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:00 PM

The Sox have won World Series with Santana in Minnesota, they can still win them with him in Anaheim.


If the Angels had Santana this year the Sox very likely could have been bounced in the first round of the playoffs. In other words: The best place for Joahn Santana (IMO) is on the Sox. I agree that having him in LA instead of NY is good... but the best scenario is to bring him to the Fens.

Except he is also one of the only potential impact bats in the system. We can get into a fairly long discussion about if the Red Sox have changed some kind of strategy where they think they will find bats by other means than developing them, but to me their record doing so is spotty and basically anchored by hitting the jackpot with David Ortiz.


With a pitching rotation of Santana/Beckett/Matsuzaka/Buchholz the Sox may not need all that offense.

#319 CrouchingTonyHiddenPena


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:02 PM

Building on the "No news is good news" front. Here is a hint something might be done behind the scenes without so much a a peep (as we would expect), from Bill Smith:

The Mariners pulled out of the running during the day, but it was unclear whether the Dodgers, Angels or Mets were going ramp up interest.

While Santana filmed TV commercials in Venezuela this week, Twins GM Bill Smith looked and sounded well-rehearsed as he swatted back questions about possible transactions.

"It helps the media, I understand," Smith said, "but it just doesn't help the process to be doing that publicly until deals are done, trades are made, and contracts are signed."


Source: StarTribune

Edited by CrouchingTonyHiddenPena, 04 December 2007 - 04:05 PM.


#320 bowiac


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:09 PM

I've yet to see a variant of this trade which doesn't make me upset. I'm going to predict the same is true of Theo, and that we're being led astray by some well orchestrated leaks by the Red Sox. They're not really players here - just driving up the price for when the Yankees jump back in.

I hope.

#321 Quintanariffic

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:10 PM

If the Angels had Santana this year the Sox very likely could have been bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

So Santana alone would have transformed a Sox sweep (with a cumulative score of 19-4) into an Angels victory? Do tell. This Santana guy must be able to play mutliple positions or start back to back games.

With a pitching rotation of Santana/Beckett/Matsuzaka/Buchholz the Sox may not need all that offense.

Not the point. At some level, you are giving up more than yhou are getting. The Sox would benefit by having Santana, but not at any price. You wouldn't do this deal if Minn asked for Beckett in addition to the prospects, so clearly you have a line in your head. Please stop implying otherwise. When they go to 5 for 1 with Kalish or Anderson or Bowden thrown in to the "known" 4 for 1 package, I get uneasy.

#322 Wingack


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:11 PM

Klapish is saying one of the packages involved Buchholz:

The Red Sox are said to have two offers on the table, one involving center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, and the other involving pitcher Clay Buchholz. The Twins are said to prefer a package that would net them two pitchers, though they still value Ellsbury highly.



#323 GreyisGone

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:13 PM

Klapish is saying one of the packages involved Buchholz:

Looks like Klapish confused Lester and Buchholz.

#324 anaxamandr


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:14 PM

That sounded odd to me. The sentence was phrased pretty much exactly as the pair of packages had been described all day but with Buchholz name in place of Lester's. I am inclined to believe (and I sincerely hope) that was a typo on Klapish's part. Time will tell, I suppose. Also, is Corsi some kind of news-bot or can someone vouch for his humanity?

#325 LahoudOrBillyC


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:14 PM

I believe that Klapisch made a simple error. As I said, these reports are coming so fast and there is some inevitable sloppiness.

#326 Philip Jeff Frye


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:21 PM

Calling Klap having a brain fart on that one.....

Or more likely just making something up. It was bad enough in the days when these guys had to write something for the next day's newspaper. Now with "blogs from the winter meetings" and talk radio, the pressure to make it look like you know what's going on must be tremendous. Honestly, I think we'd be better off to just ignore the Internet until an actual deal happens.

#327 Pumpsie


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:33 PM

Because of the addition of a 19 year old single A guy? Even though other reports are saying the Twins may be including a prospect of their own?

I don't know, seems like reading the Celts forum before they got Garnett. When you have the chance to add an impact player of this type you need to do it. Much of this board was wondering how the Yankees could have Ian Kennedy as a deal-breaker and now there's hand-wringing over a kid a year out of high school with 200 professional ABs?


Well, John Farrell is saying that Jon Lester is going to win 15 games next year. And I'll take HIS word on that over yours or anybody else's here. So, for about 5 starter wins, you're willing to give up the futures of Coco Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish plus pay $25M a year to Santana which may cost you Beckett in a few more years. The Garnett trade? This is sounding more and more to me, like the 1989 Herschel Walker trade where the Vikings gave away the farm which ended up building a Super Bowl team for the Cowboys. All the Vikings got was married to a very expensive Walker, and eventually weaker.

If the Yanks throw in Kennedy or Horne, or the Angels jump in and top it, you jump back quick and count your lucky stars here.

#328 DJnVa


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:36 PM

Well, John Farrell is saying that Jon Lester is going to win 15 games next year. And I'll take HIS word on that over yours or anybody else's here.



Come on Pumpsie, that makes no sense. I guess the retort would be if Theo makes the deal he knows more about prospects than anyone else here so we should take his word.

Honestly, Ryan Kalish? Really?

#329 Pumpsie


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:36 PM

What's he supposed to say? "I think he'll walk a guy an inning and be lucky to win 8?"


But he's not saying this publicly, Rip. He's saying this, according to the article, internally to the rest of Sox management. Totally different.

#330 ragnarok725

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:38 PM

out of those 4 prospects, the only one with a shot at being on the Red Sox 25 man roster this year is Lester. The immediate future of the other 3 are:

Masterston: 2008 in AAA, middle reliever for the Sox in 2009, maybe starter by 2010.
Lowrie: blocked entirely by Pedroia and Lugo

While I don't disagree with your overall point about the deal being worth it and the prospects having a relatively small impact on next season, I think it's very possible that Masterson and Lowrie would hit next year's 25 if they're still in the organization.

Right now, if Pedroia, Lugo, or Cora went down with an injury for any length of time Lowrie would be called on immediately and if it was Pedroia/Lugo would probably get pretty significant playing time. If he played out of his mind at AAA or in a brief stint with the big club and Lugo continues his downward spiral then it is conceivable he could be at SS by the end of next year in a similar way to what Ellsbury did this year (and he had never seen AAA before last year).

Masterson could be a relief option as early as the middle of next year. He is a groundball pitcher who will be 23 going into next year. With a good amount of early season success I would assume the team might see him out of the pen in August and maybe sooner if there are significant injuries or implosions.

Of course both of those scenarios assume they continue on their current trajectories, but saying they don't have a shot at being on the 25 isn't really accurate. Maybe not to start the year, but they both have significant potential to break it by the middle of the year and potentially play big roles.

#331 bsj


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:41 PM

Just posted in the news thread

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- The Angels, according to multiple sources, have decided to jump into the Johan Santana derby, scheduling a meeting with the Twins on Tuesday to discuss the southpaw starter who has had the Red Sox and Yankees embroiled in intense competition for his services at the Winter Meetings.


This has to be old I would imagine, as anything written recently would not characterize the Santana situation as the Red Sox and Yanks being embroiled.

I think that the Angels have called the Twins and the Twins have said they want Weaver, which I think is a non-starter.

#332 The Filthy One

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:44 PM

This has to be old I would imagine, as anything written recently would not characterize the Santana situation as the Red Sox and Yanks being embroiled.

I think that the Angels have called the Twins and the Twins have said they want Weaver, which I think is a non-starter.


This seems like a classic, "You're losing your negotiation with the Marlins, we're trying to get the Red Sox to kick a little more in, what do you say we say we're talking?" kind of thing.

#333 Wingack


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:45 PM

Just posted in the news thread
This has to be old I would imagine, as anything written recently would not characterize the Santana situation as the Red Sox and Yanks being embroiled.

I think that the Angels have called the Twins and the Twins have said they want Weaver, which I think is a non-starter.



I have to think, the Angels are hearing what the Red Sox are offering and thinking that can easliy be beaten with what they have. They have too many starters as it is and could give the Twins Saunders/Weaver or Saunders/Ervin in a deal for Santana, in addition to filling the Twins hole in CF with Willits and tossing in high ceiling prospects. If the Dodgers get Bedard I would not count out Moreno wanting to take the backpage away and really ponying up for Santana.

#334 SoxScout


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:00 PM

Public service announcement: Winter Meetings Special on ESPN2 now.

#335 Maalox


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:04 PM

Just posted in the news thread
This has to be old I would imagine, as anything written recently would not characterize the Santana situation as the Red Sox and Yanks being embroiled.

I think that the Angels have called the Twins and the Twins have said they want Weaver, which I think is a non-starter.

The Angels are a perennial AL West contender and the current favorite to win that division. They have a clear interest in the Sox not getting too good, or barring that paying the highest price possible for getting too good, entering the Santana race would be both wise and well-timed for them provided they have real interest in the player.

#336 bsj


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:05 PM

The Angels are a perennial AL West contender and the current favorite to win that division. They have a clear interest in the Sox not getting too good, or barring that paying the highest price possible for getting too good, entering the Santana race would be both wise and well-timed for them provided they have real interest in the player.


I understand that, and I do believe they have interest, I was merely stating that I had heard about 2 hours ago they were calling the Twins for a meeting and that the text from that particular article seemed to skew a bit old...

I'm sure the Angels are now players...but I think that Weaver is what it will take.

#337 Pumpsie


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:08 PM

I understand that, and I do believe they have interest, I was merely stating that I had heard about 2 hours ago they were calling the Twins for a meeting and that the text from that particular article seemed to skew a bit old...

I'm sure the Angels are now players...but I think that Weaver is what it will take.


Well, if the Angels offer Weaver, Wood, and Adenhart, they got him.

#338 LahoudOrBillyC


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:12 PM

Well, if the Angels offer Weaver, Wood, and Adenhart, they got him.

Even without Santana, the Twins needs position players. They might take this deal, but they shouldn't.

#339 86spike


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:23 PM

from th enews thread:

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.


so 'a center fielder' could be Coco or Jacoby... and it looks like Kalish replaced Lowrie (who I think we all knew the Twins might not be totally sold on as a starter this year).

#340 Drocca


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:23 PM

Well, if Will Carroll really broke this then I am very impressed. If not, it's going to be another huge hit for his reputation.

Edited by Drocca, 04 December 2007 - 05:23 PM.


#341 The Boomer

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:24 PM

Twins focus has been on the Sox, but the Angels are in now because they know they can't get Miguel Cabrera. Their package could be competitive.

Well, if the Angels offer Weaver, Wood, and Adenhart, they got him.


This makes me wonder if, with Giambi's $20 million coming off the books after next season, the Yankees aren't more interested in addressing their weakest lineup problem at firstbase by hording their prospects to go after Cabrera from the Marlins and a not quite peaked but potential ace pitcher like Bedard. Their offense is unapproachable already but could possibly be historic if young M. Cabrera is added to that spot. Likewise, they might be serious about staying out of the Santana sweepstakes by figuring that Haren or Bedard would then be more cost effective options. In other words, who can say that Steinjunior wasn't getting the Sox and Angels bid up on a single pitcher (to deplete their arguably better stable of prospects but more meager - but sometimes competitively bid- financial resources)? With their unlimited finances coupled with their even more competitive stable of prospects (once the Sox or Angels blow their wad of prospects and dollars on Santana), it's conceivable that they could end up with a trio of players like Miguel Cabrera, Rowand and Bedard. This is just one more reason for the Sox not to sink that much of their scarcer financial and other resources into Santana because, in the long run, Lester plus financial flexibility is probably better for the franchise. Viewed this way, there is arguably reason to hope that the scenario where the Yankees swoop in at the last minute to complete the Santana deal becomes reality.

I can speculate (with no factual foundation only gut feelings) as well as those baseball reporters in Nashville.

#342 Ananti


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:25 PM

What does "a centerfielder" mean? Isn't the entire holdup regarding Ellsbury versus Crisp? If they can't agree on that how can it be "all but done"?

#343 Dewskii93

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:27 PM

If Lowrie is not in the deal, I would assume it would have to be Ellsbury.

And if the Twins got Ellsbury as well as Lester, I would imagine some other small piece is coming the Sox way.

#344 GreyisGone

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:30 PM

If Lowrie is not in the deal, I would assume it would have to be Ellsbury.

And if the Twins got Ellsbury as well as Lester, I would imagine some other small piece is coming the Sox way.

I look at it as the Twins valuing Kalish higher than Lowrie, and thus wanting him in the deal. Replacing Crips with Ellsbury and Kalish is the Red Sox caving BIG BIG BIG time.

#345 DJnVa


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:30 PM

No, they are saying things like "that's what prospects are for", which would only imply that they think an 8 for 1 is acceptable. Turn your example phrase around.


No actually that's not what we're saying and to say we think there is no line is ridiculous. There's a difference between a 22 year old AAA prospect and 19 year old A prospect that's 3+ years away from the majors in a best-case scenario.

In a deal for a pitcher/player the caliber of Johan Santana *I* think it's stupid to get hung up on a someone like Ryan Kalish. The fact that he pounded the ball in his 150 ABs is great. It's what makes him desirable to the Twins. In other words, he's done his job. His great season in A ball allows the Sox to use him as a sweetener in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball.

#346 Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:31 PM

I can't decide if Carroll was in such a hurry to get back to the lobby that he just quickly threw that up on the web, as in it's-close-enough-for-now; of if he was very purposeful/specific with those words........?

#347 ragnarok725

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:37 PM

from th enews thread:
so 'a center fielder' could be Coco or Jacoby... and it looks like Kalish replaced Lowrie (who I think we all knew the Twins might not be totally sold on as a starter this year).

Ellsbury in the deal would seem to make Kalish redundant. Six years of Ellsbury and Kalish would be blocked for probably about 3 of them. Kalish as a potential future replacement for 3 years of Coco makes sense.

Maybe it comes down to Ellsbury vs. Lowrie + Coco. That's probably a hard one for the Twins.

#348 DJnVa


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:39 PM

I'll just repost what Smas wrote, because it makes the case as clearly as possible. I"m sorry if you are unable to grasp the simple logic:


Classy. But what does this have to do with me not valuing Kalish as high as you did? The price didn't go from 50 to 52 for me. It went from 50 to 50.5.

The point isn't that I don't have a line, it's that it hadn't been reached yet.

EDIT: And since new info has come out, it's moot anyway.

Edited by DJnVa, 04 December 2007 - 05:40 PM.


#349 hawaiirsn

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:48 PM

True but difficult.


It is oh so difficult. The prospect of having the top left-handed pitcher in the game paired with Beckett at the top of this rotation, and the cost to get him there has gotten everyone salivating, but that doesn't mean we have to resort to crazy blabber and off-based guesses about what is happening. All we can do is discuss what we know or can reasonably project to happen.

#350 Maalox


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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:58 PM

Please stop the bickering. Bickering is noise.

We're not even discussing Santana anymore. Perhaps until news hits there is nothing left to discuss? It may just be time to close this. If not, please prove me wrong.