924 replies to this topic

[marsrover21]

Charley Walters says the Red Sox are currently in the lead of the pack for Santana with a package of Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie, Jon Lester, and Justin Masterson. Although I would hate to see Lowrie go, I think this deal is very doable for the best pitcher in baseball. We would be ridiculously good if this happens.

Link

Hat tip to MLBTR.

[ridetheseal]

Can't get into that link without a username/pass. If that's all we'd be giving up for Santana, I'd jump for giddy joy.

[marsrover21]

Can't get into that link without a username/pass.

Seems to be working for me. Anyone else having this problem?

[ridetheseal]

Seems to be working for me. Anyone else having this problem?

Link brings me right to the log in registration page.

[Fox on Sox]

Charley Walters says the Red Sox are currently in the lead of the pack for Santana with a package of Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie, Jon Lester, and Justin Masterson. Although I would hate to see Lowrie go, I think this deal is very doable for the best pitcher in baseball. We would be ridiculously good if this happens.

Link

Hat tip to MLBTR.

According to Massarotti Sox now willing to include any one of Lester, Buchholz or Ellsbury...but not more than one.

http://www.bostonher...sports/red_sox/

[FunkySox]

If we can get Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz it's a no-brainer. I have trouble believing that no other team can beat that offer for the best pitcher in baseball.

[marsrover21]

If we can get Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz it's a no-brainer. I have trouble believing that no other team can beat that offer for the best pitcher in baseball.

I agree that I would prefer to get it done w/o including Ells/Buch. That would be a dream (even if Lowrie could turn into a Chuck Knoblauch type). But if we absolutely had to get rid of one of those two to get it done, I would prefer taking out Lester and Masterson and putting in Buchholz.

As for who could beat that deal, I don't see any other teams in the running able to. The Yanks could maybe if they give up Joba and Cano. The Mets could if they part w/ Jose (don't see that happening) and Heilman.

Edited by marsrover21, 29 November 2007 - 12:20 PM.

[marsrover21]

Link brings me right to the log in registration page.

Use this to log on then.

[ridetheseal]

Use this to log on then.

Thanks!

[Savin Hillbilly]

If we can get Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz it's a no-brainer.

Amen to that. Sounds way too good to be true.

[meghan]

I posted about this in the thread about keeping Ellsbury, Buch and Lester. It is a no-brainer if the Twins will actually go for it. But this could have been leaked to see if the Yankes will up their offer. And the Mets may be budging on Jose Reyes so that may factor in...

[Rainey Day]

You do realize that the source of this story is an intentional leak, probably directed towards the Yankees to prod them towards improving their offer (maybe Hughes instead of Kennedy).

When we hear that the Yankees have moved to the lead and are willing to part with Hughes, I would assume that leak is directed to the Red Sox to up their offer (Ellsbury or Buchholz).

Edited by Rainey Day, 29 November 2007 - 12:50 PM.

[FoulketoMinky]

Count me in as skeptical at best. If we give up one or the other (Buchholz or Ellsbury) but not both I see it as a good trade, but no way do we get away with trading neither. Dodgers and Yankees can easily top that offer.

Edited by FoulketoMinky, 29 November 2007 - 12:47 PM.

[marsrover21]

Count me in as skeptical at best. If we give up one or the other (Buchholz or Ellsbury) but not both I see it as a good trade, but no way do we get away with trading neither. Dodgers and Yankees can easily top that offer.

I would like you to please tell us how, realistically, the Dodgers/Yanks will top that.

[BrianFromWaltham]

It would be nice if this deal is real, but it looks like they can do better with the mets or yanks. The problem is there is no way to tell what a guy will do in the future. Even Santana could be a bust. It's a risk worth taking. For whatever reason he stays on the Twinkes and goes to boston or somewhere as a free agent, we would still lose 2 draft pics. As another guy said it would cost 10/15% more in salary to sign him at at that point. Lowrie being a SS helps us in that, we have other lower level guys who can also play the postion. We have Lugo for 3 more years anyways. The Pitching is hard to give up, but i'd give up tony armas and pavano in a heart beat for a pedro type of picther and Santana seems to have a much better track record of duralibity even though he is older. The hot Stove is heating up.

[opes]

I would like you to please tell us how, realistically, the Dodgers/Yanks will top that.

It has been reported that Colletti doesnt want to trade 3+ kids for Santana, or Cabrera. But heres how it could be done if they were crazy enough:
Kemp, Andy Laroche, and Clayton Kershaw.

Game over for RS and Yanks.

[mcq0823]

I don't think this is a bad deal for the twins. I think it bests the Yankees offer of Melky, Hughes and Austin Jackson

1. Lowrie is projected as a pretty good MLB SS. He has great plate discpline and could be a solid SS. They also need a SS with trading Bartlett the other day

2. Lester is a good prospect but I think he lacks command to be a top of the level starter. We all agree Clay has that chance

3. Coco is a proven major league player. He is the only sure thing that is being offered compared to the Yankees

4. Masterson has an excellent gb/fb ratio and could be a great reliever, good starter.

In all 3 good prospects for Twins, and Coco who could take the place of Tori Hunter.

(granted, if I was the twins I hold out for Ellsbury or Clay)

[MTKennedy]

I would prefer taking out Lester and Masterson and putting in Buchholz.

Why? Buchholz is a potential ace and probably at least a number two starter. Lester is a potential number 2 and probable middle of the rotation starter. Masterson I'm not sure about, but Buchholz is by far the best of that group. I'd give up both Lester and Masterson long before Buchholz.

[FoulketoMinky]

It has been reported that Colletti doesnt want to trade 3+ kids for Santana, or Cabrera. But heres how it could be done if they were crazy enough:
Kemp, Andy Laroche, and Clayton Kershaw.

Game over for RS and Yanks.

A Yankee package of Hughes, Melky and Jackson tops a Red Sox deal that doesn't include one of Jacoby or Buchholz. And that's a deal Hank makes everytime IMO.

[marsrover21]

Why? Buchholz is a potential ace and probably at least a number two starter. Lester is a potential number 2 and probable middle of the rotation starter. Masterson I'm not sure about, but Buchholz is by far the best of that group. I'd give up both Lester and Masterson long before Buchholz.

You took my quote out of context. I said if we absolutely had to give up one of Buch or Ells to get the deal done, that is what I would prefer.

[Savin Hillbilly]

It has been reported that Colletti doesnt want to trade 3+ kids for Santana, or Cabrera. But heres how it could be done if they were crazy enough:
Kemp, Andy Laroche, and Clayton Kershaw.

Game over for RS and Yanks.

Kemp seems like an odd fit for the Twins, though, now that they've dealt for Young. Similar kinds of players--Kemp has shown more power, but he's also a year older. Neither of them seems to have much strike zone judgment, and neither of them is really a centerfielder. Both have been called out for attitude problems. Also, Kershaw looks to be a couple of years away from the bigs. Don't the Twins want guys who can contribute now?

It's an impressive package--assuming the Dodgers would give all three up--but I'm not sure about "game over."

[marsrover21]

A Yankee package of Hughes, Melky and Jackson tops a Red Sox deal that doesn't include one of Jacoby or Buchholz. And that's a deal Hank makes everytime IMO.

I don't think so. Melky and Coco are a wash IMHO. Especially when you add in defense to the equation (and the Twins do). I don't understand why people are so high on Melky.

Hughes may be better than Lester or Masterson singularly, but he is coming off an injury and is still a prospect. With Lester they get a LH'er to replace (albeit, no one can replace him) Santana and a v. good prospect in return.

By Jackson, I assume you mean Austin Jackson. 1. Lowrie is a better fit b/c he could possibly take over a SS spot vacated by Bartlett, and I don't know why the Twins would want an A+ outfielder anyway. 2. At this point in their careers, Lowrie is better.

I definitely don't see that as a better deal. The only way I can think of the Yankees topping the above-referenced trade rumor is if they offer Cano/Joba.

[FoulketoMinky]

I don't think so. Melky and Coco are a wash IMHO. Especially when you add in defense to the equation (and the Twins do). I don't understand why people are so high on Melky.

Hughes may be better than Lester or Masterson singularly, but he is coming off an injury and is still a prospect. With Lester they get a LH'er to replace (albeit, no one can replace him) Santana and a v. good prospect in return.

By Jackson, I assume you mean Austin Jackson. 1. Lowrie is a better fit b/c he could possibly take over a SS spot vacated by Bartlett, and I don't know why the Twins would want an A+ outfielder anyway. 2. At this point in their careers, Lowrie is better.

I definitely don't see that as a better deal. The only way I can think of the Yankees topping the above-referenced trade rumor is if they offer Cano/Joba.

I don't disagree with you on the Melky/Coco thing, but I would guess the Twins do. You sacrifice some defense, but Melky isn't horrible and his bat is way better than Coco's. Hughes projects higher than Lester, and Masterson has a lot to prove yet. And the Twins aren't desperate for a SS, they got one back in the TB deal. He may not be stellar, but it's not the gaping hole at SS some are thinking it is.

And at the end of the day, if Hank is up against it would you bet against him dropping Jackson and Hughes and throwing Cano and Kennedy in the deal?

[marsrover21]

And at the end of the day, if Hank is up against it would you bet against him dropping Jackson and Hughes and throwing Cano and Kennedy in the deal?

No, no I wouldn't.

Just as a comparison, here is a little Yankee Rumormongering I picked up from The Buzz.

The Twins are asking the Yankees for a package of at least three young players that would include one of Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy -- plus center fielder Melky Cabrera, according to SI.com However, on Wednesday the Newark Star Ledger reported that the Yankees have made Chamberlain and second baseman Robinson Cano off limits

Edited by marsrover21, 29 November 2007 - 01:41 PM.

[Therdrail]

And at the end of the day, if Hank is up against it would you bet against him dropping Jackson and Hughes and throwing Cano and Kennedy in the deal?

It could be very telling.

This will be Hank's first year in command. He already seems like a loudmouthed egomaniac.
Loudmouthed egomaniacs don't like to lose or "rebuild".

It really wouldn't surprise me to see Hank go overboard to "make a splash" and "plant a flag" for the "new regime"

I would die laughing if it came out that the deal was done, but Johan canned it because he didn't want to play for the schpanklees.

[Al Zarilla]

It could be very telling.
I would die laughing if it came out that the deal was done, but Johan canned it because he didn't want to play for the schpanklees.

I don't know how a guy could do that. Santana has to make it a business decision, and a pro athlete can make as much or more money in NY as anywhere else. You're probably kidding though, right?

[SoxEquity]

My thought is that the MFY's have to make this deal, while the Sox do not. I'd be content to let the kids mature and have Clay and Lester in the rotation for a long time to come...The MFY's have a new Toilet to fill in '09, and as presently constructed have nobody that could go head to head with Beckett in the playoffs.

But surprisingly, it is being reported by Newark Star Ledger that Santana has said that he will only play for the MFY. The Twins were good to him, and I'm surprised he would weaken their bargaining power by stating this (if it is true).

Now my fear is that the MFY's don't have to package a killer deal to get him.

Also, its been stated before ... But Haren is a hell of a lot cheaper (and signed for the next few yrs) ,and wouldn't cost as much in return, and has a chance to be a front of the rotation type of guy.

Edited by SoxEquity, 29 November 2007 - 01:57 PM.

[YouLookAdopted]

I can see this offer having a very positive benefit to the Sox, even if it never goes through. First, it creates the impression that Coco could be on his way to Minnesota, putting some urgency in the Rangers' discussions with Theo. Second, it could force the Yankees to include Hughes instead of Kennedy in any future Santana offers.

[Savin Hillbilly]

You sacrifice some defense, but Melky isn't horrible and his bat is way better than Coco's.

What makes you say so? So far, his best season was as good as Coco's career average, and then last year he took a step backward from that. Even in the minors, he only got his OPS over .800 for two brief stints, 42 games of A ball and 31 at AAA. I don't know where all the love comes from. He looks like a career 4th outfielder to me. Good glove, not useless at the plate, but not starter-level either. Maybe he has some enormous offensive potential that's going to burst forth at some point--he's still plenty young enough for it--but I can't see where he's shown it yet, not for more than a month at a time, anyway.

[BG913]

No, no I wouldn't.

Just as a comparison, here is a little Yankee Rumormongering I picked up from The Buzz.

Interesting - since the trade last night Crisp may make more sense for the Twins - they really like that Pridie guy they picked up from the Rays, so Crisp is a good stopgap that keeps them competitive (especially with an outfield where LF and RF may be defensively suspect). Remember, Cuddyer came up as a 3B...so they could move him back to the infield if they had to.

But, their biggest need right now is an infield bat (in addition to arms that can "replace" Johan) - assuming Young basically replaces Hunter's production. My guess is the Twins floated the Lowrie rumor to get the Yanks to consider making Cano "touchable"...

Remember, the Twins aren't the Royals - they're not looking to jack every high priced contract - they just can't pay $25M/year for a pitcher. Cano's up for a decent payday in 08 since he's arb eligible, but that may not be a huge obstacle. And, they're not looking to lose 100 games - this is a team that wants to be competitive - they're going to want players that can produce today.

[FoulketoMinky]

What makes you say so? So far, his best season was as good as Coco's career average, and then last year he took a step backward from that. Even in the minors, he only got his OPS over .800 for two brief stints, 42 games of A ball and 31 at AAA. I don't know where all the love comes from. He looks like a career 4th outfielder to me. Good glove, not useless at the plate, but not starter-level either. Maybe he has some enormous offensive potential that's going to burst forth at some point--he's still plenty young enough for it--but I can't see where he's shown it yet, not for more than a month at a time, anyway.

I say it for two reasons. One, it seems to be the common conception, and two, I think it's somewhat true. I think if you look at the way Coco's career numbers are trending it lends credence to the argument. When I look at Melky's 2007, I see a guy who got off to a bad start, found his groove and then got tired. If he works a little on conditioning I think he will consistenly be a better offensive player than Coco.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not the President of the SOSH Melky Cabrera fanclub. All I'm saying is in this situation I believe that Melky has a higher value to the Twins than Coco.

EDIT: spelling, of course.

Edited by FoulketoMinky, 29 November 2007 - 02:16 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

My guess is the Twins floated the Lowrie rumor to get the Yanks to consider making Cano "touchable"...

The thing is, though, we can afford to trade Lowrie--in fact we *need* to trade Lowrie, much as I hate to say it--and the Yankees really can't afford to trade Cano, I don't think. Who's their '08 2B if they trade him?

This is fun.

[Therdrail]

I don't know how a guy could do that. Santana has to make it a business decision, and a pro athlete can make as much or more money in NY as anywhere else. You're probably kidding though, right?

No, not a joke.

Clearly there'a a HUGE difference between being a free agent and having the ability to negotiate with ANY team, and being essentially "forced" to negotiate with only one team.
The fact that he would specifically refuse to go to the schpanklees is just Sox fan humor.

But businesswise, since you brought it up, the smartest move (assuming that he doesn't get hurt in 08)
would be to refuse a trade, or refuse the extension even if you waive the No trade, and then go on the open market next year.

There's lots of teams out there desperate for a true ace, and you see more and more teams spending more and more money.
I bet we all would be surprised at just who is courting Johan, and for just how much if he goes on the open market next winter.

[RedSoxinATL]

I say it for two reasons. One, it seems to be the common conception, and two, I think it's somewhat true. I think if you look at the way Coco's career numbers are trending it lends credence to the argument. When I look at Melky's 2007, I see a guy who got off to a bad start, found his groove and then got tired. If he works a little on conditioning I think he will consistenly be a better offensive player than Coco.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not the President of the SOSH Melky Cabrera fanclub. All I'm saying is in this situation I believe that Melky has a higher value to the Twins than Coco.

EDIT: spelling, of course.

Count me as also being skeptical on denoting Melky as having a much better bat than Coco. Career statistics do not reflect this in any way. Not to mention, so far during Melky's young career he has benefited by being surrounded by arguably the best offensive lineup ever. Obviously I may be a biased fan, but I do not see how Melky > Coco offensively.

[January]

I say it for two reasons. One, it seems to be the common conception, and two, I think it's somewhat true. I think if you look at the way Coco's career numbers are trending it lends credence to the argument. When I look at Melky's 2007, I see a guy who got off to a bad start, found his groove and then got tired. If he works a little on conditioning I think he will consistenly be a better offensive player than Coco.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not the President of the SOSH Melky Cabrera fanclub. All I'm saying is in this situation I believe that Melky has a higher value to the Twins than Coco.

EDIT: spelling, of course.

If your gonna believe Melky 'got tired'(and isn't this his second year in the majors? I'd be darn surprised in Dice-K and Oki get tired again). Anyone can be good for short stretches. If your going that way, we should be able to trade Ellsbury+change for him, based on ELJE's September where he was like Manny and Coco combined. Coco was good for two years. The only value I can see Melky having is that he is cheap. Ellsbury seems to be the only actually good center fielder on the table.

[Therdrail]

Also, its been stated before ... But Haren is a hell of a lot cheaper (and signed for the next few yrs) ,and wouldn't cost as much in return, and has a chance to be a front of the rotation type of guy.

I'm also on the "let the yankees pay $20+Mil for Johan, he of the 1-4 postseason record" boat.
Haren at a lower cost, who is cost controlled for 3 years, looks pretty damn good to me.

Trade Coco(and maybe another player(prospect?) for some good young cost controlled pitching to then flip in a trade for Haren

Hell, how about let the Yankees get Santana while including Hughes, then trade Cocoa++ in a deal for Hughes.....he he he(evil laugh)

Edited by Therdrail, 29 November 2007 - 02:32 PM.

[franklgl]

If we can get Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz it's a no-brainer. I have trouble believing that no other team can beat that offer for the best pitcher in baseball.

The best pitcher in baseball...who will require a monster contract after next year, right? That's the biggest reason I would be hesitant to give up major pieces (Ells, Buchholz) for Santana. I would not be surprised if the Twins hang on to him until the trade deadline when you KNOW some desperate team will go nuts and give up the farm for a few months and a hope of resigning this guy.

[ThreeRunBomb]

The thing is, though, we can afford to trade Lowrie--in fact we *need* to trade Lowrie, much as I hate to say it--and the Yankees really can't afford to trade Cano, I don't think. Who's their '08 2B if they trade him?

This is fun.

Brendan Harris (and the Twins find someone for SS - Cintron, perhaps).

[Kevin Youkulele]

The best pitcher in baseball...who will require a monster contract after next year, right? That's the biggest reason I would be hesitant to give up major pieces (Ells, Buchholz) for Santana. I would not be surprised if the Twins hang on to him until the trade deadline when you KNOW some desperate team will go nuts and give up the farm for a few months and a hope of resigning this guy.

However the Twins will have their backs against the wall in that scenario: they have to trade him if they want anything more than draft picks in return, and if he won't sign for less than $120M that takes a lot of teams right out of negotiations, as I don't think the package would be as good as what they can get now if it's only for a 2 month rental. He'd probably veto a trade without an extension anyway. If the Sox are cruising into the postseason and Ellsbury, Lester, and Buchholz are all contributing, then they're probably not interested. Who else besides the Yankees could add payroll midseason like that? The Twins may not want to count on their ability to make the Yankees bid against themselves, as much as that has happened in the past. I think he gets traded soon.

[Pork Fried Jim Rice]

I'm also on the "let the yankees pay $20+Mil for Johan, he of the 1-4 postseason record" boat.

Seems like an incredibly stupid boat to me.

He has 5 career playoff starts.
4 IPs, 3 H, 2BB, 0 Runs
3.2 IPs, 6 H, 1BB, 6 Runs
7 IP, 9 H, 1 BB, 0 Runs
5 IPs, 5 H, 3 BBs, 1 Run (3 days rest)
8 IP, 5Hs, 1 BB, 2 Runs

Looks like one bad start to me, other than that 24 IP with 3 Runs given up = 1.125 ERA. Though it's an incredibly small sample size, which is why it's stupid in the first place.

Edited by Pork Fried Jim Rice, 29 November 2007 - 02:41 PM.

[January]

I'm also on the "let the yankees pay $20+Mil for Johan, he of the 1-4 postseason record" boat.
Haren at a lower cost, who is cost controlled for 3 years, looks pretty damn good to me.

Not me. I think there is a decent chance that one of Buchholz or Lester be as good as Haren. Now, one of them being as good as Santana is highly unlikely.
Johan's post-season record is pretty good. He had a few bad games as a rookie reliever. And he was playing for the twins, so his W/L record isn't great.


Given Haren's low cost, I don't think there would be that much of a cost drop off to get him, despite the fair distance in ability. He also plays in pitchers park in a division of pitchers parks(except Texas), that also lacks offense(again, except texas). The A's also have much less "need" to trade him. BB is probably hoping that a team that loses on Santana will get suckered into making a big offer for Haren. Haren would also be more appealing to some teams due to his low cost. The Braves would be a good fit, but I don't think they have the talent to swing it.

Edited by January, 29 November 2007 - 02:56 PM.

[njingles3]

I'm also on the "let the yankees pay $20+Mil for Johan, he of the 1-4 postseason record" boat.
Haren at a lower cost, who is cost controlled for 3 years, looks pretty damn good to me.

Trade Coco(and maybe another player(prospect?) for some good young cost controlled pitching to then flip in a trade for Haren

Hell, how about let the Yankees get Santana while including Hughes, then trade Cocoa++ in a deal for Hughes.....he he he(evil laugh)

Haren could be almost as expensive in prospects because of the fact that he is cost-controlled. The only reason we can legitimately talk about not including more than one of Lester/Ellsbury/Buchholz in a Santana deal is the fact that he's about to cost $20 mil a year. To trade for a young, cost-controlled ace it would probably take a package somewhere in the ballpark of what it'll take to get Santana.

edit: January beat me to it.

Edited by njingles3, 29 November 2007 - 02:44 PM.

[BG913]

Brendan Harris (and the Twins find someone for SS - Cintron, perhaps).

In case he meant the Yankees - in which case the answer is Wilson Betemit for now...Twins can have Harris and Punto in the middle of the infield if they're not serious about winning the AL Central....Punto's just not a good enough hitter to play everyday (and especially not at 3B like he did last year).

If Cano's untouchable I'm pretty sure that means the Yanks are gonna have to pony up something good on top of Hughes and Melky - either Kennedy, or Tabata, or both...

Oh, Santana's post-season record? On teams that were basically .500 teams without him (278-259 in non-Johan decisions, 70-32 in Johan decisions)? Really? Only reason Santana is 1-4 instead of 0-0 in playoff starts is, well, Santana...those Twin teams just haven't been that good.

Listening to WFAN right now...some journalist guy who sounds like he knows something (but I have no idea who he is)...Ellsbury is the sticking point right now - Twins are apparently holding out for him and Lester (have accepted they aren't getting Buchholz)...apparently the Yanks are balking at Hughes (!) - trying to pull this off with Kennedy, Cabrera and a couple of tier 2s guys (Jackson, etc..). As are trying to fleece the Mets for Haren...

If I'm the Twins I have no idea why the Yankees offer looks better...

[iheartpetey]

From the main board Santana thread... Heyman on the FAN has essentially indicated that it's come down to whether or not the Sox will include Ellsbury with Lester. If we do there's a deal; if not there isn't.

No offense... but we're talking about a guy who was very mediocre in AAA, hit well in the lower levels but was alwas older than most in his league, and we've got a guy wh started in center field for us who's a very valuable player (and even if Coco's not ideal, there's still free agent CFers out there, if the Sox would be willing to pay them while also paying Santana). Santana's worth Ellsbury.

[njingles3]

Any deal for Santana in which we keep our #1 pitching prospect is a deal I would do any day of the week. Losing Ellsbury would hurt but it wouldn't leave much of a void. Coco was the starting CF all season on the team that won the most games in MLB. In the end I think the FO should think long and hard about putting JE in the deal.

Beckett
Santana
DiceK
Schilling
Buchholz

Better rotation + same lineup as most of last season = better team.

[uk_sox_fan]

I agree with these last two posts. Too many people lose sight of the fact that Santana is simply unaffordable for the vast majority of teams including the Twins. That same cost diminishes his value for the teams that can afford him. A Danny Haren or an Eric Bedard, while far less talented, is attractive to potentially any team and a key piece for a small market team's chances to make a run at a title. Therefore the cost demanded by the A's and O's should be almost as high.

The thing about Santana though is that he has established himself as a true special player that can dominate year in, year out. Maybe he's not Pedro in his prime but I don't believe we'll ever see that again. He can be the next best thing.

Basically we can afford to pay him (Clement's contract rolling off helps) and acquiring him significantly upgrades a team that was clearly the best in baseball last year. The rotation would be set for the next 3 - 4 years at least. I really hope they go all out to make this happen.

I would try to hold on to Buchholz but realistically I think you've got to give them Ellsbury + Lester to make this happen.

[Pork Fried Jim Rice]

Any deal for Santana in which we keep our #1 pitching prospect is a deal I would do any day of the week. Losing Ellsbury would hurt but it wouldn't leave much of a void. Coco was the starting CF all season on the team that won the most games in MLB. In the end I think the FO should think long and hard about putting JE in the deal.

Beckett
Santana
DiceK
Schilling
Buchholz

Better rotation + same lineup as most of last season = better team.

I would absolutely do a deal of Ellsbury and Lester. If I were doing that I would probably make the twins drop Masterson out of the deal and go with Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie with possibly a lower prospect if they demanded more. The Sox have more than enough money to afford Santana as they could have paid 30M for 6 or 7 years of A-rod.

I'd love a team with:
Santana
Beckett
Schilling
DiceK
Buchholz
Wake (Pen)

Pedroia
Youk
Ortiz
Manny
Lowell
Drew
Tek
Crisp
Lugo

Papelbon
Okajima
DelCarmen

That's a great team right there. Far better than any team in the league. I have absolute faith that Drew will be the player we signed based on the AL adjustment and lack of problems with his newborn. I think that Lugo will be closer to his career average. The only two players I really expect a drop from are Lowell (no way he can match his eyar last year) and Tek (just not getting younger, this is our next big necessary replacement.)

[moondog80]

If it comes down to Ellsbury/Lester vs Hughes/Cabrera, what's the better package? Ellsbury's two fewer years of service time is the difference, right?

Edited by moondog80, 29 November 2007 - 03:11 PM.

[iheartpetey]

I agree with these last two posts. Too many people lose sight of the fact that Santana is simply unaffordable for the vast majority of teams including the Twins. That same cost diminishes his value for the teams that can afford him. A Danny Haren or an Eric Bedard, while far less talented, is attractive to potentially any team and a key piece for a small market team's chances to make a run at a title. Therefore the cost demanded by the A's and O's should be almost as high.

The thing about Santana though is that he has established himself as a true special player that can dominate year in, year out. Maybe he's not Pedro in his prime but I don't believe we'll ever see that again. He can be the next best thing.

Basically we can afford to pay him (Clement's contract rolling off helps) and acquiring him significantly upgrades a team that was clearly the best in baseball last year. The rotation would be set for the next 3 - 4 years at least. I really hope they go all out to make this happen.

I would try to hold on to Buchholz but realistically I think you've got to give them Ellsbury + Lester to make this happen.

To add one other thing to the financial cost aspect: Next year it's very possible that Manny and Schilling both come off the books as well; that would more than likely cover the per year salary of Santana with some money left over (and with revenues skyrocketing, I'm assuming even the Sox have more to spend now than they did in the past few years, and will project to have more going forward).

If it comes down to Ellsbury/Lester vs Hughes/Cabrera, what's the better package? Ellsbury's two fewer years of service time is the difference, right?

It all depends on what the Twins value, unfortunately, so it's hard to tell. Ellsbury is more highly valued on the market than Cabrera by I believe a fairly high amount, but you can say the same about Hughes over Lester. Overall... I'd guess that you're right; there's enough people who think Lester's a #2 to make the gap between those two smaller than between Melky and Ellsbury.

Edited by iheartpetey, 29 November 2007 - 03:14 PM.

[patty o'droia]

No offense... but we're talking about a guy who was very mediocre in AAA, hit well in the lower levels but was alwas older than most in his league, and we've got a guy wh started in center field for us who's a very valuable player (and even if Coco's not ideal, there's still free agent CFers out there, if the Sox would be willing to pay them while also paying Santana). Santana's worth Ellsbury.

ellsbury is better than you give him credit for, and when you look at his 07 season as a whole, not only is impressive, but it isnt an outlier when compared to his career previous to 07. ellsbury is a guy who is going to with his speed, be a force on the basepaths. He also has the potential to develop into a superb centerfielder, with tons of range. he is also capable of hitting 300+ with on base skills and some gap power. he basically has the upside of ichiro, which is pretty good