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Lowell Signed for 3 Years


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#101 irinmike

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 05:34 PM

Lord have mercy.....................!

I understand/appreciate/respect Lowell for wanting to make millions more. I am all for it. Go for it Mike. Re-read my post. I have no problem with the free enterprise system!!!!!!!!!!! Do you understand me? Money is good. The free-enterprise system rules...etc. etc. I was not offended by Damon taking the best deal and I will not be offended if Lowell takes the best deal.

But, the 20 million Lowell has already banked is enough to care for his family--don't ya think? Please don't make the argument that ..."he's got to make his killing NOW to set himself and his family up for the rest of their lives." That argument is just plain ignorant and naive.

To say it again, if Mike Lowell has banked 20 million thus far in his career and will undoubtedly make a minimum of another 15-20 million after taxes with the very worst deal on the table, then he has "nearly 30-40 million dollars" in his hip pocket.

A man with 30-40 million really doesn't have to worry about the financial security of "HIS FAMILY". He and every member of his family are set up for the rest of their lives!

Mike Lowell can take a crap deal or a great deal. The argument that he should take the better deal IN ORDER TO TAKE CARE OF HIS FAMILY is a bogus argument.


I agree with you completely. The statement I hate to hear is, "well its not about the money". We all know what its about.

#102 DJnVa


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Posted 09 November 2007 - 05:37 PM

Makes more sense as an offer the 3x15 is accompanied by an option for a fourth year that vests with a good performance in the 3rd year.


You can't have options based on performance, only playing time.

#103 CoRP

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 06:19 PM

For what it's worth (not much now) I never said it was about "financial security" for his family, obviously he has that. I said it was about "setting up his family" for the rest of their lives. It may seem like semantics but my intent was not to imply that the Lowell family is going to go hungry. Nor would I have expected any reasonably rational person to interpret it that way. I think Drek pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject but since I am a moron I was unable to articulate my thoughts as well as he.

It fascinates me how the topic of salaries and what they can or cannot buy (or should or should not buy) brings out such vitriol in people on this board and elsewhere.

#104 smastroyin


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Posted 09 November 2007 - 06:25 PM

OK I'm seriously not kidding. The next person who argues about the "support his family" line gets a vacation in the sandbox. CoRP for what it's worth I thought your statement was clear and that any rational human being could interpret that correctly. However it is also clear that people would rather argue than be rational. This is a discussion board and yeah we discuss plenty of banal and idiotic things. However, in this case, the argument is wasting everyone's time and noone can honestly say they are learning anything. Beyond that this is news that people are interested in and the story is not finished so it's not a thread people can just ignore. So let's all just drop it.

Really, I'm seriously not kidding.

#105 SoxScout


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Posted 09 November 2007 - 10:54 PM

Interesting to see this in the Star Trib: Redmond sees buddy Lowell staying in Boston

Twins catcher Mike Redmond is a close friend of Mike Lowell's from their days with the Marlins, and the two buddies will have a weeklong get-together with their families in January at Redmond's home in Spokane, Wash.

Lowell is one of the top third basemen on the free-agent market, but as much as Redmond would like to recruit him to Minnesota, he's keeping his expectations in check.

Lowell was named Most Valuable Player of the World Series for Boston after batting .324 with 21 home runs and 120 RBI during the season.

The Red Sox reportedly have offered a three-year contract worth between $12 million and $15 million per season.

Lowell, who turns 34 in February, is believed to be seeking a four-year deal, which could be a sticking point for the Red Sox. But it's a good bet the sides will resolve this before other teams can make formal offers Tuesday.

"I would be surprised if they got rid of Mikey because of all the intangibles he brings," Redmond said. "Would he be a great fit for our team? Of course he would. But the money is going to be up there with what Torii [Hunter]gets."

The Twins had internal discussions about trading for Lowell when he struggled in recent years, though nothing came of it. Redmond said he was thrilled watching Lowell flourish in Boston this season.

"Not just because he's my buddy," Redmond said. "I'm so proud of him because three years ago people were like, 'This guy's done.' And I'm thinking, 'No way.' "



#106 Wade Boggs Hair

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 11:58 PM

Interesting to see this in the Star Trib: Redmond sees buddy Lowell staying in Boston


It doesn't seem like Redmond is speaking based on any inside information, or that he's even talked to Lowell recently. The article's author tries to imply that by setting up that Redmond and Lowell are close, but the quote just looks like Redmond is opining that Lowell will stay in Boston because he had a good year, and that Minnesota couldn't afford him. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it doesn't seem like Redmond actually knows more about Lowell's intent than any of us do.

Edited by Wade Boggs Hair, 09 November 2007 - 11:58 PM.


#107 Ananti


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:14 AM

Agreed, and from what Redmond said, "I would be surprised if they got rid of Mikey because of all the intangibles he brings", it doesn't seem he is saying anything about Lowell, he's saying that he expects Boston to do whatever it takes to keep Lowell, not that Lowell will choose to stay in Boston.

#108 Green Monster

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 07:19 AM

Source: http://www.boston.co...take_a_day_off/

Negotiations between the Red Sox and free agent third baseman Mike Lowell took a hiatus yesterday, but should resume over the weekend, according to general manager Theo Epstein.

Lowell and the Sox appear to be within striking distance of an agreement, the major issue remaining three years vs. four. The Sox are willing to go for a three-year deal, a major step for them; Lowell's side believes four years (at approximately $56 million) is attainable in the open market.

Epstein, who is back in Boston after this week's general managers' meetings in Orlando, Fla., characterized yesterday as quiet. He said he exchanged messages with the Levinson brothers, Lowell's agents, and they agreed to keep talking this weekend. Lowell can begin negotiating with other teams starting Tuesday.


Edited by Green Monster, 10 November 2007 - 07:20 AM.


#109 Marbleheader


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:02 AM

OK, so the Sox make a 'firm' yet 'strong' offer that appears to be one year and $16M short of what Lowell is looking for. The sides don't talk at all yesterday, and he can listen to offers from other clubs in just a couple of days. How does Cafardo draw the conclusion that they are 'within striking distance'?

#110 dcmissle


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:26 AM

OK, so the Sox make a 'firm' yet 'strong' offer that appears to be one year and $16M short of what Lowell is looking for. The sides don't talk at all yesterday, and he can listen to offers from other clubs in just a couple of days. How does Cafardo draw the conclusion that they are 'within striking distance'?



In part because they are planning to spend valuable weekend time negotiating, I suppose. 3x 15 would come close to getting something done, I'm guessing.

#111 DieHard3


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:47 AM

In part because they are planning to spend valuable weekend time negotiating, I suppose. 3x 15 would come close to getting something done, I'm guessing.


Is 3X$15 really better than 4x$12? I don't have my annuity tables handy, but I'm guessing in PV terms, that's about equal.

Even without discounting, you could look at 4x$12 as being equal to 3-$15 with a 4th year buyout of $3 million.

Even if you make it 3x$14 (which puts you $14 million below their open market figure), you're still saying you don't think Lowell's going to be worth at least 6 million in the 4th year.

Edited by DieHard3, 10 November 2007 - 08:52 AM.


#112 wade boggs chicken dinner


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:50 AM

Count me as one who is pessimistic about Lowell. On one hand, Theo is right, and the downside risk of a four-year deal is too high for any team that values such things. However, Lowell's side is also right - that he surely would get a four-year deal on the open market and perhaps even a five.

I don't think it's just about the $ for Lowell, but when he has agents in his ear saying things like "Thirty million dollars" and "extra job security" and "Look what [fill in blank here] got/is making" (etc.) it would take an incredibly resolute person to turn it down.

I mean no matter how much we may love our jobs and our employers and the people we work with - how much would it take for us to jump ship? 10 grand? 50?

#113 OCD SS


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:49 AM

Is 3X$15 really better than 4x$12? I don't have my annuity tables handy, but I'm guessing in PV terms, that's about equal.


I think you're making a very large assumption about the terms being discussed. It's more likely that the agenda from Lowell's camp is "OK, now that we have the annual salary to (around) $14M, let's add that 4th year and we're all set." They're not going to take less $ per for 4 years so that the guaranteed money is equal; they want the 4th year to be a significant increase to the total value of the contract.

#114 Arock78

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:05 AM

Am I naive to think that a 4th-year vesting option makes good sense here? Obviously, it would have to be based on playing time, so would the Sox be worried that Lowell will stay healthy but steadily decline in performance?

I have no way to back this up, but Lowell seems like the kind of player who'll hold up better after the age of 32 than the average player. Anyone else have this impression?

#115 irinmike

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:14 AM

I have no idea if Lowell will hold up for three or four more years. However I do know that whatever he settles for with the RS he will earn. Between the Lowell agents and the RS front office a compromise will occur and he will resign. Why? Because the RS want him here and he wants to be here.

#116 Average Reds


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:22 AM

Let's assume that Lowell wants to stay in Boston. Let's assume that he's even told his agents that they are to conclude an agreement with the Red Sox and nobody else, even if it means leaving money on the table. Even in that extremely unlikely scenario, why on earth would they finalize an agreement without understanding exactly how much Lowell is worth in the open market and using that information to try and get even more out of the Red Sox? It just doesn't make sense.

Unless my memory is off, this is exactly what Varitek did in 2004. He got Boras to find out what the market would bear and he used the information to get a max contract out of the Sox. It looks like Lowell wants to do the same thing in order to squeeze a fourth year out of Theo. Or, it may be that he just wants to test the market and wants to go where the money is. Regardless, I can't for the life of me understand why he would make his decision without knowing exactly what he is worth.

I think we all got spoiled by the decision Schilling made without realizing that he made it for his reasons in the context of a single year. It also helps to understand that when you factor all of the other variables into Schilling's decision - cost of uprooting his family for a single year, the intangible value of both ending his career in the place where he has had the biggest impact and of torturing CHB for another year, etc. - Schilling really didn't leave that much on the table. Certainly not the kind of money Lowell would be leaving on the table.

The fanboy in me would love to see Lowell strike a deal right now (on terms that I think are reasonable, of course :rolling: ) and get it over with. But I can't kill him for taking his time and I certainly can't conclude anything from the fact that he hasn't finalized a deal yet.

If I were to speculate, I'd guess that he's going to do what Tek did and sign in a week or two for more money than the Sox want to give him over 4 years. We'll all gnash out teeth over it, but if this comes to pass, I will be very happy to overpay Lowell for the last 2 years of the deal rather than massively overpay A-Rod for the last 6 of his contract. And I'll keep in mind that it isn't my money anyway.

Edit: spelling

Edited by Average Reds, 10 November 2007 - 10:23 AM.


#117 LoweTek

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:01 AM

It doesn't seem like Redmond is speaking based on any inside information, or that he's even talked to Lowell recently. The article's author tries to imply that by setting up that Redmond and Lowell are close, but the quote just looks like Redmond is opining that Lowell will stay in Boston because he had a good year, and that Minnesota couldn't afford him. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it doesn't seem like Redmond actually knows more about Lowell's intent than any of us do.

If he knew he wouldn't tell the reporter. He said exactly what I would expect him to say if he knew exactly what was going to happen and had spoken to Lowell within an hour of the interview.

I think we see an announcement of Lowell's remaining in Boston by the end of the weekend. My guess: 4/12.

#118 Maalox


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:19 AM

I think you're making a very large assumption about the terms being discussed. It's more likely that the agenda from Lowell's camp is "OK, now that we have the annual salary to (around) $14M, let's add that 4th year and we're all set." They're not going to take less $ per for 4 years so that the guaranteed money is equal; they want the 4th year to be a significant increase to the total value of the contract.

Exactly. And while Lowell's agents are certainly going to say to the Sox, "we'd be open to 4/48 instead of 3/45," or whatever figures, that's really just a pretext for getting more money or more years out of some other team, and then maybe from the Sox in turn. "The Sox are giving us 4/48, and he wants to stay there, so you'd have to give us 4/60." Or "the Sox are giving us 3/45, and he wants to stay there, so you'd have to give us 4/60." To do that, Lowell has to take the Sox' offer out on the open market. No deal by Monday means nothing except that the Sox won't get Lowell at their first offer, which everyone knew was going to be the case anyway.

The Sox, meanwhile, knowing that what Lowell really wants is something like 4/60, and knowing that he'll take their offer to the market, have little incentive to give ground before the market opens. If the Sox have claimed that this first offer is "firm," it's in an attempt to start Monday's bidding war at the lowest reasonable level they can. Maybe something changes over the weekend: a rumor comes out that Lowell's name is on the Mitchell list; a trade happens that takes one of Lowell's suitors out of the market for a third baseman. If you know that the parties are already close and want to strike a deal, then it makes sense to get something done. But if you don't know that then you don't bid against yourself.

Meanwhile, the Levinsons know that the Red Sox have a capacity to pay which is greater than their willingness to pay, and which surpasses the capacity of most of Lowell's other suitors. They know the Sox are valuable to Lowell even if he doesn't sign a deal with them, because what they are willing to pay can be used to squeeze a little more money out of teams which, while not necessarily as rich, are more willing to give Lowell what he wants.

As Red Averages notes, Lowell is going to be overpaid. The open questions are 1) how much? and 2) by whom?

#119 DieHard3


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:28 AM

I think you're making a very large assumption about the terms being discussed. It's more likely that the agenda from Lowell's camp is "OK, now that we have the annual salary to (around) $14M, let's add that 4th year and we're all set." They're not going to take less $ per for 4 years so that the guaranteed money is equal; they want the 4th year to be a significant increase to the total value of the contract.


I'm assuming the current offer is 3-$36 and responding to people in this thread who were talking about going to 3-$45 because a fourth year is too risky. I'm not assuming anything. Of course once the Sox make an offer of 3-$45 the terms of the negotiations change; hopefully they haven't done that yet.

#120 OCD SS


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:01 PM

I'm assuming the current offer is 3-$36 and responding to people in this thread who were talking about going to 3-$45 because a fourth year is too risky. I'm not assuming anything. Of course once the Sox make an offer of 3-$45 the terms of the negotiations change; hopefully they haven't done that yet.


Sorry, I was quoting your post to address that direction of discussion in the thread as a whole; your post was simply the most suscinct and quoteable version I could use as an intro. I wasn't trying to ascribe a position to you that you don't hold; I was using "you" to address everyone who thinks that the guaranteed $ will be very similar, and that the Sox can just fudge the variables (years x $) to make it work.

#121 8 and 9 in Left

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:18 PM

Let's assume that Lowell wants to stay in Boston. Let's assume that he's even told his agents that they are to conclude an agreement with the Red Sox and nobody else, even if it means leaving money on the table. Even in that extremely unlikely scenario, why on earth would they finalize an agreement without understanding exactly how much Lowell is worth in the open market and using that information to try and get even more out of the Red Sox? It just doesn't make sense.

Unless my memory is off, this is exactly what Varitek did in 2004. He got Boras to find out what the market would bear and he used the information to get a max contract out of the Sox. It looks like Lowell wants to do the same thing in order to squeeze a fourth year out of Theo. Or, it may be that he just wants to test the market and wants to go where the money is. Regardless, I can't for the life of me understand why he would make his decision without knowing exactly what he is worth.

This makes sense, but it assumes that the Sox will "match" (whatever that may mean) whatever the broader market offers, and I'm a whole lot less certain of that than you seem to be. Rather, I think it far more likely that the Sox will go as far as they're willing to go in order to keep him off the market. But if they aren't able to do that, then I suspect they'll drop out. More to the point, I think the Yankees would be willing to offer something the Sox aren't, and that would be that. To me, the only question is whether the Yankees will have that chance.

#122 Harry Hooper


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:35 PM

The fact that the front office has abandoned Theo's preferred "run silent, run deep" mode on the Lowell negotiations can only be seen as a negative indicator. It sure looks like PR cover to get in front of Lowell's impending departure from Boston. Reports in the national press about how Lowell is likely to re-sign with the Sox are probably just behind the curve on where the negotiations have gone.

Having said that, I won't be surprised if a deal is reached this weekend. I do think it's less likely now than it looked a week ago.

#123 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:37 PM

As I understand the reports the best offer the Sox may have made is 3X15 and the Levinsons' believe that the open market will yield a 4X14 offer. IMO, the 45 v 56 difference (11 million) is significant. Didn't Damon leave over a total difference of 13 million?

Based on what I am hearing it seems like Mike Lowell is fairly intent on maximizing his revenue and like Damon will choose the better offer. Consider me skeptical that the Sox will resign Lowell unless the market is not as generous as the Levinsons' and many of us predict.

From what I have seen there are the Schillings, Arroyos and Wakefields of the world who communicate early on that they will take less money to get a deal done and the Damons and Pedros of the world who 'would like to stay in Boston', but make it very clear that they will be hard pressed not top take the best offer. Right now the 'noise' I have heard puts Lowell in this second category.

As usual when I like a ball player and want him to stay I hope that either the team will increase its price or the player will reduce his demands. While that generally doesn't happen, I will keep my fingers crossed that something gets worked out.

#124 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:49 PM

Dustin Pedroia: "I hope Mike is back. He’s my favorite teammate of all time. I’m pretty confident that something is going to get done....He’s been so great to me and my wife and helping us adjust to the major leagues. This year he was a big influence on a lot of guys. He obviously helped out Jacoby when he came up. He made this atmosphere relaxed where a (youngster) could play in that certain situation. He’s part of everything.”

http://www.bostonher...ticleid=1043782

#125 MonstahsInLeft

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:58 PM

From what I have seen there are the Schillings, Arroyos and Wakefields of the world who communicate early on that they will take less money to get a deal done and the Damons and Pedros of the world who 'would like to stay in Boston', but make it very clear that they will be hard pressed not top take the best offer. Right now the 'noise' I have heard puts Lowell in this second category.


Granted none of us really know what goes on with these negotiations, and maybe I'm just being a fanboy, but I think I'd put Lowell somewhere in between on this one. There is much more of a sense both from him and from players that he truly does have a strong desire to stay, even if it does mean that he doesn't maximize his value.

That being said, I agree with the folks who are defending him on testing the market, and I don't think it there is a valid comparison to Shill. This is a totally different time in his career, and this is a crucial contract for him. The 3 year offer that is supposedly on the table is a solid offer from the Sox point of view, but a BIG sacrifice on his part, and I think he would be crazy not to at least see what other offers/options are out there and then make a decision. Even if he does want to come back, testing the market is part of the process of getting the best possible offer from the Sox and might net him a possible option year or more money from them.

Everybody's doing what they're supposed to do at this point, so I think we just have to let the process play itself out before we start bashing or labeling either side (that last not aimed at you SFS57 :rolling: )

#126 Average Reds


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:02 PM

This makes sense, but it assumes that the Sox will "match" (whatever that may mean) whatever the broader market offers, and I'm a whole lot less certain of that than you seem to be. Rather, I think it far more likely that the Sox will go as far as they're willing to go in order to keep him off the market. But if they aren't able to do that, then I suspect they'll drop out. More to the point, I think the Yankees would be willing to offer something the Sox aren't, and that would be that. To me, the only question is whether the Yankees will have that chance.


Close, but not exactly what I was saying.

My point was that I'm not surprised that there's not a deal yet and I don't take this to be a sign that Lowell isn't coming back. I take it as a sign that he wants to get more information before deciding whether he wants to come back.

I do hope he comes back and think that he will after squeezing Theo as much as he can. But if there is a wide gulf between what the Sox offer and what others are willing to pay, I expect him to sign elsewhere and I won't blame him a bit.

Fake Edit: If the Yankees make him a huge offer and take him from us, I won't lose much sleep over it. Lowell is a great defensive third baseman and won't decline much in the field over the next 4 years, but as a dead pull hitter his offensive numbers will suffer outside of Fenway.

#127 MonstahsInLeft

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:21 PM

I do hope he comes back and think that he will after squeezing Theo as much as he can. But if there is a wide gulf between what the Sox offer and what others are willing to pay, I expect him to sign elsewhere and I won't blame him a bit.


Exactly! Much better than I said it. Just because he wants to come back doesn't mean he shouldn't squeeze the Sox for every bit he can. And conversely the Sox don't necessarily need to MATCH opposing offers if Lowell really does assign some value to being a Red Sox, they just have to give him something competitive so that he's not making all sacrifice at his end.

#128 OttoC


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:47 PM

I don't think the thing is a yearly money problem; rather. Lowell wants four years and the Red Sox are only offering three. A possible compromise might be something like three years aat $14M per year with a fourth-year option at the same level, with the club getting a buy-out of the option at something like $8M. They might get the yearly figure down a little. The buy-out would be inversely proportional to the salary.

#129 Maalox


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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:56 PM

This makes sense, but it assumes that the Sox will "match" (whatever that may mean) whatever the broader market offers, and I'm a whole lot less certain of that than you seem to be.

I don't think that's what he's doing. He doesn't sound "certain" of anything. AR is merely assuming a situation like Varitek's as a hypothetical, in order to highlight his point - basically to put Lowell's circumstances in a light somewhat more favorable to the Red Sox than the real circumstances are, and show why Lowell would still take the Sox's offer to the market even in those cicumstances. AR is not saying that the Varitek hypothetical accurately describes Lowell's situation - just the opposite in fact.

Rather, I think it far more likely that the Sox will go as far as they're willing to go in order to keep him off the market. But if they aren't able to do that, then I suspect they'll drop out.

See I don't agree with this at all. In a Varitek situation, where there's a clear desire on both sides to make a deal, and where the parties are not as far apart re what they expected that deal to look like, then it makes sense for the Sox to avoid the bidding war. But where they're far apart, unless the Sox are able to do all of these:
1) define what his value will be,
2) convince the agents that that's what his value will be,
3) overcome any desire on the player's part to test the market which is independent of his desire to stay in Boston, and
4) actually pay that value,
...then all they're doing is bidding against themselves, and making the starting point for the market higher than it needs to be. If you're going to take that approach you've got to actually do the deal, and you've got to have a clear sense that the other side wants to do the deal with you. Lowell's intentions simply aren't that clear; his desire to stay in Boston, as opposed to Varitek's, is really just a throw-in.

(I should note: Varitek was a catcher, a position where top talent was scarce and expensive, and to which other players couldn't be easily converted or "tried out"; he was a team leader, not just in nebulous feelgood chemical and inspirational terms, but in real terms of calling pitches, checking if not calling defenses, generally being the manager's liason on the field; he was slightly young at the time of his deal than Lowell is now; his salary demands arguably were a little lower relative to his market than Lowell's are, if you discount the ARod Factor; and he was a switch-hitter, which probably has some negligible additional market value for a catcher.)

In Lowell's situation, 3/36 and, let's say, 4/56 or 4/60 are significantly far apart. There are two bases for disagreement that we know about right there: the annual salary and the years. On top of that you have what may possibly be a certain uncertainty or even incredulity on the part of Lowell himself (but presumably not his agents) about how much he can actually command. The temptation to test the market purely for its own sake may well be a factor here, and while the dollar figures that come out of that may cool the Sox's and Lowell's interest in each other, that isn't necessarily inversely tied in Lowell's mind to any desire to stay in Boston. Not yet, anyway, before the market opens.

In other words, he might just want to know how much he's worth. So far this thread has revolved around the difference between 3/36 and some higher prospective figure, which I'm guessing is somewhere between 4/48 and 4/60, and what that says about the relative importance Lowell currently places on loyalty and money, etc. etc. We take it for granted that Lowell will not sign for 3/36 when he can get 4/48 or 4/60. But what if he would pass up 4/60 in New York for 4/50 in Boston? Or 4/54? 4/56? What if the Sox are actually willing to pay 4/54 or 4/56?

I'm not saying that this is what's going on. Just that in the absence of real information about what's going on, these are reasonable possibilities. And that if/once the information starts flowing, it will paint a rather more defined picture of what is happening. And that that flow of information is probably itself tied to the opening of the market.

More to the point, I think the Yankees would be willing to offer something the Sox aren't, and that would be that. To me, the only question is whether the Yankees will have that chance.

Well, it's entirely possible that the Yankees are willing to offer something the Sox aren't. Whether they will have that chance is not, however, the "only" question. And that wouldn't be that. For example, if the Yankees were really the virtual locks you suggest, then some involvement by the Red Sox might be warranted if only to maximize the amount the Yankees pay out. The willingness to pay out is not solely a negotiating advantage; in a competitive market it can also have disadvantageous byproducts. If the Yankees are willing to pay 4/60, might it not be worth certain reasonable risks to make them pay every dollar of that, even if the Sox wouldn't pay it themselves?

I just think there are all kinds of different ways of looking at this situation, and all kinds of different strategies, that the Sox could have adopted that don't involve "dropping out" completely or allowing the public perception that if there is no deal by Monday then the Sox are out. I don't see what advantage such an outlook gives to anyone except restless fans who want closure for its own sake. The desire to "just get it over with" is why the average person pays more money for a car than he should have (and doesn't even know it) and gets it in brown when he wanted red. Theo Epstein & Co., I guarantee, are not significantly motivated by the desire to just get this over with; if anything they rather embrace the tense uncertainty inherent in negotiations, and base concession only upon cold analysis.

(I'm not saying you just want to "get it over with". I'm more just going with what sounds good to me at the moment.)

#130 The Boomer

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:56 PM

This makes sense, but it assumes that the Sox will "match" (whatever that may mean) whatever the broader market offers, and I'm a whole lot less certain of that than you seem to be. Rather, I think it far more likely that the Sox will go as far as they're willing to go in order to keep him off the market. But if they aren't able to do that, then I suspect they'll drop out. More to the point, I think the Yankees would be willing to offer something the Sox aren't, and that would be that. To me, the only question is whether the Yankees will have that chance.


Varitek was a special case because of the scarcity of catching. Lowell is more comparable to Damon and Pedro. The team has paramaters beyond which they won't go to sign older players to expensive long term deals. There is a predictable limit (something approaching 4 years and $60 million) beyond which management won't go. It seems like there are Plans B, C, D, etc. if Lowell leaves. If Tek had left, there would have been no such flexibility. Damon was eventually replaced by Crisp and Ellsbury. Pedro was ultimately replaced by Beckett. Youkilis (if he switches to 3B) and AAA players Carter and Lowrie could be called upon to fill the gap if management wants to gamble with what is already in the organization. Unless management has an opportunity to relieve themselves of Manny's salary, I don't see them seriously bidding for A Rod. However, there are also any number of trade scenarios that have already been speculated about (ranging from fading veterans like Rolen or Garciaparra to blocked prospects such as LaRoche). Most of these options, just like when Lowell himself was acquired, will involve buy low scenarios either in terms of relatively unproven young talent or in gambling that, with a change of scenery, veterans can make comebacks to levels that justify the salaries dumped on the Sox to acquire them. If Lowell should leave, it's important for management not to act desperately and, given the situation, there is no reason to think they should. A LaRoche type acquisition would be my Plan B but other options exist because there is not a huge scarcity of competent to good corner infielders who could produce enough to justify letting Lowell leave if his financial demands get too high.

I have the same relaxed feeling about how management will respond to Lowell's possible exit that I did about how the players will respond when they were down 3 games to 1 against Cleveland. Is there anybody who now doubts that, despite the inevitable mistakes that even the best organizational minds humanly make, this FO knows what it's doing? I would like to see Lowell ideally stay for up to 3 years at not more or less than $40 million. However, if this won't be possible, I can also imagine alternatives that, in the long run, have a chance to work out much better for the team. Every body can take a deep breath and just wait and see what happens.

#131 Dick Drago

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 09:47 AM

I think Schilling also has a special understanding of his legacy; he is one of the few modern athletes who seems to understand the fan base, and think about what people will think of him in ten years. I don't think guys like Damon etc., have a real understanding nor appreciation of that consideration. In ten years, Schilling will be even more popular because he took less money to stay in Boston. I don't think that mitigates the admirable intention he has to stay in Boston because he genuinely seems to love the atmosphere, but he's smarter than most, more worldly...I think a few extra bucks are less important to him at this point in his career than the chance to cement his historical identity and legacy. He's already a hero in this town, but now will be even more of a Boston icon. Four years ago perhaps the choice would have been different.

I think Pedro is just as smart as Schilling, but he still had more of a career ahead of him; its harder to make that type of choice when you are looking a few years down the road rather than for a single year. He also had nothing really to win by staying; as much as he seemed to love it here, I think unlike Schill. he didn't like all the media BS, and is more sensitive to criticism and less willing to fight back in public through the papers. If he'd received a four year contract with Boston he'd be criticized for not living up to expectations, or simply vaguely acknowledged for doing what was expected had he lived up to the contract. He also would always be competing against the Pedro of '98-'01. He re-invigorated the franchise, won a championship..I think for him it was time to move on, face a new four year challenge, and yes the prestige and security of a bigger, longer contract. He's also probably headed to the Dominican after his career and the legacy that is most likey more important to him, the one he has cemented among the rabid fan base in that country. He'll be a legend there no matter where he does the rest of his career for life, and probably beyond life.

Damon, I think is more similar to most athletes; doesn't really think so much about what people will think after his career, unable to think beyond his current situation, and facing the pressure from the union, agent etc. to get the biggest contract. He doesn't seem sophisticated enough to even understand why he's now reviled in Beantown, let alone conceptualize his post-career days when his only time in the spotlight will be his legacy and past glories. It seems to me why so many, even star high school athletes have trouble moving beyond the stardom and adulation they used to receive; once its over its over, and in the words of Henry Hil they are 'just another schnook'. He does appear bitter, and had he been able to weigh his comfort, popularity etc. against his dough perhaps the choice would have been different. Varitek seemed to be able to do that, since he didn't really seriously test the market as I recall.

Whatever the case, I think its unrealistic to think that most of these guys will consider the fan opinion as much as we think we would in similar circumstance. They have their own choices to make; they are extremely competitive guys as well as wanting the best situation for themselves financially. Other guys getting more money, more years etc. gives them a measuring stick and they've spent their whole lives trying to 'win'. There is also probably more pressure than we can realize from the players assoiciation and their agents...guys like Damon ( and athletes who appear smarter) don't appear really sophisticated in terms of financial matters, they've probably focused on the competition on the field, and relied on others for most of their business and financial affairs.

Well, enough pschobable for today...

Edited by Dick Drago, 11 November 2007 - 09:53 AM.


#132 The Hot Corner

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 11:20 AM

Nice post, Drago. Leave it to SoSHers to examine the human condition relative to professional sports.

#133 ScubaSteveAvery


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Posted 11 November 2007 - 12:11 PM

I'm going to prime this idea by admitting I know next to nothing about contractual structure. But I think this could be a realistic and reasonable approach. With that said, I have noticed over the past few years that more and more contracts are "backloaded." For instance, in a 3 year $20 million contract, a player makes $5 million in year one, $6 million in year two and $9 million in year three. But in Lowell's situation, I think the front office could "frontload" it, add a fourth year, and not be hurt by the deal. It appears that the front office is getting hung up over the value vs. production argument when it comes to giving Lowell a fourth year and will be stuck paying $12 million for an unproductive third baseman 4 years from now. Moreover, the size of his contract would be virtually immovable by then. So my suggestion is this:

4 years $50 million
-Year 1: $16 million
-Year 2: $14 million
-Year 3: $11 million
-Year 4: $9 million

In my opinion, Lowell has at least one good year left, but at most two. So for his first two years, the front office would pay the bulk of his salary. Since it is already understood that the front office is overpaying for Lowell anyways, we can assume that his production will never live up do the dollar amount on his paychecks. So while next year's production will probably never sniff $16 million, you are still paying most for what could be assumed as the best year of Lowell's declining production. Then by the end of his contract, a $9 million commitment won't seem as bad when he is batting .260 with 12 HR's. Moreover, this sort of structuring makes Lowell a movable commodity for mid to small market teams looking for a short term option at third base.

#134 ngruz25


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Posted 11 November 2007 - 12:23 PM

Moreover, this sort of structuring makes Lowell a movable commodity for mid to small market teams looking for a short term option at third base.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge of the subject can help me, but I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why agents and players never want to sign front-loaded contracts like the one you are suggesting. Lowell would sign the contract with the expectation that he's going to be in the same place for four years, and making his contract cheaper during the last few years increases the likelihood that he ends up somewhere he doesn't want to be. Thus, it would be undesirable for a player to sign a front-loaded contract.

#135 ScubaSteveAvery


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Posted 11 November 2007 - 12:39 PM

Perhaps someone with better knowledge of the subject can help me, but I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why agents and players never want to sign front-loaded contracts like the one you are suggesting. Lowell would sign the contract with the expectation that he's going to be in the same place for four years, and making his contract cheaper during the last few years increases the likelihood that he ends up somewhere he doesn't want to be. Thus, it would be undesirable for a player to sign a front-loaded contract.


Good point.

But I think by year 4, he will will be a 10/5 guy right? Also, I would imagine adding a "no trade list" to his contract would have to be a must in this situation. But even if he doesn't get traded, you are only paying $9 million for his performance. In almost any situation, Lowell comes out on top, but in this situation, both sides get what they want.

Like I said, I know next to nothing about contract structure, but this was just a suggestion that works.

Edited by Bosox33, 11 November 2007 - 02:34 PM.


#136 dauber23

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 03:23 PM

I know these are not perfect comparisons to Lowell, but according to today's NY Post here is what the Yanks are offering Posada and Mariano:

The players' current offers are comparable. Rivera will be offered a three-year pact for $39 million, while Posada's offer will be for approximately three years and $40 million.


Link

Edited by dauber23, 11 November 2007 - 03:24 PM.


#137 The Hot Corner

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 04:00 PM

I know these are not perfect comparisons to Lowell, but according to today's NY Post here is what the Yanks are offering Posada and Mariano:
Link


I think the nature of the careers of Rivera and Posada make any comparison with Lowell difficult. Both have played their entire careers in pinstripes, and both would likely want to finish their career in the Bronx given their family situations. Lowell's only been here for 2 years, and though he likes it here, isn't necessarily tied to Boston in any significant way like, say, Schilling.

#138 bowiac


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Posted 11 November 2007 - 04:06 PM

In my opinion, Lowell has at least one good year left, but at most two. So for his first two years, the front office would pay the bulk of his salary. Since it is already understood that the front office is overpaying for Lowell anyways, we can assume that his production will never live up do the dollar amount on his paychecks. So while next year's production will probably never sniff $16 million, you are still paying most for what could be assumed as the best year of Lowell's declining production. Then by the end of his contract, a $9 million commitment won't seem as bad when he is batting .260 with 12 HR's. Moreover, this sort of structuring makes Lowell a movable commodity for mid to small market teams looking for a short term option at third base.


The problem is that this just shifts the resources around, rather than actually makes the burden of Lowell's contract lighter. It wouldn't seem as bad perhaps paying him $9M in year four, but it would be just as bad (actually a bit worse) because whatever savings you get in year four are balanced out by increased payouts in year one.

There's no reason to prefer to pay a player more for their best year, and less for their worst year if the total expenditure is the same.

It's actually a bit worse, due to the inflationary pressures which exist in baseball. If Lowell wanted a 3 year, $40M deal, the Red Sox would love the deal to be league minimum the first two years, and then $39M or so in year three. That would be great for them (and shitty for Lowell). It would make the true value of the deal significantly less.

Teams want to backload deals - not players.

#139 The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:40 PM

I think the nature of the careers of Rivera and Posada make any comparison with Lowell difficult. Both have played their entire careers in pinstripes, and both would likely want to finish their career in the Bronx given their family situations. Lowell's only been here for 2 years, and though he likes it here, isn't necessarily tied to Boston in any significant way like, say, Schilling.


also, sometimes part of the hometown discount is the willingness of a player to reduce salary demands to stay with the same club so that the savings can be reinvested elsewhere to improve the ballclub that has a set payroll. That's probably not as much of a consideration in NY, probably not so much in Boston either.

Since he's been around here for only 2 years and may not know the area too well, perhaps we can get Lowell to lower his salary demands if we tell him that if he signs with Boston we will name a city in Massachusetts after him...

#140 dcb46

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 06:10 PM

I think the nature of the careers of Rivera and Posada make any comparison with Lowell difficult. Both have played their entire careers in pinstripes, and both would likely want to finish their career in the Bronx given their family situations. Lowell's only been here for 2 years, and though he likes it here, isn't necessarily tied to Boston in any significant way like, say, Schilling.


Don't these offers create something like a ceiling on what the Yanks will offer Lowell? Both guys are historically much better at their positions than Lowell has been over his career, and both are lifelong MFYs. What message does it send about Yankee loyalty for the Yanks to offer Lowell more than they offer these two legends? I realize, they are older than Lowell, but that alone wouldn't satisfy the Yankees fans who worship these 2. And it won't make Posada and Rivera too happy to be told they are expected to give a hometown discount to the team with more money than god, while more is thrown at an outsider.

#141 TomRicardo


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Posted 11 November 2007 - 07:08 PM

Don't these offers create something like a ceiling on what the Yanks will offer Lowell? Both guys are historically much better at their positions than Lowell has been over his career, and both are lifelong MFYs. What message does it send about Yankee loyalty for the Yanks to offer Lowell more than they offer these two legends? I realize, they are older than Lowell, but that alone wouldn't satisfy the Yankees fans who worship these 2. And it won't make Posada and Rivera too happy to be told they are expected to give a hometown discount to the team with more money than god, while more is thrown at an outsider.


No. Those aren't even the ceiling of what the Yankees will offer Rivera and Posada. Right now it is hard to figure out the market because the only teams that float offers to free agents are the team they left. Other teams can just say they are interested. Tuesday is when other teams can start giving offers. By Friday we will start getting an idea of what teams will offer these players.

#142 Marbleheader


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:03 PM

I expected to hear more about this today than we have. The only blurb I've read at all was from Bradford:

With their exclusive negotiating rights set to expire at midnight, the Red Sox [team stats]continued to work with Mike Lowell’s agents, Sam and Seth Levinson, in hopes of reaching an agreement before the deadline.

Following yesterday’s talks, both sides understand that Lowell will certainly be able to garner more money from teams such as the New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers, Philadelphia Phillies or Los Angeles Angels than he would from the Red Sox.

The question that continues to linger is how much the 33-year-old third baseman is willing to leave on the table in order to remain with the Sox.



#143 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:12 PM

If he's not signed by tonight, isn't it pretty safe to assume he won't be in Boston next season. He must know that he's going to receive offers of at least 4/$52M -- a number the Red Sox surely aren't going to match.

#144 TomRicardo


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:13 PM

I expected to hear more about this today than we have. The only blurb I've read at all was from Bradford:


I said it already but it bears repeating, if Lowell doesn't reup by midnight tonight, he is gone. There will be too much of a frenzy arund this guy.

#145 DJnVa


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:14 PM

If he's not signed by tonight, isn't it pretty safe to assume he won't be in Boston next season. He must know that he's going to receive offers of at least 4/$52M -- a number the Red Sox surely aren't going to match.



Sure, but it doesn't hurt him to actually get that offer and bring it back to Theo. He calls their bluff and in turn the Sox call his.

#146 Oil Can's Liver


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:14 PM

If the Sox offer is actually 3x$36-$45 mill and Lowell rejects it for 4x14..I cannot blame him. I cannot blame the Sox either. I already think they will be overpaying for Lowell in terms of what he is likely to produce over the next 3 years. I tend to agree with the Jamesian theory that Lowell will revert to his baseline career numbers and put up 20/80 and .280 BA next year. I would much rather invest in A-rod for $25 mill than Lowell for 13-15 per year.. Yes the salary is double but the production may be triple in HR's and double in RBI's.

#147 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:15 PM

Sure, but it doesn't hurt him to actually get that offer and bring it back to Theo. He calls their bluff and in turn the Sox call his.


Fair enough, but Theo has been pretty steadfast in setting a number for veteran contracts and not going over them. I don't recall a time when someone called Theo's bluff and he blinked.

#148 8 and 9 in Left

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:18 PM

I expected to hear more about this today than we have. The only blurb I've read at all was from Bradford:

I think the quiet around this over the weekend is good. But I also agree that if it's not done by midnight, then the Sox can cue up the fat lady.

#149 DJnVa


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:18 PM

Fair enough, but Theo has been pretty steadfast in setting a number for veteran contracts and not going over them. I don't recall a time when someone called Theo's bluff and he blinked.


Mind you I don't think it will work, but as long as the Sox didn't put any deadline on him, I'm willing to bet there's a phone call made along the lines of "Hey Theo, LA is willing to go 4 years/$55 million. Anything we can do to get that 4th year out of you?"

Followed by Theo saying "No, but we'd love you back at that offer we already made."

Edited by DJnVa, 12 November 2007 - 01:19 PM.


#150 TheoShmeo


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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:19 PM

Unless the Sox are going to surprise us all with an announcement that was preceded by almost no same day buzz, it seems likely that Lowell is going to test the waters beginning this evening. If that happens, I assume that there are two possible outcomes: One, he takes a longer than three year deal from another team and two, he brings back what he can get from the markt to the Sox in hopes they up the offer. The latter seems unlikely since everyone already believes that other teams will give Lowell four years, and the Sox could have met that almost certain outcome in advance, if they were so inclined. If that's all correct, it seems like Lowell is gone.

I know I'm just tea leaf reading here, and we wont have to guess in a few days, but it's hard for me to see this playing out any other way in absence of an announcement before midnight tonight. Said differently, is it realistic to expect Lowell to get four year offers from other teams and nevertheless still decide to stay in Boston when he could have done that before getting those four year offers? I don't see it.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 12 November 2007 - 01:20 PM.