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When do the Sox permanently drop the choker tag?


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#1 philly sox fan


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:02 PM

It didn't really happen after 04. See for example all the stupid articles about the Yankees catching them this year.

But one of the real surprises of this series was seeing just how often the recent vintage Sox have come back in the playoffs:

Down 0-2 to Cle in 1999
Down 0-2 to Oak in 2003
Down 0-3 to NYY in 2004
Down 1-3 to Cle in 2007

That's a pretty fucking impressive run of comebacks.

Unfortunately I think we'll have to wait until the idiot sportswriters who worked the 70s actually keel over and die, but anybody who pays a bit of attention to the next round of articles about the Sox coughing up their next leaad deserves whatever agita they've given themselves.

#2 smastroyin


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:19 PM

It didn't really happen after 04. See for example all the stupid articles about the Yankees catching them this year.

But one of the real surprises of this series was seeing just how often the recent vintage Sox have come back in the playoffs:

Down 0-2 to Cle in 1999
Down 0-2 to Oak in 2003
Down 0-3 to NYY in 2004
Down 1-3 to Cle in 2007

That's a pretty fucking impressive run of comebacks.

Unfortunately I think we'll have to wait until the idiot sportswriters who worked the 70s actually keel over and die, but anybody who pays a bit of attention to the next round of articles about the Sox coughing up their next leaad deserves whatever agita they've given themselves.


Let's not forget 1-3 to Cal in 1986.

#3 Caspir

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:22 PM

It's funny because my wife was saying, "You know, about five years ago, a game seven would be met with, "Same old Sox, breaking hearts in the most excruciating way possible," but this time around it was, "Same old Sox, winning in the most dramatic way possible." My oh my, how times have changed.

#4 RedOctober3829


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:28 PM

It's funny because my wife was saying, "You know, about five years ago, a game seven would be met with, "Same old Sox, breaking hearts in the most excruciating way possible," but this time around it was, "Same old Sox, winning in the most dramatic way possible." My oh my, how times have changed.

Right now, the Boston Red Sox should be considered the most clutch team in baseball. They always find a way to get great starting pitching and countless people come up with big hits in elimination games. They don't ever quit and they keep grinding. Terry Francona handles the bullpen as well as any Red Sox manager I've ever seen. David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez usually come up big, but players such as Mark Bellhorn, Kevin Millar, Dave Roberts, Johnny Damon, and now Dustin Pedroia, JD Drew, and Kevin Youkilis provide such huge lifts in the most key situations.

The breaks seem to be going mostly our way now. From Tony Clark's ground rule double to the two plays involving Kenny Lofton, we seem to be getting all the luck. But, you create your own luck. I love this group of guys from 2003-present. A lot of talent, guts, determination, and great karma. It is the best time in history to be a Boston fan.

#5 ZachCrouch

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:30 PM

It's funny because my wife was saying, "You know, about five years ago, a game seven would be met with, "Same old Sox, breaking hearts in the most excruciating way possible," but this time around it was, "Same old Sox, winning in the most dramatic way possible." My oh my, how times have changed.


That's a great point. The atmosphere surrounding the franchise is really changing and it really is a new era of Red Sox baseball.

#6 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:36 PM

Not only did they come back this year against an excellent Indians team, but they did so against their top 3 pitchers.

I got a little nervous in the later innings when it was still a tight ballgame, but it was just being looked at as a ballgame against a very good team, not as a national referendum on our self-worth as fans. Before 2004 that's never going to be presented that way.

#7 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:37 PM

If the sox go on and beat the Rockies, I think that for the first time in my lifetime, my attitude towards the team I'm rooting for in relation to the Yankees will take on an entirely new feeling, and I just might to some degree be able to lessen my obsession with the Yankees losing all the time.

If, however, the Rockies win, it's gonna piss me off again that all those Yankee fans will be gloating the same way i did when Beckett beat them even after that awful loss that we suffered in 2003. I want to have two championships to their 0 in this century safely tucked away in my back pocket before next year begins. And then I can really enjoy all their managerial shenanigans, signings I hope they lose out on, etc. It will be some off season.

#8 JimD

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:45 PM

14-3 in elimination games since 1999 ... some bunch of chokers.

#9 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:47 PM

14-3 in elimination games since 1999 ... some bunch of chokers.

Tito had a hilarious comment about this stat in the post-game presser. Said that since he was the baserunning coach for Oakland in the 2003 ALCS, he was partially responsible for that record even before he got to Boston.

#10 TallManinOregon

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:51 PM

My favorite part of the game?

I didn't see Bambino or Buckner 1 fu*&ing time.
Thanks FOX...

Oh Pedro's dinger was pretty good too.

#11 Drocca


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:52 PM

If the sox go on and beat the Rockies, I think that for the first time in my lifetime, my attitude towards the team I'm rooting for in relation to the Yankees will take on an entirely new feeling, and I just might to some degree be able to lessen my obsession with the Yankees losing all the time.

If, however, the Rockies win, it's gonna piss me off again that all those Yankee fans will be gloating the same way i did when Beckett beat them even after that awful loss that we suffered in 2003. I want to have two championships to their 0 in this century safely tucked away in my back pocket before next year begins. And then I can really enjoy all their managerial shenanigans, signings I hope they lose out on, etc. It will be some off season.


You shouldn't let other people bother you so much. Who cares what fans of another team think? Who, especially, cares what fans of a team that we won the division over and lost in the first round as we just completed another amazing comeback and are headed to our 2nd World Series in 4 years think?

It's a great time to be a Red Sox fan. And you're thinking about the Yankees? Odd, to say the least.

#12 reggiecleveland


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:53 PM

If they win the series it has to be gone. If they lose some will still use it. But if they make two huge comebacks that lead to Ws titles then it would a new rep.

#13 jsinger121


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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:59 PM

14-3 in elimination games since 1999 ... some bunch of chokers.


Compared to the Indians who are 1-9 in elimination games since 1999. Indians should have that title.

#14 reggiecleveland


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:02 AM

You know Fernandez' error was almost Buckneresque in magnitude as well.

#15 Archer1979


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:10 AM

It's amazing what a new management group will do for you.

Seriously, in 2004, what other ownership group would have just let the "Idiots" be the mantra? Yet, if there were ever a psychological makeup of a team that you needed to end the drought, there it was.

#16 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:11 AM

Drocca: I've spent 55 years of my life dying over every Yankee win. I'm not a lifetime Sox fan like many of you, since I joined only in 1988, and mainly because they are the Yankees chief rival. I will admit to still caring at least as much about Yankee losses as I do Red sox wins. The thread asked about an image changing. My image of my team versus the Yankees, a team that always killed my hopes from way back when I was a Brooklyn Dodger fan, and then having to watch their annoying fans gloat about it all the time, will definitely change. Far less odd a reaction than you think, especially in a thread that began by asking when the team's image would change. It will be a pleasure for me to be able to talk with yankee fans from a position of strength for a change. I've waited a long time for that, and I thank the Red sox for it.

#17 MonstahsInLeft

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:14 AM

Compared to the Indians who are 1-9 in elimination games since 1999. Indians should have that title.


Sad...even THEY thought they were the underdogs against the Yanks...

The Collapse

This magical season is over. The team that tied Boston for the most wins in the majors, the team that thrilled us with an unexpected playoff victory against the Yankees, is prematurely done.


Sounds like they want that choker tag BADLY!

#18 Archer1979


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:14 AM

Drocca: I've spent 55 years of my life dying over every Yankee win. I'm not a lifetime Sox fan like many of you, since I joined only in 1988, and mainly because they are the Yankees chief rival. I will admit to still caring at least as much about Yankee losses as I do Red sox wins. The thread asked about an image changing. My image of my team versus the Yankees, a team that always killed my hopes from way back when I was a Brooklyn Dodger fan, and then having to watch their annoying fans gloat about it all the time, will definitely change. Far less odd a reaction than you think, especially in a thread that began by asking when the team's image would change. It will be a pleasure for me to be able to talk with yankee fans from a position of strength for a change. I've waited a long time for that, and I thank the Red sox for it.



Crap. You should have been around for the 70's.

#19 Pumpsie


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:25 AM

Crap. You should have been around for the 70's.


...and the 60's.

#20 Ananti


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:25 AM

14-3 in their last 17 games facing elimination.

7-1 in their last 8 games with a chance to close out the opposition. (The one loss being the Gump game.)

By contrast from 2001-present

The MFY are 3-7 when facing elimination, and 3-8 in games they have a chance to close out the opposition.

#21 JimD

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:32 AM

After this series and the 1999 ALDS comeback, I think the Sox have paid back the Indians for 1948, 1995 and 1998.

#22 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:42 AM

On Thursday, there were maybe 3 of us in my office who had positive attitudes about the Sox's chances, vs. a couple of dozen doom and gloomers. I'm gonna have fun (ok, sleepy fun) tomorrow reminding them that I told them all the Sox had a very good chance of coming back and winning the series.

If we win the Series, I think next time around you'll have alot more folks BELIEVING. One title could be some luck. Two in 4 years is MEANINGFUL.

#23 Eric Van


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 01:52 AM

The breaks seem to be going mostly our way now. From Tony Clark's ground rule double to the two plays involving Kenny Lofton, we seem to be getting all the luck. But, you create your own luck. I love this group of guys from 2003-present. A lot of talent, guts, determination, and great karma. It is the best time in history to be a Boston fan.

I would instead say that the breaks are finally evening out. Schilling's tendon problem was a bad break, Lieber pitching the game of his life was a bad break of sorts. In this series the bad breaks against us in games 2 and 3 were much more textbook, led by the non-HR hit to the deepest part of the park for us, and the HR bouncing off the top of the wall for them, but also including the egregious blown 3-0 call on Manny that may have spared Westbrook from a meltdown, the 9 extra at-em balls we hit and, in contrast, a weakly-hit chopper going up the middle immediately before Peralta's HR off of Schilling.

We won game 5 despite further breaks against us (Manny's 1B / HR -- even if the call is right, hitting the top of the wall and bouncing back in play rather than over like Lofton's ball is an enormous bad break), Lowell's ball inches fair. And then the turnaround in breaks in games 6 and 7 was just amazing.

#24 Pandemonium67

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 02:48 AM

The 14-3 mark tells it all. That choker tag is, like, so last century.

#25 DamonasaNomad

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:23 AM

...and the 60's.

I was. And the '70s (had to walk through the BU neighborhood of taunting Yank fans after watching Dent's homer from the back of the bleachers).

And I'm completely with Zup on this one.

#26 Deweys New Stance

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:48 AM

Compared to the Indians who are 1-9 in elimination games since 1999. Indians should have that title.


You know, I felt pretty badly for those Tribe fans who weren't allowed to just watch the ALDS and ALCS without a constant barrage of graphics and snarky comments from Joe Buck about 1948, The Curse of Rocky Colavito and all of the Indians' heartbreaking postseason losses over the past dozen years...

...oh wait, they didn't have to deal with any of that. Not that I'm saying they should have; I wouldn't wish that on any fanbase except for MFY fans. The point is that from some point in the late '90's (once CHB's moronic 'Curse' crap had been fully integrated in popular culture) until 10/27/04, it became nearly impossible to watch the Sox on a national broadcast (Fox being the worst offender) or to read about them in a national column without some moron bringing up the Babe/Bucky/Buckner crapola...hell, by the '02-'04 time frame Fox would throw up graphics about it in a mid-season Saturday Game of the Week, even when the opponent wasn't the MFYs. We became the media's favorite whipping-boy fanbase, with Cubs fans a distant second.

Thank god those days are gone; yeah, there's the occasional Murray Chass article blathering on about how we still have something to prove, but those are just the dying embers of a wildfire that been brought down. I guess it kinda is like BSG said after '04; all I wanted to be able to do was watch and root for my team like a normal fan. I guess I've reached that point, last night, even with the outcome very much in doubt in the middle innings, I was fairly calm and quietly confident. I had a good feeling that the Sox would be able to pull it out, but I realized that Manny was absolutely right...either way it wasn't gonna be the end of the world.

To Philly's original point, I think winning this WS will erase the last faint vestiges of the "Sox are star-crossed chokers" storyline, and even without a WS title this year that nonsense will continue to fade away.

Of course, now the media are breaking out a whole new stupid line of attack on the Sox. William Rhoden in yesterday's NYTimes:

Be Careful, Sox Fans, If Your Team Wins and You're Happy About It, You'll Be Just Like the Yankees

Just as idiotic, but I think I'll live with the tradeoff.

#27 Average Reds


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:32 AM

Of course, now the media are breaking out a whole new stupid line of attack on the Sox. William Rhoden in yesterday's NYTimes:

Be Careful, Sox Fans, If Your Team Wins and You're Happy About It, You'll Be Just Like the Yankees

Just as idiotic, but I think I'll live with the tradeoff.


I agree with Dewey - the tag is gone and we're on the way to manufacturing a new identity - "The Big Bad Sox."

I've always wanted the Red Sox to turn into a consistent winner, so I have no problem with being identified as "the new Yankees" if that's the consequence of becoming a dominant team. Is it completely accurate? No. But it's directionally correct.

Think about it or a second - is there a greater compliment in professional sports than fan envy?

#28 biollante


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:37 AM

The choker tag was created by the media and will have to be destroyed by the media.

I think it ended in 2004 but this past series should put all doubters to rest.

Still, the media has to sell something.

#29 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:44 AM

Think about it or a second - is there a greater compliment in professional sports than fan envy?

The first thing one of my MFY fan coworkers said to me this morning was, "Red Sox Suck!" I could only chuckle. My how the times have changed.

#30 dcmissle


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:13 AM

The choker tag was created by the media and will have to be destroyed by the media.

I think it ended in 2004 but this past series should put all doubters to rest.

Still, the media has to sell something.



The classless NY Daily News has bestowed the title on the Indians: http://www.nydailyne...and_go_f-1.html.

The NY Post stands alone among the 3 major NY dailies in giving the Sox the credit they deserve:
http://www.nypost.co...stin_em_off.htm

#31 Eagle3

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:51 AM

A friend of mine is a huge Sox fan who is 53 years old and the pain of those first 50 years has scarred him for life. He was all gloom and doom after game 4. At that point I told him to be a believer, because we have Beckett in game 5 and that if they won game 5 they would definitely win the series. I sent him an email this morning asking if we was now a believer. His response was "I believe, I believe . . . until the next time it looks like they have a game all locked up and I begin to panic again. I wonder if that will ever go away". I told him to let go of the past, because it's totally irrelevant. There's not a choker among the bunch on this current team.

Then you have the perspective of the kids. My youngest son's memories of baseball start in 2004. To him, the Sox are the never say die, comeback kids. And the Yankees are choking losers who've never won a thing.

#32 dcmissle


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:56 AM

A friend of mine is a huge Sox fan who is 53 years old and the pain of those first 50 years has scarred him for life. He was all gloom and doom after game 4. At that point I told him to be a believer, because we have Beckett in game 5 and that if they won game 5 they would definitely win the series. I sent him an email this morning asking if we was now a believer. His response was "I believe, I believe . . . until the next time it looks like they have a game all locked up and I begin to panic again. I wonder if that will ever go away". I told him to let go of the past, because it's totally irrelevant. There's not a choker among the bunch on this current team.

Then you have the perspective of the kids. My youngest son's memories of baseball start in 2004. To him, the Sox are the never say die, comeback kids. And the Yankees are choking losers who've never won a thing.



It is generational. Example: the LA Lakers wore the label decades ago when they routinely lost playoff series to the Celtics, including at least one 3 to 1 series lead that went down the drain. The Lakers finally broke through, and nobody calls them chokers anymore.

#33 Myt1


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:57 AM

Unless something goes very, very poorly next series, I think the choker tage is dead. The Sox have shown that they can win while ahead (sweeps of the Angels and Cardinals) or from behind (A's, Yankees, and Indians). Holding on to win the Division title helped as well.

#34 Tony C


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:16 AM

My favorite part of the game?

I didn't see Bambino or Buckner 1 fu*&ing time.
Thanks FOX...

Oh Pedro's dinger was pretty good too.


dang, that's right -- and the best thing is i didn't even think of it the whole time.

sweeeeet bliss, it just gets better.

#35 NYCSox


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:20 AM

Sean McAdam agrees

For decades, they were the baseball embodiment of Murphy’s Law. Then, without warning, something changed in October, 2004. It wasn’t instant karma — unless by “instant” you mean 86 years — but it was, inarguably something.

Since then, it has not been the same for the Red Sox. It doesn’t mean that they can’t lose; it just means that they’re no longer destined to do so.

Fall behind the Cleveland Indians three games to one in the American League Championship Series? Nothing a three-game winning streak can’t cure. Watch a three-run begin to ebb away in the seventh inning of Game Seven? You can always get some help from the opposing third-base coach.

Nothing is as it used to be. Before, no lead was safe. Now, no deficit is insurmountable.

A franchise has stood its history on its head.


Linky

#36 Rasputin


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:21 AM

There was a curse sign that someone held up in Cleveland that made it on the air for a moment wasn't there? Am I imagining it?

Regardless, we've won the Division, the AL, and the World Series since the last time the Yankees have won anything and the last All Star Game in Yankee Stadium is going to be managed with our manager and played by a bunch of our players.

#37 Mourning Woodward Jr

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:34 AM

You know, I felt pretty badly for those Tribe fans who weren't allowed to just watch the ALDS and ALCS without a constant barrage of graphics and snarky comments from Joe Buck about 1948, The Curse of Rocky Colavito and all of the Indians' heartbreaking postseason losses over the past dozen years...

...oh wait, they didn't have to deal with any of that.


There was a moderate amount of that on the FOX broadcasts -- not tons, but they gave a nod to their 1948 championship pennant at least once for every game at the Jake. There was just enough of it that it would have gotten under my skin if I were a Cleveland fan. It was nowhere near the zeal they put into Curse of the Bambino storylines 3+ years ago, but it spelled out the reality of how things stand -- the Sox have already shed the choker tag, and a lighter version of it is being worn by other teams.

For any remaining trace of a Choker label that remains stuck to the Sox, a lot of it comes from us. There was a lot of panic around these parts in September, with a lot of SOSHers dreading a repeat of 1978. Ending the championship drought three years ago did tons for our collective mental health, but there were enough disasters to make a lot of us very nervous at reminders of past collapses. We'll shed the choker tag for once and for all when we stop expecting the worst when we're actually the frontrunners.

Winning this World Series, I have to think, would accomplish just that.

#38 gcapalbo

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:53 AM

The overall stats say otherwise obviously.

However, it is indeed true that in '46, '67, '75, '78, '86 and '03 we lost tight games at a key moment to lose a championship, or the possibility of it... and those moments have been played up by our opposition.

This is a reputation hung on us mainly by fans of another team, who seem to be living up to it themselves in recent years.

I'd make the observation that all of those memorable losses were in series that were tied, in a 7th game or otherwise a matchup of two evenly talented teams. In every case we'd either made an outstanding run to get to where we were ('78), or made a dramatic comeback of our own ('75) to get to the deciding moment.

Nothing to be ashamed of in any of that, ultimately.

Instead, I'd say a choke is more defined by losing 3 or 4 games in a row, when you're up in a series and have absolutely no business losing.

It takes mystique, aura, or waving a white towel furiously to pull of that kind of thing.

#39 MentalDisabldLst


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:00 AM

Unless something goes very, very poorly next series, I think the choker tage is dead. The Sox have shown that they can win while ahead (sweeps of the Angels and Cardinals) or from behind (A's, Yankees, and Indians). Holding on to win the Division title helped as well.


I mean, a lot of this is totally dependent on just having a really good baseball team. The laundry behind it is a coincidence.

I much prefer being able to tell people we have fantastic pitchers and a lineup that ranges from "impressive" to "wrath of god" depending on the day. Having won a championship means I can root for Ortiz and Manny and the rest without some hint of sadness of "yes, they're great... and I hope one day they'll win it all". Instead I can root for this great team and all of the fun personalities and skills, and have an attitude of "hey, this is fun - I hope they win, but if they don't, I'll tip my cap to a better team and miss our guys until the spring." I'd rather not impute some sort of grand personality to the history of a franchise.

We've seen some great Red Sox teams and some piss-poor Red Sox teams and what one has done doesn't affect the other. The 1949 team may have been a bunch of chokers, but the teams philly mentions certainly were/are not, and there's no inference to be drawn about the sum total of RedSox-dom out of it all. Just enjoy the great teams, because team greatness and glory are fleeting and precious. Just ask Mariano Rivera.

#40 LahoudOrBillyC


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:20 AM

I never really bought that the team were chokers, just the victim of a very poor string of luck. Only 1986 involved a game that we were very likely to win going awry. The teams we lost to in 1967, 1975 and 1986 were each the best National League team (by record) of their respective decades. We were in position to win a few times and did not.

The other side of this coin is that I also do not think the Indians choked this year, nor do I think the Yankees choked in 2004. In the Yankees case they got none of the "luck" for three games and then got wiped out. The Indians just happened to win their three games at the wrong time for history. If they win 2-4-6, no one things anything of it.

The Red Sox are one of the best teams, perhaps the best team, but it is still an impressive accomplishment to get through three series. Two so far, winning 7 of 10 games.

#41 dirtynine

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:32 AM

I think it'll always be around, because it's an easy angle and a good way to rope in casual fans. Even if it's not the angsty "will they ever do it" stuff that dominated pre-'04, the Sox will always have chokes and curses as a part of their mythology. Kind of like Boston will always have a "puritan" label even after years of modernization. It works for the tourists.

#42 sfip


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:37 AM

I'm also with Zup, as 1) I grew up in an area full of Yankees fans and 2) it was my hatred of the Yankees and their fans that first led me towards the direction of the Red Sox. I still routinely deal with a handful of Yankees fans.

If the Sox win this upcoming series, we won't have to hear Yankees fans play the retarded, "It'll be 86 years before they win another one" card.

#43 Philip Jeff Frye


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:41 AM

If the Sox win this upcoming series, we won't have to hear Yankees fans play the retarded, "It'll be 86 years before they win another one" card.


What makes you think that? They'll just move the date of the next one back by 3 years.

#44 Paul M


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:48 AM

No, they'll just compare the 26 titles to our 7 if we win this year.

But, getting a second one and coming back to win 3 straight and 4 straight should remove the choker label forever. In terms of comebacks, is there any team with a better history?

#45 Flask N Gaggin'

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:50 AM

If the sox go on and beat the Rockies, I think that for the first time in my lifetime, my attitude towards the team I'm rooting for in relation to the Yankees will take on an entirely new feeling, and I just might to some degree be able to lessen my obsession with the Yankees losing all the time.

If, however, the Rockies win, it's gonna piss me off again that all those Yankee fans will be gloating the same way i did when Beckett beat them even after that awful loss that we suffered in 2003. I want to have two championships to their 0 in this century safely tucked away in my back pocket before next year begins. And then I can really enjoy all their managerial shenanigans, signings I hope they lose out on, etc. It will be some off season.



Drocca: I've spent 55 years of my life dying over every Yankee win. I'm not a lifetime Sox fan like many of you, since I joined only in 1988, and mainly because they are the Yankees chief rival. I will admit to still caring at least as much about Yankee losses as I do Red sox wins. The thread asked about an image changing. My image of my team versus the Yankees, a team that always killed my hopes from way back when I was a Brooklyn Dodger fan, and then having to watch their annoying fans gloat about it all the time, will definitely change. Far less odd a reaction than you think, especially in a thread that began by asking when the team's image would change. It will be a pleasure for me to be able to talk with yankee fans from a position of strength for a change. I've waited a long time for that, and I thank the Red sox for it.



I'm also with Zup, as 1) I grew up in an area full of Yankees fans and 2) it was my hatred of the Yankees and their fans that first led me towards the direction of the Red Sox. I still routinely deal with a handful of Yankees fans.

If the Sox win this upcoming series, we won't have to hear Yankees fans play the retarded, "It'll be 86 years before they win another one" card.



I'm not having a go at you two, as you are entitled to your own opinions. But most of this choker label comes from this kind of losers mentality and Yankee obsession that is prevelant among many Sox fans. I love seeing the Yankees fail, but at the end of the day, I root for the Sox because they are the Sox, not so you can score some points over some Yankees fans. I for one can't wait until this sad obession disappears forever. You could see it even here when 78 came up over and over again- "But you didn't live through it, etc......" I was so happy the Yanks lost to the Indians because it meant a normal ALCS, which meant that we could focus on baseball, not "the rivalry".

#46 Worst Trade Evah


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:53 AM

Sean McAdam agrees
Linky


Good conclusion from McAdam too:

They led the division from the beginning, held off the Yankees in September, rolled over the Angels in the first round and didn’t buckle when they took some hard shots from the Indians early in the ALCS.

They’re not weighed down by any history other than their own, which, let the record show, is pretty darned good.


Schilling had some comments about makeup, and it'd be interesting to find out in the future exactly how the FO approaches that. I do think it's about more than collecting good OPS guys at good prices. I mean, when you can get a good OPS guy you do it -- I'd probably take a shot at Albert Belle in his day -- but there's probably something there more than we know about.

#47 jacklamabe65


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:04 PM

See Zup's Theory on Horrible Losses. We haven't had many recently, that's for sure.

#48 LahoudOrBillyC


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:30 PM

The more interesting question has always been about how Red Sox fans view themselves. The "choker" label was worn by Red Sox fans mostly because they chose to wear it. The day the Red Sox fans approach an upcoming Yankee series based solely on the quality of the teams is the day it is over. I sense we are not there yet.

#49 Punchado


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 01:01 PM

I'm certainly still wounded by the Yankees, but after 04, it's really more of a cranky old knee that acts up as opposed to a horrible compound fracture that someone keeps kicking.

As for the Red Sox in general, I certainly don't have any of that feeling I had before 2004 that they were going to find a way to lose and kill me.

#50 sfip


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Posted 22 October 2007 - 01:10 PM

Slight clarification: I wouldn't agree with Zup's "first time in my lifetime..." part. The entire new feeling already hit in '04. A win this year would add on to that feeling.

As for the "choker" label, I always felt it was a false stereotype even before '04. The aforementioned comebacks of '86 ALCS, '99 ALDS and '03 ALDS already countered that stereotype in my book.