849 replies to this topic

[David Laurila]

While there are plenty of people here who understand the gravity and magnitude of this report, and what it means for the game going forward, I fear that there are others who simply wish to see the entire Yankees' roster on the report, along with a smattering of other players they dislike, and beyond that they could care less (any Red Sox players on the list would be in error, or there would be an excusable reason for their inclusion). I suppose that's understandable on a certain level, but if you feel that way you might want to take a step back and think about this a little more.

[Kitchkinet]

Hey, as long as some of the blame is laid on the Commish, the owners and the PA for allowing this to happen--which seems like will be the case--I for one don't care who gets named.

[xjack]

I fear that there are others who simply wish to see the entire Yankees' roster on the report, along with a smattering of other players they dislike, and beyond that they could care less (any Red Sox players on the list would be in error, or there would be an excusable reason for their inclusion).

I think it's obvious there are going to be Red Sox named -- starting with Clemens, Canseco and Mo Vaughn.

If it turns out that current or '04 Sox are named, I'll be disappointed but I still think it all needs to come out.

Fans have a right to know what they're watching. As far as I'm concerned, players should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies, without penalty, so long as it's fully disclosed. Otherwise, fans are essentially being tricked into believing they're watching level competition when they're not.

Edited by xjack, 13 December 2007 - 10:09 AM.

[hescores21]

His last year with the Sox was 1996. Why would you think that steroids were not an issue in the mid-nineties?

Well apparently this trainer, who according to Kevin Kernan Oon ESPN First Take just now, the trainer was very close to Clemens and he supplied him with steroids when he was on the Yankees and BEFORE he came to the Yankees.

The names don't mattter as long as their are more than utility players and minor leaguers named, which it seems to me are the only ones to ever get named as failing MLB's drug policies.

[ifmanis5]

a good source tells me that Roger Clemens is on the list.

[joewoodfan]

I generally agree, but how are you going to feel if Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Joe Girardi, Clemens, Mariano Rivera, John Wetteland, etc are all named? As a Sox fan finishing second to these guys year after year is suddenly going to mean something entirely different. I am in no way saying all these guys will be on the list, but what if they were and no Red Sox from the same time period were? I would be upset.

-PP

I guess that's the thing. If I saw those names, I by no means would consider it exhaustive. Those are the guys that have been implicated in a sport-wide problem. For the Red Sox to come out clean on the report wouldn't really change my perception of the past games, etc. To me, most of ballplayers are doped up anyway, whether it's PEDs, amphetimines, or ginseng and 3 personal trainers.

'03 will hurt just as much, not more. '04 will matter to me just as much, not more.

It would hurt, though, to see someone coming from nothing through steroids. The personal stories of overcoming hardship to live a dream is where I'm a sucker.

Edited by joewoodfan, 13 December 2007 - 10:12 AM.

[Who is Dana Williams]

Espn is reporting now on sportscenter that Clemens is indeed on the list.
This in going to get ugly for mlb.

[juniormint1918]

One thing is for sure, which is that any negative outcome we can dream up will happen in some isolated instance. Mitchell wil be accused of bias by troglodytes like Dibble; players who aren't on the list will say they are clean; and the mudslinging and stonings will be televised. This has been so poorly handled that there is no real possibility of a soft landing.

The only thing we can count on is the short attention span of our fellow Americans, who actually don't care about steroids despite their claims to the contrary, hence the ever-expanding revenues and attendances of the past 10 years. After Volume II of Hasselfhoff videos hit E!News, this will be water under the bridge...

[Talon]

The names don't mattter as long as their are more than utility players and minor leaguers named, which it seems to me are the only ones to ever get named as failing MLB's drug policies.

Well sadly there always needs to be a scapegoat in all of these. Actually I think that might be the only thing about this that may piss me off. Like what if this whole list turns out to be players like Wally Joyner - players at the very end of their careers who made the mistake to use them once or twice in order to play another season or to make a team out of ST.

Thats a total possibility because it makes life easy for Mitchell, MLB and MLBPA.

[hescores21]

Espn is reporting now on sportscenter that Clemens is indeed on the list.
This in going to get ugly for mlb.

Welcome to the thread.

[Drocca]

The point I think I am trying to get across is, it's going to turn into a mudslingers ball and it's going to wind up degenerating into "CLEMENS USED DURING HIS WHOLE CAREER" and even though Steroids were a problem (however much smaller in the early 1990's as they were now) it should also be noted that a vast majority of the users were pocketed to the California Bay Area.

Where are you getting this information?

[Talon]

Where are you getting this information?

Well Game of Shadows & the BALCO proceedings is a good start.

[juniormint1918]

Reason 267 of 15,874 why I Hate Bud Selig:

"Vincent had tried to crack down on steroids in his last year as the commissioner. In June 1991, he sent every major league club a memorandum saying all illegal drug use was “strictly prohibited” by law, “cannot be condoned or tolerated” and could result in discipline or expulsion. Vincent specifically highlighted steroids in the memo.

The next year, Selig became commissioner. Through the 1990s, even as newspapers reported that as many as one in five baseball players used steroids, Selig and the union played down the issue. “If baseball has a problem, I must say candidly that we were not aware of it,” Selig said in 1995."

http://www.nytimes.c...b...nyt&emc=rss

[Drocca]

Well Game of Shadows & the BALCO proceedings is a good start.

Right, but you were saying it was mostly confined. I'm not sure I understand. I read Game of Shadows and am very familiar with the BALCO investigation. You do realize, that there are other labs, sources, dealers, ect...,ect..,ect... and to say it was confined to one region of baseball is dumb as a fucking doornail.

[Fred not Lynn]

Fans have a right to know what they're watching. As far as I'm concerned, players should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies, without penalty, so long as it's fully disclosed. Otherwise, fans are essentially being tricked into believing they're watching level competition when they're not.

What a totally selfish outlook. You realize that if players are allowed to use whatever they like, that essentially makes use of dangerous substances and practices MANDATORY for any player who wants to reach the major leagues, right? If everyone is allowed to use anything, than everyone WILL have to use everything - and then some people will use too much of some things - and drop dead.

Any kid playing the game, even in Little League will have to be prepared to engage in dangerous and unhealthy doping practices to reach a higher level. Never mind the dead guys, heart attacks, bitch tits, retarded kids and shrunken 'nads - it's all OK, as long as the fans know they're watching a level competition.

[Talon]

Right, but you were saying it was mostly confined. I'm not sure I understand. I read Game of Shadows and am very familiar with the BALCO investigation. You do realize, that there are other labs, sources, dealers, ect...,ect..,ect... and to say it was confined to one region of baseball is dumb as a fucking doornail.

I should have elaborated. I meant during Clemens time with the Red Sox, as far as any of us know, was confined to that area.

[Kitchkinet]

Well apparently this trainer, who according to Kevin Kernan Oon ESPN First Take just now, the trainer was very close to Clemens and he supplied him with steroids when he was on the Yankees and BEFORE he came to the Yankees.

Just because it's "before the Yankees" doesn't mean "the Red Sox". Remember, he was with the Blue Jays before we was with the Yankees, too. And didn't see his resurgence until 1997--the year he started in Toronto. He was 10-13 in 1996 with a 1.327 WHIP. In 1997, his WHIP went down to near 1.0 and he was 21-7, his ERA going down from 3.63 to 2.05.

Edited by Kitchkinet, 13 December 2007 - 10:22 AM.

[Resonance Wright]

Given that there are already Red Sox players who have been linked to steroids in the past I expect there will be names of Red Sox players (hopefully all former) who juiced. Does the name Jose Canseco ring any bells? Yeah. He played for the Sox too.

He was also at one time an MVP as was Barry Bonds and a few other folks.

For me the only thing I've heard worth the knowing so far is the statement that there are more pitchers than hitters in the report.


This report is cosmetic to some degree. MLB will spin it as having done something -- it's clear that they're hoping with one good warning shot across the bow, the steroids problem will begin sorting itself out. As for me, I'm not so sanguine -- sure, some good will come of it, but as long as good players, and the kids who emulate them, think that taking steroids will be a good idea, we're still in trouble.

My hope: this report begins a push toward comprehensive, USADA-style drug testing in MLB.

[Jnai]

Given that there are already Red Sox players who have been linked to steroids in the past I expect there will be names of Red Sox players (hopefully all former) who juiced. Does the name Jose Canseco ring any bells? Yeah. He played for the Sox too.

If Senator Mitchell spent millions of dollars and conducted a long investigation to find Jose Canseco used steroids, that only confirms he's a perfectly good politician in my book.

[Talon]

My hope: this report begins a push toward comprehensive, USADA-style drug testing in MLB.

Which will never happen. Trust me, Dick Pound has been trying for years and has never gotten anywhere despite current MLB players failing WADA tests.

[Cyberlibrarian]

What a totally selfish outlook. You realize that if players are allowed to use whatever they like, that essentially makes use of dangerous substances and practices MANDATORY for any player who wants to reach the major leagues, right? If everyone is allowed to use anything, than everyone WILL have to use everything - and then some people will use too much of some things - and drop dead.

Any kid playing the game, even in Little League will have to be prepared to engage in dangerous and unhealthy doping practices to reach a higher level. Never mind the dead guys, heart attacks, bitch tits, retarded kids and shrunken 'nads - it's all OK, as long as the fans know they're watching a level competition.

Two words: Lyle Alzado.

[EddieYost]

Clemens is in the report per rotoworld...

http://www.rotoworld...g...598&id=1417

[CoolPapaBellhorn]

Clemens is in the report per rotoworld...

http://www.rotoworld...g...598&id=1417

And ESPN.

I don't care if this makes me a bad person - I'm ecstatic to hear this.

[Kitchkinet]

What a totally selfish outlook. You realize that if players are allowed to use whatever they like, that essentially makes use of dangerous substances and practices MANDATORY for any player who wants to reach the major leagues, right? If everyone is allowed to use anything, than everyone WILL have to use everything - and then some people will use too much of some things - and drop dead.

Any kid playing the game, even in Little League will have to be prepared to engage in dangerous and unhealthy doping practices to reach a higher level. Never mind the dead guys, heart attacks, bitch tits, retarded kids and shrunken 'nads - it's all OK, as long as the fans know they're watching a level competition.

That would make baseball as depressing to follow as professional wrestling.

[jmm57]

If he were eligible this year.....would he be voted into the Hall of Fame after this?

I would have thought that McGwire was a lock, but was kept out because of steroids.....is Clemens too good to keep out? If one guy with steroids alligations gets in, what does that mean for all the others?

[Fred not Lynn]

Two words: Lyle Alzado.

Two more: Heidi Krieger

[Manny's Hammies]

Fans have a right to know what they're watching. As far as I'm concerned, players should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies, without penalty, so long as it's fully disclosed. Otherwise, fans are essentially being tricked into believing they're watching level competition when they're not.

I'm not going to say that's "selfish" -- but I bet you also think that billionaires should be able to give as much of their fortunes to politicians as they want.

Which, perhaps ironically, would only serve to undermine the politician conducting this investigation all the more.

[hescores21]

Just because it's "before the Yankees" doesn't mean "the Red Sox". Remember, he was with the Blue Jays before we was with the Yankees, too. And didn't see his resurgence until 1997--the year he started in Toronto. He was 10-13 in 1996 with a 1.327 WHIP. In 1997, his WHIP went down to near 1.0 and he was 21-7, his ERA going down from 3.63 to 2.05.

Well then he must have stopped using during his first 4 years in NY, right? Those 1996 numbers are as good or better than his first 4 years in NY which were after his two years in Toronto. In fact, his ERA+ was better that year than ANY year in NY.

[JimD]

If MLB and the Players Association were smart, they would hold a big press conference and announce that baseball will adopt the NFL's drug policy. Anyone with a brain suspects that football players are far bigger users of PED's than baseball players, but the NFL's policy sounds tough and experience has shown that no one really cares even when star players like Shawn Merriman are caught and suspended. It's all about perception.

[Kitchkinet]

Well then he must have stopped using during his first 4 years in NY, right? Those 1996 numbers are as good or better than his first 4 years in NY which were after his two years in Toronto. In fact, his ERA+ was better that year than ANY year in NY.

Actually he has a career ERA of 3.53 at Yankee Stadium, compared to 3.16 at Fenway, 2.71 at Skydome and 2.55 at Minute Maid. It probably more reflects his (relative) sucktitude at the Toilet.

Edited by Kitchkinet, 13 December 2007 - 10:44 AM.

[Papis Walkoff]

And ESPN.

I don't care if this makes me a bad person - I'm ecstatic to hear this.

No Yankee HOF hat for him!

[JohntheBaptist]

I think we're all clear on Clemens being named. It's a big 10-4 on that. Loud and clear.

Question, though- if these sources know one name, why aren't they reporting all of them? Why leak one name?

[bsj]

FYI, I just started a thread on this in the Yankees forum...Pettitte is in the report as well.

[Kitchkinet]

FYI, I just started a thread on this in the Yankees forum...Pettitte is in the report as well.

Well, there goes the notion that his re-signing had anything to do with him not being in the report.

[The Big Red Kahuna]

This "list" is making the rounds on my bberg screen... no idea where source is, so can't confirm:

"Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood."

Edited by The Big Red Kahuna, 13 December 2007 - 10:50 AM.

[hescores21]

FYI, I just started a thread on this in the Yankees forum...Pettitte is in the report as well.

Where was this reported? If true, this makes a lot of sense. It is well known that they were extremely close and were "workout buddies". If true that more pitchers will be named, this only helps guys like Bonds and Mcgwire.

Hopefully the PLAYERS will push for the union to agree to more stringent testing and finally get baseball moving in the right direction.

[bsj]

This "list" is making the rounds on my bberg screen... no idea where source is, so can't confirm:

Damon
Nixon
Nomar
TEK?

Edited by bsj, 13 December 2007 - 10:50 AM.

[Clears Cleaver]

I got the same list...the source is pretty solid, but we'll have to see

no one surprises me

Edited by Clears Cleaver, 13 December 2007 - 10:50 AM.

[The Big Red Kahuna]

Damon? Hmmmm

If that list I posted is verified, the 4th to last bums me out....

[bsj]

Yep edited my post...didnt read the whole list initially...

[bsj]

If this is the list...then yeah, this IS pretty earthshattering...No ARod...but Pujols.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This "list" is making the rounds on my bberg screen... no idea where source is, so can't confirm:

Players with Sox ties:

Brady Anderson,
Manny Alexander
Dante Bichette
Wil Cordero
Jose Canseco
Roger Clemens
Paxton Crawford
Johnny Damon
Carl Everett
Rich Garces
Eric Gagne
Nomar Garciaparra
Jeremy Giambi
Trot Nixon
Jose Offerman
Julian Tavarez
Maurice Vaughn
Jason Varitek

[Foulkey Reese]

Tek doesn't really shock me

Other then Clemens and Pettitte why is it such a bad day for NY?

Nobody is going to care about Damon and Farnsworth

[Drocca]

I just got that list via email from someone. Same list, same format. Either someone is having a lot of fun today or it's been leaked.

[DukeSox]

I got the same list...the source is pretty solid, but we'll have to see

no one surprises me

Varitek, Prior, Wood among some surprises...

[PseuFighter]

in the interest of fairness and at the risk of contempt, anything more on this source?

[Youks Baltic Roots]

I will admit it would not be a shock, but Varitek being on the list would kind of suck.

[Lollardfish]

When viewing the list (I'm ignoring the lists of names until the report goes official. It's only a couple of hours), it'll be handy to compare it to the list from "The Steroid Era" blog.

Here's the list.

[Cyberlibrarian]

Oh no. Not Tek.

But Damon makes me a little happier.

[Drocca]

in the interest of fairness and at the risk of contempt, anything more on this source?

I can say, because it was sent like 18th party to me that it appears to have been from the lawfirm Mitchell is employed at. I mean, copies of this list have to be made and Mitchell isn't the one doing the copying.