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ALDS Umpiring Crew


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#1 Talon


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:00 PM

the umpiring crew for the series will be headed by crew chief Gary Darling. Joining him will be Tim Tschida, Dan Iassogna, Brian Runge, Ted Barrett and CB Bucknor - who will be making his post season debut.

Hopefully Bucknor does not see the plate during the series.

#2 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:05 PM

the umpiring crew for the series will be headed by crew chief Gary Darling. Joining him will be Tim Tschida, Dan Iassogna, Brian Runge, Ted Barrett and CB Bucknor - who will be making his post season debut.

Hopefully Bucknor does not see the plate during the series.


You know he'll have the plate for Dicek's start :)

#3 RedOctober3829


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:06 PM

the umpiring crew for the series will be headed by crew chief Gary Darling. Joining him will be Tim Tschida, Dan Iassogna, Brian Runge, Ted Barrett and CB Bucknor - who will be making his post season debut.

Hopefully Bucknor does not see the plate during the series.

Oh great. We get Tschida who screwed up a HR call last night and CB Bucknor who is absolutely terrible. What a horrible crew.

#4 MidnightC

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:17 PM

Iassogna too? Oh that's just GREAT. He botched several calls in a Sox/Oakland game earlier this year, enough to get Francona pissed off and get ejected for arguing. Rotoworld, June 7th:

Wakefield wasn't aided by perhaps the worst umpiring performance we've seen this year, courtesy of Dan Iassogna. It wasn't that he was biased. It's just that he'd randomly call pitches 6-12 inches above the belt strikes and ignore those at the knees. Further enraged by two incidents -- a HBP against Wakefield when Mark Ellis obviously leaned into a knuckleball and a check-swing third strike against David Ortiz that Iassogna called on his own, even though the replay showed that Ortiz didn't go -- Red Sox manager Terry Francona finally had enough in the eighth, getting himself tossed when a curveball that wouldn't have been in Richie Sexson's zone was called a strike against 5-foot-7 Dustin Pedroia.


Link

This series should be fun.

Edited by MidnightC, 02 October 2007 - 08:20 PM.


#5 DavidWellsAteNelson

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:24 PM

Iassogna too? Oh that's just GREAT. He botched several calls in a Sox/Oakland game earlier this year, enough to get Francona pissed off and get ejected for arguing. Rotoworld, June 7th:
Link

This series should be fun.


I recall that game vividly, and the Rotoworld report is not far off. The called K to Pedroia was particularly outrageous.

I'm fine with having the odd bad umpiring performance during the regular season. There are a lot of games to be played and you can't expect everyone to be great, but this is supposed to be the best of the best. CB Bucknor AND Iassogna?

#6 CoRP

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:31 PM

CB Bucknor is making his postseason debut because he's just about the best at what he does. Kind of like his first name is just about the best form of communication and his last name is just about the best name in postseason fielding (and spelling). Put them together and its just magic. CB Bucknor, the legend continues. I for one, can't wait to see him behind the plate.

#7 NYCSox


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 08:31 PM

All we need is Chris Guccione and Phil Cuzzi to complete the crew of suckitude.

#8 TallerThanPedroia


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:00 PM

the umpiring crew for the series will be headed by crew chief Gary Darling. Joining him will be Tim Tschida, Dan Iassogna, Brian Runge, Ted Barrett and CB Bucknor - who will be making his post season debut.

Hopefully Bucknor does not see the plate during the series.


I looked at Schilling's, and I think Dice-K's, home plate umpires earlier in the season and saw that we definitely got stuck with either the average guys, or the tight zone guys.

Strikes/Pitches (ascending, so #1 is the fewest strikes per pitches, out of 68 guys with 400+ IP)

#2 Bucknor
#15 Tschida
#41 Barrett
#42 Darling
#44 Iassogna
#45 Runge

The overall average corresponds with about #31 on the list.

#9 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:11 PM

how does a guy like Bucknor get to ump in the postseason? HE is noticably the worst ump of the last ten or more years.

Willits is a tougher out than Matthews, although not the fielder. I don't think this is a big deal for them. Basically the key to this series is keeping the guys ahead of Vlad off the bases and the guy behind him from driving him after he walks

#10 Big Guapo Style

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 05:07 AM

See my avatar for evidence of Tschida's lack of ability. Consider me frightened of this crew.

#11 soshadmin


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:04 AM

breaking out

#12 BoSoxLady


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:10 AM

I'm frightened by the prospect that this series might be decided by this crew. Do we know the rotation? I'll vomit in my mouth if I see CB behind the plate.

#13 ThePlantLady

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:16 AM

His nickname is Consistenly. Bad. Bucknor

#14 Nuf Ced


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:22 AM

I'm curious to know who SoSHers would consider fair and consistent umpires? Is there anyone we wouldn't criticize?

#15 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:35 AM

I'd like umps with wide strike zones when Matsuzaka or Lester pitches. But that's about what is best for my team.

In general, the best umps are the ones you don't notice, so I'd be fine with any umps who haven't made several really noticeable bad calls this year.

I'd like to see Sox playoff games go to umps who aren't universally mocked for being terrible (like Bucknor) or who hadn't been so bad in a Sox game this that mild mannered Terry Francona got tossed because of their ridiculous strike zone (Iassonga.)

And after the 1999 postseason, I never want Tim Cheater to ump another Sox playoff game, but here he is.

I don't think anyone's complaining about Darling, Barrett or Runge.

Yet. :)

Edited by The Gray Eagle, 03 October 2007 - 07:36 AM.


#16 FortyFive


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:44 AM

I'm curious to know who SoSHers would consider fair and consistent umpires? Is there anyone we wouldn't criticize?


I like Joe West, I've always thought he was a good ump (fair). I thought the crew in the 2004 ALCS was great - West, Randy Marsh, Jeff Nelson, John Hirschbeck.

Also, Ed Rapuano - the guy behind the plate for the Pedro-Clemens Memorial Day game who was injured mid-inning and stuck it out for the remainder of the inning to avoid disrupting the "flow" of the game.

I am not a fan of the crew for this ALDS though - Tschida was beyond terrible in the 1999 ALCS, and Iassogna umped one of the worst-called games of this year.

#17 LynnRoyalRooter

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:50 AM

Strikes/Pitches (ascending, so #1 is the fewest strikes per pitches, out of 68 guys with 400+ IP)

#2 Bucknor
#15 Tschida
#41 Barrett
#42 Darling
#44 Iassogna
#45 Runge


I would actually argue that having Bucknor as the home plate ump would HELP a ton in this series as he calls a very tight zone. The Red Sox hitters are much more likely to take advantage of that having led the league in BB. With a pitcher like Escobar on a soft pitch count due to his shoulder issues toward the end of the year this could cause him to throw extra pitches, getting him out of the game earlier.

Additionally, a pitcher like Schilling wouldn't mind a tight strike zone because he has fantastic control (his main strength at this point in his career) combined with the Angels hacktastic style, which admittedly took a hit with the replacement of Matthews with Willits.

#18 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 07:57 AM

I like Joe West, I've always thought he was a good ump (fair). I thought the crew in the 2004 ALCS was great - West, Randy Marsh, Jeff Nelson, John Hirschbeck.

Also, Ed Rapuano - the guy behind the plate for the Pedro-Clemens Memorial Day game who was injured mid-inning and stuck it out for the remainder of the inning to avoid disrupting the "flow" of the game.

I am not a fan of the crew for this ALDS though - Tschida was beyond terrible in the 1999 ALCS, and Iassogna umped one of the worst-called games of this year.

Hirschbeck was the guy who initially screwed up the ARod slap play, though. I agree that he's generally a good ump. Jim Joyce was the guy who missed the Bellhorn HR to left in that game and got overruled by West.

I know that he messed up the end of the Rockies-Padres game big time, but I've always been a fan of Tim McClelland's work. Yeah, he's got a slow strike call, but he's the best home plate ump in the game today.

#19 Kitchkinet

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:02 AM

C.B. Bucknor


I thought they used QuesTec to evaluate umps for postseason jobs.

Apparently QuesTec has worse eyes than most umps.

#20 hair and cheese

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:05 AM

I am shocked Bucknor is umpiring in the Major Leagues let alone in the post season. I have extra innings and watch a lot of out of town games. Every time he is behind the plate one or both pitchers get screwed. Not only is Bucknor confrontational but he is inconsistent. His strike zone will start to get bigger around the six inning. This crew has a few other thugs in it, but Bucknor, by far is the worst umpire in baseball. He should be getting canned this post season not umpiring in it.

http://www.petitiono...gned.cgi?cbbuck

#21 Harry Hooper


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:17 AM

I thought they used QuesTec to evaluate umps for postseason jobs.

Apparently QuesTec has worse eyes than most umps.



No one's talking on the record, but it sure seems like QuesTec has been de-emphasized once Alderson stopped supervising umps.

#22 mr guido

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:34 AM

According to an '03 players poll:

19. Who's the best umpire?
Tim McClelland	 22.0%
Jim Joyce		   9.2%
Ed Rapuano		  8.9%
John Hirschbeck	 8.0%
Ted Barrett		 4.8%
Mark Hirschbeck	 4.5%

Who's the worst?
C.B. Bucknor		20.7%
Bruce Froemming	 16.1%
Joe Brinkman		 8.0%
Joe West			 7.0%
Phil Cuzzi		   4.7%
Angel Hernandez	  4.7%

Edited by mr guido, 03 October 2007 - 08:34 AM.


#23 bmacfarlane


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:38 AM

Oh great. We get Tschida who screwed up a HR call last night and CB Bucknor who is absolutely terrible. What a horrible crew.

The call in the Rockies game? Tschida got it right. Bucknor on the other hand is troublesome but he's consistently troublesome.

#24 DeltaForce

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:51 AM

The call in the Rockies game? Tschida got it right.

Are you talking about the call on the ball that hit something (a wheelchair?) over the fence in left? They certainly did not get that call right --- the ball cleared the fence, and was called a double.

#25 bmacfarlane


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:54 AM

Are you talking about the call on the ball that hit something (a wheelchair?) over the fence in left? They certainly did not get that call right --- the ball cleared the fence, and was called a double.

That's the one and replays appeared to clearly show it hitting the yellow line and coming back.

#26 Doug Beerabelli


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 08:56 AM

Was Bob Watson involved in the choosing the umpiring crews?

#27 Kitchkinet

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:01 AM

No one's talking on the record, but it sure seems like QuesTec has been de-emphasized once Alderson stopped supervising umps.

It's become nothing more than an enhancement to Gameday.

#28 DeltaForce

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:02 AM

That's the one and replays appeared to clearly show it hitting the yellow line and coming back.

The yellow line was padded. The ball hit something hard. Replays showed the ball go behind the fence, dip slightly below the fence line, and shoot back on to the field. I can't tell what it hit --- it looked like it hit the arm of the wheelchair, but that's not obvious --- but it certainly didn't hit the padded yellow line. That was an obvious blown call.

#29 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:10 AM

The yellow line was padded. The ball hit something hard. Replays showed the ball go behind the fence, dip slightly below the fence line, and shoot back on to the field. I can't tell what it hit --- it looked like it hit the arm of the wheelchair, but that's not obvious --- but it certainly didn't hit the padded yellow line. That was an obvious blown call.

I thought it hit the metal railing that the yellow pad was resting on. In any case they blew the call. I thought Ripken had a great point in saying that the OF umps are usually positioned far too close to the INF to make those calls easily, particularly in a park with a huge OF like Coors. There's no good reason why an OF ump should blow that call (or the Bellhorn HR in 2004 either).

#30 Lollardfish

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:12 AM

The yellow line was padded. The ball hit something hard. Replays showed the ball go behind the fence, dip slightly below the fence line, and shoot back on to the field. I can't tell what it hit --- it looked like it hit the arm of the wheelchair, but that's not obvious --- but it certainly didn't hit the padded yellow line. That was an obvious blown call.


I'm just far less worried about umpires missing a HR than people with capricious, erratic, strikezones. Nothing messes with the game more than an uneven strikezone.

#31 Section15Box113

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:22 AM

Here are the umpires for the other AL Div Series per Peter Abraham:

Plate: Bruce Froemming (crew chief)
First: Laz Diaz
Second: Ron Kulpa
Third: Fieldin Culbreth
Left: Gerry Davis
Right: Jim Wolf

Abraham link

#32 InsideTheParker


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:24 AM

I think you guys are missing the point here.

According to Bud Selig, bad, inconsistent, and even whimsical umpiring is part of the Great History of the Game.


Okay, he didn't use those adjectives. . .

Edited by InsideTheParker, 03 October 2007 - 09:24 AM.


#33 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:28 AM

I thought it hit the metal railing that the yellow pad was resting on. In any case they blew the call. I thought Ripken had a great point in saying that the OF umps are usually positioned far too close to the INF to make those calls easily, particularly in a park with a huge OF like Coors. There's no good reason why an OF ump should blow that call (or the Bellhorn HR in 2004 either).


I must've watched that replay a dozen times. It didn't even look ambiguous to me. Ball clears fence, hits a wheelchair parked just beyond the fence, bounces back on to the field. Blatantly blown call that almost cost the Rockies their season, until another blatantly blown call ressurrected it.

#34 Ted Cox 4 president

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:41 AM

After Ripken mentioned it between innings, TV shots down the foul lines showed just how close the two extra umpires are to 1st base and 3rd base. They looked downright silly.

And speaking of the HR-turned-into- a-double, we all know how a HR can bounce off the top edge of the Monster back onto the field and be called a double. Just ask J.D. Drew.

#35 Myt1


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:48 AM

No one's talking on the record, but it sure seems like QuesTec has been de-emphasized once Alderson stopped supervising umps.

Per Selig's interview on PTI yesterday, Questec is being expanded to every MLB park next season.

#36 Pumpsie


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:50 AM

I'm frightened by the prospect that this series might be decided by this crew. Do we know the rotation? I'll vomit in my mouth if I see CB behind the plate.


omigod. What an awful crew.

Bucknor's the worst umpire in baseball and Issogna's not that far behind. Tschida's made a lot of famously bad calls in his day. How are they still in the rotation?

MLB is so damn stupid, it's infuriating.

With Alderson as umpiring chief, the quality of the umpiring got noticeably and progressively better and better with each passing year. Since Alderson left, the umpiring has gotten noticeably and progressively worse.

Port took over for Alderson, didn't he? He's done a terrible job.

I also will be sweating the umpiring in this series. I wonder what the ballplayers and coaches think?

#37 Section15Box113

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:51 AM

the umpiring crew for the series will be headed by crew chief Gary Darling. Joining him will be Tim Tschida, Dan Iassogna, Brian Runge, Ted Barrett and CB Bucknor - who will be making his post season debut.

Hopefully Bucknor does not see the plate during the series.


Since the rotation is RF => LF => 3B => 2B => 1B => HP, let's hope Bucknor is in right tonight.

Where do I not want to see him?
- 1B (behind the plate for Daisuke in Game 2)
- LF (behind the plate for potential Daisuke start in Game 5)

I think the inconsistent zone would drive Matsuzaka crazy and get him off his game.

Other than RF, where might I be able to deal?
- 2B (behind the plate for Schilling in Game 3)
- 3B (behind the plate for Beckett in Game 4)

More faith in the ability of both of these guys to adjust.

#38 tims4wins


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 09:58 AM

Here are the umpires for the other AL Div Series per Peter Abraham:

Plate: Bruce Froemming (crew chief)
First: Laz Diaz
Second: Ron Kulpa
Third: Fieldin Culbreth
Left: Gerry Davis
Right: Jim Wolf

Abraham link

Well, having CB ump in the Sox series may stink, but I can't stand either Froemming or Diaz. Diaz is the Cheech to CB Bucknor's Chong, and Froemming is a fat, immobile ump who is constantly out of position (and always takes at least one foul ball off a body part, resulting in a delay, although this doesn't actually impact his umpiring skill).

The rest of that crew seems fine, however. Given that Froemming is the crew chief and will be behind home plate for game 1, I wonder what the rotation of the umpires is? In the regular season, it goes home to third to second to first, but that probably will change given that there are LF and RF umps. So it seems like there is a fifty/fifty shot of CB Bucknor getting the call to umpire game five... yikes.

Edit: missed the previous post about the rotation... so yeah, let's pray that CB is in right tonight.

Edited by tims4wins, 03 October 2007 - 09:59 AM.


#39 The Napkin


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:20 AM

Would seem to make sense to me that since it's Bucknor's first time in the playoffs they'd start him in right so he could get the first series in without having to work the plate. Then again, it would makes sense to me for him to be calling the game from his living room.

#40 bmacfarlane


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:21 AM

I must've watched that replay a dozen times. It didn't even look ambiguous to me. Ball clears fence, hits a wheelchair parked just beyond the fence, bounces back on to the field. Blatantly blown call that almost cost the Rockies their season, until another blatantly blown call ressurrected it.

I take it back, I just watched the ESPN replay a dozen times and it did clear the fence, hit something and return. Ripken did call out the positioning of the umpires, as already noted, but I guess I can understand it based on the fact that I saw the replay and thought it was the right call at the time.

#41 mostman

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:23 AM

See my avatar for evidence of Tschida's lack of ability. Consider me frightened of this crew.


I was at that game. In the bleachers. I could see from where I was sitting that it was blown. It was so horrible.

If I remember correctly, that was the same game that O'Neil got pulled into the RF stands and general pandemonium struck Fenway. Shit being thrown on the field, people running on the field during the game, complete chaos.

I guess that is what MLB wants to see again. Bravo you bunch of douchebags.

#42 Section15Box113

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:37 AM

Looked at Sox vs. home plate umpires this season. Went series by series, so think I captured them all.

FWIW, starters' performances with each of these guys behind the plate:

5/15 DET (Darling): Wakefield - 7.0, 9H, 5R, 5ER, 1BB, 4K (L 7-2)

5/6 MIN (Tschida): Schilling - 6.2, 8H, 3R, 3ER, 2BB, 7K (W 4-3)

6/6 @Oak (Iassogna): Wakefield - 6.2, 7H, 3R, 3ER, 2BB, 8K (L 3-2)

4/27 @NYY (Runge): Matsuzaka - 6.0, 5H, 4R, 4ER, 4BB, 7K (W 11-4)
7/27 @TB (Runge): Wakefield - 6.0, 6H, 1R, 1ER, 3BB, 7K (W 7-1)

4/26 BAL (Barrett): Beckett - 8.0, 8H, 2R, 2ER, 0BB, 3K (W 5-2)
5/27 @Tex (Barrett): Tavarez - 5.2, 6H, 4R, 4ER, 1BB, 6K (W 6-5)

5/23 @NYY (Bucknor): Schilling - 6.0 IP, 12H, 6R, 5ER, 0BB, 3K (L 8-3)
7/23 @Cle (Bucknor): Lester - 6.0, 5H, 2R, 2ER, 3BB, 6K (W 6-2)
8/10 @Bal (Bucknor): Matsuzaka - 7.0, 4H, 1R, 1ER, 4BB, 7K (L 6-5)
8/31 BAL (Bucknor): Tavarez - 3.1, 7H, 4R, 4ER, 1BB, 0K (L 9-8)




Edit: sorted by umpire.

Edited by Section15Box113, 03 October 2007 - 10:39 AM.


#43 Fratboy


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:42 AM

Two things strike me as fascinating about this thread:

1) The Men in Blue, ideally, are invisible, but after batting 1.000 in the 2004 postseason (memory is fuzzy, but they got the big ones right), there has been at least one notable controversy in each postseason since, and two so far in 2007, and the post-season hasn't even really begun yet! It really says something when we fear that any given postseason series could turn one way or another on a single call.

2) The statistical analysis that's been done in terms of umpires' tendencies (THT, BP) is truly fascinating, and lends some insight as to how to optimize a pitching strategy in line with an individual ump's strengths and weaknesses.

That said, I pray Bucknor's in right.

BTW here's the crew from 2004 ALCS Game 6::

Umpires: HP - Joe West, 1B - Randy Marsh, 2B - Jeff Nelson, 3B - John Hirschbeck.

Did they have umpires in the OF that night? Seems odd they wouldn't for an LCS. I see Jim Joyce listed at 3B in Game 7. Bref/Retrosheet must not have that data captured.

#44 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:46 AM

Two things strike me as fascinating about this thread:

1) The Men in Blue, ideally, are invisible, but after batting 1.000 in the 2004 postseason (memory is fuzzy, but they got the big ones right), there has been at least one notable controversy in each postseason since, and two so far in 2007, and the post-season hasn't even really begun yet! It really says something when we fear that any given postseason series could turn one way or another on a single call.

2) The statistical analysis that's been done in terms of umpires' tendencies (THT, BP) is truly fascinating, and lends some insight as to how to optimize a pitching strategy in line with an individual ump's strengths and weaknesses.

That said, I pray Bucknor's in right.

BTW here's the crew from 2004 ALCS Game 6::

Umpires: HP - Joe West, 1B - Randy Marsh, 2B - Jeff Nelson, 3B - John Hirschbeck.

Did they have umpires in the OF that night? Seems odd they wouldn't for an LCS. I see Jim Joyce listed at 3B in Game 7. Bref/Retrosheet must not have that data captured.


Retrosheet has them all: Joe West, Randy Marsh, Jeff Nelson, John Hirschbeck, Jim Joyce, Jeff Kellogg. Joyce was in LF and blew the Bellhorn HR call.

#45 Fratboy


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:50 AM

Retrosheet has them all: Joe West, Randy Marsh, Jeff Nelson, John Hirschbeck, Jim Joyce, Jeff Kellogg. Joyce was in LF and blew the Bellhorn HR call.

My greater, unstated point was they conferred on their two blown calls and got them right.

#46 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 03:20 PM

I should point out that the fact that some of you can name a big call that an ump blew has about as much bearing on whether or not he's a good ump as naming a particularly bad at bat in a crucial spot by, say, Ted Wiilliams would have upon his being a good hitter.

If you're going to rail against one of these guys, please give us more than "i remember that call when....."

That being said, C.B. Bucknor. Wow

#47 Fratboy


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 05:39 PM

Per the broadcast, CB Bucknor in RF tonight. Wise move, I think.

#48 Section15Box113

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 06:13 PM

Since the rotation is RF => LF => 3B => 2B => 1B => HP, let's hope Bucknor is in right tonight.

Where do I not want to see him?
- 1B (behind the plate for Daisuke in Game 2)
- LF (behind the plate for potential Daisuke start in Game 5)

I think the inconsistent zone would drive Matsuzaka crazy and get him off his game.

Other than RF, where might I be able to deal?
- 2B (behind the plate for Schilling in Game 3)
- 3B (behind the plate for Beckett in Game 4)

More faith in the ability of both of these guys to adjust.


As Frat mentioned, Bucknor is in RF.
Here's the lineup with associated SP:

HP - Darling (G1-Beckett)
1B - Iassogna (G2-Matsuzaka)
2B - Runge (G3-Schilling)
3B - Barrett (G4-Beckett)
LF - Tschida (G5-Matsuzaka)

#49 Doza



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Posted 03 October 2007 - 06:19 PM

Two innings into this GD series and we have had two blown calls.

This crew is horrible.

Edited by Doza, 03 October 2007 - 06:19 PM.


#50 jsinger121


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Posted 03 October 2007 - 06:21 PM

Awful umpiring already.