24 replies to this topic

[AZBlue]

In addition to the ejection of David Ortiz Saturday, there have been quite a few occasions during the past two weeks when it was clear that David was disgusted with the size of the strike zone when he was batting. He has made post-game comments that were very critical of the strike zones of at least two umpires.

Has it ever benefited a major league player to take out his frustrations about ball and strike calls on the home plate umpire? No home plate umpire has ever responded to a complaint about the strike zone by saying, "Gee, I blew that call. I'm changing that called strike to a ball."

Does David really think that the strike zone is going to shrink because he expresses distress about called strikes? If anything, human nature being what it is (and the attitude of the typical umpire being nasty and confrontational), the strike zone will expand even more. Does David think that other umpires on a crew will respond well to his verbal complaints and negative body language? Does he think other umpiring crews will not give him "special attention" when they work Boston games?

He can help himself and the team more by simply focusing on the next pitch (or walking to the dugout if it is strike three). If nothing else, he will be batting five times a game instead of sitting on the bench after an ejection.

[Noah]

It would take a pretty vindictive umpire to expand his strike zone based on a complaining hitter, even subconsciously. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen ever, but I think MLB has done a pretty good job purging the league of those types of umpires after the labor issue a few years back.

In my opinion, I don't think Ortiz's constant complaining has an adverse effect on his strike zone, although it is a little annoying rooting for a guy like that sometimes. Not that I have a hard time rooting for David Ortiz, it's just that I'd rather he not, you know?

Youkilis would bitch constantly about the strike zone in the minor leagues, and last season, too. I think this year he's chilled out a lot, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that he is really a lot more aggressive this year, and he's just not taking as many of those close pitches anymore.

Edited by Noah, 17 June 2007 - 07:13 PM.

[Dogman2]

I think Ortiz's last two weeks leading up to Saturday's ejection were more of a function of his frustration in that the team was in a bit of a funk. Given that we did not see much of this agression toward strike callers earlier in the season, I tend to blame it on losing rather then umpire irrationality.

[bmacfarlane]

I don't think a hitter's first AB in the game is the time to complain about the strike zone. I always heard it's consistency that a hitter looks for in an umpire and if that strike in the first inning is still a strike in the ninth then a hitter has to adjust. Personally I don't like hitters crying about balls and strikes.

[johnmd20]

It would take a pretty vindictive umpire to expand his strike zone based on a complaining hitter, even subconsciously. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen ever, but I think MLB has done a pretty good job purging the league of those types of umpires after the labor issue a few years back.

It's subtle, but the strike zone being expanded out of spite happens, in my opinion. You get the umps on your bad side in the 1st inning and that is going to have an effect for the rest of the game. Maybe it's only 1 or 2 pitches, but that could be the difference between a win and a loss.

Therefore, why bait the guys who make the calls?

[Manny's Hammies]

Ok, but in fairness? Yesterday's game had about a three foot-wide strike zone. That 3-2 bases loaded K of Aurelia was absolutely ball four in any normal strike zone. No wonder Dice-K thought he pitched so well.

[OttoC]

From projo.com:

David Ortiz is doing himself no favors with his incessant complaining about balls and strikes, even on occasions like Friday night and yesterday when he has a valid case.

In a similar vein comes word from an umpiring source that Dustin Pedroia is fast earning the wrath of the men in blue. With umpires, rookies should be seen, not heard.

Hitter's Quirks Turn Game to Snail's Pace

[behindthepen]

The more tangible issue is that arguing with the umps can escalate into fights, like we saw in Anaheim in July 04, which led to a 5 game suspension. glob

[Midurty]

Has it ever benefited a major league player to take out his frustrations about ball and strike calls on the home plate umpire?

He can help himself and the team more by simply focusing on the next pitch (or walking to the dugout if it is strike three). If nothing else, he will be batting five times a game instead of sitting on the bench after an ejection.

Perhaps this is an overgeneralization, but umpires are a very proud people. If they feel slighted, they will absolutely expand their zones. Sometimes it does benefit a player to argue, but only if they have a case, and only if they do so calmly and rationally. Temper tantrums never help the team or the "victimized" player

No home plate umpire has ever responded to a complaint about the strike zone by saying, "Gee, I blew that call. I'm changing that called strike to a ball."

In fact, many times nowadays, the umpires will flat out tell hitters that look back angrily that they blew the call. At this point the hitter has no argument and will generally be fine with it. Efficient arguing will get one's team makeup calls, and keep the ump on his toes. If an ump blows a call, the next borderline pitch will probably be given to the previously victimized individual. However, if they handle it poorly, the next borderline call will also go against them.

I feel this also goes for pitchers as well, but pitchers tend to be much more practiced at dealing with umpires. Perhaps this is why they tend to get more borderline calls than batters do.

[E5 Yaz]

I rhink that players who complain or perceive that an umpire is inconsistent is actually damning the guy twice: Once that he doesn't know the strike zone, and again that somehow the ump is acting out of bias. It does a batter no good to act in such a fashion, especially if it's a player who does this constantly.

Papi and Jeter, for two, rarely think a called strike was actually a strike. It's annoying to watch either of them whince about a pitch call. the worst I can remember, though, was Will Clark, who would give the offending ump the type of stare that was demeaning w/o having to make a sound.

I thought Youk was going down this road when he first came up, but that seems to have tapered off. If Pedroia is being a drama queen, it'd be wise for a temmate to offer some friendly advice.

[Deathofthebambino]

David Ortiz has never seen a called strike that he agreed with. He may not actually say anything, but he regularly shakes his head, rolls his eyes, goes through his pre-setup routine (the spitting on his hands, clap thing) in a bit more agitated, aggravated fashion.

This is literally my only complaint with David Ortiz.

I can deal with it.

[JimBoSox9]

I'm glad this thread exists.

I'm a David Ortiz fan, but one thing that has really rubbed me the wrong way is the way Manny Ramirez gets criticized again and again and again for not playing the game right while Ortiz has basically gotten a free pass for any negative behavior.

That said, when you're a player of the stature and fame that Ortiz has, histronics are probably as likely to earn a make-up call from an umpire as earn a vindictive strike.

[Zupcic Fan]

The thing that I find most annoying about this is that frequently the pitches he bitches about are clearly borderline pitches that are called strikes by many if not most umpires.
How on earth does he think this is helping him. Plus, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who couldn't control those reactions if he wanted to. He seems to think that every borderline pitch should be called in his favor.

[trekfan55]

I think Ortiz should instead do the classic Jeter "move out of the way from a pitch that's clearly a strike" or the "that was clearly a ball outside so I'll just take my base, thank you very much" moves that I hate so much. I don;t know if the umpires would buy it and give him the call, but at least he'd have a better chance of not getting "blacklisted" by the umps.

[William Robertson]

My answer to the thread title question is a definite "yes," and as someone observed, it's about the only thing you can question Papi about. I guess, like a Harvard man, you can't tell Papi much, but for any young player willing to learn, I would just point to Manny and say, that's how you do it. Manny is the Mick Taylor of batters, too cool to emote.

[OilCanShotTupac]

While I agree with the premise of this thread, I thought it was a travesty that Ortiz got thrown out the other night. He had already gone back to the dugout and had stopped talking to the umpire. He had his back to the umpire and was at least 50 feet away. The confrontation had been over for some time. Ortiz didn't even know he had been tossed.

I suppose Ortiz has built up some bad karma with the umps for precisely the behavior that's being (justifiably) condemned here, but his ejection the other night was a case of an umpire going out of his way to look for trouble, IMO.

[Midurty]

While I agree with the premise of this thread, I thought it was a travesty that Ortiz got thrown out the other night. He had already gone back to the dugout and had stopped talking to the umpire. He had his back to the umpire and was at least 50 feet away. The confrontation had been over for some time. Ortiz didn't even know he had been tossed.

I suppose Ortiz has built up some bad karma with the umps for precisely the behavior that's being (justifiably) condemned here, but his ejection the other night was a case of an umpire going out of his way to look for trouble, IMO.

He would have probably remained in the game had he not tossed his equipment in the general direction of the umpire. As soon as that happens, a frustrated ump will toss them every time. Questionable: yes, but that's why if you're going to throw your equipment you throw it towards your own dugout.

[DosEquisMatsuzaka]

He would have probably remained in the game had he not tossed his equipment in the general direction of the umpire. As soon as that happens, a frustrated ump will toss them every time. Questionable: yes, but that's why if you're going to throw your equipment you throw it towards your own dugout.

He threw the equipment straight down so unless he was standing on top of the ump it was not in his direction.

[Ted Cox 4 president]

"He threw the equipment straight down so unless he was standing on top of the ump it was not in his direction."


I respectfully disagree. B.P. threw both his helmet and his bat back behind himself, in the direction he had come from--not at the umpire but more in the ump's direction than straight down to the ground. The ump was ready to toss him for any reason, and that was good enough of one.

David does seem more disputatious than necessary at times.

[AZBlue]

Link to interesting article on this topic sent by lurker Michael McCann (Harvard's Project on Law and Mind Sciences):

What's Eating David Ortiz?

[TheYaz67]

I have to imagine Ortiz's act is wearing pretty thim with the umps these days. Like all guys, I'm sure they discuss goofy things like "Top Ten" worst bitchers lists over postgame beers - can't imagine Ortiz doesn't make every ump's list. I'm fine if he wants to point out a bad call now and again (BTW, he often does seem to technically be correct, but as a previous poster said, you have to adjust to an ump's strike zone somewhat), just don't do it in such a way that appears to really be showing up the ump in the most public way possible....

[Arock78]

Link to interesting article on this topic sent by lurker Michael McCann (Harvard's Project on Law and Mind Sciences):

What's Eating David Ortiz?

True, Papi hasn't had a God-like clutch hit in a while, and true, he's been unhappy with umpires. But for heaven's sake, that doesn't mean his bitching is a means of rationalizing his feelings of inadequacy.

I've noticed him make faces over calls at the plate since 2003. Maybe some of our memories are selective, because we forgave him for it. From what I can remember, though there's been a handful examples of him being superlatively unhappy this year. But it isn't as though there's been zero in prior years either. Maybe they just weren't as loud.

This is taking everything of the small fraction of Papi's reality that we're actually privy to, and coming up with a simplistic explanation, linking the bits together. The article seems to me itself guilty of fundamental attribution error, or at least, I think there's a significant possibility of it.

[Rudy Pemberton]

It seems like the Sox batters complain about strikes more than the opposition; Ortiz and Youkilis strike me as typically bad offenders at this. But, maybe that's not really true. I doubt it matters too much but there's probably a right way and wrong way to going about it; Ortiz often gets close to the point of showing the ump up...but generally, he is given enough rope to get his complaints in (and guys like him surely are allowed to bitch more than a scrub or rookie). OTOH, I don't think this is all on the players....umpires have gotten a lot more demonstrative in making third strike calls (remember Crisp getting punched out where the umpire made a ridiculous show of it) which no one wants to see. Calling of balls and strikes seems to be a lot more unpredictable in the past few years, from ump to ump as well as within games, any evidence that this is true? Feels that way but may just be a perception thing.

The absolute worst at this is Mussina, and I do think it may hurt him. He constantly pisses and moans about every perceived slight and I have to think the umps hate it. My guess is that pitchers who are like this are more likely to be affected than batters; a batter who gets pissed off about a call has 2-3 innings to forget about it.

I think it is certainly true that Papi (as well as Youks, and Mussina & Jeter) have been this way for a long long time, though. Also may be a sign of great confidence at knowing the zone which isn't necessarily bad at all.

[samuelLsamson]

Also may be a sign of great confidence at knowing the zone which isn't necessarily bad at all.

That's a fair point. I also think that many elite sportsmen and women reach the top of their game in part because of their confidence that they know or see better than anyone else. John McEnroe used such confrontations to psych himself up (and others out), but more than that his complaining was a function of his utter confidence that he was an exceptional player, and the only reason he couldn't return a serve was if that serve was out, while his own returns could only miss if the line judge blew the call. Similarly David Ortiz is so confident in his ability to spot a strike versus a ball that when the umpire disagrees then the umpire must be wrong. It's part of what makes him such a force at the plate. I could wish for him to be less demonstrative about it, but I wouldn't change that part of him. Without it he wouldn't be the player he is.

[koufax32]

There have some some instances where Papi was just plain wrong about a percieved bad call. But more often than not he's been right. Yesterday's 3-1 pitch for instance...
With that said I think Papi has created this monster on his own. I have no way of proving this since an ump would never admit it but I think on a very close pitch an ump might think "well if I call it a ball Papi will think I'm caving to his whining. Just to show him I'm the boss..."strike!""
It has little to do with baseball and everything to do with human nature. The bottom line IMO is that he still shouldn't whine.