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Shawn Marion? ESPN at it again.


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#201 DJnVa


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 08:48 AM

If Phoenix wouldn't trade Amare directly to Minny in a package for KG, why are they going to trade him in a three-way? Just to get him out of the West? I doubt it. This all sounds like BS.


Well, that's believing one report (they won't trade him to Minn) and dismissing another (they may trade him). Not saying which, if either, is correct, but this is all speculation.

#202 moondog80


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 08:55 AM

I don't think Amare to the Celts is even a remote option, he goes to Atlanta in the Chad Ford rumor.

#203 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 08:59 AM

Except Amare is better than Jefferson in every aspect of the game.


Amare isn't a better rebounder.

#204 bsan34

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:00 AM

I don't think Amare to the Celts is even a remote option, he goes to Atlanta in the Chad Ford rumor.


It's not. We've just kind of gone off on that tangent.

#205 Jeff Van GULLY

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:06 AM

I don't think Amare to the Celts is even a remote option, he goes to Atlanta in the Chad Ford rumor.


Hey it's just arguing for argument's sake.

Paul/Marion/Al
Paul/Al/AK47/#5

One of these would be my preference. Clearly with AK the C's are a better defensive team and it shouldn't cost them the #5 pick. But the C's will never take on that money.

A source within the league said the Celtics believe they can compete for the division title with what they have now and what they can add to it. He added that they’re willing to talk about one of their key players if it’s something that could make them contend for the conference - like Jefferson in a Kevin Garnett deal.

But they’re not going to take on a lot of payroll and cripple themselves financially just to get a little better,” the source said.


Which I think is crap and posturing by a cheap ass owner. God forbid the C's "cripple" themselves by actually acquiring some real talent. The only way the C's have crippled themselves financially is by taking on Vin Baker and LaFrentz oh and don't forget Potapenko, which were a result of horrible talent evaluation.

Newsflash Wyc, talent costs money.

Edited by Jeff Van GULLY, 27 June 2007 - 09:20 AM.


#206 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:07 AM

The Celtics need to cut Phoenix out of it and keep trying to get Garnett.

Offer the #5, next year's #1, return MN's future #1, Wally, Ratliff, Green and Scalabrine for Garnett and Jaric. That's three first rounders, at least one of them in the top 5, plus taking their worst contract and giving them Green, who they earlier claimed they wanted.

#207 bsan34

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:12 AM

The Celtics need to cut Phoenix out of it and keep trying to get Garnett.

Offer the #5, next year's #1, return MN's future #1, Wally, Ratliff, Green and Scalabrine for Garnett and Jaric. That's three first rounders, at least one of them in the top 5, plus taking their worst contract and giving them Green, who they earlier claimed they wanted.


Celtics don't get Garnett without giving up Jefferson.

Getting a guy like Marion while being able to keep Jefferson might be a much better option for this team.

#208 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:28 AM

"Celtics don't get Garnett without giving up Jefferson."

But the Suns get him without Jefferson in the deal and with MN not getting Amare? That's just McHale posturing. He'll take the best deal in the end. And he'll probably end up moving him without getting Jefferson or anyone comparable, just draft picks. And have to keep Jaric's terrible contract.

#209 frongi

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:30 AM

really, with so many options out there for adding good players without giving up jefferson, ainge should be able to pull it off.

We could go for
AK
Marion
KG
Odom & Bynum
J. O'Neil

cmon danny, give us something!

#210 Silent Chief

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:34 AM

You can't win sh*t in this league if you can't control the paint. Where does our defensive big man come from if we blow our load for Shawn Marion? I like Marion and think he'd be a nice player for us but this team would still have a major gap in the frontcourt with no ability to fill it. As I said before, get me Sean Williams in addition to Marion and I like this deal a lot more.



This is what I was driving at in my post. You need a top flight PG to run an effective small ball team. How are you going to fit in Marion? As a SF? That forces PP to the 2 spot, and I'm not convinced he can still gaurd quick 2's. Marion as a PF means Jefferson at Center and, PP at SF. Yor two forward positions are 6'7 or under and your center is more of an atypical PF type who is also undersized.

Add in the fact that Marion, PP, Al either already have Max type salaries, or will demand them soon, means 90% of your roster is tied into 3 guys for the next 5 years. 2 of those guys raise some concerns. PP is 30 and his list of injuries is growing ever longer and scarier. Marion is 30, and is a player that relies to a large degree on being more athletic then everyone else. I can't wait to sign up for long term big money to watch their slides.

#211 Rico

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:40 AM

"Celtics don't get Garnett without giving up Jefferson."

But the Suns get him without Jefferson in the deal and with MN not getting Amare? That's just McHale posturing. He'll take the best deal in the end. And he'll probably end up moving him without getting Jefferson or anyone comparable, just draft picks. And have to keep Jaric's terrible contract.



The best deal is still the Celtics rumored deal last week. That did include Jefferson, #5, Theo and Wally

#212 XNOUGHT


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:05 AM

I think we get back into this deal but hold back Jefferson. Offer any other deal not involving PP or Al. We have the contracts, picks, and young players to make a deal happen. We should be the ones getting Garnett. Bring him here, let him play for a season, and when he realizes he can win AND make the most money out of any option, he'll stay.

#213 SoxScout


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:26 AM

ian thomsen says he doesn't think anything is going to happen with all these rumors... and he thinks yi is our pick.

He also said the Celtics don't have a person getting the scoop about whats going on in players lives around the league and that is their downfall in the trades they make... Danny is all about watching college players and scouting for the draft and they really don't know about players already in the NBA.

Edited by SoxScout, 27 June 2007 - 10:33 AM.


#214 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:29 AM

That would be stupid as hell. You don't give up your only big man, and two best other chips, for another big man who's still got an injury question mark (I want to see him keep up the pace...microfracture surgery is no joking matter for basketball players). That would be an awful idea.


And betting the farm on a 6'7" power forward when your team is already undersized is smart? Amare's contract is a whole lot friendlier than Marion's, and they'd have the luxury tax breathing room to pursue other players, something that Marion strips them of. Yeah, I'd give up Jefferson & #5 for Amare. No, it's not stupid.

#215 Devizier

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:37 AM

And betting the farm on a 6'7" power forward when your team is already undersized is smart? Amare's contract is a whole lot friendlier than Marion's, and they'd have the luxury tax breathing room to pursue other players, something that Marion strips them of. Yeah, I'd give up Jefferson & #5 for Amare. No, it's not stupid.

Amare isn't going to fix the Celtics' size problems. He's smaller than Jefferson. I would rather go to war with Jefferson and Marion than Stoudemire and whatever veteran filler the Celtics could wrangle from free agency next season.

#216 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:39 AM

The Celtics need to cut Phoenix out of it and keep trying to get Garnett.

Offer the #5, next year's #1, return MN's future #1, Wally, Ratliff, Green and Scalabrine for Garnett and Jaric. That's three first rounders, at least one of them in the top 5, plus taking their worst contract and giving them Green, who they earlier claimed they wanted.


This I agree with. I read something on lowpost.net saying the same thing. The C's should just do it and roll the dice. But I do think they should make Rondo to Atlanta, #11 & Al to Minnesota part of the deal. Without Al's extension the Celtics have the luxury tax space to fill in around Pierce & Garnett.

#217 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 10:40 AM

Amare isn't going to fix the Celtics' size problems. He's smaller than Jefferson. I would rather go to war with Jefferson and Marion than Stoudemire and whatever veteran filler the Celtics could wrangle from free agency next season.


Amare isn't smaller than Jefferson. With Marion there will be no veteran filler because the Celtics would be over the luxury tax line, so that MLE will cost them $11 million. And there'd be an almost zero percent chance that the team would make it out of the first round with a gigantic size deficit.

Edited by nighthob, 27 June 2007 - 10:42 AM.


#218 Caspir

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:02 AM

Amare isn't smaller than Jefferson.


They're both 6'10 and Al outweighs Amare by 11 pounds.

Al

Amare

#219 XNOUGHT


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:07 AM

The Celtics need to cut Phoenix out of it and keep trying to get Garnett.

Offer the #5, next year's #1, return MN's future #1, Wally, Ratliff, Green and Scalabrine for Garnett and Jaric. That's three first rounders, at least one of them in the top 5, plus taking their worst contract and giving them Green, who they earlier claimed they wanted.


Why do people say stuff like this. You're making me hope again when I shouldn't!

#220 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:31 AM

They're both 6'10 and Al outweighs Amare by 11 pounds.

Al

Amare


And Amare measured out taller than Jefferson in pre-draft measurements (yes, one got measured in 2002 and the other 2004, just to head you off at the pass). Without addressing Stoudemire's overwhelming athletic advantage.

Edited by nighthob, 27 June 2007 - 11:35 AM.


#221 Rico

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:34 AM

Why do people say stuff like this. You're making me hope again when I shouldn't!


In all liklihood not one single major transaction happens.

#222 Devizier

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:39 AM

And Amare measured out taller than Jefferson in pre-draft measurements (yes, one got measured in 2002 and the other 2004, just to head you off at the pass). Without addressing Stoudemire's overwhelming athletic advantage.

We're not talking about athleticism. If we were, we'd have to bring back the discussion of Marion into the mix, because players don't come more athletic than that.

Jefferson is bigger than Stoudemire and is a superior rebounder and possibly better defensively (more of an indictment of Stoudemire than a credit to Jefferson).

#223 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 12:33 PM

Jefferson is bigger than Stoudemire and is a superior rebounder and possibly better defensively (more of an indictment of Stoudemire than a credit to Jefferson).


Jefferson measured out smaller than Stoudemire, and they're both taller/longer than Marion. So, no, Marion isn't a better option as his extension is going to be a killer, and their front line is going to be incredibly undersized. Jefferson is a better rebounder, but a worse defender. So that balances out. Amare's got a more complete offensive game.

#224 Caspir

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 12:34 PM

And Amare measured out taller than Jefferson in pre-draft measurements (yes, one got measured in 2002 and the other 2004, just to head you off at the pass). Without addressing Stoudemire's overwhelming athletic advantage.


I haven't read anyone say Amare was less athletic than Jefferson, so I don't understand your point. You said Amare is not smaller. They're the same height, but Al outweighs him by a bit over ten pounds. It's irrelevant because the Celtics aren't getting Amare anyway, but you're just throwing things out there as if they are facts when they're not. Do you have any link to the pre draft measurements?

#225 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 01:48 PM

Here's a list of the 2004 measurements. I'll need a bit more to dig up the 2002 ones. And I'm no the one throwisng shit against the wall, that would be the stubborn Devizier. I just pointed out that the Celtics would be better off with a Pierce/Stoudemire starting point, and plenty of payroll flexibility to add talent, than the undersized Pierce/Marion/Jefferson alignment which is a four year lock with no further vet acquisitions. Devizier hasn't really found a counterargument yet, so he keeps trying to divert the debate onto Jefferson's height. The fact is that, as you can see by looking at the tape measured results of the NBA scouts, the listed heights on NBA.com are pretty worthless.

2002 Measurements

Please note, Amare is not smaller than Jefferson (which was a claim made by someone else).

Edited by nighthob, 27 June 2007 - 01:58 PM.


#226 TheRooster

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 02:00 PM

And betting the farm on a 6'7" power forward when your team is already undersized is smart? Amare's contract is a whole lot friendlier than Marion's, and they'd have the luxury tax breathing room to pursue other players, something that Marion strips them of. Yeah, I'd give up Jefferson & #5 for Amare. No, it's not stupid.


How in the hell is giving up Yi and Gerald Green to get Marion "betting the farm"? Those are your 3rd and 4th most valuable chits. If it is due to the assumption that Wyc won't spend, then we might as well punt now. Their one chance to be frugal and successful died a painful death when they failed to get the #1 pick. No Oden means no San Antonio model. Now they've got to do it the way the other 28 teams do. BTW, giving up AJ and #5 for Amare would be betting the farm and I would do that (albeit with some trepidation).

#227 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 02:26 PM

How in the hell is giving up Yi and Gerald Green to get Marion "betting the farm"? Those are your 3rd and 4th most valuable chits. If it is due to the assumption that Wyc won't spend, then we might as well punt now. Their one chance to be frugal and successful died a painful death when they failed to get the #1 pick. No Oden means no San Antonio model. Now they've got to do it the way the other 28 teams do. BTW, giving up AJ and #5 for Amare would be betting the farm and I would do that (albeit with some trepidation).


The Celtics trade chits are, in order, Al, #5, Theo Ratliff's insurance policy (the insurance money makes his contract valuable, expiring deals have very little real value, so unless Wally's crippled over the next year, he won't ever have this sort of value), and Gerald Green. That's it. In both the theoretical (and now dead) scenarios Boston would be giving away three of the four chits. In the Marion scenario it would be #s 2-4, leaving them to either trade Jefferson (which they insist they won't do) or extend him. With both Pierce and Marion on over-max extensions, and Jefferson on a max/near max contract, and Wally on an 80% max deal, every signing thereafter will be a luxury tax hit. So there won't be any moire help. Stoudemire's contract is more user-friendly than Marion's (which is its primary value). So you do end up sacrificing chits #1-#3, but you still have Green to package with draft picks for extra help, and can sign players without fears of getting hit by the luxury tax. That's why, in the two theoretical scenarios, Stoudemire is better than Marion. I think I've been clear, though, that they should just say fuck it and trade for Garnett, and use Garnett's refusal to sign an extension to dampen the price a little (like, say, hold on to #5 in hopes of replacing Jefferson or drafting someone like Thornton or Jeff Green to be the third option). Garnett gets them a seat at the table, Marion might not even get them into the postseason (unless you're of the opinion that the other 14 teams in the East will feel sorry for Boston and not make any improvements so that the Celtics can be competitive). Gasol and O'Neal (as much as I dislike JO) would be better choices for Boston, solely for the height they bring (though a Jefferson/Gasol 4/5 would be truly awful defensively).

#228 TheRooster

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:10 PM

Pierce is their #2 chit. Ratlif's value is completely unknown other than as a salary balance.

#229 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:21 PM

Pierce would be #1, but we were starting with the assumption that they're trading for a vet to add to Pierce, so he's (in theory) off the table. Ratliff's value is pretty well related to the fact that the insurance means that his contract only costs $2-$3 million out of pocket, it's why you'll see Boston's name brought up every time a vet with baggage goes on the market.

#230 Eddie Jurak


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:28 PM

Please note, Amare is not smaller than Jefferson (which was a claim made by someone else).

True, Amare is 0.25" taller. Although the links you provided do say Jeffereson has a longer wingspan and higher standing reach...

#231 TheRooster

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:34 PM

Pierce would be #1, but we were starting with the assumption that they're trading for a vet to add to Pierce, so he's (in theory) off the table. Ratliff's value is pretty well related to the fact that the insurance means that his contract only costs $2-$3 million out of pocket, it's why you'll see Boston's name brought up every time a vet with baggage goes on the market.

I was starting with the assumption that we should be improving the team and moving towards a title. I think Marion for #5 and Ratlif does both of those things.

#232 Sprowl


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 04:35 PM

If Marion is willing to come to the Celts to team with Pierce and Jefferson, he’s certainly worth our other chips (#5, Theo and Green). Aside from Garnett, Marion is the best of the other available veterans, and carries less baggage.

Marion would be a star on the Celts, even without Nash: he is one of the league’s best rebounders, with great hops and anticipation. He can score inside, at the 3pt line, and on the break. Pierce and Jefferson don’t run much, but Rondo-to-Marion would be a real threat on the fast break. Marion would benefit from Doc’s wing-oriented offensive scheme.

Marion is an excellent player because of his athleticism. He has logged a lot of miles, so the risk of injury is not inconsiderable. But compared to AK47, O'Neal and Bibby, he’s strong and durable.


Shawn, if you’re reading SOSH like Curt Schilling -- Celtic fans really appreciate quality basketball players. You’ll love Boston, and Boston will love you.

Edited by Sprowl's Shattered Psyche, 27 June 2007 - 04:56 PM.


#233 SoxScout


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:05 PM

ESPN says the Marion to us trade would be for #5, West, Ratliff.

Ford thinks if any of the trades are going to go down it would be PHX/ATL/MIN one.

Edited by SoxScout, 27 June 2007 - 05:06 PM.


#234 DJnVa


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:09 PM

The guy hosting ESPN Radio this afternoon said Pierce would be on LA radio this afternoon and that Marion is wavering on his "no Boston" stance.

#235 TheRooster

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:12 PM

I've meant to post this several times over the past few weeks. I can't imagine any trade involving high draft picks being consumated until draft night. If Minny or Phoenix is going to trade for the #5 or #4 pick, won't they want to be 100% certain the guy they really want is still on the board? There can't be too many people who are convinced that Yi, Horford, Conley, Brewer and Noah are ALL going to be studs. So I expect lots of sound and fury tonight and tomorrow, but no real action until after Seattle announces they've selected Durant.

#236 Caspir

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 06:47 PM

So in addition to the Phoenix/Atlanta/Minnesota three way, Phoenix would also trade us Marion in a separate deal for 5th/West/Ratliff? That would be a nice trade, letting us keep Green.

#237 DJnVa


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 06:54 PM

No, not 2 trades. One or the other.

#238 Caspir

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 07:48 PM

Makes more sense that way. So basically it won't be happening. Sucks.

#239 SoxScout


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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:16 PM

PXH/ATL/MIN trade is 'really cooled' because of PHX... haven't talk to MIN in a while and have yet to even talk to ATL.

Not dead, but doubtful.

ATL is really hot on Yi right now.

#240 MannyRam

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:18 PM

edit: wrong thread

Edited by MannyRam, 27 June 2007 - 09:18 PM.


#241 nighthob

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:52 PM

I was starting with the assumption that we should be improving the team and moving towards a title. I think Marion for #5 and Ratlif does both of those things.


Except that the financial restrictions imposed by the contracts mean that Marion would be the only move they could make. Unless you think Marion, Pierce & Jefferson become the best team in the NBA, I can't see how you expect to get there without Wyc paying an enormous luxury tax bill, something that he's refused to do.

#242 TheRooster

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 12:19 AM

Except that the financial restrictions imposed by the contracts mean that Marion would be the only move they could make. Unless you think Marion, Pierce & Jefferson become the best team in the NBA, I can't see how you expect to get there without Wyc paying an enormous luxury tax bill, something that he's refused to do.


Check my earlier post (226). I don't see how the C's, or any team that isn't SA or Portland, can be legit title contenders without being over the cap. Elite players get paid big dolars and you need elite players to contend. If Wyc won't pay, we can/should all give up until he sells the team.

#243 DJnVa


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Posted 28 June 2007 - 07:14 AM

The guys hosting the morning show on the NBA station on Sirius still think the Suns are working the Marion to Boston deal. I'm not sure how plugged in they are, but the station is run by the league.