64 replies to this topic

[PedroKsBambino]

That was one of the most egregiously obvious headhunting pitches I've ever seen. Excluding Clemens throwing at Piazza, at least.

There's no doubt it was on purpose, there's no doubt it was aimed at his face. It's really bad stuff...even Pedro didn't do that on his most aggressive day.

I wonder if what Posada was saying was "he shouldn't have done that, it's wrong, and we'll tell him that" Because if he said just about anything else, wouldn't you expect Youk to have popped him in the face there, really? Posada's pitcher just tried to take out Youk's eyeball, what other possible statement could he make that wouldn't generate a punch? He couldn't possibly have said "that wasn't intentional" could he? I mean, that's not remotely credible.

[Sille Skrub]

I was pretty pissed when I saw it as well but....

I dunno, PKB. The count was 2-2 and Proctor has no real history of head hunting. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a hard time believing that Scott Proctor would purposely throw at someone's head.

breaking out, btw...

[PedroKsBambino]

I think the count being 2-2 tells us essentially nothing in a 9-3 game, in the 9th, with no one on though. In other words, if you want to send a message pitch that's the game situation you do it, regardless of count.

I'll be curious to see what the consensus here is. I thought it was a clear purpose pitch, but it'd be interesting if a lot of people thought otherwise.

A related, and potentially interesting, question is how you would compare it to Pedro's brushback of Matsui in 2004 game 5; the difference between 'headhunting' and 'brushback' is a fine one sometimes, if it exists at all.

I thought the pitch tonight was really bad stuff, too hard and too close. Certainly, there's a great number of Yankee fans who likely see it the other way and I'm kind of curious if people here think this pitch and that one are equivalent. I do see the case for that, for sure....going high and tight is a dangerous game that's best not played, imo.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 01 June 2007 - 11:34 PM.

[CaptainLaddie]

Mostly when a guy does something like that unintentionally, the pitcher will immediately show remorse - basically be like "whoa, dude, sorry." We've seen it a bunch of times.

Proctor did nothing of the sort.

[lurker42]

He's just trying to get himself suspended so Torre has to stop sending him out there every day...

[Sille Skrub]

Posada's reaction (following Youks all the way to first) was interesting. It was either to reinforce that it wasn't intentional or maybe what PKB said, letting Youks know that Proctor handled the message pitch all wrong.

[nazz45]

Youkilis has the Jeter-like tendency to dive into pitches. The Yankees have tried to bury him with fastballs in all year. The pitch was intended to be an inner-half fastball based on where Posada setup. Perhaps the pitch even meant to brush him back or maybe even hit him (below the face area) given that Cano was plunked in the previous inning (even though it came on an 0-2 pitch and was obviously not intentional).

I think the fastball ran on him and got away because no on can be that stupid and irresponsible. But maybe I'm giving Proctor too much credit. This is a guy who drilled Guillen (I believe) after Phelps was hit in retaliation for barreling into Johjima when it wasn't necessary - the issue was over and Proctor took it upon himself to reignite the situation, so there's a history of him being not all that bright.

Edited by nazz45, 01 June 2007 - 11:45 PM.

[JakeRae]

Not to say it was intentional or not, but if I was up 9-3 and wanted to hit someone, I'd be damned sure to do it in a count where I could say afterward, "Look, it was a 2-2 count, of course it wasn't intentional." If I throw that pitch at the beginning of a count, I am assured a suspension. If I do it at 2-2, maybe I skate by with just an ejection.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that MLB players think things through in this manner or that this has any real bearing on whether Scott Proctor hit Youks. He certainly did not act like the pitch just got away from him after he threw it, which causes me to lean toward the intentional side. It is also possible he followed a logic like mine above, so I don't see the count as a reason to assume it wasn't intentional. Either way, I hope the Sox just let it go tomorrow. There is no reason to start a fight with the Yankees. Routing them the next two days would be payback enough.

Also, if we do hit someone, please let it be A-Rod. And, please let it be in the back, not the head.

[The Gray Eagle]

The New York Yankees are the Class of baseball. They Play The Game Right. No way would a New York Yankee ever do a bush league play.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously just jealous of their success. I didn't see the play, but obviously Youkilis dove in front of the pitch to try to make the New York Yankees look bad. He's just jealous of them.

[paulftodd]

I have trouble believing any pitcher intentially goes for the head, everyone knows the consequences of hitting the target if it misses the helmet. There was intent to hit Youk, everyone could see someone getting drilled after Lopez retaliated by hitting Cano for Lowell. I think when a pitcher tries to throw hard to a location they do not practice, the command may not be there . Pitchers should probably practice hitting batters using dummies,maybe A-Rod can help. That said, the pitcher is responsible for where his pitches go when they throw at guys, so if he wants to hit someone next time he better be more careful or WMP will hammer him. FWIW, the guys on YES were pretty pissed at Proctor.

[Harry Hooper]

FWIW, the guys on YES were pretty pissed at Proctor.

Interesting, anyone remember their reactions when Rivera threw at Shea's head the day after he homered?

[MarkInLondon]

Interesting, anyone remember their reactions when Rivera threw at Shea's head the day after he homered?

Suzyn Waldman had an orgasm??

[Mike in CT]

It says alot that most Yankee fans (from where I sit) are very proud of Proctor tonight.

[PedroSpecialK]

It says alot that most Yankee fans (from where I sit) are very proud of Proctor tonight.

I would understand if J.C. Romero had beaned Cano in the hands or up in the head area - heck, I'd be pissed at him for doing so. But to get mad about Lopez hitting Cano is insane, especially when it evens up what happened (Wang's pitch could have broken Lowell's wrist easily). For Proctor to reignite the beanballing as he did with Guillen is assinine and I think it warrants a suspension.

Edited by PedroSpecialK, 02 June 2007 - 02:02 AM.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

I would understand if J.C. Romero had beaned Cano in the hands or up in the head area - heck, I'd be pissed at him for doing so. But to get mad about Lopez hitting Cano is insane, especially when it evens up what happened (Wang's pitch could have broken Lowell's wrist easily). For Proctor to reignite the beanballing as he did with Guillen is assinine and I think it warrants a suspension.

If Proctor gets suspended, that might be the only thing that will save him from needing Tommy John surgery. Perhaps this is his subconscious directing him to act out of self-preservation!

If there was any sense of complacency settling in with the Red Sox, let us hope that this incident snapped them right out of it.

[Mike in CT]

The theme in the Yankee clubhouse tonight seemed to be "we needed to be more fiery".... and everyone was happy as pigs in ****... talking about this as the turning point.

First mission is to win the next 2 games.... and when things are secure... there will be payback.

Karma will come back to bite Proctor hard.

[tailwind]

It says alot that most Yankee fans (from where I sit) are very proud of Proctor tonight.

After his performance in the last game of the Angels series, I'd probably be cheering for a potential suspension if I were a MFY fan.

[Rooster Crows]

I would understand if J.C. Romero had beaned Cano in the hands or up in the head area - heck, I'd be pissed at him for doing so. But to get mad about Lopez hitting Cano is insane, especially when it evens up what happened (Wang's pitch could have broken Lowell's wrist easily). For Proctor to reignite the beanballing as he did with Guillen is assinine and I think it warrants a suspension.

Proctor's had a bad couple of games recently, and was seen in one of them as throwing his glove at the bench and punching the wall. Based on all that was said above, and what could be his desire to "make it right" and be a true Yankee - I can definitely see him doing this on purpose. Furthermore, the Yanks and their fans have a very short memory when it comes to beanings. After the series where Dice-K came in on Arod, which was clearly not an intentional hit, all we heard here for weeks was how there should have been payback. Without even going in to the intention, they all conveniently overlooked the fact that Youks was hit first in that series. Like Jeter - his stance is going to get hm in trouble - but also both guys have been sparks igniting their teams, and obvious targets.

Edited by Rooster Crows, 02 June 2007 - 04:04 AM.

[AlNipper49]

Proctor sucks donkey balls, he was probably aiming for the middle of the plate

[Jim Gosger]

So which MFY goes down today? Jeter? Lightning Rod? I vote for Posada. You throw at our hot hitter we throw at yours.

[Gorton Fisherman]

Looked intentional to me. He was definitely try to knock Youkilis on his ass. No way he should be throwing inside that hard that high. Putz.

I was also surprised how vehemently the YES announcers condemned Proctor's action. Even those Yankee-fellating schmucks declined to try to rationalize it as "just how the game is played", "one that got away from him" etc.

Should made for a veddy interesting situation today w/Schilling on the mound. Especially vs. Mussina who dislikes pitching inside.

It'll also be interesting to see whether this has any lingering impact on Youk's psyche at the plate (a la Matsui in 2004). Personally I think not.

[Razor Shines]

So which MFY goes down today? Jeter? Lightning Rod? I vote for Posada. You throw at our hot hitter we throw at yours.

This is why I don't think it was intentional.

Why would they be doing this in Game 1 of a series, while they are down over 10 games? It would be like begging the Sox to throw at Derek Jeter the next day.

[BoSoxLady]

Like Torre blowing his stack, Proctor's trying to get the Yankees fired up. Fans and media have been criticizing them for playing without passion. Torre never raises his voice, yet he chose last night to explode. Proctor's a hot head coming off of a horrible outing. What better time is there to try to rally the troups? Nothing will happen today because both teams will be warned beforehand. Schill's smart enough not to retaliate and end up suspended. He'll file it away until the next series.

[Delicious Sponge]

Like Torre blowing his stack, Proctor's trying to get the Yankees fired up. Fans and media have been criticizing them for playing without passion. Torre never raises his voice, yet he chose last night to explode. Proctor's a hot head coming off of a horrible outing. What better time is there to try to rally the troups? Nothing will happen today because both teams will be warned beforehand. Schill's smart enough not to retaliate and end up suspended. He'll file it away until the next series.

I think this is right. You win one game in this series and the MFYs really have nothing to show for having been here.

The MFYs are a very frustrated team and the best way to retaliate against them is to beat them.

[Steve Dillard]

Schilling talked about the challenges of pitching inside when the umps are on watch. It strikes me that he will not jeopardize his start by nailing someone this go round. I think they'll play hard, take 2nd basemen out in slides, etc., but wait for payback late in a game that is out of hand (like the Yanks did yesterday) or just as Schilling's innings are up.

[PortlandSoxFan]

Like Torre blowing his stack, Proctor's trying to get the Yankees fired up. Fans and media have been criticizing them for playing without passion. Torre never raises his voice, yet he chose last night to explode. Proctor's a hot head coming off of a horrible outing. What better time is there to try to rally the troups? Nothing will happen today because both teams will be warned beforehand. Schill's smart enough not to retaliate and end up suspended. He'll file it away until the next series.

When Torre went out the first time, I was thinking to myself "He's trying to get tossed to fire up the team".....and he didn't.

He was so intent on getting tossed that he went back out to argue the play in the middle of the inning. So transparent...

And before we give him and Proctor credit for firing the Yanks up....this all happened AFTER the Yanks had scored all 9 of their runs, didn't it?

[PooNani]

It wasn't intentional, just like any of the other HBP during the game. I really dont think anything will come out of it, though i understand Youkilis being upset because you dont want a ball near your head

[Dick Pole Upside]

Scott Proctor = Voldemort



P.S. Proctor's one of the only pitchers on the MFYs who will stick up for his teammates. Sucks that he went after Youks, but Yankee pitchers in general are a bunch of panty-waists...

Edited by Dick Pole Upside, 02 June 2007 - 07:49 AM.

[JohnMal]

1. Torre's flare up was so obvious an attempt to "fire things up", that he looked like a jackass.
2. The pitch to Youk was absurd. I wouldn't have blamed him for batting a few of Proctor's teeth into the stands. I don't know if the location was on purpose, but the pitch was.
3. I expect the Red Sox to come out in a mood to punish the Yankees.

[jayhoz]

It wasn't intentional, just like any of the other HBP during the game. I really dont think anything will come out of it, though i understand Youkilis being upset because you dont want a ball near your head

I'm interested in the access you obviously have to each and every MFY. You post such definitive statements regarding what the MFY do or don't do (ARod didn't yell "mine", proctor didn't intentionally throw at Youks). You must either be in the clubhouse or have the cell numbers of most of the team. How did you get so close to the team?

Edited by jayhoz, 02 June 2007 - 08:18 AM.

[Worst Trade Evah]

It wasn't intentional, just like any of the other HBP during the game. I really dont think anything will come out of it, though i understand Youkilis being upset because you dont want a ball near your head

He didn't hit him on purpose, or he didn't throw at him on purpose? I can sort of see Proctor claiming he was just brushing back and not beaning, but he was definitely brushing back high and inside -- at least.

The Sox should retaliate. Bean the first batter of the game, get the warnings issued, and then play.

[Yaz4Ever]

He didn't hit him on purpose, or he didn't throw at him on purpose? I can sort of see Proctor claiming he was just brushing back and not beaning, but he was definitely brushing back high and inside -- at least.

The Sox should retaliate. Bean the first batter of the game, get the warnings issued, and then play.

I think warnings have already been issued, so anything like this will result in an immediate ejection.

I would prefer that we just go out and play hard, trying to break up double plays, knock Posada on his butt at the plate if there's a play, stuff like that. File the retaliation away for later. These guys never forget, so there's no need to do anything now.

I was very curious to hear what the YES announcers had to say during the whole melee. Anyone have a link to a transcript or, better yet, video clip?

[Bowlerman9]

I was very curious to hear what the YES announcers had to say during the whole melee. Anyone have a link to a transcript or, better yet, video clip?

When Lopez hit Cano, they were both sure that it wasnt intentional, since Lopez isnt very good and "cant afford to be hitting people" since his job isnt that secure. How with his arm angle, he just had one get away from him, and that there was absolutely no intent.

When Proctor buzzed Youkilis, they both thought it was intentional.

Then 2 minutes later when they showed the 5 HBP's in the game, they said the first 3 were unintentional, then started screaming "Lopez's was intentional, you cant get any more intentional then that!" then said that Proctors just got away from him.

Gotta love it

[jtn46]

It wasn't intentional, just like any of the other HBP during the game. I really dont think anything will come out of it, though i understand Youkilis being upset because you dont want a ball near your head

Thanks for understanding.

Posada's reaction tells us if it was intentional, it was probably Proctor acting alone. I'd guess he meant to hit him, but missed up...Proctor doesn't really get the benefit of the doubt after the incident with Seattle.

[4-6-3]

Perhaps Tito can pull an Ozzie and demand that Romero hit say A-Rod or Jeter (he's on the plate most of time). Romero is on his last days with the Sox (I hope) and any suspension wouldn't effect the Sox down the road.

[4-6-3]

This is why I don't think it was intentional.

Why would they be doing this in Game 1 of a series, while they are down over 10 games? It would be like begging the Sox to throw at Derek Jeter the next day.

IMO the MFYs are desperate and trying to stir some life into that club. Like Arod the other night, they're trying to do anything to get the club going - even if it goes against the norm or unwritten rules of the game. They suck and they're desperate.

[Carlos Cowart]

It's a good thing Schilling's pitching today rather than Tavarez. Schilling will be more concerned about winning the game than plunking people whereas Tavarez would probably nail the first batter and get himself tossed.

[Midurty]

It's a good thing Schilling's pitching today rather than Tavarez. Schilling will be more concerned about winning the game than plunking people whereas Tavarez would probably nail the first batter and get himself tossed.

Let's have Schilling and Tavarez warm up, let Tavarez go up and in, get tossed, and simply bring in Schill from the bullpen. haha

IMHO, Proctor was absolutely trying to send a message to Youks, though probably not trying to hit him. Trying to send a message pitch to Youks is completely acceptable. He's on a tear and one of Proctor's own had been hit, frankly I'd have been embarassed for him if he didn't send some sort of message.

[swany]

As much as I am in the mood to see A-Rod or Jeter take one in the back, I would much rather see G38 and Beckett use this to their advantage. Sometimes the fear of retaliation can be a lot more useful than the retaliation itself.

[Hello]

I think Proctor intended to go up and in on Youkilis, but I do not think that Proctor intended to get close to his head or even hit him.

I understand that it was a 6 run lead in the 9th inning, but let's face it, the Yankees have had trouble closing out games.

Youkilis against Proctor: .250/.364/.250
Ortiz against Proctor: .429/.429/.571
Manny against Proctor: .444/.500/1.444
Pena against Procror: .667/.667/1.667

Admittedly, Pena's numbers are only in 3 at bats, and the rest are only in about 10, but still, the players after Youkilis have extreme success against Proctor.

Why should he intentionally put men on base in front of players he clearly struggles against when the Yankees absolutely needed the win? And yes, it was a 2-2 count. Why exchange the possible out for the baserunner...especially considering who was following?

Edited by Hello, 02 June 2007 - 11:56 AM.

[Wingack]

When Lopez hit Cano, they were both sure that it wasnt intentional, since Lopez isnt very good and "cant afford to be hitting people" since his job isnt that secure. How with his arm angle, he just had one get away from him, and that there was absolutely no intent.

I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but Cano sure did look annoyed that he got hit, plus he had hit a HR in the game so you never know.

So which MFY goes down today? Jeter? Lightning Rod? I vote for Posada. You throw at our hot hitter we throw at yours.

Just hit someone that wasn't hit yesterday, Phelps, ARod and Cano were already hit. Jeter and Posada are still options.

[DJnVa]

3. I expect the Red Sox to come out in a mood to punish the Yankees.

If this entire situation was reversed--Sox way down in the standings, winning the first game of the series easily, and doing something like this, we'd all be upset that we gave the other team motivation. Hopefully the Sox come out fired up today. As has been said, this series is vitally important to NY. Not sure why Proctor would choose to do something like that.

[chris719]

This is the Scott Proctor who, last week, walked in two runs and threw a neck-high fastball to Rios when Posada called for a pitch in the dirt. I'm pretty sure he almost airmailed one to the backstop in the game when he walked in the runs, too. He was probably trying to pitch inside but I highly doubt he meant to hit him, the guy has been wild lately.

[Harry Hooper]

Just hit someone that wasn't hit yesterday, Phelps, ARod and Cano were already hit. Jeter and Posada are still options.

Love the way Yanks fans include Wake's HBPs in these discussions, and Alex was barely nicked by Snyder vs. nearly having Lowell get his wrist broken and Youks beaned.

[Who'sYourPapi]

When Proctor buzzed Youkilis, they both thought it was intentional.

Then 2 minutes later when they showed the 5 HBP's in the game, they said the first 3 were unintentional, then started screaming "Lopez's was intentional, you cant get any more intentional then that!" then said that Proctors just got away from him.

Gotta love it

False. Neither of the YES announcers ever condoned what Proctor did at any point in the telecast. In fact, they said that throwing at another player's head is another one of those "unwritten rules" of baseball (this is after a lengthy discussion of A-Rod's "Mine/Ha!" play in Toronto). They were ripping into Proctor pretty badly and said that the ejection was definitely deserved.

I was actually impressed with the unbiased opinions of the YES boys (Michael Kay and Ken Singleton) in regards to the head-hunting incident. I have noticed lately they haven't been such homers, as Kay used to be especially bad.

But yea, I don't know why Bowlerman would blatantly lie about something like that, maybe he can't stand the fact that Yankees announcers are actually doing the right thing? But I thought I would just let you know what really went down after the incident.

[Wingack]

Love the way Yanks fans include Wake's HBPs in these discussions, and Alex was barely nicked by Snyder vs. nearly having Lowell get his wrist broken and Youks beaned.

Wake was wild in general and so was Snyder, however there was a little discussion on this board about whether ARod might get hit because of the slide on Pedrioa. If you have 3 guys hit on your team you have to come in on someone (not throw at their head though) to let the other team know they can't walk all over you.

[Mikesgirl]

Wake was wild in general and so was Snyder, however there was a little discussion on this board about whether ARod might get hit because of the slide on Pedrioa. If you have 3 guys hit on your team you have to come in on someone (not throw at their head though) to let the other team know they can't walk all over you.

I agree that someone should have been hit, personally, I wish it had been Manny. However, throwing at someone's head is never ok. I have seen Sox fans cheering like crazy when Yankee players get injured at games, so I am not impressed by the outrage over this. Youkilis is just fine. Warnings were issued yesterday though, so if a Sox pitcher throws at a Yankee, they better have the bullpen ready. And that would suit me just fine.

[Harry Hooper]

Wake was wild in general and so was Snyder, however there was a little discussion on this board about whether ARod might get hit because of the slide on Pedrioa. If you have 3 guys hit on your team you have to come in on someone (not throw at their head though) to let the other team know they can't walk all over you.

Thanks for proving my point. Wake hitting someone with one of his harmless butterflies should be totally ignored, and anyone who thinks Snyder hit Alex on purpose to load the bases for Posada (the batting average league leader) is foolish.

Sadly, however, I think too many big leaguers these days agree with you and disregard context.

[FLYankeefan]

well, Boston Herald is reporting no suspension for Proctor, although MLB said BOTH teams would be under heavy scrutinization going forward for any incidents. Given the fact Proctor was just suspended 4 games I was excpecting an 8-10 game vacation for him. I guess the fact that the other incident there was a warning in place at the time and last night there wasn't must have been why.



http://www.bostonher.../redSox/?p=1287

[Rooster Crows]

I agree that someone should have been hit, personally, I wish it had been Manny. However, throwing at someone's head is never ok. I have seen Sox fans cheering like crazy when Yankee players get injured at games, so I am not impressed by the outrage over this. Youkilis is just fine. Warnings were issued yesterday though, so if a Sox pitcher throws at a Yankee, they better have the bullpen ready. And that would suit me just fine.

With all due respect, that's ridiculous. Wtih the exception of a few a**holes, most normal MFY and Red Sox fans do not condone or cheer a deliberate hit to the head. I have noticed though, that many NY fans looking for payback, and some sort of pathetics spark, have conveniently forgotten in each series who was hit first. Youks was first hit this year among all of the series. Is deliberate hitting of heads and misleading new infielders some new Yankee way of doing things? Talk about bush league move - talk about pathetic.

Edited by Rooster Crows, 02 June 2007 - 02:34 PM.