1384 replies to this topic

[Country Sinker]

Thanks for posting the Globe story.
This at the end was interesting:

Arizona GM Josh Byrnes tried to hire Sox administrator Peter Woodfork as his assistant GM, but the Sox blocked it.

[Andy Tomberlin]

Thanks for posting the Globe story.
This at the end was interesting:

Arizona GM Josh Byrnes tried to hire Sox administrator Peter Woodfork as his assistant GM, but the Sox blocked it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's quite a remarkable development.

[The Gray Eagle]

But it doesn't mean anything, because we don't KNOW that it's true. For 1000% sure.

Woodfork hasn't driven to my house to tell me personally that he wanted to leave, in front of witnesses, a film crew, a court stenographer and a notary public, and a so until he does, I can claim that assuming that it's true is just spewing a lot of unfounded speculation.

Can't have that on an internet message board. It's inadmisible evidence in a court of law, and thus anyone claiming that Woodfork wanted to leave to go to Arizona and the Red Sox blocked it is wrong.

[PedroKsBambino]

Skipping the silliness...

I don't see any reason to doubt the report that Woodfork's move was blocked. There's only one story that reported something different, and it was prior in time and (as OttoC noted) fits with the order of events reported in that Globe note anyway. Obviously, we know Gammons' report ended up being wrong because Woodfork is still here.

There's a big difference between a factual report (such as this one) which is consistent with everything we've observed and rumors which are contradicted by other reports and by facts we know, it seems to me.

I guess you can have the view that everything you read in the paper is true, or everything is false (each of which has adherents on the board) or that whatever appears most often is true. I tend to think looking at the totality of it is better, but if you want a simple answer I guess "majority reporting rules" is one way to look at things. It's tiresome on all sides, I think.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 20 November 2005 - 08:14 PM.

[irishkg]

Theo is gone; the operation to restore LL's national reputation continues. The latest stage is the NYTimes and the writer is Murray Chass.

LL is misunderstood:

...appearances and developments are misleading, according to people directly involved with the Red Sox' chief executive, Larry Lucchino. The fallout from the Theo Epstein episode seems to be greatly exaggerated.

A veteran GM like Kevin Towers appreciates LL and knows how to work with him:

...to further rehabilitate Lucchino's reputation, Kevin Towers, who worked under Lucchino for six years as San Diego's general manager, lauded Lucchino as a chief executive and said he had no problem working for him.  "I like the guy," said Towers... He said that Lucchino had his fiery moments, but that "you have to just let it roll off your shoulders."

http://www.nytimes.c...ll/20chass.html

[ghost of don baylor]

Theo is gone; the operation to restore LL's national reputation continues. The latest stage is the NYTimes and the writer is Murray Chass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The great thing about this propaganda piece by Chass is that, if you step back for a minute, Towers is basically saying that Lucchino is a pain in the Arss but that he learned to live with him and work together over time. Not exactly overglowing praise...

[Philip Jeff Frye]

The great thing about this propaganda piece by Chass is that, if you step back for a minute, Towers is basically saying that Lucchino is a pain in the Arss but that he learned to live with him and work together over time.  Not exactly overglowing praise...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And of course, he didn't like him enough to leave San Diego for Boston.

[Todd Benzinger]

Yeah, it doesn't take much reading between the lines ot see that Towers finds Lucky a pain in the chAss.

How did LL get enemy writer chAss to write a puff piece on him, though?

[BigMike]

Yeah, it doesn't take much reading between the lines ot see that Towers finds Lucky a pain in the chAss.

How did LL get enemy writer chAss to write a puff piece on him, though?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NYTimes, and Murray Chass may be the enemy, but they own a nice piece of the Red Sox. So no real surprise they would write a fluff piece if that is what the Sox want. Maybe they figure people have finally woken up to the Globe partnership which has left the Globe without credibility, but they will forget the Times owns the Globe

[ghost of don baylor]

The NYTimes, and Murray Chass may be the enemy,   but they own a nice piece of the Red Sox.   So no real surprise they would write a fluff piece if that is what the Sox want.   Maybe they figure people have finally woken up to the Globe partnership which has left the Globe without credibility, but they will forget the Times owns the Globe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am still skeptical of the notion that columnists offer views influenced by corporate ownership of their newspaper. I think it is an affront to Bob Ryan, Jackie MacMullan and their peers, and unfounded.

I believe Lucchino has hooked up Chass before and they have grown to have a longstanding relationship. That Chass would return the favor (and invest in future stories) by writing a puffpiece is no surprise.

But all of the conspiracy stories are overdone.

Edited by ghost of don baylor, 21 November 2005 - 01:14 AM.

[FelixMantilla]

How did LL get enemy writer chAss to write a puff piece on him, though?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Hello Murray, this is Dr. Charles Steinberg of the Boston Red Sox......"

Edited by FelixMantilla, 21 November 2005 - 02:07 AM.

[B H Kim]

Thanks for posting the Globe story.
This at the end was interesting:

Arizona GM Josh Byrnes tried to hire Sox administrator Peter Woodfork as his assistant GM, but the Sox blocked it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's apparently now a done deal: Woodfork to Arizona as Assistant GM.

[Country Sinker]

And a BIG congrats to BOH - sad to see Woodfork go, but not a surprise. Good to see Brian O'Halloran get the promotion, he certainly deserves it!

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

In today's Edes column:

We would not pretend to know whether Scott Boras's latest work is on the reading list these days for the Red Sox Gang of Four, any more than we would venture a guess at the identity of the next Sox general manager, other than to say we're as puzzled as you by Theo Epstein's ongoing visits to his former office.

WTF?

edit: link

Edited by Jack Brohammer Experience, 23 November 2005 - 05:43 PM.

[gcapalbo]

In today's Edes column:

We would not pretend to know whether Scott Boras's latest work is on the reading list these days for the Red Sox Gang of Four, any more than we would venture a guess at the identity of the next Sox general manager, other than to say we're as puzzled as you by Theo Epstein's ongoing visits to his former office.

WTF?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I noted this with some surprise as well. WTF indeed...

So, what exactly is this saying?

Has Theo been quietly returning to the offices on Yawkey Way since the GM meetings?

Or is it referring to Theo offering to help out between the time his contract expired and the start of the management meetings?

From the tone of it, it SOUNDS like he has been going to Fenway all along on a regular basis, even after the GM meetings.

What the heck does THAT that mean?

We have John W Henry saying in another thread on these very pages, in black and white, unfiltered that:

Theo was clear in his press conference when he opted not to close the door to the future. But life is constant change and for the most part it is exceedingly unpredictable. He is not going to return as our surprise GM in this process.

So we can assume he's not there negotiating his return.

So, then WHAT is he up to?

We know he has cleaned out his office long ago, so that's not it.

If he wanted to shoot the breeze with the remining FO staff, who by all accounts he is frienndly with, you'd imagine he'd do that 'outside' of working hours.

If I was going to guess... and this would only be wild speculation--

Theo is actually helping with the GM search!

Three years ago, this was his task for the team, and it would be very Theo-like for him to quietly volunteer for such a thing, and would 'fit' with him feeling some remorse about walking, but not enough remorse to actually want to come back.

Would this make JWH saying:

Theo was clear in his press conference when he opted not to close the door to the future. But life is constant change and for the most part it is exceedingly unpredictable.

Seem to make more sense?

Given what's happened, imagine you walk into Fenway for your GM interview, and LL and THEO are sitting in the room on the other side of the table?

Now THAT would be unpredictable!

[Sportsbstn]

Yes, I remember reading that Theo has frequently been seen back at his old office. This is truly confusing, as this is beyond the time he needed to put in to make the transition. Given that he does not work for the Red Sox anymore, I find this extremely odd, and actually start to think despite JH's instance otherwise, that something is happening.

[Rough Carrigan]

Oh, those reports must be mistaken. I'm sure Theo was actually sighted at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. Because that's what he really thinks is important? Right? That's what he values most and what he does with his time. He doesn't just give us lip service quotes about caring for the lame and the halt and the blind. I mean, he's a saint. He's so much better than everyone, right?

Seriously, though, it could be perfectly understandable transition work. A co-worker left our office about 8 months ago and if he were just down the street we'd have asked him to come in and straighten out some computer files and things a half dozen times easy.

[SoxFanSince57]

I don't mean to rekindle flame wars, but if this quote isn't TOTALLY transparent, I don't know what is.

Peter Woodfork:  ''I think it's just overall a great opportunity to go work for a GM I trust.  Josh is a tremendous person with great character and will be a great GM. I'm really looking forward to it."

And he ain't referring to Theo.

The Globe

EDIT: I have never heard a person use "trust" and "character" as reasons for joining a new organization, if these were not an issue with the person's former organization. And in light of the hundreds of media reports on this very issue, I find this parting comment very telling. Of course, others may not.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 24 November 2005 - 11:26 AM.

[Gambler7]

Can we stop with this witch hunt type of thing with every single quote? I'm sorry but it's old and it is embarassing.

Where do you get that he was referring to anybody in that? He stated he is moving because he has an opportunity to work with someone he knows and trusts (while getting a promotion). You likely don't even know what question was asked for that response.

[Jim Gosger]

Can we stop with this witch hunt type of thing with every single quote? I'm sorry but it's old and it is embarassing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO, the only thing that is embarrasing is all the fawning over JWH and all the backtracking and apologists that have lauded Lucchino. The issue of trust was the major reason for Theo's leaving this team. I believe it is very telling that Woodfork brings up the issue of trust, albeit obliquely, in his first public statement since Theo has left.

You can disagree with that, but don't call it embarrassing.

Edited by Jim Gosger, 24 November 2005 - 11:16 AM.

[Steve Dillard]

Ok, so

(1) Theo is helping the team out til they hire a new guy, as he said he would (he's got nothing better to do)


and/or

(2) Theo is not returning to the team as the GM -- but life is unpredictable - he's returning as the new President, overseeing Hoyer as GM and replacing Lucky. He gets to do what he wants, which is broader and more challenging to Theo than what a GM does.

how's #2 as speculation, based on JHW's narrow denial of Theo returning but him staying active with the Sox.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I find this parting comment very telling. Of course, others may not.

You continue to seize upon every negative comment and report in the press to support the idea that Lucchino is the only culprit here. Despite the fact that the media has vested interest in keeping the ”Lucchino as bad guy” story going and that the local wags have a long history of vilifying people without any evidence of wrongdoing.

Meanwhile, John W. Henry, someone with intimate knowledge of what happened with Theo, was on this site a few days ago essentially stating that Epstein’s departure was not a black and white issue. And yet to you, Lucchino is still the reason that the wheels are coming off on Yawkey way.

Larry Lucchino is allegedly a demanding boss. So what? Most effective leaders are, in fact, demanding. And the results of his efforts show up at the ballpark, in the team’s revenues and, if you give him any credit, in the team’s results.

Is he untrustworthy? Or did Theo begin to believe his own press? Is Lucchino a tyrant? Or is Epstein a sensitive type who cannot handle the pressure of working in a demanding market for a tough boss? Did Lucchino sandbag Theo or was the Sox former GM simply a 31 year old guy whose reach may have exceeded his grasp? I don’t know the answers to these questions and neither do you.

I’ve never bought the cliché that Boston Red Sox fans are the most knowledgeable and thoughtful around. But this site used to, at the very least, have posts that reflected a more sophisticated fan. Now, you and your ilk pad your post counts with EEI-level critical analysis and faux insights into the inner workings of the Sox while the more analytical posters have started to go away.

You can change this. Don’t post things simply based on a conclusion you’ve reached via selective press reports. Don’t post lopsided trade ideas. And every time you want to post, don’t post. At the very least, once you’ve posted something, move on.

Its your choice, you can be part of a thoughtful, critical, analytical environment or you can bring this board down to the level of the drooling idiot fan with your continued witch-hunt thoughts based on nothing more than what your biased senses tell you.

[Jim Gosger]

Its your choice, you can be part of a thoughtful, critical, analytical environment or you can bring this board down to the level of the drooling idiot fan with your continued witch-hunt thoughts based on nothing more than what your biased senses tell you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't read anything in this post that was either thoughtful or analytical. I did read a great deal of flaming and uncalled for characterizations. You can disagree with someone without calling them "drooling idiot fans."

[SoxFanSince57]

Jack, I believe that Woodfork's comments were telling/revealing. Apparently, you did not.

[CR67dream]

I guess that I have to come out on JBE's behalf, here, though I can see why some folks would find his post, in a vacuum, to be harsh. There is a certain faction of posters here who continue to villify Lucchino and fellate Theo without any regard for the facts at hand. Gosger,'57, and countless others have beaten the Lucchino is a dickhead angle to death, and it does not surprise me, nor does it bother me, that JBE has finally called BS on that ridiculously transparent agenda.

Get over it. Theo is gone. He is gone of his own volition and free will. I'm not a guy who loves Larry and his style, but for christ's sake, he's not the devil incarnate and he has done one hell of a job as the CEO for the Red Sox. Theo would not have ever been here without him either, though a great many people choose to ignore that simple and basic fact. That in and of itself may not be a sign of drooling idiotism, but it ain't anythng close impressive analytical thinking, either.

Edited by CR67dream, 24 November 2005 - 08:39 PM.

[SpikeMyOwen]

So we can assume he's not there negotiating his return.

So, then WHAT is he up to?

We know he has cleaned out his office long ago, so that's not it.

Maybe he's banging the cleaning lady ala George Costanza. I think it's time to sit back and wait for some real news, you know how Boston (the city) is famous for it's Nationwide Searches... *cough*

[Lose Remerswaal]

Jack, I believe that Woodfork's comments were telling/revealing.  Apparently, you did not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought the same thing when I read them.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If the continued sniping at other posters continues, I will lock this thread.

There's another thread for the GM search. If you have any news about Theo, post it here and let's discuss it. I think we're getting a bit far afield here with some of the comments going up.

Stop with the personal attacks and talk baseball. That goes for posters on both sides of the LL issue. Thank you for your support.

Edited by Smiling Joe Hesketh, 24 November 2005 - 09:06 PM.

[CR67dream]

Well, Woodfork did say "a GM I can trust", not a "CEO I can trust".

So I guess Woodfork must have never trusted Theo! How's that for reading between the lines?

Spin, spin, spin. Think what you will, folks. I love Theo, but he walked, and that decision belongs to Theo alone. Oh well. Hating Larry takes a hell of a lot more bile than brains, I guess.

[allaboutthesox]

Can we stop with this witch hunt type of thing with every single quote? I'm sorry but it's old and it is embarassing.

Where do you get that he was referring to anybody in that? He stated he is moving because he has an opportunity to work with someone he knows and trusts (while getting a promotion). You likely don't even know what question was asked for that response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect to SF57...

I agree Gambler, the bottomline is that is starting to sound as if we are looking into every quote to find some inciteful meaning into Theo's departure. The bottomline he is gone for whatever he reasons he stated or did not state.

Although what was said could be read into.....let's not and move forward. I am one who still wishes Theo was here and I have my own beliefs on the situation, but it doesnt mean I am going to continue on with looking into every quote. Time to move forward and let the chips fall where they may.

The spin of these quotes is getting a little exhausting.

[PedroKsBambino]

What did Woodfork actually say? I haven't seen the quote.

[LooieLooie]

''I think it's just overall a great opportunity to go work for a GM I trust," said Woodfork

Yikes! He took LL strong to the rack, and slammed it home! The backboard is still shaking!

"Ow, my face!" - LL

To quote the great Ned Martin, "Mercy!"

[Manny's Hammies]

Yikes!  He took LL strong to the rack, and slammed it home!  The backboard is still shaking! 

"Ow, my face!" - LL

To quote the great Ned Martin, "Mercy!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah -- dude could've said "'I think it's just overall a great opportunity to go work for a GM..." at this point...

[Cuzittt]

Thread is locked for now. Will be reopened if there is any immediate news regarding Theo.

-Brandon