11 replies to this topic

[Blessyouboys84]

Ron Santo, Jim Kaat and all the other candidates were left out Tuesday when the Veterans Committee admitted no new members for the third straight election.

Link

The players ballot contained:

Dick Allen
Mickey Lolich
Tony Oliva
Bobby Bonds
Sparky Lyle
Al Oliver
Ken Boyer
Marty Marion
Vada Pinson
Rocky Colavito
Roger Maris
Ron Santo
Wes Ferrell
Carl Mays
Luis Tiant
Curt Flood
Minnie Minoso
Joe Torre
Joe Gordon
Thurman Munson
Cecil Travis
Gil Hodges
Don Newcombe
Mickey Vernon
Jim Kaat
Lefty O'Doul
Maury Wills

The composite ballot listed:

Buzzie Bavasi
Whitey Herzog
Gabe Paul
August Busch Jr.
Bowie Kuhn
Paul Richards
Harry Dalton
Billy Martin
Bill White
Charlie Finley
Marvin Miller
Dick Williams
Doug Harvey
Walter O'Malley
Phil Wrigley

Thoughts?

[joewoodfan]

Goes without saying, but I was disappointed to see Joe Wood dropped from the ballot to begin with. He hung on for a long time, and I wish he were still on it.

I would think that Gil Hodges had better chances, too. He was easily dominant for about a decade. Brings ya back to the ol' tenure vs dominance debate, which rolls right into that.

[troparra]

Schmidt, Boggs, Brett, Brooks Robinson, and Eddie Mathews. Those are the most recent HOF inductees from 3rd base (I think). Now I don't think anybody is questioning whether any of these players belong in the HOF. I think they were all First Ballot HOFers, with the exception of Eddie Mathews (and he has 500 home runs). But based on these guys, I still don't see why Ron Santo hasn't gotten in. That guy had it all, with the exception of longevity and the misfortune of playing on the Cubs.
He had five gold gloves, he hit for power, he walked plenty, he drove in runs, he was a 9-time all-star, he was the heart and soul of his team (albeit a mostly bad one), and he was extremely durable (until his career ended suddenly). He was the first 3B to have 300 HR's and win 5 gold gloves.
If you look at his numbers, career totals that is, he's quite a bit superior to Brooks Robinson. He's got more HR's, higher slugging pct, much higher OBP, higher OPS+, and similar RBI's. Robinson has him in gold gloves by a long shot, and other intangibles like his WS performances. But still, I don't see why Santo never got voted in, and has been bypassed by the Vets committee year after year, while Robinson got in on the 1st ballot with 90% of the votes.
You can even compare Santo to George Brett. Brett, of course, has 3000 hits and some intangible things like his .390 season and his WS and playoff exploits. But, if you look at the numbers, while he has a .305 career BA, his OBP is .369 (Santo's is .362). His OPS+ is 135, while Santo's is 125. Santo tops Brett in HR's though (342 to 317) and gold gloves (5 to 1). I mean, it's a stretch to say Santo and Brett are similar, but they are not so far apart as to have Brett get in on the 1st ballot with 98.2% of the votes, while Santo sits and waits.
While Jim Rice has one of those lack of longevity things going also, I believe Rice is borderline. But I'm not so sure Santo is borderline at all.

[Blessyouboys84]

I would think that Gil Hodges had better chances, too. He was easily dominant for about a decade. Brings ya back to the ol' tenure vs dominance debate, which rolls right into that.

For me, it's Mickey Lolich. Three time AL MVP, two time CY, WS MVP. I still remember him beating Bob Gibson in game 7.

sigh...

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

Schmidt, Boggs, Brett, Brooks Robinson, and Eddie Mathews. Those are the most recent HOF inductees from 3rd base (I think). Now I don't think anybody is questioning whether any of these players belong in the HOF. I think they were all First Ballot HOFers, with the exception of Eddie Mathews (and he has 500 home runs). But based on these guys, I still don't see why Ron Santo hasn't gotten in. That guy had it all, with the exception of longevity and the misfortune of playing on the Cubs.

I really think that Santo is a victim of playing on a string of bad Cubs teams, lowlighted by the epic collapse of 1969. And that's compounded by the fact that three members of that core(Banks, Williams, Jenkins) are already in the Hall. We'll never know, but I have a feeling that he would be in if the team had held on in '69.
What's sad is that the guy openly says how much he wants it, really to the point of lobbying for it. It borders on pathetic, and I'm not sure that it helps his case.

[RedSox04]

It's a shame nobody went in. I don't see it changing much any time soon. FWIW, I would vote for Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Tony Oliva (although I'd have to think about that one more carefully - after all, he hit over .300 consistently in an extreme pitchers' era, but he only played 13 years - like Puckett you could say), Jim Kaat, Joe Gordon, and Gil Hodges. I would also have to think about Lefty O'Doul who played in an extreme hitters' era, but I'd probably pass on him.

Eventually (once they're off the writers' ballot), I'd also vote for Rice, Blyleven, and possibly Jack Morris (although his high ERA, even relative for the era, I'd have to think about that more carefully, too.)

Eventually, the more modern HOFers should consider Marvin Miller, who is responsible for their sky high salaries. I'd also vote for Whitey Herzog.

I also hope someday, somehow, Buck O'Neil becomes eligible in some way for entrance into the HOF - at this point I shall step off my soap box. Thank you...

Edited by RedSox04, 27 February 2007 - 08:32 PM.

[marsrover21]

Goes without saying, but I was disappointed to see Joe Wood dropped from the ballot to begin with. He hung on for a long time, and I wish he were still on it.

Smokey Joe Wood was dropped from the ballot? That stinks. He may not have the numbers, but he was a key cog on two World Series team and was very good before a freak injury took his speed away. Perhaps baseball's first "flame thrower."

[joewoodfan]

Smokey Joe Wood was dropped from the ballot? That stinks. He may not have the numbers, but he was a key cog on two World Series team and was very good before a freak injury took his speed away. Perhaps baseball's first "flame thrower."

...And after a terrible arm injury, he turned his career around and became a serviceable outfielder. He & Ruth are the only players to have been in (at least) 2 world series, one as a pitcher, and then again as an outfielder.

Besides, he was absolutely dominant before the injury. You know.

I also hope someday, somehow, Buck O'Neil becomes eligible in some way for entrance into the HOF - at this point I shall step off my soap box. Thank you...

Amen, brothah. This man is incredibly deserving, in my mind. Why, he even gave the induction speech last year (or perhaps the year before). A true travesty that this guy's overlooked so.


Seems like the Hall can't look at stats that don't accumulate over a 20 year period. All their votes of late have been a bit lame and totally predictable. Let's see someone who doesn't follow the 3,000 hit or 500 HR formula! Geez. These are much more possible now with the DH and modern medicine. A few decades ago, a man couldn't go Darth Vader on his right arm like he can now.

[Emoticon Only Poster]

Amen, brothah. This man is incredibly deserving, in my mind. Why, he even gave the induction speech last year (or perhaps the year before). A true travesty that this guy's overlooked so.

B)

[Blessyouboys84]

Eventually, the more modern HOFers should consider Marvin Miller, who is responsible for their sky high salaries.

If you want to consider individuals who had a profound impact on the game, you'd also have to consider Curt Flood. Every player who has benefited from free agency owes his fortune to Mr. Flood's decision to fight the reserve clause.

[RedSox04]

Excellent point about Curt Flood. I guess if you were to vote for Miller, you have to strongly consider Flood, who was an excellent ballplayer, although just on stats alone, not HOF worthy. However if you weigh the fact that he sacrificed the remainder of his career so ballplayers could get their "freedom$$$" ...unfortunately he passed away about 10 years ago and would never be able to enjoy the honor. He also never got to enjoy the end result of what his court case started. Add to that the bigotry he had to put up with and you get a picture of how much crap he had to put up with.

Like O'Neil, Flood is somebody who transcends the numbers. He was a pioneer in a way.

It looks like at this point, the Veterans Committee will be revamped. It has to be. Otherwise, two years from now we'll still get deadlocked, and let's face it, these guys are not historians who have statistical perspective. They will look mainly at their peers. Other eras be damned.

[joewoodfan]

Article on Buck O'Neil and the HOF snubs.