150 replies to this topic

[The Flying Dutchman]

http://www.boston.co..._on_schill.html

"Yeah, I have little doubt in my mind that if Curt wants to pitch in '08 that he's going to be a member of the Boston Red Sox," said Epstein. "As far as the timing of the deal, or the nature of the deal, that remains to be seen. He's sort of at the point in his career where, as an organization, we've been slower to commit guaranteed money in the future. We tend to like guys to kind of prove it at that age but, you know, we're talking and I'm sure there will be an amicable resolution one way or the other."

Edited by AlNipper49, 22 February 2007 - 12:14 PM.
changed title

[CSteinhardt]

If you've never thought much about negotiating a contract before, remember that every contract which is signed is in a sense "win-win". If both sides were not doing better to sign the contract rather than making different choices, it wouldn't happen. So, if you want to know whether a contract is possible here, we can look at the motivation for both sides.

The conditions here appear to be the following:

On the Red Sox side, having spent last year to avoid some of the luxury tax burden in upcoming years, they are in a position now to evaluate G38's $13M asking price as fairly close to $13M. Meanwhile, consider that a visibly diminished Randy Johnson recently got a $26M/2year contract extension from Arizona, and Arizona was willing to give up prospects in addition to that money in order to acquire his services. So from the Red Sox side, that says that $13M/1 represents a hometown discount. From a baseball point of view, given the contracts pitchers were given this offseason, a diminished G38 would still be worth $8-10M next year, and there is every hope that he will continue to be an effective pitcher. And in addition, the goodwill and accompanying merchandising that go along with signing him as well as the ability for him to work with younger pitchers like Beckett and Matsuzaka is worth money as well.

So the Red Sox should, objectively, think that at $13M they are getting a pretty good deal, and could probably even make a deal at $15-17M given the merchandising and goodwill they get out of it.

On the other hand, let's look at it from Schilling's point of view. He's interested in his public image because of future ambitions, and that's worth more to him at this point than some of the extra money he would get as a free agent, particularly because as a free agent he would have to court the Yankees in order to drive his price up. I think he greatly enjoys playing in Boston, and that's worth money to him. He also values his legacy in Boston, and I think he recognizes from what's happened to Nomar's reputation around here that if he does leave Boston, he's not going to get to choose the way that it's presented and it will hurt that legacy. So in the end, if the Red Sox make any offer not deemed to be an insult, then when you consider his future goals, his realistic options are to retire or to accept that offer if his ambitions beyond baseball are what they have been rumored to be.

So, if Schilling is offered $8M, with the idea that Beckett is making $16M in 2007 and 2008 combined, his best course of action is probably to make his case in the media that he's being badly undervalued, but that he's so loyal to the team and the fans that he's willing to accept it, because that increases the value of his legacy and reputation if it's done properly.

By my valuation, there is a whole lot of room to get a deal done here in which both sides should make it happen, and therefore it is going to happen. The question is simply whether it happens closer to $8M or closer to $13M, and that's entirely a question of how effective Theo and G38 turn out to be as negotiators. But unless my valuation is very different from those of the Sox and G38, there is so much room here that a deal of some sort is inevitable.

Edit: And if you read the comments of both G38 and Theo, they seem to be recognizing the same thing, that they can do all the posturing they want in a back room, but at the end of the day both sides understand that any number between $8M and $13M is a good contract, any number between $8M and $13M is a number that at the end of the day both sides could agree on, and both sides would simply like to figure out a way to make the final number fall closer to the one they want.

Edited by CSteinhardt, 20 February 2007 - 12:14 PM.

[The Gray Eagle]

"given the merchandising and goodwill they get out of it."

I understand the goodwill thing, but what "merchandising" do you mean?

In the Manny thread, there's mention of Gammons claiming the Red Sox are not impressed with the dome-bellied Schilling's physical conditioning. If that's true, that's not a good way to show up when you want another year added onto your contract.

[behindthepen]

Apparently, Michael Holley has speculated that the Sox are hesitant to extent Schilling until they see him in action because he's "woefully out of shape."

I don't know if there's any truth to that, but I don't recall Schill ever coming into camp in top shape and he's never been mistaken for a tri-athlete. That said, if he is indeed out of shape, I could understand the Sox' hesistation.

This probably isn't much of a story in that G38's "deadline" was, I believe, the end of Spring Training, and the Sox will likely have sufficient opportunity to evaluate him and whether his fitness level is a concern during that time-frame.

Normally I would never reply to a post like this, but this whole concept of writers and posters throwing shit out there on the topic of conditioning bugs me.

First, we lobbing out there that a writer is speculating somewhere about what someone in the FO might be thinking.
Second, what kind of evidence do we have that he's not in shape? Because he looks like he's gained weight? Do newspaper writers have some magical skill to evaluate conditioning with their eyes? If he was gasping for air after running 1.5 miles, that might be worth reporting, but has anyone heard that?

Schill's a regular at API in the offseason. Wouldn't it be news if he forewent his normal offseason workout routine?

Edited by behindthepen, 20 February 2007 - 12:34 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Normally I would never reply to a post like this, but this whole concept of writers and posters throwing shit out there on the topic of conditioning bugs me.

First, we lobbing out there that a writer is speculating somewhere about what someone in the FO might be thinking.
Second, what kind of evidence do we have that he's not in shape? Because he looks like he's gained weight?

It was Gammons who spoke to someone in the front office and reported what they said, roughly. That's not throwing something against a wall. Given what Holley's reporting, that's two sources recently saying roughly the same thing.

Here's what I wrote in the other thread:

FWIW, Gammo was on ESPN this weekend and said that the Red Sox were not concerned with Manny's tardiness, that they've known that his mother has been sick for a while. Gammo went on to say that the Sox are more concerned that several pitchers have showed up out of shape and mentioned Schilling and Runelvys Hernandez as specific offenders.

As for evidence, looks can be decieving, but still:





He looks a lot bigger than last year. Maybe he's gained weight, maybe he hasn't. Maybe it's just "shirt fat." I know what he'd say if he were on the board. But I think looking at him (no pics of Hernandez) gives one reason to think he's heavier than usual right now.

[behindthepen]

yeah, I gotta admit, that doesn't look good. If he did go to API, it looks like he was stealing Dustin Pedroia's lunch.
But it still doesn't mean he's not conditioned. Hell, David Wells NEVER looked like an athlete.

[flymrfreakjar]

yeah, I gotta admit, that doesn't look good. If he did go to API, it looks like he was stealing Dustin Pedroia's lunch.
But it still doesn't mean he's not conditioned. Hell, David Wells NEVER looked like an athlete.

Yeah but saying "at least he's not as fat as Wells" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. I would consider Wells the exception to the rule... I'm sure he'll be working hard in ST though, and given how highly he values preperation and his competetive nature, I would expect nothing less than for him to be in shape to start the season. He has too much respect for his fans and teammates (as well as himself) not to.

Edited by flymrfreakjar, 20 February 2007 - 02:43 PM.

[B H Kim]

He looks a lot bigger than last year. Maybe he's gained weight, maybe he hasn't. Maybe it's just "shirt fat." I know what he'd say if he were on the board. But I think looking at him (no pics of Hernandez) gives one reason to think he's heavier than usual right now.

Curt from 3/3/06. Doesn't look that much different to me.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

BH, thanks for the pic. You're right; there doesn't appear to be that much of a difference. I was wrong to say he looks "a lot" bigger.

Honestly, the pics don't really tell us much of anything (although he does look a touch heavier in this year's photo). I hadn't even gone looking for the pics until I heard Gammo's report that the Sox were concerned with his conditioning (and then finding out Holley was reporting the same thing).

[paulftodd]

The thing about weight is that while it may not affect you much when you are younger, you pay a price as you get older. Athletes can and do perform well into their 40's. However, they usually have something in common, they are healthy and pay attention to conditioning. You can point to David Wells as being an exception, but he missed most of 2006 due to an injury caused in part by weight.

[ctsoxfan5]

You can point to David Wells as being an exception, but he missed most of 2006 due to an injury caused in part by weight.

He also made 30+ starts at ages 39-42.

[OCD SS]

Since this in turning into a 'Curt Schilling: Weight Watchers' thread...

Durring the '04 ALCS game 6 a friend of mine from France was watching the game with me; I was trying to explain baseball from the ground up so that they could follow it. At one point my friend's girlfriend, while watching Schilling pitch, asked in halting English "Um... they're not exactly... athletes, are they?"

I explained the amount of skill that goes into what Curt was doing, and pointed out that the ball was moving at around 95 MPH.

When has Curt not looked big and unconditioned? I'm more worried about his legs and knees, his arm and shoulder.

[derF]

Link: http://redsox.boston...w...mat=&page=1

"FORT MYERS - Curt Schilling [stats] said he plans to file for free agency after the season if he doesn’t receive a contract extension before the end of spring training but it appears the Red Sox [team stats] are not in a hurry to give him one.

Even though talks between Schilling, who will be paid $13 million this season, and general manager Theo Epstein are under way, Sox chairman Tom Werner said the team is more likely to wait and see how the 40-year-old looks on the mound this season before issuing an extension.

“It’s understandable that a player would be wanting to talk to management about extending a contract,” said Werner, who arrived yesterday with fellow owners John Henry and Larry Lucchino. “It’s also understandable for us to take a peek before giving him more of a ‘yes’ answer.” "

[Worst Trade Evah]

I'm getting a bad feeling from all this "take a peek" business. We know all we need to know about Schilling. If his conditioning gets in the way of his pitching, he'll fix it, because he's a competitor and he does what he needs to compete. If it doesn't get in the way of his pitching, which it never seems to, then who cares? I'm over worrying about old, fat pitchers.

Just sign him already. In this market, in this league, Schilling will be an asset.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I'm getting a bad feeling from all this "take a peek" business. We know all we need to know about Schilling. If his conditioning gets in the way of his pitching, he'll fix it, because he's a competitor and he does what he needs to compete. If it doesn't get in the way of his pitching, which it never seems to, then who cares? I'm over worrying about old, fat pitchers.

Just sign him already. In this market, in this league, Schilling will be an asset.

We've already had 2 reports from 2 different sources that the Sox are concerned about Schilling's conditioning.

He's 40, and while is resume is undeniably impressive, I think it makes sense that they'd want to see how well he's pitching before giving him another $13 million for his age 41 season. Perhaps they've learned from their experience with Wells to take older pitchers one year at a time; they're doing the same with Wakefield and Timlin, neither of whom have injury and conditioning issues as serious as Schilling's.

Schilling has said they can get it done at any point before the start of the season; worrying about the Sox "taking a peek" during the first 2 days of workouts seems awfully high-strung to me.

[Worst Trade Evah]

We've already had 2 reports from 2 different sources that the Sox are concerned about Schilling's conditioning.

He's 40, and while is resume is undeniably impressive, I think it makes sense that they'd want to see how well he's pitching before giving him another $13 million for his age 41 season. Perhaps they've learned from their experience with Wells to take older pitchers one year at a time; they're doing the same with Wakefield and Timlin, neither of whom have injury and conditioning issues as serious as Schilling's.

Schilling has said they can get it done at any point before the start of the season; worrying about the Sox "taking a peek" during the first 2 days of workouts seems awfully high-strung to me.

Exactly what new information are they going to get this spring? If he gets hammered, they won't give him the extension? People get hammered from time to time in spring training, even people who end up having excellent regular seasons. And if he knows he's pitching for a contract, does that distract him from the business of actually getting ready for the year -- where instead of working on what he needs to, he has to push for big numbers?

I don't see the utility of any of this. What would they be looking for? In this market, Schilling's terms are pretty reasonable. He was better than his numbers showed last year, in part because the team in the field behind him (especially the outfield defense) was awful.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Exactly what new information are they going to get this spring? If he gets hammered, they won't give him the extension? People get hammered from time to time in spring training, even people who end up having excellent regular seasons. And if he knows he's pitching for a contract, does that distract him from the business of actually getting ready for the year -- where instead of working on what he needs to, he has to push for big numbers?

I don't see the utility of any of this. What would they be looking for? In this market, Schilling's terms are pretty reasonable. He was better than his numbers showed last year, in part because the team in the field behind him (especially the outfield defense) was awful.

Here's the question they may be asking themselves: if he wants another year, why did he apparently arrive in camp in less than peak condition?

All they want to do, as they've said, is "take a peek." Perhaps it's merely a motivational ploy to ensure Schilling gets back into top condition. It's been 2 whole days in camp so far; this is hardly at DEFCON 5 yet. I have no problem with the FO waiting a bit before deciding if they should offer a deal.

[Rudy Pemberton]

There's a few reasons why the Sox would want to wait even though what Schilling is asking for is technically "reasonable". They already have Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Lester under contract for next year; with young studs (according to many) like Bowden and I am an Idiot on the way. If many of these things fall into place the way many suggest they will...they may need see the need to commit another $13M to Schilling. Extending him now represents a risk that he gets hurt or isn't as effective as he used to be...now that risk would be well worth it for many teams but given the Sox situation with payroll and the pitching staff, I can understand why they want to wait.

Of course, if Curt pitches well I'm sure the price will go up. So, there's risk in that regard but again, the Sox may feel that is worth it given their situation.

In a vacuum, Curt is totally worth 2 years, $26M. But given the Sox situation and Curt's relative struggles in the second half (which may be related to defensive issues that no longer exist) I can understand their trepidation. Add in his age and supposed shape and you can see why they may want to wait a little bit, right?

It's in Curt's favor to get this done now, but not so much for the Sox, right?

[Worst Trade Evah]

There's a few reasons why the Sox would want to wait even though what Schilling is asking for is technically "reasonable". They already have Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Lester under contract for next year; with young studs (according to many) like Bowden and I am an Idiot on the way. If many of these things fall into place the way many suggest they will...they may need see the need to commit another $13M to Schilling. Extending him now represents a risk that he gets hurt or isn't as effective as he used to be...now that risk would be well worth it for many teams but given the Sox situation with payroll and the pitching staff, I can understand why they want to wait.

Of course, if Curt pitches well I'm sure the price will go up. So, there's risk in that regard but again, the Sox may feel that is worth it given their situation.

In a vacuum, Curt is totally worth 2 years, $26M. But given the Sox situation and Curt's relative struggles in the second half (which may be related to defensive issues that no longer exist) I can understand their trepidation. Add in his age and supposed shape and you can see why they may want to wait a little bit, right?

It's in Curt's favor to get this done now, but not so much for the Sox, right?

Every single one of Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Lester is as much or more of a question mark than Schilling (or simply nowhere near as good), with the possible exception of Matsuzaka. And how much are people really expecting from Bowden and Buchholz in 2008? Even if things go well, that's their rookie season. Last year, we were down to starting pitcher no. 13 or whatever on the depth chart, and now we're contemplating ditching Schilling in 2008 because of how he might look in a few spring training games in 2007, while penciling in Bowden and Buchholz?

If we're not contemplating ditching Schilling in 2008, then why aren't they signing him? Again, what do they think they're going to learn from this spring training? Say he shows up and gets rocked -- he doesn't get the extension? With a pitcher like Schilling, the information you need is already out there. The extra information you get from spring training 2007 is pretty irrelevant.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Every single one of Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Lester is as much or more of a question mark than Schilling (or simply nowhere near as good), with the possible exception of Matsuzaka.

But how many of those guys are looking for $13M extensions a year?

If we're not contemplating ditching Schilling in 2008, then why aren't they signing him? Again, what do they think they're going to learn from this spring training? Say he shows up and gets rocked -- he doesn't get the extension? With a pitcher like Schilling, the information you need is already out there. The extra information you get from spring training 2007 is pretty irrelevant.

What if they sign him now and then he gets hurt? I don't know, I just don't see what's really in it for the Sox to act right now at Curt's price, given their current roster composition and payroll. Their should be some negotiation here, which is what I assume is happening, and the Sox obviously want some kind of protection in case of injury, which Curt apparently doesn't want to give.

From the Sox perspective, why do they HAVE to act on this right now?

For a guy of Schilling's age, it's obviously best going year to year....extending him now is essentially giving him a 2-year deal. If he was a free agent (Mussina, for example) than that is what you have to do to attract the player...but it is somewhat of a gamble and given the Sox supposed pitching strength, I can understand exercising caution. Not that I necessarily agree with it at all.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 21 February 2007 - 10:18 AM.

[Jimbodandy]

Here's the question they may be asking themselves: if he wants another year, why did he apparently arrive in camp in less than peak condition?

All they want to do, as they've said, is "take a peek." Perhaps it's merely a motivational ploy to ensure Schilling gets back into top condition. It's been 2 whole days in camp so far; this is hardly at DEFCON 5 yet. I have no problem with the FO waiting a bit before deciding if they should offer a deal.

True. It doesn't have to get done in February. On the other hand, we're still talking about committing one additional year below market rate. I hope that they don't drag it out too long.

[Razor Shines]

Interesting tidbit from Rob Bradford's Spring Training Blog. Someone e-mailed him a question regarding Schilling's much-publicized physique.

His answer:

I know this has been a big topic, but I honestly don't see it. Put it this way - Schilling executed the fielding drills yesterday better than any of the other members in the rotation. His side to side mobility wasn't affected, and neither has his stuff thus far. In terms of a contract going forward, I think they know what they are going to get with Curt. Ask the question again at end of March and we will have a better gauge.

Link

Just one guy's opinion from watching one day of drills, but it's still refreshing to hear. Bradford isn't really a "rose colored glasses" type of guy.

[Resonance Wright]

my $.02

It's not about money. It's not about the FO business plan, either. It doesn't need to be.

It's about a good bet, and it's about respect. I think that he's worth it.

Papi got that kind of respect and more, and there were reasons to give it to him. I think the same reasons are valid for Schill. Looking around the bloated FA contracts this off season, does anyone think that he would have got less for a one year contract this year somewhere on the open market if he were a free agent? I'd be surprised if it weren't much higher. If he were signing a two year deal in this inflated market does he get less than 26 million? The worst that can happen to the team that signs him is the worst that can happen to any team who signed a veteran free agent to a multiyear contract this off season -- an injury and they're essentially out his salary for at least two years. The Sox can handle this, if it were to come to it. This is the team that's taking a chance on Joel Pineiro with the 4 million that they found doing JH's laundry one week. Is betting 13 million that Schilling gives us two more 2006 type seasons somehow a worse bet than Pineiro turning into a legitimate closer? I don't know why he asked the way he did but I'll assume he had good reasons to want it done. So give it to him. It's baseball. How many million dollars was his performance in the 2004 postseason worth, anyway, to the Boston Red Sox? Figuratively, and financially? Figure it was more than 4/52 and a fifth year at 13 more, but maybe that's just me.

[SoxFanPJ]

Perhaps the FO is waiting to see if other potentially attractive alternatives (ex. Carlos Zambrano) sign extensions before the season starts. It seems to be the modus operandi for many players in their walk year to cut off negotiations at the start of the season and wait until free agency begins.

If you figure that the FO has 2008 penciled in as: 1) Matsuzaka 2) Beckett, 3) Papelbon, 4) Lester, 5) ????

The FO has the option of bringing back Wakefield with the team option after the season, attempting to sign Schilling now or after the season, or seeking a potentially more attractive FA after the season (Zambrano).

I actually would like to see Schilling back in 2008, but adding another young SP like Zambrano to a long term deal would give the FO more flexibility with its pitching prospects, i.e some of them could be used in trade to fill positions that the organization is weak in.

Of course signing Schilling doesn't make it impossible to add a FA pitcher like Zambrano next season, however it makes it fiscally more difficult if the team wants to avoid another major bump in payroll.

[JakeRae]

Perhaps the FO is waiting to see if other potentially attractive alternatives (ex. Carlos Zambrano) sign extensions before the season starts. It seems to be the modus operandi for many players in their walk year to cut off negotiations at the start of the season and wait until free agency begins.

If you figure that the FO has 2008 penciled in as: 1) Matsuzaka 2) Beckett, 3) Papelbon, 4) Lester, 5) ????

The FO has the option of bringing back Wakefield with the team option after the season, attempting to sign Schilling now or after the season, or seeking a potentially more attractive FA after the season (Zambrano).

I actually would like to see Schilling back in 2008, but adding another young SP like Zambrano to a long term deal would give the FO more flexibility with its pitching prospects, i.e some of them could be used in trade to fill positions that the organization is weak in.

Of course signing Schilling doesn't make it impossible to add a FA pitcher like Zambrano next season, however it makes it fiscally more difficult if the team wants to avoid another major bump in payroll.

Please, stay away from Zambrano. He is a phenomenal talent and would be worth every penny he got paid on a 2-3 year deal. But, given the abuse he's suffered under Dusty Baker, I want no part of him with the number of years he will end up signing for. He'll get a 7 year contract, and that is just crazy for any pitcher, but particularly one who's been through what Zambrano has been through. I would rather have Zambrano than Schilling in 2008. Given the same money and assuming a 6-7 year deal, I'd take Schilling every time. That's without accounting for how much extra Zambrano will make even next year. Sign the extension with G38 and let the farm keep feeding pitchers to the rotation. The only wildcard is if Lester and Wakefield are going to both deserve starting spots next year. But, 6 starters never hurt anyone, did it?

[BoSoxLady]

Schill's on 'EEI right now! Spoke with Theo yesterday and was informed they'll treat it like a business and will not discuss a contract extension until after the end of the season. He will file for FA and see what happens. I understand their thinking but IMO, they owe it to him to give him the extension. Perhaps they don't want to set a precedent since this is the manner in which they do business. Color me disappointed.

Edited by BoSoxLady, 22 February 2007 - 11:57 AM.

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Recap and quotateds:, courtesy Extra Bases blog

“They’re not going to offer me a contract until after the season,” Schilling told WEEI’s John Dennis and Gerry Callahan.

Schilling said this morning that he spoke with Sox GM Theo Epstein about the situation yesterday, and that the decision not to make him a contract offer until season’s end was made for business reasons, not personal ones.

Schilling reiterated that even if he wasn’t pitching in Boston next season, he wouldn’t consider signing with the Yankees.

“That’s not a place I think I could finish my career after what’s happened here,” he said.

So what happens now?

“Now we go about getting ready for the season and doing the things we do,” Schilling said.

[5belongstoGeorge]

You know, even I get special treatment at my job ... I do not understand the need to conform to some set of arbitrary "negotiating protocols".

Allienating men with pro ballplayer sized egos, if that is what happened, can't be good for business. If Curt does well this year the price just went up. Theo, or Lucky Larry, or whoever made this "business decision" shoud pay the difference in cost out of their own pocket.

[Razor Shines]

I understand their thinking but IMO, they owe it to him to give him the extension. Perhaps they don't want to set a precedence since this is the manner in which they do business. Color me disappointed.

While I am also disappointed that they won't consider making a deal after Spring Training (just to be sure is in somewhat decent shape), I can see their reasoning. If they owed this type of special treatment to anyone, it would have been Pedro Martinez, who pitched 1 or 2 of the greatest seasons ever for this team.

But, they let him go to free agency, and he was much less of a question mark than Schilling, at this point.

[Clemente38]

Put me in the disappointed column. If with this decision Theo is saying "I want to make sure Curt is still the same pitcher, and I'm willing to pay a few million more in the Fall for that confirmation than I am right now" then ok I guess. Theo is making Curt take the risk and Theo will have to pay for that at the end of the year.

Given what we saw it took to win in '04, the total commitment from some players, I don't like the emotional side of this. This must be why I'm not the GM, I'd make the deal now. I believe that Curt is worth it and earned it. Sure, Curt will pitch this year with something to prove but it is a one year deal not a long-term commitment and once it goes to FA there are variables out of your control. Theo gives some things up with this decision. I vote wrong decision on this one Theo.

Never too much pitching, never too much pitching.

[Jethro Q. Walrustitty]

Put me in the disappointed column. If with this decision Theo is saying "I want to make sure Curt is still the same pitcher, and I'm willing to pay a few million more in the Fall for that confirmation than I am right now" then ok I guess. Theo is making Curt take the risk and Theo will have to pay for that at the end of the year.

But there's risk on both sides. Curt could have a great year and cash in for a $17M contract for 2008. Or, his ankle could act up again, he could only make 20 starts this year in which case he'll probably have to accept $10M or even less. One thing Theo has going for him is that he doesn't get sentimental about Sox veterans, and makes sound business decisions. He was right to trade Nomar. He was right not to give Pedro 4 years. We'll see how it goes with Damon over the next few years. So I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt on G38.

[Paul M]

I'd like Curt back next year, but there really was no reason to do this now. Worst-case scenario is the Sox have to pay up--given that I do believe Curt does want to pitch in Boston and not NY next year.

Emotionally, I can see the angst from fans, but he'll be 41 next year.

Two things that could happen, positively, is the Sox spur Schilling even more than usual and he has a great year, and two this distraction will not be an issue once the season begins.

[rph22]

Now this hangs over the team all season.

The Pedro comparison is not valid, it's apples and oranges. He wanted a multi-year contract extension with a significant financial outlay; in fact, they DID do this for Martinez when they picked up his option well before they had to in order to placate him.

Schilling is 1 year for fair value if he repeats or even slightly regresses from his performance last year. In fact, Schilling for $13m in this market could be a tremendous bargain.

Don't get it at all, shame on Theo and the owners. Short-sighted, penny wise and pound foolish.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

While I was fine with the FO 'taking a peek" at Schilling before making a decision on a contract extension, I am a bit surprised they decided so early not to talk about one until after the season is over. I thought they'd give it another week or so at the minimum. Perhaps they're gun-shy after the David Wells experience.

All that being said, I'm pretty damn positive that Schilling is not going to let his contract status get in the way of his usual meticulous preparation. He's one player who I don't think would let contract status affect his play on the field.

An immediate positive I can see from the FO's decision is that the matter has been settled for the next 7 months. While I'm sure the contract status will be brought up by the media quite often during the season, I'm comfortable in thinking that neither the FO or Schilling will worry themselves about it.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I don't get the arguments though. If Curt loves Boston and really wants to finish his career here, why must he receive a contract equal to what he is making this year? Mussina is a pretty similar, younger pitcher, and he got 2 years, $23M right? Seeing how the Sox already have Curt on a 1 year, $13M deal...an extension at $10-$11M seems fair to me. Hell, throw in some incentives that push it up to $13M if he pitches as well as he did last year. But this is a business and in the end; the name on the front of the jersey is the most important. Lets hope this doesn't become a constant story. If Curt wants to have a phenomenal season and bolt for a few million at the end of the year, well, that's a risk the Sox will likely be glad to take.

[ExtremelyEasyEd]

This is a good decision by Theo. All possible outcomes are good:

1. He has a good 2007 and he resigns with the Sox for 2008
2. He has a bad year (probably injury related) and the Sox aren't on the hook for $13 big ones for 2008
3. He has a good 2007 and signs with someone else for 2008 but the Sox get 2 high draft picks

I will hate to see him leave and I will never forget what he did for the team in 2004. However, the Sox can't pay players in 2008 for what they did in 2004.

[86spike]

I am completely on board with ownership on this one.

Do you guys remember the way Curt pitched in the second half last year?

The guy was very, very inconsistent and looked nothing like an ace. (he had a July ERA of 4.74 and an August ERA of 5.22) If he has another year like that one... he's probably worth signing... but not as a rotation-leading #1 pitcher.

I'm hoping Curt proves me wrong, but I don't really expect him to be much better this year and if he's not, Theo will look very wise for not extending him sight unseen. The downside for Theo is that Curt comes back strong and then costs more than $13M for '08. With Clement's albatross coming of the books, there will be money in the pitching budget to cover it.

And let's not get melodramatic about this 'hanging over the team all season.' The only way that happens is if Schilling brings it up over and over... but he has said he will not do that and I believe him.

Edited by 86spike, 22 February 2007 - 09:09 AM.

[Cumberland Blues]

I really think this boils down to the Sox deciding that they'd rather pay $16M for Curt in '08 knowing he had a healthy '07 than $13M hoping he will have a healthy '07. I think it's the right call. If he's healthy - I don't care how much they pay him. If he ain't healthy, I don't want them stuck w/ a $13M liability. If Curt signs elsewhere - there will be other pitchers they can sign or trade for - but if he's hurt and they owe him $13M, while there will still be other options, they'll have less flexibility in choosing among those options.

[JimD]

The downside for Theo is that Curt comes back strong and then costs more than $13M for '08.

I understand it's a downside in terms of a possible contract extension, but a strong '07 performance from Schill would be a huge upside for the Boston Red Sox.

[jayhoz]

While I was fine with the FO 'taking a peek" at Schilling before making a decision on a contract extension, I am a bit surprised they decided so early not to talk about one until after the season is over. I thought they'd give it another week or so at the minimum. Perhaps they're gun-shy after the David Wells experience.

All that being said, I'm pretty damn positive that Schilling is not going to let his contract status get in the way of his usual meticulous preparation. He's one player who I don't think would let contract status affect his play on the field.

An immediate positive I can see from the FO's decision is that the matter has been settled for the next 7 months. While I'm sure the contract status will be brought up by the media quite often during the season, I'm comfortable in thinking that neither the FO or Schilling will worry themselves about it.

I completely agree. Schilling isn't the type to allow the business side of his relationship with the FO impact his play on the field and said as much this morning. Two scenarios will play out over the course of the season. 1) Schilling has a stellar year and the Sox pay a small premium that they would not have had to pay if they did the deal today. 2) Schilling regresses and the Sox let him walk or they sign him at a discount. Never say never, but I can't see Schilling playing in pinstripes after his comments, including more today.

The media will make a big deal of this, and given Curt's fondness for exposure will feed this to some degree. I think that he will make an effort to limit the impact this has on the clubhouse. As with all things baseball; if the team is winning this won't be a big deal.

[rph22]

And let's not get melodramatic about this 'hanging over the team all season.' The only way that happens is if Schilling brings it up over and over... but he has said he will not do that and I believe him.

I don't think that's either melodramitic or an unreasonable concern. Schilling bringing it up is absolutely not the only way this happens. It will be a running commentary in the media and with the fans.

Have you ever been in a Major League clubhouse? I have. If you think this isn't and won't be a topic, and fairly big one, you are either mistaken or naive.

[Razor Shines]

I don't think that's either melodramitic or an unreasonable concern. Schilling bringing it up is absolutely not the only way this happens. It will be a running commentary in the media and with the fans.

Have you ever been in a Major League clubhouse? I have. If you think this isn't and won't be a topic, and fairly big one, you are either mistaken or naive.

It will only be a running commentary with the fans and media if he's pitching well. And if he's pitching well, it likely means the team is doing well, and the clubhouse will probably be harmonious.

If he's not pitching well, nobody (not even CHB), will be raking the front office over the coals for not signing him.

[86spike]

I don't think that's either melodramitic or an unreasonable concern. Schilling bringing it up is absolutely not the only way this happens. It will be a running commentary in the media and with the fans.

Have you ever been in a Major League clubhouse? I have. If you think this isn't and won't be a topic, and fairly big one, you are either mistaken or naive.

good for you... so in your educated opinion, how does this becoem a 'fairly big' topic in the clubhouse... by reporters bringing it up? You don't think Schilling can handle himself around reporters and not let them rile him up?

Let it be a topic in the media and with the fans - I don't think Schilling will allow it to bother him one bit. In fact, it probably motivates him to be the best he can to prove Theo wrong.

[Manny's Hammies]

A point brought up by a colleague here (and brother of a Son of Sam Horn) is whether the Sox "saw" something they didn't like when Curt reported this month.

[Fratboy]

This stuff happens on a regular basis. Red Sox fans take it more personally this time around because this is an issue that happens to be facing them directly.

Given the last two years, this is perfectly reasonable for the Sox to do. Curt's initial 4 year contract expires at the end of 2007, as the Red Sox had originally intended. What their plans were beyond 2007 we do not know, and I think it's likely that Curt does not fit into them. Like 86Spike said, if the Curt Schilling that pitches in 2007 bears a passing resemblence to the one pitching in 2005 and the second half of 2006, then I'm not interested in him re-signing. Remember, he's only been decent for 1/4 of the last two seasons. And you're not paying someone to "reward" them for past performance - the payday is anticipation of future performance, and I'm not entirely convinced we'll see that from him in 2007.

As was posited on D&C this morning, I'd be totally on board for a Carlos Zambrano signing. Sox fans would love him. Too bad we wouldn't see his bat, because he's a good hitter for a pitcher.

I don't place much loyalty in players, just as players tend to not place much loyalty to the franchise they play for.

[rph22]

good for you... so in your educated opinion, how does this becoem a 'fairly big' topic in the clubhouse... by reporters bringing it up? You don't think Schilling can handle himself around reporters and not let them rile him up?

Let it be a topic in the media and with the fans - I don't think Schilling will allow it to bother him one bit. In fact, it probably motivates him to be the best he can to prove Theo wrong.

First off, I realize that clubhouse comment could sound like I was being a d*ck; I didn't mean for it to be that way. Just saying that I've seen instances where things like this linger more than anyone on the outside ever knows.

The problem is that the media and fans aren't confined to their own world; they interact with the players daily. These types of stories linger throughout the season, whether Schilling talks about it or not. On the outside you may never see a ripple when inside the clubhouse there is bitterness and vitriol, and that can take a toll over the course of a season. These are professionals whose number one concern is making a living.

If a leader of the team and a borderline Hall of Famer states publicly that he wants to continue playing for the team, and the team is unwilling to meet what are widely considered fair and reasonable contract demands, it has an effect on the clubhouse. This is not Alex Cora playing a lame duck season.

I don't mean to imply that they should have signed him solely to avoid distraction, and I also am not implying that it being a distraction means they can't win a World Series. The point is when you take the whole set of circumstances, on the field and off, in my opinion, the Red Sox were better off extending him for one more season now. In today's market I think the risk/reward in this scenario is in their favor. Maybe not by a lot, but still in their favor.

There seems to be a sentiment that he will automatically sign here if he has a good season and the Sox offer him good money. I don't necessarily think that's the case. He may say it is a business and he understands that, but business is conducted by human beings with emotions and, in this case very large, egos. His giant fah-q to the Sox could be a good '07 followed by a sunset season in Arizona or Philly. Not the end of the world I know, but he's still a pretty good, reasonably priced Major League starter, and those aren't always easy to find.

[SpinnersRock]

I expected more from Theo and the FO with Curt. An additional year contract at his current salary would not have been out of line based on what starting pitching is receiving in this market. Couple that with the fact on what Curt has given to this team, well, I am very disappointed. If Curt wants multiple years then I can understand some of thsi but if what Curt has said and wehat we have read is correct, then I'm still shocked.

In reality there are always different ways star players are treated /negotiated with and having been in IT for 25 years, its the same way in Business. You can't treat everyone the same way. It just doesn't work that way. Not in business and not in sports. There needs to be some level of loyalty both ways.

Curt gave his all in bringing us a championship (as did Foulke and many others) we could at least give him a 1 yr extension.

This has the potential to bring a bad cloud over this team .... not that it will but the potential does exist.

This was not what I wanted to read this morning when I got to work ....

[Rudy Pemberton]

If a leader of the team and a borderline Hall of Famer states publicly that he wants to continue playing for the team, and the team is unwilling to meet what are widely considered fair and reasonable contract demands, it has an effect on the clubhouse.

Isn't the opposite also true? If Ortiz and Papelbon want extensions, what should the Sox do? The team is bigger than one guy...if Curt really wants to be on the Red Sox and this isn't about money, the money will be there at the end of the year. Acting now benefits Curt, but not really anyone else.

[CR67dream]

and the team is unwilling to meet what are widely considered fair and reasonable contract demands

Widely considered? By whom? Fans? Media? Sure, on the face of it coming back for the same money as this year may sound reasonable, but I for one am very glad that the FO sees beyond the hype, and realizes that moving to commit 13 million dollars when they absolutely don't have to would be a fool's errand. I'm a bit surprised that they've shut the door until the end of the season (and not sure that I entirely believe that), but it certainly seems preferable than to lay out all that cash before being sure that it's a solid investment.

As far as this being a distraction, if it is, it'll be one of the most minor ones we've seen over the past few years. I don't believe for a minute that either Schilling, any other Red Sox player, or any member of the front office is going to let this get in the way of putting their best performance forward. Maybe the media and a certain subset of fans will blather on about this, but that's to be expected, and is different than a true distraction.

I hope Curt has a great year. It's really not in anyone's best interest for him not to.

[rph22]

Isn't the opposite also true? If Ortiz and Papelbon want extensions, what should the Sox do? The team is bigger than one guy...if Curt really wants to be on the Red Sox and this isn't about money, the money will be there at the end of the year. Acting now benefits Curt, but not really anyone else.

Valid point, but as others have stated, all players are not treated equally. Plus this Sox regime has extended players before their contract was up in the past, so it is not as if this would have been deviating wildly from what they've done before.

Hopefully it ends up being a non-issue.