869 replies to this topic

[PedroKsBambino]

What's best for the team also includes treating players well, because that's a big part of being able to attract future FAs and getting guys to accept trades here. That's the big-picture here.

It doesn't mean you do whatever the guy wants, but you need to figure it in. Remember the days when players had "no-trade to Boston" clauses? Obviously a lot of reasons for those, but making sure they don't exist going forward is in the best interests of the Red Sox.

Also, keep in mind that forcing Wells to come back is not in the team's interest, either.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I understand your point, PKB...but the Red Sox are being used here. They offered Wells far more than anyone else (by all accounts) and now he's backing out of that deal because he figured out Boston isn't on the west coast? Bullshit. He also was dying to be a Yankee this year, so I'm not sure where this desire to play in CA is coming from. He knew the deal going in. The Red Sox won't have trouble attracting FA's as long as they are offering lots of money- which was the problem here.

I think the message is- be skeptical of players who are only on your team because you are offering them the most.

Roberts, Payton, Wells, Ramirez...I dunno. What the hell is going on here?

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 21 October 2005 - 10:11 AM.

[Todd Benzinger]

What's best for the team also includes treating players well, because that's a big part of being able to attract future FAs and getting guys to accept trades here.  That's the big-picture here. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, and it has been refreshing to see Theo take this into account... although it's beginning to escalate in a way that's starting to cause problems: Manny list of two teams, and Wells, are different than the seemingly good deals Theo put together for Roberts and Payton... It will be really hard to get anything back for those guys under the circumstances.

A dump for dump like Glaus is probably the best case scenario here; otherwise, we have to hope that Theo can work some magic with the salary slot.

[Todd Benzinger]

I do wonder what the underlying story is here... Did the Sox tell him they wouldn't guarantee to make max effort to get him his incentives or something?

[Comfortably Lomb]

Possible blessing in disguise here.

When he signed with the Sox I was hoping there would be a way to keep him healthy for all of 2005 and to get rid of him before 2006. I know he's actually been a relatively healthy workhorse these past few years but you can only keep so many old and overweight starters around before you're just asking to see most of your rotation go down. Besides, I'm sure the 2006 version of Curt Schilling will be more than able to fill Wells' role in the rotation as an old, overweight, injury prone, and overpaid starter. How many of those guys do we really need when there are plenty of other pitchers who are flawed in all of the above ways but younger?

[Comfortably Lomb]

Roberts, Payton, Wells, Ramirez...I dunno. What the hell is going on here?

Roberts and Payton are bad examples since they were both aquired via trade. Expecting them to be happy about being plucked away from their former teams and cities is generally a little ridiculous, especially when capable of starting for some teams but aquired to be a fourth outfielder like in Payton's case. Wells and Ramirez are completely different since they chose to sign here. Apples and oranges.

[mr guido]

Not sure why we didn't think of this before but Wells fits the profile of player that the SF Geriatrics seem to be interested in.

Interesting note. Jeff Fassero is a 42 year old lefty with a career ERA of 4.08. David Wells is a 42 year old lefty with a career ERA of 4.06. Yet one earned $500k last year and the other earned $9 million. I think Fassero is a FA this year, but if not let's just swap 'em and call it a day.

[PedroKsBambino]

It seems like people's dislike of Wells and feelings about his signing and the alternatives are driving a lot of the antipathy here. It's also interesting that people who have been describing his contract as a bad one are now upset that the Sox will likely end up getting rid of it.

If he were a FA right now he'd likely get more guaranteed money than he has remaining on this deal. Maybe with the incentives he'll earn more in 2006 than he would if he were currently a FA, but only if he has another solid year.

I would rather he remain in Boston than not, but the guy pitched well while he was here, and now he wants out. Not my first choice, but I'm going to wait to see how it plays out before killing the guy.

[The Gray Eagle]

"What's best for the team also includes treating players well, because that's a big part of being able to attract future FAs and getting guys to accept trades here. That's the big-picture here."

This is David Wells we're talking about here. Everyone in baseball knows that he's always complaining about something. He's played for what, 10 teams? And it seems like he's griped about something in every single town. If you won't sign with a team because Wells was unhappy there, then you are cutting yourself off from about half the teams in the game.

I have no problem trading Wells for something that will improve the team. If we could get Linebrink for him, that would be fine. I have no problem with Wells retiring and sparing us $8 million or so to find another starter with. But this team should not be dumping him for pennies on the dollar just because he'd be unhappy to stay here. He'd be unhappy about something wherever he was. If he's so unhappy, he should just retire. Or at the least, let some of his incentives go in exchange for being traded, to make it easier for us to get value in return. At the very least.

[SoxsFans]

Roberts and Payton are bad examples since they were both aquired via trade.  Expecting them to be happy about being plucked away from their former teams and cities is generally a little ridiculous, especially when capable of starting for some teams but aquired to be a fourth outfielder like in Payton's case.  Wells and Ramirez are completely different since they chose to sign here.  Apples and oranges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And to be fair to Manny, he signed while a different ownership group, different GM, different Manager where in place. Perhaps he just does not like TerryFrancona.....

Just pointing out that things change over time....... Do you like every decision you made 5 years ago?

[mr guido]

What's the latest word on the Jason Schmidt sitauation out in SF? In 2006 he's got a $10m deal or a $3m buyout.

Here's a wacky one for you.

If they're planning on keeping him that's one thing. If they're planning to jettison him, they could pick up his option and send him with $1m to Boston. Sox pay Schmidt the same Wells was due to recieve ($9m) w/ full incentives. Giants, rather than paying $3m to Scmidt for nothing, pay Wells $5m plus up to $5m of incentives if he pitches the whole year... the equivalent of signing a $7m FA.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Just pointing out that things change over time....... Do you like every decision you made 5 years ago?

Manny's been complaining since the beginning, though, hasn't he?

Wells signed here last year. He knew which coast Boston was on; and he was dying to go to NY too.

Why did he choose Boston over SD?

MONEY!!!!! You can't have your cake and eat it too. Or maybe you can.

As far as Schmidt goes, I like that deal.....but I'm not sure the Giants would do it. Wouldn't they be better off trading Schmidt (they could get a lot, I imagine) and then signing someone like Wells?

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 21 October 2005 - 10:44 AM.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

I am OK about Wells leaving, and hopefully this will all happen smoothly, and without the requisite spin from either side. He pitched OK, although going forward I am not comfortable with Wells being an above average starter for a playoff team.

As of this moment, I am not attaching anything sinister to this. He came to Boston because he thought it was a good situation for him, and he later decided the location was more important to me then he had thought. Have I made such reversals in my own life? Yes. Its a business for both sides.

[502 to Right]

I have no problem trading Wells for something that will improve the team. If we could get Linebrink for him, that would be fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure why people think the Padres would give up Scott Linebrink for David Wells. Linebrink has put up ERA's of 2.14 and 1.83 in the last two years (OPS+ of 187 and 210) and strikes out 9 hitters per 9 IP. He's a stud.

Living near San Diego (and hearing about their plans almost daily on the radio) I can tell you the Padres' plan is that Linebrink will close for them in 2006 (if they don't re-sign Trevor Hoffman) or 2007 at the latest.

I could see them giving up either Brian Lawrence or Aki Otsuka, however. They really soured on Aki in the second half and Brian Lawrence was so shaky during the regular season he couldn't even crack the post-season starting rotation.

[Remagellan]

What's the latest word on the Jason Schmidt sitauation out in SF?  In 2006 he's got a $10m deal or a $3m buyout.

Here's a wacky one for you.

If they're planning on keeping him that's one thing.  If they're planning to jettison him, they could pick up his option and send him with $1m to Boston.  Sox pay Schmidt the same Wells was due to recieve ($9m) w/ full incentives.  Giants, rather than paying $3m to Scmidt for nothing, pay Wells $5m plus up to $5m of incentives if he pitches the whole year... the equivalent of signing a $7m FA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Theo can spin a year of David Wells into a year of Jason Schmidt, he would deserve whatever figure he's asking for in his current negotiations with the owners.

[Rudy Pemberton]

As of this moment, I am not attaching anything sinister to this. He came to Boston because he thought it was a good situation for him, and he later decided the location was more important to me then he had thought. Have I made such reversals in my own life? Yes. Its a business for both sides.

I dunno, at his press conference upon signing here he mentioned how the Red Sox blew other teams out of the water with their offer. I think he came here for a few million reasons, and while that's fair, I have a problem with him now wanting out. He wants the most money and the location he wants; he should have thought about the location when he signed here (or vice versa).

It's the same with Manny- he came here because the Sox had the best offer, and has annually made waves about wanting out.

I'd accomodate him if the Sox can get equal value; but it makes an already shaky pitching stuff much shakier. The idea that the Sox can get someone like Jason Schmidt for him seems like a pipe dream (the really risky Schmidt will surely ask for an extension if traded). Brian Lawrence is probably a realistic option, and while I've always been a big fan, he's another #4-#5 starter and a guy who has regressed.

Maybe Wells and Manny will just forefeit their contracts to go to places they want to be.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 21 October 2005 - 10:56 AM.

[staz]

if we trade him from San Diego we're not getting Otsuka, maybe we get Scott Linebrink

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why? Is Otsuka that much better than Linebrink?
Linebrink
Otsuka

[Comfortably Lomb]

And to be fair to Manny, he signed while a different ownership group, different GM, different Manager where in place.  Perhaps he just does not like TerryFrancona.....

Just pointing out that things change over time....... Do you like every decision you made 5 years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And to be totally fair abbout this... he signed with a worse ownership, a worse GM, a worse manager, and what was a worse team.

No, I don't like every decision I make either but he's in better shape now than he was five years ago. The guy signed here, I couldn't care less if he's happy or not unless he starts throwing temper tantrums in the dugout.

[LateRally]

Isn't it at least conceivable that besides the money, another major reason for Wells coming to Boston was the chance at another ring? Well, it didn't happen, and maybe he doesn't see it happening next year either. Or maybe he decided it's more important to finish up his career out west, having 2 rings in his pocket already. Is this selfish? Absolutely. But no different than a lot of other hired guns these days. And I think it's a reach to say he had, or should have had, all this on his mind the day he signed with Boston. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying there were only two things he was thinking about that day: money and a ring. The rest of it, you chalk it up to people being entitled to change their minds.

[mr guido]

As far as Schmidt goes, I like that deal.....but I'm not sure the Giants would do it. Wouldn't they be better off trading Schmidt (they could get a lot, I imagine) and then signing someone like Wells?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depends on what else they can get for an injured Schmidt who posted 4.40 ERA in the AAA division of MLB this year. Wells may be attractive because he's a "big game" guy who's been around the block but only has 1 yr left on his deal. Schmidt doesn't have a no-trade, does he? If not he'd be in no position to ask for an extension if traded.

Of course the whole idea collapses if they actually have decided to keep Schmidt and see how he rebounds this year. Which I think would be reasonable, $10m is a lot but he used to be really good too.

All that said, I think the Sox will have to be very creative to get good value on Wells.

[MainerInExile]

I can't see us getting more than a mediocre prospect or a salary dump, honestly. The guy is old.

[Comfortably Lomb]

Why? Is Otsuka that much better than Linebrink?
Linebrink
Otsuka

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A. We're not getting either.
B. I would prefer Linebrink to Otsuka.

[SoxFanSince57]

And to be totally fair abbout this... he signed with a worse ownership, a worse GM, a worse manager, and what was a worse team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally, if I were Manny I really couldn't imagine a worse FO or ownership group. He has at least 5 or 6 knives in his back since they showed up. He signed with a GM who wanted him and a FO that was willing to pay him what he wanted. Don't even go to the place where Manny is better off with this FO. This situation sucks for Manny.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 21 October 2005 - 11:23 AM.

[thisyearisthe]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox get Schmidt though. Dump Wells for whatever they can get and then just sign Schmidt to a one or two year incentive deal.

I have to figure no one is going to throw a fat three year contract at Schmidt after his 2005 season coming off injury. He seems like a perfect candidate for Theo's mix and match rotation philosophy.

I wonder if Theo will re-sign Mantei..

[Paul M]

Maybe take a chance on Sean Burroughs again, who could be Youk insurance and Burroughs could be asked to learn 2B and 1B and be a utility guy?

I think San Diego is where he'll end up, and in addition to Burroughs, maybe look at what 4th OF they have since we need one of those as well.

Wells was a good risk and other than a few really bad outings, he was a decent #3 starter. If we had Curt or Foulke, we'd probably think a lot differently about all of the decisions made.

[Pandemonium67]

Why would anyone want Wells to go unless the Sox pick up another starter who will be as good or better next year?

Right now, that fat 43-year-old has as much a chance as anyone to be the Sox best starter. Who would you rather see start a playoff game?

Not to mention he's the only lefty.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

Not to mention he's the only lefty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And no team has won a World Series without a lefty starter since ... the 2004 Red Sox.

[Route101]

I dunno, at his press conference upon signing here he mentioned how the Red Sox blew other teams out of the water with their offer. I think he came here for a few million reasons, and while that's fair, I have a problem with him now wanting out. He wants the most money and the location he wants; he should have thought about the location when he signed here (or vice versa).
It's the same with Manny- he came here because the Sox had the best offer, and has annually made waves about wanting out.
[...]
Maybe Wells and Manny will just forefeit their contracts to go to places they want to be. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Arrgggh. This is no different than AFraud wanting out of Seattle, then out of Texas...WITH all his money intact. I think the CBA should be revised enough to allow contracts to be downsized at the player's request if he decides he doesn't want to be with the club who paid big bucks to sign him as a free agent.

These guys are greedy pigs, who compare poorly to guys who negotiate a middle-of-the-road sometimes short-term contract to stay in a place they really like, or a place close to home.

[The Gray Eagle]

And no team has won a World Series without a lefty starter since ... the 2004 Red Sox.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Abe Alvarez started a game for the 2004 Red Sox.

[KBarbz50]

Actually, because he's a pitcher and he had a good stretch run (but for 1/3 of an inning his lone playoff start was a gem as well) you could see the possibilities however it's important to keep in mind that any team will likely have the guy for just a year:

Payton for Wells

Glaus for Wells and a 'spect

SD reliever(s) for Wells

Roberts for Wells

Are the Dodgers read y to give up on Hee-Seop Choi?  Wells and a 'spect?

And my pipedream, Helton + 1/3 of his contract for Wells and a 'spect

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would anyone be willing to trade a prospect for a 43 year old over-the-hill pitcher?

[thisyearisthe]

I want Wells to go because I hate going into a season with "definite uncertainties". The prospect of Wells staying healthy in 2006 AND being as good as 2005, let alone better, is a very high uncertainty.

I would rather say good-bye to Wells and upgrade the rotation. And if Theo is as good as I think he is, he will find a way to upgrade the rotation. Theo has to know that Schilling (himself an uncertainty going into 2006), Papelbon, Wake, Clement, and Arroyo do not comprise a likely world championship rotation. Sure, it could happen, but looking at the two teams that rose to the top this year it would have to seem unlikely. I just can't get over how good the starting pitching is for these two teams.

I like Schilling and Papelbon at the top, but I would love a top flight guy to slide in between. I would take Zito, and probably I would gamble on Schmidt. Likewise, I would gamble on Colon. There needs to be one more ace on this staff. Someone like, I don't know, Pedro Martinez?

Maybe if you're the Sox, you roll the dice next year, see how far the bats can carry you, and hope that Lester and Sanchez fill out the rotation in 2007. Papelbon, Lester, Sanchez and Clement could be a great rotation in '07. Who knows at this point? All I know is the current pitching roster makes me uncomfortable.

[jtn46]

Why would anyone be willing to trade a prospect for a 43 year old over-the-hill pitcher?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only thing wrong with Wells is that he's old. He's a good pitcher, he throws a lot of innings, and on top of that, he has a sweet contract that requires a team to only pay him a lot if he stays healthy and pitches well. That said, no one suggested we get a prospect back, people are mostly making pretty reasonable suggestions suggesting relievers or older players.

When Payton asked for a trade, the attitude regarding him was that he had almost zero value. Then he got traded, hit a bunch of homeruns (despite being basically the same player offensively) and people wanted Theo's head for only getting Bradford back, or for trading him at all. I think Wells has a good amount of value, there aren't a ton of good starting pitchers that are going to be available, and while Wells isn't going to carry a franchise for the next 5 years, at this point I think teams will keep signing him to short deals until he either retires or actually pitches like he's over-the-hill.

[happybooker99]

think the message is- be skeptical of players who are only on your team because you are offering them the most.

What's to be skeptical of?

Did Wells perform this year? Yup. Arguably the best pitcher on staff. Did he earn his salary? Yup (with the normal allowances for 'can any professional athlete earn a salary of that size?).

He did what he was supposed to do this year, and more than many expected. To me, the performance based nature of his contract is a looser bond than the typical baseball guaranteed contract. I see nothing wrong, or even unusual, in a request for a trade at this point.

[KBarbz50]

The only thing wrong with Wells is that he's old.  He's a good pitcher, he throws a lot of innings, and on top of that, he has a sweet contract that requires a team to only pay him a lot if he stays healthy and pitches well.  That said, no one suggested we get a prospect back, people are mostly making pretty reasonable suggestions suggesting relievers or older players.

When Payton asked for a trade, the attitude regarding him was that he had almost zero value.  Then he got traded, hit a bunch of homeruns (despite being basically the same player offensively) and people wanted Theo's head for only getting Bradford back, or for trading him at all.  I think Wells has a good amount of value, there aren't a ton of good starting pitchers that are going to be available, and while Wells isn't going to carry a franchise for the next 5 years, at this point I think teams will keep signing him to short deals until he either retires or actually pitches like he's over-the-hill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree. A lot of people in here have mentioned getting a prospect or prospects in return.

[5belongstoGeorge]

I am disappointed. Wells came up very big both by winning some critical games and sticking late into games several times when the pen was particularly crappy.

If he has to go, send him somewhere so he can't beat tha Sox. I hope he reconsiders staying after some offseason moves cement theteam as favorite/contender for post season next year.

[Steve Dillard]

I am disappointed. Wells came up very big both by winning some critical games and sticking late into games several times when the pen was particularly crappy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, if by that you mean losing a 3-1 lead vs. the Yankees in the early September series with the Pennant at stake, going only 5.2, 9 hits, 6 runs while losing to Small.

Or his 2.2 inning 10 hit gem vs. Tampa a week later once the Yankees were back in the pennant chase because of item #1, above?

[hytem]

Possible blessing in disguise here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "blessing in disguise" is that Wells creates a salary opening
for another starter, like Burnett.
That's why they will let him go for a prospect--or maybe a cheap 4th outfielder.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes, if by that you mean losing a 3-1 lead vs. the Yankees in the early September series with the Pennant at stake, going only 5.2, 9 hits, 6 runs while losing to Small.

Or his 2.2 inning 10 hit gem vs. Tampa a week later once the Yankees were back in the pennant chase because of item #1, above?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or the September 30 start when he beat the Yankees in the most crucial series of the season. Pennant was still at stake then.

I'm amazed at the vitriol.

Edited by Smiling Joe Hesketh, 21 October 2005 - 02:25 PM.

[5belongstoGeorge]

Wells did well


I know wins and losses are a poor representation of a pitcher's effectiveness, go to the above link for game logs for more info.

David Wells:
Oct.
Pitched well enough to win the first playoff game.
Sep.
4-1 (1ND)
Aug.
2-1 (2ND)
July
3-1 (2ND)
June
3-0 (2ND)
May
1-1 (1ND)
April
2-3

edit:
had it wrong at first

Edited by 5belongstoGeorge, 21 October 2005 - 02:47 PM.

[xjack]

How about Wells to LAD for JD Drew and $$?

[kartvelo]

Good riddance, I say. The last thing this team needs is a competent ML LH starting pitcher on its staff.

Really, though, if he wants out I guess it's fine to do what you can for him. Other players (that is, potential future RS) might look favorably on the Sox FO's apparent willingness to help players find what they're looking for instead of just telling them "shut up and play out the remainder of your contract."

As long as the FO doesn't come to be looked upon as a room full of suckers waiting to be played.

The question is, as has already been said, is it at all possible that they can get decent value for him to offset the loss of, yes, a competent ML LH starter from a staff that trailed the league this year and would have been worse without him? I can't see where the arms are going to come from unless, as some have suggested, it's time to hope the kids can step in.

[trekfan55]

This all comes back to Schilling. If Schilling was healthy in 2005, combined with Wells, Wakefield, that's a good 1-2-3 top of the rotation right there. Add Arroyo and Clement who had some good stetches and we are easily looking at 5-8 more wins and maybe, just maybe, we are still starting game threads right now.

Wells did his part. He wasn't hired to be the ace, but he did perform very well and had excellent control as usual. He also pitched extremely well in that Game 2 against the White Sox.

Oh, well...

What does puzzle me is that after one year he is requesting a trade. I think, more than the fact that he may dislike Boston or the fact that he onl signed for the money and now wants to go to the WC, he knows something we don't. Maybe he sees the 2006 Sox team as a rebuilding project and he wants to go to a contender or, since he may be stuck in a rebuilding team, might as well do so in the West Coast (San Diego, LA, LAA).

One final note: He was on record as hating Fenway Park and volunteering to push the button to taer it down, yet he did extremely well there this year.

[Steve Dillard]

Wells did his part.  He wasn't hired to be the ace, but he did perform very well and had excellent control as usual.  He also pitched extremely well in that Game 2 against the White Sox.

I guess the $9 million he earned no longer qualify as being an "ace"?

We actually got more bang for the buck for Clement and his $6.5 million.

Edited by Steve Dillard, 21 October 2005 - 03:22 PM.

[Snowplow]

It shouldnt be suprising that Wells wants out....He did a good job....but he never showed respect for Tito or the Red sox....i was always waiting for him to slam Tito to the ground whenever he pulled him.....9 Mil just seemed like a lot for a 43 year old average starter that dropped the ball big time when his team needed him most...chi town.
You could always tell he was unhappy and out of place....I say good rid....and bring in someone who wants to play here....D-Lowe....maybe Byrd...

[Rudy Pemberton]

Hey, how about Wells and Manny for Pedro and Beltran?

[Snowplow]

manny,wells and nixon for beltran,Lastings mil...and wright

[Chemistry Schmemistry]

Does Wells have the right to demand a trade?

Given his age and salary, how is Theo going to get much value here? Nowadays, the length of a contract serves the same purpose as a bonus does in football.

Unless there's reason to believe Wells is not going to perform next year, I don't see why any trade request needs to be honored. Wells has an ego, I'm sure he's not going to cut off his nose despite his face, thinking there's still an outside chance he could build an HOF case.

[trekfan55]

I guess the $9 million he earned no longer qualify as being an "ace"?

We actually got more bang for the buck for Clement and his $6.5 million.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was overpaid? Maybe. But his contract was as much based on performance as the CBA/MLB will allow, so he earned his money, such as it was. But reagrdless of what we think about salaries, I am sure that no one in the FO really thought that Wells would be the team ace upon signing him.

Edited by trekfan55, 21 October 2005 - 03:40 PM.

[xjack]

I just hope the Sox get the Theo situation resolved ASAP, because this is going to be a very busy offseason for the Sox and they can't afford to spend November searching for a GM. That was true before Wells requested a trade and even more so now.

[NYCSox]

manny,wells and nixon for beltran,Lastings mil...and wright

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.