[gyroballerkyle]

Smiling Joe Hesketh, on Jan 9 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

Kyle, would it be possible to post some pictures of the grip on the basball for the gyro? I think in this case showing folks how one grips it may be a lot clearer than trying to describe it.

Also, what is the difference between throwing a gyroball and the more ordinary slider? Folks over at BTF are saying it sounds like the same grip and the same arm action.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might be able to post the grip of the gyroball if I feel confident that I am throwing it perfectly. As it is, the pitch is not perfected by me or anyone I am aware of in the United States, and as such, I don't want to spread misinformation. This is Will Carroll's big sticking point as well - he agreed to teach me the pitch if I did not sell the information or disseminate false information about the pitch. As a result, I probably will not disclose the pitch grips or a write a tutorial on how to throw it until I feel I am completely comfortable with the pitch. I hope you all understand - I don't want kids and other people throwing what they believe to be a "gyroball" when indeed the arm action is much different than they think, and could end up injuring arms. Neither Will nor I want to be responsible for such problems. That said, I would have no problem showing someone in Seattle how to do it with the same agreed-upon clauses.

The grip of the slider and the gyroball sound exactly the same - I will admit this. However, they are very different. The slider is held with the index/ring fingers across the top of the ball, and the fingers are held on the side of the ball on the gyroball. Think: Pull down across the seams to impart bullet-spin.

[gyroballerkyle]

smackdown924, on Jan 9 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

This is most interesting indeed.  If a pitcher became a master of the Gyro, he could throw the same pitch and get 4 different results.... puzzling for a batter.  Could you please go into more detail about the 4 different types of gyroballs, the differences in wrist and arm action, and what exactly are the "wildly different results" of each variant?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, this is entirely possible. It is theoretically possible to survive on a fastball and variants of a gyroball, with a changeup thrown in there as well for good measure.

The different arm actions and tilts to the ball produce down/away movement (as you all have no doubt seen in Matsuzaka's videos), or true sinker/downwards drop to the pitch (also seen in a Matsuzaka video). I have seen it thrown with curve-like tendencies, and there is someone in the states trying to throw it across four seams, rather than two.

[BosoxBob]

Regarding types of gyroballs, you can think about two different variations using the football analogy. Consider the case where a quarterback is throwing a quick slant to his tight end across the middle. He will fire the football straight at his man, snapping his hand down to impart the typical spiral. This is the same basic motion as for a regular gyroball. Now consider the case where the quarterback is throwing a bomb to his wide receiver. While he still throws a spiral, the football leaves his hand at an upward angle, say in the 15-45 degree range. This is comparable to what is referred to as a gyroball with side force. This ball is supposed to drop less than a regular gyroball, but break to the left away from a righthanded hitter. An variation of this is if the pitcher holds the ball longer, such that the spin axis points down instead of up, which is supposed to cause a break to the right. A fourth kind, a gyroball with lift force, is thrown straight toward the plate, but with the hand more behind the ball than on the side, resulting in the spin axis pointing away from the plate toward the 3rd base side. In this case, the ball "rises" as compared to the drop on a regular gyroball. In addition to the different ways to release the ball, these pitches can be thrown in 2-seam or 4-seam versions, which will affect the amount of break/drop. To get an idea of what these pitches do, check out this picture taken from one of the original researcher's videos:

Shown are the end location of four pitches thrown from the same arm slot. The red dot is a fastball, the blue dot is a forkball, the white dot is a regular gyro, and the green dot is a gyro with side force. A gyro with lift force would end up somewhere between the red and white dots.

I wanted to post some links to relevant articles that I have been collecting (for those who are interested). This paper written by a physics professor at the University of Illinois contains a detailed discussion of what I've covered above. This site (Google translation from Japanese) has a slide presentation of the findings by the original researchers (Himeno/Tezuka), with this page having a series of videos presumably part of that presentation.

I also wanted to post this - a graphic purportedly depicting the throwing motion and break for a gyroball. I believe that this, along with many articles written on the subject, are incorrect. It shows the pitch being thrown with the wrist snapping over the top of the ball (similar to a screwball), imparting a clockwise spin. This disagrees with much of what I have read which indicates that the wrist goes straight down, producing a counterclockwise spin. Also, the graphic says that the pitch will break sharply to the left, which differs from what I described above. Perhaps Kyle can set the record straight here.

Based on these and other articles I have read, here's what I believe the main advantages of throwing the gyro are:

• For a regular gyro, the ball drops similarly to a forkball or split-finger fastball, but at a speed closer to a regular fastball.
  
• A slight change in grip and wrist action allows the pitcher to reduce the drop or impart sideways motion. This would allow the pitcher to overcome a batter who has learned to recognize the gyro from the different pitching motion, as the different variations probably look almost the same.
  
• The claim by the researchers that proper double-spin throwing mechanics results in less stress on a pitcher's body.

[gyroballerkyle]

BosoxBob, on Jan 9 2007, 02:05 PM, said:

I also wanted to post this - a graphic purportedly depicting the throwing motion and break for a gyroball. I believe that this, along with many articles written on the subject, are incorrect. It shows the pitch being thrown with the wrist snapping over the top of the ball (similar to a screwball), imparting a clockwise spin. This disagrees with much of what I have read which indicates that the wrist goes straight down, producing a counterclockwise spin. Also, the graphic says that the pitch will break sharply to the left, which differs from what I described above. Perhaps Kyle can set the record straight here.

Based on these and other articles I have read, here's what I believe the main advantages of throwing the gyro are:

• For a regular gyro, the ball drops similarly to a forkball or split-finger fastball, but at a speed closer to a regular fastball.
  
  
• A slight change in grip and wrist action allows the pitcher to reduce the drop or impart sideways motion. This would allow the pitcher to overcome a batter who has learned to recognize the gyro from the different pitching motion, as the different variations probably look almost the same.
  
  
• The claim by the researchers that proper double-spin throwing mechanics results in less stress on a pitcher's body.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The wrist does not snap over the ball like a screwball/slider, that is for sure. This was the original thought of what the gyroball was - but in reality, this is more like the Japanese shuuto (best American translation: Slurve).

Again, think of throwing a football - you pull the fingers down unconsciously to impart spiral spin, producing rifle-like motion on the ball. Throw the pitch, pull down across a seam, impart bullet-spin - think of your hand like the chamber of a gun. Your wrist naturally pronates as you pull down, which is very important to finishing most pitches.

Your advantages list are right on. What I have posted doesn't even scratch the surface of the Miracle Ball / Demon Pitch book - there are tons of images and diagrams showing the benefits of double-spin mechanics, many of which I am trying to incorporate in my own delivery. Spinning the back leg to then lead the hips is one such motion that is highly touted in the book.

[gyroballerkyle]

Frisbetarian, on Jan 9 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

Welcome aboard, Kyle. Great stuff.

Did you throw a slider before you learned this pitch? If so, could you please elaborate on the differences between the pitches. What you describe above sounds very much like the way I was taught to throw a slider way back in the dark ages. Also, what speed is your gyroball thrown, i.e., is it faster than your curve, two seam fastball, etc.? Where would you rank it among pitches in terms of speed? Finally, have you seen any evidence that Matsuzaka throws this pitch?

Yo la tengo,
Fris
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did throw a slider before this pitch. In high school and college, my pitches were fastball, circle change, splitter, and cutter. Eventually I learned to throw a slider and a curve ball with relatively decent movement.

The gyroball comes in at about the same speed as my changeup.

And yes, there is overwhelming evidence that proves that Matsuzaka throws this pitch. When he said "I don't throw this pitch," he really meant that he does not throw it with any regularity, nor is it a typical pitch of his. It's like David Cone.

[gyroballerkyle]

Also: Anyone watching my videos on YouTube, please note that my mechanics are garbage and need a ton of improvement. My newest video should be going up soon that corrects a lot of the loading problems.

Again, I'm re-learning how to pitch after shoulder trouble and many years out of baseball. I don't profess to be perfect, or even moderately good.

[smackdown924]

gyroballerkyle, on Jan 9 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Also: Anyone watching my videos on YouTube, please note that my mechanics are garbage and need a ton of improvement. My newest video should be going up soon that corrects a lot of the loading problems.

Again, I'm re-learning how to pitch after shoulder trouble and many years out of baseball. I don't profess to be perfect, or even moderately good.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It actually looks better than I first anticipated. The movement on the pitches is good. Your enthusiasm and dedication shows. I can't wait to see more videos!

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4m8w3LcmwU"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4m8w3LcmwU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

The pitch list is as follows:

Side view:
1) Fastball: Four-Seam
2) Slider
3) Fastball: Four-Seam

Rear View:
1) Fastball: Four-Seam
2) Split Change
3) Slider
4) Gyroball-Sinker

Catcher View:
1) Fastball: Two-Seam
2) Slider
3) Curve
4) Gyroball-Curve
5) Fastball

This post has been edited by smackdown924: 09 January 2007 - 05:26 PM

[smackdown924]

Kyle, have you examined any footage of Joey Niezer, or spoken about him with Will? The Gyroball I have heard about most from Will Carroll is the type that starts off moving toward a right handed batter, then breaks late back over the plate. That seems to be the same type of Gyro movement that Joey Niezer shows in this footage:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OE4R8rYkUWE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OE4R8rYkUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

It also seems to be the same type of movement you showed in your "Gyro-Curve" Variant. Is there also a type that moves in toward a righty, as well as a version that sinks strait down? This would be a devastating combo that could be used against righties or lefties....

[gyroballerkyle]

smackdown924, on Jan 9 2007, 02:25 PM, said:

Kyle, have you examined any footage of Joey Niezer, or spoken about him with Will? The Gyroball I have heard about most from Will Carroll is the type that starts off moving toward a right handed batter, then breaks late back over the plate.  That seems to be the same type of Gyro movement that Joey Niezer shows in this footage:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OE4R8rYkUWE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OE4R8rYkUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

It also seems to be the same type of movement you showed in your "Gyro-Curve" Variant.  Is there also a type that moves in toward a righty, as well as a version that sinks strait down?  This would be a devastating combo that could be used against righties or lefties....
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joey Niezer no longer speaks to Will Carroll, and denies ever throwing a gyroball or knowing Will Carroll at times. It's a feud that I don't know much about; I suspect it has to do with the media pressure Joey got while being scouted in high school.

I highly doubt I'll have that problem.

[gyroballerkyle]

smackdown924, on Jan 9 2007, 02:17 PM, said:

It actually looks better than I first anticipated.  The movement on the pitches is good.  Your enthusiasm and dedication shows.  I can't wait to see more videos!

Thank you! I am uploading a new video of a single side force gyroball (my go-to gyroball pitch). As soon as it's done encoding on YouTube, I'll share it. I also tinkered with some of my mechanics, hoping to cantilever over my back leg more, so I'll upload that one too.

Going to hit the shower now since I smell like a bed of roses. Or not.

[gyroballerkyle]

gyroballerkyle, on Jan 9 2007, 02:32 PM, said:

Thank you! I am uploading a new video of a single side force gyroball (my go-to gyroball pitch). As soon as it's done encoding on YouTube, I'll share it. I also tinkered with some of my mechanics, hoping to cantilever over my back leg more, so I'll upload that one too.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first video is the side force gyro; the second is just two pitches from the side of me attempting to cantilever over the back leg to build more force. It seemed to work; my velocity was improved today.

EDIT: Changed them to URL's. How do you embed here?

This post has been edited by URISoxFan: 09 January 2007 - 07:37 PM

[CaptainLaddie]

[ video] and [/ video] I believe.

[smackdown924]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kNRhCzUffM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kNRhCzUffM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I like the side motion. I think that is the one Will talked about when he mentioned Joey once throwing a pitch that started so far behind a RHB that he ducked forward to avoid being hit, only to have the pitch break back over the inside corner, forcing the batter to lean back.

(to embed a video from youtube just go to youtube and get the "embed" info, then paste it here, and below the box where you type your message there is a drop-down box that says "HTML OFF" you need to go down to "HTML ON" I go with auto line break, but it works either way.)

[URI]

smackdown924, on Jan 9 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

(to embed a video from youtube just go to youtube and get the "embed" info, then paste it here, and below the box where you type your message there is a drop-down box that says "HTML OFF" you need to go down to "HTML ON" I go with auto line break, but it works either way.)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or you can take the you tube code (the thing after the = sign), and put the [ youtube] [/youtube ] code around it.

[gyroballerkyle]

smackdown924, on Jan 9 2007, 04:26 PM, said:

I like the side motion.  I think that is the one Will talked about when he mentioned Joey once throwing a pitch that started so far behind a RHB that he ducked forward to avoid being hit, only to have the pitch break back over the inside corner, forcing the batter to lean back. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you! I could start the pitch behind the batter and throw it across the plate, but I prefer to use it as an out pitch and get them to chase it.

[gyroballerkyle]

I finally got around to reading the BTF link, and while I'm honored to be on Baseball Primer, I highly doubt I will engage in the mudslinging over there. It's clear that they don't want to hear about the pitch or believe it even exists, so it's not worth expending my time.

I'll drop a line over there saying as much. So, anyone from BTF who happens to be reading this, you can email me any specific questions at kyle dot boddy at gmail dot come and I'd be glad to answer them. However, I'm not doing it in a public forum where the masses don't want to hear what I have to say.

[86spike]

Kyle - thanks for sharing this stuff. I think you'll find a lot of interest in your progress and what you learn here.

And if a guy with the screen name gehrig38 has anything to add to the thread (which he might), his name is Curt and he knows a thing or two about throwign a baseball.

[twothousandone]

This is fun reading. Once upon a time, didn't the world believe a curve didn't really curve? The split-fingered fastball is an "invention" of the last 30 years, right? Unless Roger Craig was actually throwing it in Brooklyn, when not working on his pisk-off move.

If/when one can gain some real cosistency with this, does it produce generaly less shoulder/elbow stress? Kyle, seems like you hurt your arm, but have gotten back o the mound. Is that sort of a Jim Morris thing that your arm just healed, or is the throwing motion so different that previuos troubles are just not a factor?

Is this something like a knuckleball, where those who can master can pitch way longer than the norm, or is that still TBD?

[BosoxBob]

FYI - I just ran across this recent story about the gyroball, and it talks about Kyle and about Carroll teaching him the pitch.

[sheamonu]

Great stuff - to me it sounds and looks like an out pitch that a pitcher might go to 5-6 times a game to meet a specific situation. Because it looks like the amount of arm extension you can get on the pitch is limited, throwing it more often than that might lead to tipping the hitter. Wakefield might actually want to look in to messing around with this - a hitter trying to stay back on a knuckleball could really have a tough time laying off this kind of a pitch and it doesn't seem that you need throw the ball with huge velocity to get a sharp, late break.

This post has been edited by sheamonu: 10 January 2007 - 02:25 PM