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All about the gyroball - inside.


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#1 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 04:03 AM

Hello, everyone. I was introduced to this board from a friend on here, named "captainladdie." Of course, I had heard of the Red Sox SoSH board from various sources, not the least of which is havebatwilltravel.com.

Allow me to introduce myself: My name is Kyle Boddy, and I love baseball. I'm 23 years old, an aspiring amateur pitcher (ex-HS/College player), living in Seattle, self-employed, and I'm not really a Red Sox fan (I know, I know). I'm an A's/Indians fan, for the most part. I run the website baseballdelusions.com, which is currently being redesigned and will contain videos, pictures, blogs, and other information about amateur players looking to get a second shot at baseball and having fun.

I pitched in high school and college, but after shoulder troubles, I moved to second base and became a converted position player. I worked very hard at it, became a relatively good hitter with plus power and good walk rates, though my speed was always a factor. In the end, I finished up at a small D-III school, had a lot of fun, and eventually called it quits. I moved out to Seattle to start a business and rediscovered the love of baseball after agreeing to coach a Little League Juniors (age 13-14) team, and gave it a second shot at a local league here called the Puget Sound Senior Baseball League (PSSBL). While there, I played second base and got a shot at pitching, where I basically embarassed myself in my one stint (2 IP, 3 BB, 1 HB, 2 K, 0 H, 1 ER, SV), but had a lot of fun.

I entered the off-season on a strict training and diet regimen and have added significant lean mass to my frame and took pitching and hitting lessons from Jeff Petersen (Fresno Grizzlies) and Justin Drake (ex-UWash OF), respectively, at their training gym called Strike-Zone.

To say that my mechanics need improvement is an understatement, but I'm ridiculously dedicated and I'm giving my all to study and understand both the physical and mental sides of baseball. My lofty goals are to play at the semi-pro level, and one day become the AGM of a baseball team.

So, what does any of that have to do with the gyroball? Good question! As a faithful reader of Baseball Prospectus, I realized that Will Carroll had been posting quite a bit about kids he had trained to throw the gyroball. On a whim, I emailed him and asked if he could train me. After some discussion and negotiation, I ended up flying out to Indianapolis to meet him and talk shop and eventually learn how to throw the gyroball. Will's a great guy, and we talked about the idiocy of the Mariners' FO (the Vidro deal was new at the time), the Cubs, and other hilariously bad teams. He showed me how to throw the gyroball and corrected a few of many of my mechanical flaws, and I flew home to Seattle.

Let me start off by saying this: At the end of the day, the gyroball isn’t just another type of pitch. Technically, it is an off-speed pitch that can be effectively used to complement a pitcher’s pre-existing arsenal; however, the gyroball is not a singular pitch. In fact, the gyroball is (at least) four different pitches that we know about. It is a concept; one that requires different mechanics altogether.

Unlike the different “styles” of the changeup, the separate variations of the gyroball have wildly different results. The different types of changeups all have the same goal – to change speeds and to disrupt the timing of the hitter using the same arm action as the fastball. Each variation of the gyroball uses the same grip and a similar arm action, but the alignment of the baseball changes in each scenario – all of them for different situations.

Will also showed me the book of the gyroball, literally translated to mean "Original Form of the Demon Ball." It looks like this:

Posted Image

The book reads more like a college-level physics text than it does a baseball primer book, and translations are spotty at best. However, the concepts of the book are clear – the book was written to help explain the concept of “double-spin” mechanics, where the pitcher seeks to maximize efficiency through the firing of the hips and back leg in tandem with the arm action for all pitches. Various graphs and charts describe the “sneaky fast” release point theory, which explains the correlation between reaction time allotted to the batter and what the perceived speed is (regardless of actual radar gun speed).

Unfortunately, changing kanji characters over to English text is not as simple as plugging in the literal words that the characters represent. Unlike most European languages, which often port over to English with 95%+ efficiency, Asian languages rely heavily on context, culture, and a different thought process than the dominant one in Western civilization. Simply handing the book over to a translator who knows little about advanced physics and baseball won't do me any good – the output would simply cease to make sense.

“That’s nice, but what does it do and how do I throw it?”

While I can’t explain the concept of Magnus forces on a baseball to the layperson (largely stemming from the fact that I don’t understand them fully myself), I can describe the action of the gyroball as it is commonly thrown. As with all pitches, getting the release point out in front and a smooth transfer of weight with late shoulder rotation is necessary for optimal results.

The basic grip for the gyroball is held like a football with the ball between the ear and the hand and the index and middle fingers touching a seam where they are closest together on the baseball (think: two-seam fastball, at the seams – not across the seams). The thumb is positioned directly under the baseball. The gyroball is typically thrown from the same arm slot as any other pitch. After reading these sentences, you may be envisioning a slider grip, but it’s not. The hardest part of envisioning the gyroball grip without seeing it is the ability to grasp the concept of holding a baseball like a football.

When you deliver the pitch, all the motions should be the same as a normal pitch is thrown. However, when you are bringing the arm up to speed, the wrist never breaks at the release point. After throwing the pitch, your wrist will naturally pronate, just like a circle changeup. If this is all you did when throwing the gyroball, it would be an effective off-speed pitch with similar actions to a knuckleball. However, the real “magic” of the gyroball comes when you are at the release point with your wrist locked. As you are about to release the ball and your thumb comes off the ball, pull down with your index and middle fingers, imparting true gyroscopic spin on the ball. Again, remember the analogy to throwing a football – when you throw a football, you pull down with your fingers across the laces to impart spiral spin.

As the gyroball is thrown as described above, there will be no top, bottom, or side spin – the only spin will be gyroscopic in nature. Imagine that you put a dot in the middle of the baseball where the pitcher releases the ball. This dot will remain visible to you throughout the entire pitch!

The end result of this basic gyroball is a sharp, late drop in the strike zone, not unlike a very good sinker. The spin will not be recognizable to most hitters, since no other pitch is thrown with gyroscopic force.

Variations on a Theme: Gyroball Edition

As stated before, the gyroball can be thrown with multiple variations. There are at least four variations that are known using the standard gyroball grip (the two-seam variant), but experiments are being conducted by Americans on throwing it with a four-seam grip, amongst other changes.

The four known variations of the pitch involve tilting the hand inwards/outwards or angling it down/up with slight changes in arm action for all of the pitches. By slightly changing the arm action and the tilt of the baseball, it is possible to impart slight side or top spin in combination with gyroscopic forces. In doing so, strangely different results occur, including pitches that have what seem to be unnatural late sideways movement.

Again, little is known about the pitch due to the translation issues, but work is being done to complete the entire field of research of double-spin mechanics, not just the product which happens to be the gyroball.

After spending two days of pitching lessons and throwing well over 120 pitches from the mound and flat ground with my coach, I am extremely excited to continue the work on better understanding the gyroball and double-spin mechanics as a whole. It is obvious that despite all the brilliant minds flocking to baseball, we have yet to see a good explanation for many Japanese baseball concepts. It is this disconnect that leads me to believe that we will see extremely interesting developments as the MLB and the NPB continue to share players and coaches through the posting system, but that such developments will involve thousands, if not tens of thousands of translating and understanding Japanese concepts in general.

It is my opinion that the United States’ perceived dominance of baseball is no different than the previous domination the US clearly held in another sport 20 years ago – basketball. No one believed that a foreign team could stand up to the NBA’s best American players, but that idea has been firmly defeated in recent years. In fact, disparity in baseball is rapidly closing as we speak – the Japanese team won the World Baseball Classic, despite complaints by many that the WBC was largely set-up in favor of the United States with regard to pitching rules (limiting pitch counts for all teams and potentially allowing the dominating relievers of the United States to take over games).

Hearing comments such as “Japanese pitchers don’t throw nearly as hard as American pitchers,” “The level of play in Japan is equivalent to Triple-A in the United States,” or “Let’s see how Japanese pitchers deal with real talent in the MLB,” all remind me of the days of the NBA Dream Team, where the arrogance of the United States was swiftly crushed not two decades later. It is foolish to believe that we know everything there is to know about baseball, that raw velocity is king, and that no other country will catch up to us in the future. You need only look at the nation that won the true world championship of baseball tournament to see that the balance of power is shifting.

If you have any questions about the gyroball, or comments otherwise, I'd be more than willing to answer them. Fire away, and thanks for having me!

#2 leeharris

  • 103 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 06:42 AM

Have you checked out "The Physics of Baseball" book (I'm sure you have). I know "The Physics of Golf" by Ted Jorgensen had some very clear explanations of the Magnus force on golf balls, it's not at all as complex as you might fear. Another basic reference is "The Mathematics of Projectiles in Sport". If I get a bit of time I'll flick through these again and pick out some useful diagrams and notes.

#3 smackdown924

  • 283 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 08:16 AM

Welcome aboard, we sure are glad to have you. Keep us updated as to how the development of the pitch is going, and tell us how it goes if/when you use it in your baseball league! I am amazed that you got to meet Will and learn the Gyro, that really is awesome. Thanks for all that info, I can't wait to see your site w/ videos (of the gyro?).

I was fascinated by and agreed with everything you said, except the last part where you inclined that Japanese baseball is already on par with MLB because they won the WBC. Please, the best MLB players from the US weren't even on that team, not to mention that many of the best MLB players aren't FROM the US (Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Venezuela). I completely agree with you however that Japanese NPB is growing and evolving, and is rapidly advancing in terms of quality and skill toward MLB.

Could you go into more detail about the "various differences" between the different TYPES of Gyroball? I hadn't heard of them, I only thought there was 1 Gyro, and that the confusion was between people who thought it broke in on a righty and people (like Will) who claimed it broke away from righties.

#4 DJnVa


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Posted 09 January 2007 - 08:39 AM

But, but, but...the YouTube Scouting Service said...

Seriously though, have you had a chance to throw it to actual hitters yet? Either in a batting practice type of setting or otherwise?

Has there been any discussion on how quick hitters can adjust to this type of pitch, never having seen it before? It's been a while since a truly "new" pitch has been seen over here.

#5 exGloucester

  • 1,155 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 09:47 AM

Thanks for the great post, especially the bit about the football grip - that helps a lot. You noted that hitters will have a hard time recognizing a gyro pitch coming at them because they havent seen it before, but to me it would seem that the odd rotation might make it easier to pick up. Any thoughts on that from the experience of the Japanese players?

#6 Ted Cox 4 president

  • 696 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 09:53 AM

This makes for very interesting reading. Thanks for taking the time to write in such detail. I wonder how MLB pitching coaches, in general, are going to react, and I wonder whether the change of guard for the RS was in anticipation of these types of new and different techniques coming on to the scene.

#7 Smiling Joe Hesketh


  • now batting steve sal hiney. the leftfielder, hiney


  • 23,326 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 11:50 AM

BTF now has a discussion thread about this post.

One interesting note already: one poster says that the book on the gyroball translates to "The Truth of the Magic Pitch."

#8 Old Fart Tree

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 12:10 PM

Awesome stuff, Kyle. Thanks!

#9 Frisbetarian


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Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:49 PM

The basic grip for the gyroball is held like a football with the ball between the ear and the hand and the index and middle fingers touching a seam where they are closest together on the baseball (think: two-seam fastball, at the seams – not across the seams). The thumb is positioned directly under the baseball. The gyroball is typically thrown from the same arm slot as any other pitch. After reading these sentences, you may be envisioning a slider grip, but it’s not. The hardest part of envisioning the gyroball grip without seeing it is the ability to grasp the concept of holding a baseball like a football.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Welcome aboard, Kyle. Great stuff.

Did you throw a slider before you learned this pitch? If so, could you please elaborate on the differences between the pitches. What you describe above sounds very much like the way I was taught to throw a slider way back in the dark ages. Also, what speed is your gyroball thrown, i.e., is it faster than your curve, two seam fastball, etc.? Where would you rank it among pitches in terms of speed? Finally, have you seen any evidence that Matsuzaka throws this pitch?

Yo la tengo,
Fris

#10 dcb46

  • 518 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:57 PM

Very interesting... perhaps you or someone else can clarify something that has been nagging at me. Virtually every discussion I have seen of the gyroball emphasizes that what is being sought is a "football spin," with the axis pointed horizontally toward home plate. But if you research what is being sought with the slider, the same football analogy comes up over and over. The tighter the football spin, the nastier the slider. See for example

http://www.webball.c...ms/page1999.cfm

I read somewhere that Steve Carlton's slider was so tight that the seams appeared like a dime on the front of the ball where they spun around the axis. Football spin.

So is a gyroball just a perfected slider? Is it really just a different way of delivering the ball -- achieving the same desired football spin through a different set of mechanics than is conventionally taught for the slider -- rather than a different spin?

If so, this would take a bit of the intrigue away from the pitch.

#11 dcb46

  • 518 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:59 PM

Fris, believe it or not I did not see your post while I was composing mine.

#12 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:46 PM

I was fascinated by and agreed with everything you said, except  the last part where you inclined that Japanese baseball is already on par with MLB because they won the WBC.  Please, the best MLB players from the US weren't even on that team, not to mention that many of the best MLB players aren't FROM the US (Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Venezuela).  I completely agree with you however that Japanese NPB is growing and evolving, and is rapidly advancing in terms of quality and skill toward MLB.


I don't believe the MLB and the Nippon league are on par; just that Japanese baseball is rapidly approaching parity, and that American ignorance of Japanese computer simulations and research into baseball isn't doing us any favors.

Could you go into more detail about the "various differences" between the different TYPES of Gyroball? I hadn't heard of them, I only thought there was 1 Gyro, and that the confusion was between people who thought it broke in on a righty and people (like Will) who claimed it broke away from righties.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


There are four types of gyroballs - at least. They are all held with the same basic grip, but by altering the tilt of the wrist and slight changes to the arm action, you can produce wildly different results.

#13 Smiling Joe Hesketh


  • now batting steve sal hiney. the leftfielder, hiney


  • 23,326 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:48 PM

Kyle, would it be possible to post some pictures of the grip on the basball for the gyro? I think in this case showing folks how one grips it may be a lot clearer than trying to describe it.

Also, what is the difference between throwing a gyroball and the more ordinary slider? Folks over at BTF are saying it sounds like the same grip and the same arm action.

#14 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:49 PM

But, but, but...the YouTube Scouting Service said...

Seriously though, have you had a chance to throw it to actual hitters yet?  Either in a batting practice type of setting or otherwise?

Has there been any discussion on how quick hitters can adjust to this type of pitch, never having seen it before?  It's been a while since a truly "new" pitch has been seen over here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I have thrown the pitch to hitters, but not in a game setting - it's the offseason here and I'm actually about to head to baseball workouts right now! Most of the hitters I work with say the pitch resembles a good sinker for the most part. I taught my friend a variation on the gyroball, and he throws the sinker-variant (which is achieved by tilting the hand down slightly).

While his velocity is slow and it's still very raw, he gets good tight bullet-spin on the pitch here:



You can somewhat see the resemblence of this pitch and some of Matsuzaka's gyroballs.

#15 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:51 PM

BTF now has a discussion thread about this post.

One interesting note already: one poster says that the book on the gyroball translates to "The Truth of the Magic Pitch."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I will address more questions when I return from baseball workouts, but I wanted to make sure I got to this one: The translation of the book has come to mean a lot of things. If you take it literally, it means "Demon Pitch." However, kanji is a weird character set, and by taking it into context, I have gotten a lot of results ranging from Magic Pitch to Miracle Ball.

#16 86spike


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Posted 09 January 2007 - 03:05 PM

you got any youtubes of yourself throwing the 4 different pitches?

Interesting stuff

#17 kazuneko

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 04:15 PM

I will address more questions when I return from baseball workouts, but I wanted to make sure I got to this one: The translation of the book has come to mean a lot of things. If you take it literally, it means "Demon Pitch." However, kanji is a weird character set, and by taking it into context, I have gotten a lot of results ranging from Magic Pitch to Miracle Ball.

Though I am not sure if the exact English translation of this is really that neccesary I can explain some of the issues involved.
A large percentage of Japanese words are made up of two logographic characters (called kanji in Japanese but actually of Chinese origin). One interesting part of compound character words in Japanese is that they make creating new words that combine multiple ideas relatively simple. Japanese simply take one logogram associated with one meaning and combine it with another logogram associated with another meaning and through this develop words that represent new but understandable compound ideas. In the book title the first word of the title is this type of created word and as such is based on two common characters. The first of these logograms is a character most commonly used in the words "demon" and "magic" . The second character is is most commonly used in the word "ball" and "baseball" and in this context clearly refers to the latter.
The second word is a standard Japanese 2 character compound word. The first of the characters is most associated with the meaning "correct" and the second is most commonly associated with the meaning "form" or "body". Taken together they make a word that means "actual form" or "true form" or even "original form".
As a rule I think direct translation like this is interesting but relatively unimportant. If one wanted to directly translate this the words "magic ball" or "demon ball" and "actual form" or "true form" might all work equally well, but in reality all these phrases sound awkward in English and through this awkwardness impart an exotic quality to the translation that does not exist in the original Japanese. As the term gyroball is now widely understood in baseball circles I think the most fitting translation would be something along the lines of "The Truth about the Gyroball" .

Edited by kazuneko, 09 January 2007 - 08:35 PM.


#18 dcb46

  • 518 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 04:32 PM

Well the suggestion it moves like a sinker has me completely flummoxed, because the other descriptions of the gyroball have it moving (for a RHP) sharply away from a RHB. The prototypical sinkers I have seen (Bob Stanley and DLowe at their best) did not move anything like that. Nor do I understand that sinkerballers attempt to put a football spin on the ball. The discussions of the Magnus effect I have seen do not suggest that a ball with a football spin will move like a sinker. So I hope we can get this clarified.

#19 smackdown924

  • 283 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 04:47 PM

There are four types of gyroballs - at least. They are all held with the same basic grip, but by altering the tilt of the wrist and slight changes to the arm action, you can produce wildly different results.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This is most interesting indeed. If a pitcher became a master of the Gyro, he could throw the same pitch and get 4 different results.... puzzling for a batter. Could you please go into more detail about the 4 different types of gyroballs, the differences in wrist and arm action, and what exactly are the "wildly different results" of each variant?

EDIT:
may have found some answers in this vid (of you, apparently) throwing gyroball variants:

http://www.youtube.c...de=user&search=

Edited by smackdown924, 09 January 2007 - 05:08 PM.


#20 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 04:59 PM

Well the suggestion it moves like a sinker has me completely flummoxed, because the other descriptions of the gyroball have it moving (for a RHP) sharply away from a RHB.  The prototypical sinkers I have seen (Bob Stanley and DLowe at their best) did not move anything like that.  Nor do I understand that sinkerballers attempt to put a football spin on the ball.  The discussions of the Magnus effect I have seen do not suggest that a ball with a football spin will move like a sinker.  So I hope we can get this clarified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


By removing the x/y axes from the ball's spin, we remove the lift force from the equation of the pitch. As a result, the pitch behaves like a dead ball / drop ball - perhaps the term "sinker" was a poor one.

#21 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:03 PM

Kyle, would it be possible to post some pictures of the grip on the basball for the gyro? I think in this case showing folks how one grips it may be a lot clearer than trying to describe it.

Also, what is the difference between throwing a gyroball and the more ordinary slider? Folks over at BTF are saying it sounds like the same grip and the same arm action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I might be able to post the grip of the gyroball if I feel confident that I am throwing it perfectly. As it is, the pitch is not perfected by me or anyone I am aware of in the United States, and as such, I don't want to spread misinformation. This is Will Carroll's big sticking point as well - he agreed to teach me the pitch if I did not sell the information or disseminate false information about the pitch. As a result, I probably will not disclose the pitch grips or a write a tutorial on how to throw it until I feel I am completely comfortable with the pitch. I hope you all understand - I don't want kids and other people throwing what they believe to be a "gyroball" when indeed the arm action is much different than they think, and could end up injuring arms. Neither Will nor I want to be responsible for such problems. That said, I would have no problem showing someone in Seattle how to do it with the same agreed-upon clauses.

The grip of the slider and the gyroball sound exactly the same - I will admit this. However, they are very different. The slider is held with the index/ring fingers across the top of the ball, and the fingers are held on the side of the ball on the gyroball. Think: Pull down across the seams to impart bullet-spin.

#22 gyroballerkyle

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:05 PM

This is most interesting indeed.  If a pitcher became a master of the Gyro, he could throw the same pitch and get 4 different results.... puzzling for a batter.  Could you please go into more detail about the 4 different types of gyroballs, the differences in wrist and arm action, and what exactly are the "wildly different results" of each variant?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, this is entirely possible. It is theoretically possible to survive on a fastball and variants of a gyroball, with a changeup thrown in there as well for good measure.

The different arm actions and tilts to the ball produce down/away movement (as you all have no doubt seen in Matsuzaka's videos), or true sinker/downwards drop to the pitch (also seen in a Matsuzaka video). I have seen it thrown with curve-like tendencies, and there is someone in the states trying to throw it across four seams, rather than two.

#23 BosoxBob

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:05 PM

Regarding types of gyroballs, you can think about two different variations using the football analogy. Consider the case where a quarterback is throwing a quick slant to his tight end across the middle. He will fire the football straight at his man, snapping his hand down to impart the typical spiral. This is the same basic motion as for a regular gyroball. Now consider the case where the quarterback is throwing a bomb to his wide receiver. While he still throws a spiral, the football leaves his hand at an upward angle, say in the 15-45 degree range. This is comparable to what is referred to as a gyroball with side force. This ball is supposed to drop less than a regular gyroball, but break to the left away from a righthanded hitter. An variation of this is if the pitcher holds the ball longer, such that the spin axis points down instead of up, which is supposed to cause a break to the right. A fourth kind, a gyroball with lift force, is thrown straight toward the plate, but with the hand more behind the ball than on the side, resulting in the spin axis pointing away from the plate toward the 3rd base side. In this case, the ball "rises" as compared to the drop on a regular gyroball. In addition to the different ways to release the ball, these pitches can be thrown in 2-seam or 4-seam versions, which will affect the amount of break/drop. To get an idea of what these pitches do, check out this picture taken from one of the original researcher's videos:
Posted Image
Shown are the end location of four pitches thrown from the same arm slot. The red dot is a fastball, the blue dot is a forkball, the white dot is a regular gyro, and the green dot is a gyro with side force. A gyro with lift force would end up somewhere between the red and white dots.

I wanted to post some links to relevant articles that I have been collecting (for those who are interested). This paper written by a physics professor at the University of Illinois contains a detailed discussion of what I've covered above. This site (Google translation from Japanese) has a slide presentation of the findings by the original researchers (Himeno/Tezuka), with this page having a series of videos presumably part of that presentation.

I also wanted to post this - a graphic purportedly depicting the throwing motion and break for a gyroball. I believe that this, along with many articles written on the subject, are incorrect. It shows the pitch being thrown with the wrist snapping over the top of the ball (similar to a screwball), imparting a clockwise spin. This disagrees with much of what I have read which indicates that the wrist goes straight down, producing a counterclockwise spin. Also, the graphic says that the pitch will break sharply to the left, which differs from what I described above. Perhaps Kyle can set the record straight here.

Based on these and other articles I have read, here's what I believe the main advantages of throwing the gyro are:
  • For a regular gyro, the ball drops similarly to a forkball or split-finger fastball, but at a speed closer to a regular fastball.
  • A slight change in grip and wrist action allows the pitcher to reduce the drop or impart sideways motion. This would allow the pitcher to overcome a batter who has learned to recognize the gyro from the different pitching motion, as the different variations probably look almost the same.
  • The claim by the researchers that proper double-spin throwing mechanics results in less stress on a pitcher's body.


#24 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:09 PM

I also wanted to post this - a graphic purportedly depicting the throwing motion and break for a gyroball. I believe that this, along with many articles written on the subject, are incorrect. It shows the pitch being thrown with the wrist snapping over the top of the ball (similar to a screwball), imparting a clockwise spin. This disagrees with much of what I have read which indicates that the wrist goes straight down, producing a counterclockwise spin. Also, the graphic says that the pitch will break sharply to the left, which differs from what I described above. Perhaps Kyle can set the record straight here.

Based on these and other articles I have read, here's what I believe the main advantages of throwing the gyro are:

  • For a regular gyro, the ball drops similarly to a forkball or split-finger fastball, but at a speed closer to a regular fastball.
  • A slight change in grip and wrist action allows the pitcher to reduce the drop or impart sideways motion. This would allow the pitcher to overcome a batter who has learned to recognize the gyro from the different pitching motion, as the different variations probably look almost the same.
  • The claim by the researchers that proper double-spin throwing mechanics results in less stress on a pitcher's body.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The wrist does not snap over the ball like a screwball/slider, that is for sure. This was the original thought of what the gyroball was - but in reality, this is more like the Japanese shuuto (best American translation: Slurve).

Again, think of throwing a football - you pull the fingers down unconsciously to impart spiral spin, producing rifle-like motion on the ball. Throw the pitch, pull down across a seam, impart bullet-spin - think of your hand like the chamber of a gun. Your wrist naturally pronates as you pull down, which is very important to finishing most pitches.

Your advantages list are right on. What I have posted doesn't even scratch the surface of the Miracle Ball / Demon Pitch book - there are tons of images and diagrams showing the benefits of double-spin mechanics, many of which I am trying to incorporate in my own delivery. Spinning the back leg to then lead the hips is one such motion that is highly touted in the book.

#25 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:15 PM

Welcome aboard, Kyle. Great stuff.

Did you throw a slider before you learned this pitch? If so, could you please elaborate on the differences between the pitches. What you describe above sounds very much like the way I was taught to throw a slider way back in the dark ages. Also, what speed is your gyroball thrown, i.e., is it faster than your curve, two seam fastball, etc.? Where would you rank it among pitches in terms of speed? Finally, have you seen any evidence that Matsuzaka throws this pitch?

Yo la tengo,
Fris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I did throw a slider before this pitch. In high school and college, my pitches were fastball, circle change, splitter, and cutter. Eventually I learned to throw a slider and a curve ball with relatively decent movement.

The gyroball comes in at about the same speed as my changeup.

And yes, there is overwhelming evidence that proves that Matsuzaka throws this pitch. When he said "I don't throw this pitch," he really meant that he does not throw it with any regularity, nor is it a typical pitch of his. It's like David Cone.

#26 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:16 PM

Also: Anyone watching my videos on YouTube, please note that my mechanics are garbage and need a ton of improvement. My newest video should be going up soon that corrects a lot of the loading problems.

Again, I'm re-learning how to pitch after shoulder trouble and many years out of baseball. I don't profess to be perfect, or even moderately good.

#27 smackdown924

  • 283 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:17 PM

Also: Anyone watching my videos on YouTube, please note that my mechanics are garbage and need a ton of improvement. My newest video should be going up soon that corrects a lot of the loading problems.

Again, I'm re-learning how to pitch after shoulder trouble and many years out of baseball. I don't profess to be perfect, or even moderately good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It actually looks better than I first anticipated. The movement on the pitches is good. Your enthusiasm and dedication shows. I can't wait to see more videos!

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/N4m8w3LcmwU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

The pitch list is as follows:

Side view:
1) Fastball: Four-Seam
2) Slider
3) Fastball: Four-Seam

Rear View:
1) Fastball: Four-Seam
2) Split Change
3) Slider
4) Gyroball-Sinker

Catcher View:
1) Fastball: Two-Seam
2) Slider
3) Curve
4) Gyroball-Curve
5) Fastball

Edited by smackdown924, 09 January 2007 - 05:26 PM.


#28 smackdown924

  • 283 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:25 PM

Kyle, have you examined any footage of Joey Niezer, or spoken about him with Will? The Gyroball I have heard about most from Will Carroll is the type that starts off moving toward a right handed batter, then breaks late back over the plate. That seems to be the same type of Gyro movement that Joey Niezer shows in this footage:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/OE4R8rYkUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

It also seems to be the same type of movement you showed in your "Gyro-Curve" Variant. Is there also a type that moves in toward a righty, as well as a version that sinks strait down? This would be a devastating combo that could be used against righties or lefties....

#29 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:29 PM

Kyle, have you examined any footage of Joey Niezer, or spoken about him with Will? The Gyroball I have heard about most from Will Carroll is the type that starts off moving toward a right handed batter, then breaks late back over the plate.  That seems to be the same type of Gyro movement that Joey Niezer shows in this footage:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/OE4R8rYkUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

It also seems to be the same type of movement you showed in your "Gyro-Curve" Variant.  Is there also a type that moves in toward a righty, as well as a version that sinks strait down?  This would be a devastating combo that could be used against righties or lefties....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Joey Niezer no longer speaks to Will Carroll, and denies ever throwing a gyroball or knowing Will Carroll at times. It's a feud that I don't know much about; I suspect it has to do with the media pressure Joey got while being scouted in high school.

I highly doubt I'll have that problem. :lol:

#30 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:32 PM

It actually looks better than I first anticipated.  The movement on the pitches is good.  Your enthusiasm and dedication shows.  I can't wait to see more videos!


Thank you! I am uploading a new video of a single side force gyroball (my go-to gyroball pitch). As soon as it's done encoding on YouTube, I'll share it. I also tinkered with some of my mechanics, hoping to cantilever over my back leg more, so I'll upload that one too.

Going to hit the shower now since I smell like a bed of roses. Or not.

#31 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:49 PM

Thank you! I am uploading a new video of a single side force gyroball (my go-to gyroball pitch). As soon as it's done encoding on YouTube, I'll share it. I also tinkered with some of my mechanics, hoping to cantilever over my back leg more, so I'll upload that one too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>






The first video is the side force gyro; the second is just two pitches from the side of me attempting to cantilever over the back leg to build more force. It seemed to work; my velocity was improved today.

EDIT: Changed them to URL's. How do you embed here?

Edited by URISoxFan, 09 January 2007 - 07:37 PM.


#32 CaptainLaddie


  • dj paul pfieffer


  • 19,358 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:56 PM

[ video] and [/ video] I believe.

#33 smackdown924

  • 283 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:26 PM

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c.../v/6kNRhCzUffM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I like the side motion. I think that is the one Will talked about when he mentioned Joey once throwing a pitch that started so far behind a RHB that he ducked forward to avoid being hit, only to have the pitch break back over the inside corner, forcing the batter to lean back.

(to embed a video from youtube just go to youtube and get the "embed" info, then paste it here, and below the box where you type your message there is a drop-down box that says "HTML OFF" you need to go down to "HTML ON" I go with auto line break, but it works either way.)

#34 URI


  • stands for life, liberty and the uturian way of life


  • 8,119 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:39 PM

(to embed a video from youtube just go to youtube and get the "embed" info, then paste it here, and below the box where you type your message there is a drop-down box that says "HTML OFF" you need to go down to "HTML ON" I go with auto line break, but it works either way.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Or you can take the you tube code (the thing after the = sign), and put the [ youtube] [/youtube ] code around it.

#35 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:43 PM

I like the side motion.  I think that is the one Will talked about when he mentioned Joey once throwing a pitch that started so far behind a RHB that he ducked forward to avoid being hit, only to have the pitch break back over the inside corner, forcing the batter to lean back. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thank you! I could start the pitch behind the batter and throw it across the plate, but I prefer to use it as an out pitch and get them to chase it.

#36 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 08:46 PM

I finally got around to reading the BTF link, and while I'm honored to be on Baseball Primer, I highly doubt I will engage in the mudslinging over there. It's clear that they don't want to hear about the pitch or believe it even exists, so it's not worth expending my time.

I'll drop a line over there saying as much. So, anyone from BTF who happens to be reading this, you can email me any specific questions at kyle dot boddy at gmail dot come and I'd be glad to answer them. However, I'm not doing it in a public forum where the masses don't want to hear what I have to say.

#37 86spike


  • SoSH Member


  • 20,504 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:59 AM

Kyle - thanks for sharing this stuff. I think you'll find a lot of interest in your progress and what you learn here.

And if a guy with the screen name gehrig38 has anything to add to the thread (which he might), his name is Curt and he knows a thing or two about throwign a baseball.

#38 twothousandone

  • 2,296 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:58 AM

This is fun reading. Once upon a time, didn't the world believe a curve didn't really curve? The split-fingered fastball is an "invention" of the last 30 years, right? Unless Roger Craig was actually throwing it in Brooklyn, when not working on his pisk-off move.

If/when one can gain some real cosistency with this, does it produce generaly less shoulder/elbow stress? Kyle, seems like you hurt your arm, but have gotten back o the mound. Is that sort of a Jim Morris thing that your arm just healed, or is the throwing motion so different that previuos troubles are just not a factor?

Is this something like a knuckleball, where those who can master can pitch way longer than the norm, or is that still TBD?

#39 BosoxBob

  • 1,682 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 12:30 PM

FYI - I just ran across this recent story about the gyroball, and it talks about Kyle and about Carroll teaching him the pitch.

#40 sheamonu

  • 292 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 02:24 PM

Great stuff - to me it sounds and looks like an out pitch that a pitcher might go to 5-6 times a game to meet a specific situation. Because it looks like the amount of arm extension you can get on the pitch is limited, throwing it more often than that might lead to tipping the hitter. Wakefield might actually want to look in to messing around with this - a hitter trying to stay back on a knuckleball could really have a tough time laying off this kind of a pitch and it doesn't seem that you need throw the ball with huge velocity to get a sharp, late break.

Edited by sheamonu, 10 January 2007 - 02:25 PM.


#41 gcapalbo

  • 2,014 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 04:47 PM

I have read your impressive initial post and the subsequent analysis and the whole thing taken together makes a lot of sense.

It seems quite logical that there just wouldn't be just one variant to this pitch and this makes it all the more useful.

My feeling about the 'gyroball' in general, and whether or not Matsuzaka actually throws it is that some 'mystery' is an important element to this pitch-- and to his success. All quite intentional by Matsuzaka, I believe.

It is also an interesting comment that US baseball is either unaware or ignoring the basic research being done by the Japanese on the physics/science of baseball.

I do get the feeling that at least Theo has been paying attention, so things are changing.

IF it proves to be a useful weapon, does the 'Gyroball' and its variants become all the rage in MLB and younger levels of baseball in the 2007 season?

To that end, I note that you worry about kids hurting their arms trying to throw this pitch... and if it becomes a 'fad' could that be a real issue?

My question for you would be: How does throwing this pitch affect your arm/elbow/shoulder compared to the more standard slider or even a curveball?

i.e. does it stress your arm to throw a 'Gyroball'?

#42 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 07:51 PM

If/when one can gain some real cosistency with this, does it produce generaly less shoulder/elbow stress? Kyle, seems like you hurt your arm, but have gotten back o the mound. Is that sort of a Jim Morris thing that your arm just healed, or is the throwing motion so different that previuos troubles are just not a factor?

Is this something like a knuckleball, where those who can master can pitch way longer than the norm, or is that still TBD?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The pitch itself feels easier on the arm/shoulder, but I don't think it'll be a knuckleball-like pitch that replaces a typical repetoire.

RE: My injuries, they weren't serious, so this pitch is not "helping" me back to the mound, per se.

#43 gyroballerkyle

  • 59 posts

Posted 10 January 2007 - 07:55 PM

IF it proves to be a useful weapon, does the 'Gyroball' and its variants become all the rage in MLB and younger levels of baseball in the 2007 season?

To that end, I note that you worry about kids hurting their arms trying to throw this pitch... and if it becomes a 'fad' could that be a real issue?

My question for you would be: How does throwing this pitch affect your arm/elbow/shoulder compared to the more standard slider or even a curveball? 

i.e. does it stress your arm to throw a 'Gyroball'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The gyroball is a good pitch for me, and I'm just an amateur player. I would imagine that someone who could throw it exceptionally well would have a great weapon in their arsenal.

I worry about Little League injuries not because of the gyroball, but because of breaking pitches in general. Kids should learn to locate their fastball and throw the changeup for a strikeout pitch first before experimenting with breaking pitches. You can get hitters out throughout high school with curves and sliders easily, but the real challenge if you want to move up is to strike them out by locating the fastball. Kids will get a lot farther by doing that first before moving to secondary pitches.

As I've said before, the pitch feels easier on the arm than most other pitches.

#44 Bdanahy14

  • 1,799 posts

Posted 11 January 2007 - 04:36 PM

This is very, very true. The problem is, it is so hard for kids to lay off the curve at a young age. The one kid who I grew up with that turned into a great pitcher in College and Cape Cod never threw any breaking stuff. He focused on location and if he needed to mix up speeds he threw a change. He did well because of his velocity, but never great. When he became fully developed and worked in some breaking pitches, he already had phenomenal control on his fastball. To many kids worry about throwing junk, it's unfortunate.

#45 IronManny

  • 52 posts

Posted 11 January 2007 - 04:44 PM

This is very, very true.  The problem is, it is so hard for kids to lay off the curve at a young age.  The one kid who I grew up with that turned into a great pitcher in College and Cape Cod never threw any breaking stuff.  He focused on location and if he needed to mix up speeds he threw a change.  He did well because of his velocity, but never great.  When he became fully developed and worked in some breaking pitches, he already had phenomenal control on his fastball.  To many kids worry about throwing junk, it's unfortunate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is so true. I was never anything special as a pitcher, but as a kid I could not resist throwing my curve as my 'out pitch'. In reality it was a curveball by the loosest definition of the term (more like just a crappy changeup), but somehow it got people out. My coach always told me never to throw breaking stuff, but whenever I was in trouble I started throwing it anyways.

Lots of the other pitchers did the same thing. We would hang out at practice working on our curves when we were supposed to be throwing fastballs. It's pretty irresistable for a young pitcher.

#46 gcapalbo

  • 2,014 posts

Posted 11 January 2007 - 06:18 PM

One of the things I love about SoSH is that someone like lurker (and baseball physics expert) alannathan will read our musings and feel we are worthy of being set straight when it comes to something like the gyroball.

Check this out:

Hi...I am a member of RSN and a physics of baseball expert. Saw your post on SoSH today ("It is also an interesting comment that US baseball is either unaware or ignoring the basic research being done by the Japanese on the physics/science of baseball."). Just wanted to let you know that there are people in the US studying the physics of the gyroball (me!). An earlier post referred to an article I wrote. I am not able to post on SoSH (not sure why), but I am a regular listener. I have an ongoing research project to learn about the aerodynamics of the gyroball.



You can download a pdf of Alan's article here. The work he did is based on data he received from Dr. Ryutaro Himeno, the Japanese computer scientist who 'discovered' the Gyroball.

It is a very, very interesting read, and I think it counters the notion that baseball scientists in the good Ol' USA are not paying attention. Indeed, we are right on top of things.

In a nutshell, the funky trajectories and 'double break' we are seeing in our YouTube scouting of what is supposed to be a 'gyroball' are at odds with what physics tells us. (So what are we seeing, eh?)

As an aside, I for one think it would be good to have a physicist like alannathan on 'staff' here to help help us sort things like this out.

Dopes? LJ? What do you think?

#47 redsoxstiff


  • hip-tossed Yogi in a bar fight


  • 6,647 posts

Posted 11 January 2007 - 11:06 PM

Thanks for the effort...

Best thread in a long while...

#48 Noah

  • 3,137 posts

Posted 11 January 2007 - 11:22 PM

I've had the chance to speak with Dr. Nathan in the past and he is a great physicist, a great baseball fan, and a great Red Sox fan. He should definitely be a member.

#49 BosoxBob

  • 1,682 posts

Posted 12 January 2007 - 01:12 AM

As an aside, I for one think it would be good to have a physicist like alannathan on 'staff' here to help help us sort things like this out.

Dopes?  LJ?  What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I received a PM from Prof. Nathan last night, as I am the person who posted information taken from his paper (see post #23 in this thread). I took the initiative to put in a good word for him to the dopes (thanks, philly!), and he was made a member today. However, I can't figure out why we haven't see a post from him yet. Doesn't he know that posting on SoSH is more important than teaching some college physics class? :(

#50 Frisbetarian


  • ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫


  • 4,159 posts

Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:13 AM

The grip of the slider and the gyroball sound exactly the same - I will admit this. However, they are very different. The slider is held with the index/ring fingers across the top of the ball, and the fingers are held on the side of the ball on the gyroball. Think: Pull down across the seams to impart bullet-spin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I hope you don't mind one more question about the difference between the gyroball and a slider. There is a terminology issue with many pitches, but the most confused is the slider, the hard slider, and the cut fastball. Really, what we call the pitch doesn't matter as all I really want do is learn more about the gyro, but in order to do that I think we must first define our terms. What you describe as your slider, with the fingers across top of the ball to start the pitch and (I'm guessing) a finger twisting motion to release the ball with your hand in a position much like you were shaking hands, I would consider a hard slider, or perhaps a cutter. The pitch I first learned as a slider, which this website WebBall calls a "football slider," has you start with your fingers and thumb on opposite sides of the ball, much like holding a football, and also to release the ball in that position, with no twisting of the wrist or fingers, with the ball coming off your fingers in an attempt to emulate the spiral (side) spin of a football. I have also heard this pitch called a "football curve," and taught to younger players (not a good idea, imo) with the thought that the lack of a twisting motion makes the pitch easier on your elbow while still allowing you a breaking pitch. The trouble arises, however, when a pitcher learns that twisting the hand further, like opening a door (the doorknob slider), upon release of the ball creates a much more dramatic break, as well as almost certain elbow pain. But I digress, what I would really like to know is, first were you aware of the "football slider/curve" before learning the gyroball? Also, there are many similarities between the pitches including grip, release, ball rolling off the fingers to create side spin as it also moves forward, and a late break (generally, although this can be altered somewhat by grip and arm position) away and down from a same handed hitter, can you tell me the differences between the pitches? If this would in any way violate your agreement with Will C, would it be possible for you to PM me? Thanks.