714 replies to this topic

[Lose Remerswaal]

According to today's Globe, the Sox owners met for lunch with Theo Epstein yesterday to continue negotiations on a new deal. Theo is a free agent as of October 31, and there are other GM jobs out there, such as the Phillies, Orioles (if they don't let Flanagan go it alone, Theo has worked there before), Tampa Bay, and who knows what else might become available (Cashman leaves the Yankees?)! Would Theo consider working in New York as the ultimate Big Time Job (no doubt at Big Bucks from George)? Would the Phillies or someone offer him tons of cash to turn their team around? Is he tired of no privacy in Boston (such as reports in the Globe of him being here and there) and looking to move somewhere else where he can be more anonymous?

What do the Sox do if Theo moves on? Is Josh Byrnes the answer? Does Billy Beane want to work someplace where he has the budget to compete? Would the Sox even negotiate with him again?

OK. There's 20 questions or so for ya. Have at it.

Edit: Change title

Edit: Damn Globe

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 31 October 2005 - 07:18 PM.

[rgmfick]

According to today's Globe, the Sox owners met for lunch with Theo Epstein yesterday to continue negotiations on a new deal.  Theo is a free agent as of October 31, and there are other GM jobs out there, such as the Phillies, Orioles (if they don't let Flanagan go it alone, Theo has worked there before), Tampa Bay, and who knows what else might become available (Cashman leaves the Yankees?)!  Would Theo consider working in New York as the ultimate Big Time Job (no doubt at Big Bucks from George)?  Would the Phillies or someone offer him tons of cash to turn their team around?  Is he tired of no privacy in Boston (such as reports on SoSH of him entering the park late at night with young ladies) and looking to move somewhere else where he can be more anonymous?

What do the Sox do if Theo moves on?  Is Josh Byrnes the answer?  Does Billy Beane want to work someplace where he has the budget to compete?  Would the Sox even negotiate with him again?

OK.  There's 20 questions or so for ya.  Have at it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would not be the end of the world, but not having Theo as the GM of the Red Sox would be a big step in the wrong direction and suggest the egos of the Trio are bigger obstacles than we thought. It is amusing that Theo might be concerned with the same lack of privacy that Manny and DWells are. Theo is worth a large raise and, in my opinion, more idependent authority as GM.

[Doza]

I really hope this Cashman powerplay is just rumor. This team needs Theo. It would be a huge setback. Someone else would step in and - quite frankly - it will set back what has been done here atleast two year, with respects to development, and scouting etc.

[Bdanahy14]

I really hope this Cashman powerplay is just rumor.  This team needs Theo.  It would be a huge setback.  Someone else would step in and - quite frankly - it will set back what has been done here atleast two year, with respects to development, and scouting etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do have some really talented young minds in the FO. Enough where we could lose Theo and possibly aquire the new GM in house. Byrnes and Woodfork come to mind first. These guys are very familiar with our farm system and the current state of the red sox player development program.

Obviously, keeping Theo is the most important thing. But, if we can't.. we will survive.

Edited by Bdanahy14, 12 October 2005 - 09:34 AM.

[absintheofmalaise]

The sox need Theo to continue to implement the plan to develop the farm system. Sure he's had some misses with FAs and trades. What GM hasn't? I don't think the problem is with the trio per se, more like one member of it if what you hear about is true. As for him going to NY, that is ridiculous. If he feels that he doesn't have enough autonomy in Boston how would he feel having to deal with Steinbrenner and the Tampa cabal undercutting and second guessing everything he does.
As for Beane, how could you trust him after he already backed out of a deal once.

[mr guido]

He'll be back. If the boy from Boston who is a god in Boston who has his charities he's running with his family in Boston and the beginnings of his long term plan developing in Boston leaves Boston... then I don't know what to tell ya other than ownership would have to screw the pooch big time for that to happen, and we probably would be getting whatever we deserve.

If he doesn't come back it'll be because someone decided he wasn't worth paying, at a maximum, what Kevin Millar earned this year...

[Paul M]

For continuity's sake and because I think he is able to handle the media and Boston atmosphere as well as anyone, I'd be disappointed if they couldn't hammer something out.

If they don't bring him back, why? Are his demands unreasonable?

I doubt they'd find someone better for this team.

Would they survive? Sure, they would. But, a transition for no real good reason is not smart.

[NJ Fan]

Re the lack of privacy...why did he do the DD commercial? I read where he donated his fee entirely to charity and that DD has a long relationship with the team but the exposure of that spot certainly contributed to additional (and unncessary) awareness to the casual fan.

I hope he gets rewarded with a new 3-year deal. Besides a raise, he'll need to get some additional bone thrown his way.

I'm definitely concerned about burn-out factor, though.

Edited by NJ Fan, 12 October 2005 - 09:47 AM.

[possumbait]

If he doesn't come back it'll be because someone decided he wasn't worth paying, at a maximum, what Kevin Millar earned this year...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was going to post that Theo should not be considered more irreplaceable within the organization than a given player, but that I thought they would come to terms because it was the most sensible thing for all sides.

But guido's comment said it better.

[Maalox]

If he doesn't come back it'll be because someone decided he wasn't worth paying, at a maximum, what Kevin Millar earned this year...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This would be a great rhetorical point if it weren't Theo who had judged Millar worth that much in the first place.

[Steve Dillard]

Obviously for continuity sake, you try to keep him. He handles the players and the media well, which is a large part of the battle.

The sox need Theo to continue to implement the plan to develop the farm system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean, (1) keep promiting players that he inherited from Duquette, and (2) supplement them by allowing our free agents to go so that he gets a buck load of draft picks that he hopefully doesn't spend on drug addicted catchers or sore-armed HS players?

I kid, I kid. But seriously, the "rebuilding the farm system" is overplayed, as you can point to a lot of questionable decisions in that regard.

[Paul M]

I dunno, in two years they have three prospects at the MLB level or about to make contributions from the last 3 drafts--Papelbon, Pedroia, Hansen.

The farm system is not a machine yet, but these are three top prospects drafted since Theo became GM.

And a draft takes at least five years to truly evaluate.

And Theo developed Lester, and Sanchez. Development is probably more important than anything else.

[Steve Dillard]

I dunno, in two years they have three prospects at the MLB level or about to make contributions from the last 3 drafts--Papelbon, Pedroia, Hansen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Papelbon, no question. Not only a good draft, but a tough draft, given his relieving in college, and his spot in the draft. A definite plus and feather in Theo's cap.

Pedroia, a good prospect, but not a clear A find like Howie Kendrick (8th round) or the like.

Hansen - not really any credit due Theo. He was a known quantity available to any team willing to spend $4 million. Once you are in that category, you really can't judge a player for being "major league" ready, as that was a given. The question is whether $4 million is too much, or whether it is spent on the right guy in that "MLB ready" group. Let's see how Luke Hochevar, Danks, Haverns (other potential $2 million plus guys) pan out as a comparison.

[soxfan121]

1. If Theo doesn't return, what will yecul do?

2. The only guys who figure to be available and have the skills I think are necessary for the job are Gerry Hunsicker & Brian Cashman. Unless there's another "unknown" with a bright future, etc. that no one has heard of yet.

3. Theo should get an extension, even if it means that LL goes to make him happy. Frankly, LL's expertise is in A.) building new ballparks and B.) being the front-man, "bad-guy" for a new ownership group. The Red Sox FO, without LL, would get along just fine. And since no new ballpark is ever going to happen, LL's best skills are wasted here.

[absintheofmalaise]

I kid, I kid. But seriously, the "rebuilding the farm system" is overplayed, as you can point to a lot of questionable decisions in that regard.

And the drawbacks to developing a good farm system are what exactly? Having good prospects to trade if/when the need arises? Have players who can come up and play significant roles on the MLB team, cheaply? Develop players so that the team does not have to constantly overspend on the FA market?

[Maalox]

But seriously, the "rebuilding the farm system" is overplayed, as you can point to a lot of questionable decisions in that regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure you can, if you want to play the "trees v. forest" game. But you can't refute the general statement that the farm system has improved under Theo because of Theo's decisions. You simply cannot do it.

Now, if what you really want to say is that the farm system won't continue to improve if Theo stays, then I suggest you go ahead and say that rather than trying to be cute.

[Rudy Pemberton]

But you can't refute the general statement that the farm system has improved under Theo because of Theo's decisions.

That's kind of subjective though; until you get performance (in terms of those players or those you trade them for). Duquette was lauded for his farm system early on, and many of those players never panned out or weren't traded for useful players.

[Maalox]

That's kind of subjective though;

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it isn't. We have more and better players at higher levels in our farm system now than we had five years ago.

[redsoxstiff]

JH has insisted that they want Theo...
I can't wax wroth with so little likelihood...but I will say IF...He goes...The stench around Yawkey Way will be tough on the neighborhood.

[Maalox]

JH has insisted that they want Theo...
I can't wax wroth with so little likelihood...but I will say IF...He goes...The stench around Yawkey Way will be tough on the neighborhood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he dies, he dies.

[Rudy Pemberton]

No, it isn't. We have more and better players at higher levels in our farm system now than we had five years ago.

Again- that's irrelevant until they provide production for the big team, isn't it?

[Steve Dillard]

Sure you can, if you want to play the "trees v. forest" game. But you can't refute the general statement that the farm system has improved under Theo because of Theo's decisions. You simply cannot do it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if you look at the three pre-Theo years, you have the farm system adding Hanley Ramirez, Tony Blanco, Jorge Delarosa and Anibal Sanchez internationally. Look now at the international signings and show me the equivalent guys who will percolate up to AA in 3 years.

In the four pre-Theo years (99-02) they drafted Lester, Youkilis, Delcarmen, Fossum and Shoppach. That seems like the core of the farm system that we laud today. (And, it was all done with few premium picks, because of the free agents the Sox signed under Duke - in comparison, Theo has the benefit of 6 top 2 round picks this year.)


I say all of this not to slag on Theo, because I am pleased with his work as GM. However, the point of the question is whether we are doomed if Theo leaves, and I think pointing to the "rebuilding of the farm" as one of his accomplishments is overplayed.

[Bdanahy14]

I say all of this not to slag on Theo, because I am pleased with his work as GM.  However, the point of the question is whether we are doomed if Theo leaves, and I think pointing to the "rebuilding of the farm" as one of his accomplishments is overplayed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But, Theo has been the GM that has held onto these prospects. Who knows how many offers he has turned down involving these guys. He may not have rebuilt the farm system, but he has most certianly shaped it.

[Rudy Pemberton]

But, Theo has been the GM that has held onto these prospects. Who knows how many offers he has turned down involving these guys. He may not have rebuilt the farm system, but he has most certianly shaped it.

The thing is...whether holding on to these guys is a good or bad thing is yet to be determined, isn't it?

[ShaneTrot]

I say all of this not to slag on Theo, because I am pleased with his work as GM.  However, the point of the question is whether we are doomed if Theo leaves, and I think pointing to the "rebuilding of the farm" as one of his accomplishments is overplayed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know this is a big issue with you Steve but I think you don't give enough credit to Theo with the development of the players Theo inherited. Lester and Sanchez have improved every year under the Theo administration. There seems to be a clear system-wide plan to develop pitchers while keeping them healthy.

There also seems to be an initiative in the system to promote players in a rational manner. I don't think you would see the Theo administration promote a guy like Duncan in the MFY system to the EL before he was ready.

[5belongstoGeorge]

If THeo is planning on trading Manny he should leave now.

[941827]

1) I love the "Theo won with Duquette's players" argument, which ignores the contributions of, oh, I don't know, Ortiz, Foulke, Schilling, Roberts, Cabrera, Mientkiewicz, etc.

2) For those who crap on Theo for letting "fan favorites" like Pedro, Lowe and Nomar go, I hope you recall the departures of Mo and Roger during the Duquette era.

3) Part of the measure of a GM is the guys that he doesn't trade. The fact that the top Duquette-era prospects are still on the team should tell you a lot -- Theo hasn't thrown those guys away to bring in the AJ Burnetts of the world. Relatedly, with the exception of Casey Fossum this year, I cannot think of a single player traded away by Theo who has been successful at the major league level for more than a month or two (Matt Murton may become a second exception). Who am I forgetting (Brandon Lyon almost makes the cut, but I don't think he's yet been healthy for more than two consecutive months)?

[absintheofmalaise]

I say all of this not to slag on Theo, because I am pleased with his work as GM. However, the point of the question is whether we are doomed if Theo leaves, and I think pointing to the "rebuilding of the farm" as one of his accomplishments is overplayed.

Steve, you used the phrase "rebuilding of the farm". What I said was "continue to implement the plan to develop the farm system". Big difference there. I'm looking at it as an ongoing plan that hasn't had time to show many results yet. It is not yet an accomplishment. Could be one in a couple of years. No way to conclude if it is until more players develop into MLB quality guys, or not.

[Bdanahy14]

The thing is...whether holding on to these guys is a good or bad thing is yet to be determined, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, on one level. But they hold value before they arrive in the big leagues and I feel they should hold onto them unless:

A) a deal that can't be ignored is proposed
B) They start to show rapid signs of their value deflating

I just think that Theo has done a good job holding on to talent that is gaining value. Obviously, there we have some top prospects that may be at their peak of value (Sanchez?) and it is very hard to determine their sucess at a major league level. But we have a pretty darn good core of young prospects, this is something we have not had in a long time, and i feel that it has to do with Theo and the rest of the player development team.

Edited by Bdanahy14, 12 October 2005 - 11:27 AM.

[Steve Dillard]

I know this is a big issue with you Steve but I think you don't give enough credit to Theo with the development of the players Theo inherited. Lester and Sanchez have improved every year under the Theo administration. There seems to be a clear system-wide plan to develop pitchers while keeping them healthy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I don't know enough about the "development" aspect to determine if it counts for something. It is ironic, though, that Sanchez's development seems to have been credited per BA to his arm surgery in 2003 (on Theo's watch), not to any real development by the farm system (i.e. new pitch, etc.). Also, remember Manny Delcarmen blew out his arm on Theo's watch. That probably is just par for the course in any system, but it also suggests it is too early to tell if the health controls (limiting innings, pitch counts, etc.) will result in healthier pitchers.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I do think that Theo has done a good job, but why are we only talking about the farm system?

What will the core of the team look like next year? Three years down the road?

[Paul M]

I don't follow this at all.

Only Youkilis was a middle-round pick, and guys like Fossum, Shoppach, Delcarmen, and Lester were clearly not.

Papelbon has contributed more than almost all of these heralded prospects and more already than most of the guys in the pre-2002 period.

And if we can't comment on the farm system until they produce meaningfully for the big club, let's wait until 2015 for Philly's 2005 study because that's how long it might take.

Are we better off today than where we were in 2002? The answer is yes. They made the playoffs three years in a row and the farm system by anyone who follows it agrees we are in much better shape. We were 23rd in players on League Top 20 lists in 2002 and had pretty much no pitchers close to helping in 2002 and guys like Josh Thigpen were in our top 10. Jon Lester was #6 and he had 1 appearance in the GCL.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

This would be a great rhetorical point if it weren't Theo who had judged Millar worth that much in the first place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Millar deal was a good one. He didn't hit, it happens.

[Steve Dillard]

Papelbon has contributed more than almost all of these heralded prospects and more already than most of the guys in the pre-2002 period.

Well, Casey Fossum and Jorge DeLaRosa (via Schilling) and Dumatrait and Pelland (via Williamson) say hello.

Are we better off today than where we were in 2002? The answer is yes. They made the playoffs three years in a row and the farm system by anyone who follows it agrees we are in much better shape. We were 23rd in players on League Top 20 lists in 2002 and had pretty much no pitchers close to helping in 2002 and guys like Josh Thigpen were in our top 10. Jon Lester was #6 and he had 1 appearance in the GCL.

By that measure, Brian Cashman was a far better GM than Stick Michael, because he inherited the team that Michael built. Yet, you'll find nearly every Yankee fan pining for Michael.

As for your comment about "guys like Josh Thigpen" I see no evidence that in four years we won't complain about "guys like Clay I am an Idiot."

[Rudy Pemberton]

Are we better off today than where we were in 2002? The answer is yes. They made the playoffs three years in a row and the farm system by anyone who follows it agrees we are in much better shape. We were 23rd in players on League Top 20 lists in 2002 and had pretty much no pitchers close to helping in 2002 and guys like Josh Thigpen were in our top 10. Jon Lester was #6 and he had 1 appearance in the GCL.

My point is that the farm club was supposedly in great shape soon after Duquette took over and what happened? Most of those players flopped and return was not maximized.

It was too early in 1998 to say that Duquette had reformed the farm system, and likely too early right now to say the same about Theo. The early returns are promising, but I think it's way too premature to suggest that Theo (and his staff) are geniuses when it comes to the draft.

Much as it is also too early to say that he can't build a bullpen!

This off-season is incredibly important; last off-seasons moves were somewhat questionable, IMO, at the time and more so after the year, in hindsight.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

As for your comment about "guys like Josh Thigpen" I see no evidence that in four years we won't complain about "guys like Clay I am an Idiot."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most objective observers, people who judge and rank farm systems, believe that the Red Sox system has improved dramatically in the past few years. I am no prospect maven, but I am encouraged that people without an agenda are optimistic about our guys. If you have some objective reason to discourage us, please elaborate.

Most prospects do not pan out. But even the perception that our prospects are good has value to the team.

[JimD]

If Theo goes, the perception will be awful, but in reality I would think that one of his assistants may certainly be capable of stepping up and sitting in the big chair.

Wild and crazy idea - could J.P. Ricciardi be convinced to come home if the job opens?

JD

[Paul M]

You said that the Sox had no high picks and intimated Lester, et al. were hidden gems compared to Pedroia and Hansen.

Papelbon is the one that's panned out; Dumatrait, Simon, and Thigpen who have not and these were the guys occupying spots on the top 10 before Theo came.

It's safe to say we are better than we were 3 years ago in the farm.

It's not about being geniuses; it's about committing to improving the farm system and making better picks when it counts--the early rounds.

No one would trade farms with us in 2001 and they would today.

[Rudy Pemberton]

It's not about being geniuses; it's about committing to improving the farm system and making better picks when it counts--the early rounds.

Not to be a dick, but Scott White, Pat Perry, Tommy Hottovy, Kyle Bono, etc. appear to be blown picks already, don't they?

No one would trade farms with us in 2001 and they would today.

But what about 1998?

[smastroyin]

Are we better off today than where we were in 2002? The answer is yes. They made the playoffs three years in a row and the farm system by anyone who follows it agrees we are in much better shape. We were 23rd in players on League Top 20 lists in 2002 and had pretty much no pitchers close to helping in 2002 and guys like Josh Thigpen were in our top 10. Jon Lester was #6 and he had 1 appearance in the GCL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other than basically blowing their first pick in 2003, they have been doing fine.

When they picked Murphy, the following guys were still on the board:

Conor Jackson, who Theo wanted and was talked out of
Brandon Wood
Carlos Quentin
Daric Barton
Chad Cordero (although noone projected him very high, he has done ten times better than Ryan Wagner who the Sox were hoping to fall)
Bryan Snyder (900 OPS in A ball last year but admittedly injured for most or 2005)
Chad Billingsley

Murphy may be my least favorite player in the Sox system expressly because of this circumstance combined with the fact that he has barely outperformed his college teammate Chris durbin who was draft 9 rounds later. Who the hell scouted Murphy and what has been wrong with him?

All were gone by the time the Sox got their second pick, with which they chose Matt Murton, who will probably have the best career of any guy the Sox picked in that draft. (It's still very early, I know) I wouldn't be surprised if they were expecting Quentin or Snyder to fall to that spot, and they may have drafted them then.

I really hope Murphy turns it on. And I really really hope the Sox figure out how to find some damn talent with their first round draft choices. It's been quite a drought since Nomar:

Andy Yount, Corey Jenkins, Josh Garrett, Chris Reitsma (got us Dante Bichette!!), John Curtice, Mark Fischer, Adam Everett (got us Carl), Rick Asadoorian, Brad Baker (part of getting Embree), Casey Fossum (the class of this list, part of getting us Schilling), Phil Dumatrait (traded for SWilly), David Murphy, Matt Murton, Jacoby Ellsbury, Craig Hansen

I hope that a couple of those last four work out because that is a silly bad collection of players for a team with a substantial number of draft picks and a purportedly big scouting budget. I mean pa-the-tic. We've had the discussion on whether it is the scouting or the development but in the end none the real result is that the Sox have gotten very little out of their picks. Basically Fossum, Reitsma, and now Baker (since being converted to relief) are the only ones to even have a single respectible season above A ball.

Edited by smastroyin, 12 October 2005 - 12:35 PM.

[templeUsox]

Not to be a dick, but Scott White, Pat Perry, Tommy Hottovy, Kyle Bono, etc. appear to be blown picks already, don't they?

Pat Perry was a 7th round pick who was probably overdrafted, but how much do you expect from a 7th round pick?

Tommy Hottovy has struggled, but I'm not ready to write him off until he fails as a reliever, the role he has been projected as.

Kyle Bono was an 8th round pick who was performing well until we traded him. We recouped his above slot bonus money, so I don't see a big deal here.

Scott White's a bust.

Theo's best drafting job isn't even on the team anymore. How can we forget about Matt Murton? Who has hit .321/.386/.521 in his 140 major league AB's. No position player from the 2003 draft has proven more than Murton. He might be our top prospect right now if we had kept him. If Murphy continues improve until, than that Murphy, Murton, Alvarez draft begins to look really good.

Edited by templeUsox, 12 October 2005 - 12:35 PM.

[Steve Dillard]

You said that the Sox had no high picks and intimated Lester, et al. were hidden gems compared to Pedroia and Hansen.

No, I said: "And, it was all done with few premium picks, because of the free agents the Sox signed under Duke - in comparison, Theo has the benefit of 6 top 2 round picks this year."

It's safe to say we are better than we were 3 years ago in the farm.

A fairly meaningless statement, given that most of the talent was in the system under Duquette, so the system would now be "better" if I or my dog were running the system. The question is whether the guys Theo now is bringing into the sytem will make it better in three years.

It's not about being geniuses; it's about committing to improving the farm system and making better picks when it counts--the early rounds.

Right. And, using hindsight already available in this short time, I can lament the first pick choice of Dave Murphy over Conor Jackson, Tracy, Brandon Wood (all chosen within 10 picks), the record bonus paid to Bono and Rozier, the DOA pick of Scott Blue in the 4th round, etc. I'll freely admit those are HINDSIGHT comments. But since past results are what we're attempting to value for Theo, he gets a middlin grade, salvaged principally because of one great pick (Papelbon).

And so far the return on the record $1.6 million spent for Mike Rozier (and the record $400,000 for Bono) is a lot worse than the Angels' return on their "premium bonus baby" Kenrick Moralez. If we keep spending our money like that we'll quickly see where our system is compared to the real heavyweights.

[amfox1]

Well, if you look at the three pre-Theo years, you have the farm system adding Hanley Ramirez, Tony Blanco, Jorge Delarosa and Anibal Sanchez internationally.  Look now at the international signings and show me the equivalent guys who will percolate up to AA in 3 years.

In the four pre-Theo years (99-02) they drafted Lester, Youkilis, Delcarmen, Fossum and Shoppach.  That seems like the core of the farm system that we laud today. (And, it was all done with few premium picks, because of the free agents the Sox signed under Duke - in comparison, Theo has the benefit of 6 top 2 round picks this year.)

I say all of this not to slag on Theo, because I am pleased with his work as GM.  However, the point of the question is whether we are doomed if Theo leaves, and I think pointing to the "rebuilding of the farm" as one of his accomplishments is overplayed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve -

Felix Doubront, Luis Soto and Carlos Hernandez, for three. It is somewhat of an unfair comparison because it often takes 1-2 years for a signed player to get to the US. In order to be in AA in three years, an international player needs to be in the US in 2006. Guys like Christian Lara and Moises Santa may have been signed pre-Theo but their development has been entirely during the Epstein era.

So? You still have to make use of scouting to make the right picks. You seem to be playing this both ways - denigrating Theo for picking prospects with high draft choices and lauding DD for signing international players when he does not need the money to sign high draft choices.

Drafting and development are two different things. One involves scouts who can find "diamonds in the rough" and the other involves coaches who can hone and develop that talent. Let's not lump them together unnecessarily.

If Theo leaves, we are far from doomed, as I believe Josh Byrnes or Peter Woodfork would pick up most of the slack and, together with Ben Cherington, would maintain the current draft/development philosophies. Going outside the organization is another matter entirely.

[smastroyin]

OK, dumb question would be how much of this was David Chadd's repsonsbility and how much was the responsibility of guys still in the organization.

I'm sure the guy is a hard worker, but I have to admit I was somewhat disappointed when they chose him. I guess he can get credit for Miguel Cabrera although I'm not sure of the timeline. The rest of his Marlins resume (at least as the head guy, I don't know who he scouted and cross-checked when he had those positions) is pretty spotty at least when I look at the construction of their team.

[SpittingDistance]

3. Theo should get an extension, even if it means that LL goes to make him happy. Frankly, LL's expertise is in A.) building new ballparks and B.) being the front-man, "bad-guy" for a new ownership group. The Red Sox FO, without LL, would get along just fine. And since no new ballpark is ever going to happen, LL's best skills are wasted here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The LL factor seems like a big one to me. Not for what it means to Theo in the "Would Theo resign if LL were still here" sense, but in the "How much easier might it be for Theo and the team be if LL were gone" sense. LL strikes me as young Steinbrenner in many ways. While he is fine if you need to have someone drop the hammer on a player, this is not that team. Considering that everyone in the club (FO included) seems so low key, LL's abrasiveness just seems out of place.

[PedroKsBambino]

Seems like the fact that everyone else is so low-key is exactly why LL is here and getting a nice extension, though.

I don't think Theo or JWH wants to be (or be perceived) as the bad cop. Nor does Tom Werner.

[Paul M]

If we're saying Scott White is a bust to downgrade Theo, then we should laud Jon Lester who was also picked that year!

It's hard to argue when people are intentionally misrepresenting their positions.

And, yes, because of the players brought in post-2002 we are better today. It's not just players who were here before like Hanley and Shoppach.

The one thing a team can't do is screw up the first three rounds because most top players are early picks. The Murphy move might make it a blemish, though it can't be nearly as bad as Corey Jenkins or John Curtice...I have to assume Murphy plays at least 1 game.

And if we say look at Pelland and Dumatrait (and $1 million but that's not material or something), then Murton paid a dividend in just over a year.

The work is far from over, but 5 top 20 AA prospects is very good. It takes five drafts, IMHO, so I won't belabor this further, but I do not see any reason to withold praise for the farm system.

[SpittingDistance]

Seems like the fact that everyone else is so low-key is exactly why LL is here and getting a nice extension, though.

I don't think Theo or JWH wants to be (or be perceived) as the bad cop.  Nor does Tom Werner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I'm asking if we need a bad cop on the payroll. Seems like EEI serves that function for free. I can't pull up any specific examples at the moment, but it has seemed in the past that what LL has said in public statements has put Theo, who is much more of the public face of the franchise compared to JH or Werner, in positions where he has to do non-explicit damage control.

The Yankess aside, do other organizations have as part of their executive make-up "the bad cop"?

[Rudy Pemberton]

Wasn't the farm system supposedly in better shape in 98 than it is now?

As for Matt Murton, how good was that return? Looks pretty crappy to me. And how much of his development is attributable to the Cubs (if we are crediting Theo for Lester, after all).

The Sox farm system is surely in better shape than it was in '01. The question is whether that matters.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 12 October 2005 - 01:52 PM.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

The Sox farm system is surely in better shape than it was in '01. The question is whether that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course it matters.

The progress of the farm system might not please the instant-gratification people here, because it needs to be a 10-year committment, not a 2-year commitment. Duquette got good reviews for his early commitment to the farm system, but he gave up on it because he (or the fans, or his bosses) wanted a quicker payoff than a good farm system provides.

A farm system is more than just making good draft picks. The fact that someone else might have signed I didn't know that Jon Lester's name does not contain an H makes no difference to me. Getting I didn't know that Jon Lester's name does not contain an H from contract signing to the major leagues is what makes a good farm system. If I didn't know that Jon Lester's name does not contain an H becomes a good pitcher, the current farm system gets 80% of the credit AFAIC.