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St. Louis/Houston NLCS Thread


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#101 fox13weather

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:49 PM

It's like a goddamn morgue in there.  Sounds like Tropicana Field on a Tuesday in May with the Royals in town.

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Sounds like the Trop tonight.

#102 Alacoldart

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:49 PM

The Donnie Moore comparison is so aprepo.  Someone should take away Lidge's shoelaces and ties tonight.

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Lidge made a terrible pitch, but this one's on Garner for not calling for the IBB to Pujols. You can't tell me he was more afraid of Reggie Sanders than Pujols. Bad managing and a deserved loss for that reason alone.

I have a bad feeling about this series. This kind of loss can stick with a team. One out away...unbelievable. Garner should be fired if they lose this series. That non-move was, I'm sorry, Grady-esque.

#103 gaelgirl


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:50 PM

Absolutely.  That hit wasn't just big.  That hit was Papi-sized.

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It's a hit like that that turns a good post-season game into a classic post-season game. I don't think this was the best sort of classic (the errors alone seriously detract from the quality), but that was a classic, career-defining hit. If the Cards go on to win this series, it becomes even bigger.

#104 Gambler7

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:51 PM

"Lidge made a terrible pitch, but this one's on Garner for not calling for the IBB to Pujols. You can't tell me he was more afraid of Reggie Sanders than Pujols. Bad managing and a deserved loss for that reason alone."

Pujols or not, you walk him and you put the tying run in scoring position where a base hit ties the game. He would be killed for that.

It's on Lidge for giving up a hit to Eckstein and walking Edmonds before even giving up that absolute bomb to Pujols

#105 Alacoldart

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:52 PM

How many times did Cards fan say this year "Boy, I miss Renteria"?

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I wish they had kept him, so we could have had Cabrera, and Eckstein would have stayed in Anaheim. Because Renteria grounds out on the first pitch against Lidge.

I still can't believe that happened. Just stunning. Awful managing, just awful. Even worse pitch selection. Everything should have been away from Pujols after he swung over the slider. Lidge got too anxious and overthrew too much. If they have a lead with 2 outs in Game 6 or Game 7, Garner and Ausmus should go out there and tell him to pitch like the bases are loaded.

#106 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:53 PM

I'm pretty overwhelmed by the number of times this sport produces tragic losses.
I wonder whether or not the Astros can recover from this.
Time for the main board to begin to be flooded with the Pujols for Shoppach, Hanley Ramirez, and a player to be named later suggestions.

#107 Senorec

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:53 PM

Lidge made a terrible pitch, but this one's on Garner for not calling for the IBB to Pujols.  You can't tell me he was more afraid of Reggie Sanders than Pujols.  Bad managing and a deserved loss for that reason alone.

I have a bad feeling about this series.  This kind of loss can stick with a team.  One out away...unbelievable.  Garner should be fired if they lose this series.  That non-move was, I'm sorry, Grady-esque.

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I really dont think this will linger with this team. They have Oswalt and Clemens lined up, they still have to be pretty confident about there chances. If Oswalt comes out and mows down a few cards in the first couple of innings I think they will be fine. But, Lidge, i would worried about him going BH Kim ala 2001.

#108 redsoxjamie


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:53 PM

It's a hit like that that turns a good post-season game into a classic post-season game. I don't think this was the best sort of classic (the errors alone seriously detract from the quality), but that was a classic, career-defining hit. If the Cards go on to win this series, it becomes even bigger.

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Yep. I was about to post something, assuming the Astros won, about how these were two of the most boring CS's I'd seen in a while (exempting the White Sox starting pitching). I know longer feel that way.

#109 gaelgirl


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:54 PM

I have a bad feeling about this series.  This kind of loss can stick with a team.  One out away...unbelievable.  Garner should be fired if they lose this series.  That non-move was, I'm sorry, Grady-esque.

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I know that bad feeling. It's hard to shake.

However, the Astros have more than a very good chance at winning this series. Don't dispair just yet. I would wait and see what happens in the next game before getting worried.

#110 scotian1


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:54 PM

Well you couldn't walk Pujols as that would have put the tying run on second.
It will be interesting to see if the Astros can recover from this because everyone including Fox gave it to the Astros. Why they even had given Berkman the Player of The Game! It is hard to deny the importance of power!

#111 Paradigm


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:54 PM

I would have loved to hear Trupiano call that homer. He would have had an honest-to-goodness heart attack.

#112 Alacoldart

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:55 PM

Pujols or not, you walk him and you put the tying run in scoring position where a base hit ties the game. He would be killed for that.

It's on Lidge for giving up a hit to Eckstein and walking Edmonds before even giving up that absolute bomb to Pujols

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No, because Reggie Sanders was nowhere close to getting a hit off of Lidge. Walk Pujols and let Sanders beat you. If you give Pujols a chance, this is what happens. Sanders has a bad back and has absolutely disappeared in this series since Game 1. He probably Ks or grounds out. An IBB is the smart, safe call. You sure as hell don't challenge the best hitter in the National League with a chance to tie the game or better.

#113 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:55 PM

Lidge made a terrible pitch, but this one's on Garner for not calling for the IBB to Pujols. You can't tell me he was more afraid of Reggie Sanders than Pujols. Bad managing and a deserved loss for that reason alone.


No fucking way. Lidge is a STUD. He is paid to get guys like Pujols out. He blew it. Big time. Its not the managers fault, the umps, the fans......nothing. He will always be remembered for that single pitch, and unless he is missing a brain in his head he realizes this. He's the modern day Donnie Moore. Period.

Edited by Rocco Graziosa, 17 October 2005 - 10:56 PM.


#114 LateRally

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:55 PM

Why they even had given Berkman the Player of The Game!

Good point. Friggin' Fox morons.

#115 jacklamabe65


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:56 PM

Well, Zup, there is another example of your "terrible loss theory" in action. That's as bad a loss as you can experience.

Why am I smiling? :)

Go Cards!

Edited by jacklamabe65, 17 October 2005 - 10:57 PM.


#116 Sullysox

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:56 PM

Game 5, a strike away, 3-1 series lead at home...only to serve up the go-ahead HR.

As someone on BTF pointed out, shades of Donnie Moore, no?

#117 jacklamabe65


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:57 PM

I would have loved to hear Trupiano call that homer. He would have had an honest-to-goodness heart attack.


:) :( :) :) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

#118 Alacoldart

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:58 PM

Well you couldn't walk Pujols as that would have put the tying run on second.
  It will be interesting to see if the Astros can recover from this because everyone including Fox gave it to the Astros. Why they even had given Berkman the Player of The Game! It is hard to deny the importance of power!

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Putting the tying run on second only matters if the guy at the plate has an honest shot of driving him in. But, fine, if you don't do that, you can't give Pujols anything to hit. That was a mistake from Ausmus AND Lidge.

This bad feeling won't go away until they get the 27th out with a lead. And Adam Everett needs to start delivering with RISP. If he had done his job earlier in the game, they're playing extras.

#119 Spacemans Bong


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:59 PM

This means Busch Stadium will see at least one more ballgame.

By the way, If Monday Night Football outrated this game, I will officially hate America.

#120 Alacoldart

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:01 PM

No fucking way.  Lidge is a STUD.  He is paid to get guys like Pujols out.  He blew it.  Big time.  Its not the managers fault, the umps, the fans......nothing.  He will always be remembered for that single pitch, and unless he is missing a  brain in his head he realizes this.  He's the modern day  Donnie Moore.  Period.

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A STUD that throws fastballs in the upper '90's. The harder it comes in....

The pitch selection for that AB was putrid, but I still think an IBB would have worked. You don't take chances like that in the postseason. It's not like you can shake that loss off and say, "Hey, we still have a lead in the Wild Card race!" You put Pujols on and pitch to Sanders. Or, if you want to show off a set of brass ones, you pitch to Pujols, but give him NOTHING over the heart of the plate or inside. If he pokes one into right, it's one run, since Edmonds hardly runs fast. I would have gone to the slider again and again, moving farther and farther away from the strike zone.

#121 LateRally

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:01 PM

But, Lidge, i would worried about him going BH Kim ala 2001.

You mean the way he went 8-3 with 36 saves and a 2.04 ERA the following year? And the way he was instrumental in helping the Sox reach the playoffs the year after that? Yeah, I can see Lidge doing something similar for the Astros.

#122 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:02 PM

This means Busch Stadium will see at least one more ballgame.

By the way, If Monday Night Football outrated this game, I will officially hate America.


I do NOT want turn this thread into an NFL/MLB ratings war, but the Indy St. Louis game will almost double the ratings of the NLCS. I will save the arguement as to why for the appropritate thread, but I just thought I would let you know.

#123 Sullysox

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:02 PM

I love the Kim myths...

They never get old.

#124 Mourning Woodward Jr

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:03 PM

To paraphrase the immortal Pippy Pinstripes circa 10/18/04:

Big f#$%in deal. Astros in 6.

OK, I'm kidding. Sort of, I guess, maybe. It's hard to feel confident about it now, but I'll stick with my prediction for the 'Stros. Think the '01 Diamondbacks, who rallied back from Game 4 and Game 5 "stomach punch" games and sealed the deal anyway.

And yes, I know the DBacks played Games 6 and 7 at home, but they trailed 3-2 after the first five. Houston still leads the series, and will start an ace in Game 6 (and Game 7, if necessary).

And to all the SOSHers, I wish you a happy first anniversary of Game 4 of the ALCS, when our baseball worlds began to spin in the opposite direction.

#125 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:05 PM

You mean the way he went 8-3 with 36 saves and a 2.04 ERA the following year? And the way he was instrumental in helping the Sox reach the playoffs the year after that? Yeah, I can see Lidge doing something similar for the Astros.


Wow, gonna hold the Kim torch til the very end huh? Kim was insane. His teamates hated him, he refused to pich in the playoffs for those same Sox, and then his career went into the toilet. He was insane when he gave up the gopher balls in NY and he's insane now.

#126 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:06 PM

It was a terrible pitch. That is all. Terrible. A hanging slider. Prblem maybe is tht Lidge goes to slider about 75% of the time when ahead in the count.

Wow, he crushed that pitch. To be honest, Lidge has been far from dominant for awhile now (since the last week of the regular season).

#127 Sullysox

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:08 PM

As a starter this season, Kim had a 4.37 ERA for Colorado. In other words, he probably would have been Boston's best starter. But keep waging the character war...

#128 LateRally

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:09 PM

Wow, gonna hold the Kim torch til the very end huh? Kim was insane.  His teamates hated him, he refused to pich in the playoffs for those same Sox, and then his career went into the toilet.  He was insane when he gave up the gopher balls in NY and he's insane now.

Hey, relax. All I was doing was clearing the misconception that Kim lost it or was a basketcase after '01. This is not a commentary on how he ended his Sox career. That horse is dead, buried, and decomposed. Don't go looking to beat it.

#129 fox13weather

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:12 PM

As a starter this season, Kim had a 4.37 ERA for Colorado.  In other words, he probably would have been Boston's best starter.  But keep waging the character war...

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a 4.37 ERA in Colorado is a run or 2 lower at sea level. Ask Chacon.

#130 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:13 PM

Hey, relax. All I was doing was clearing the misconception that Kim lost it or was a basketcase after '01. This is not a commentary on how he ended his Sox career. That horse is dead, buried, and decomposed. Don't go looking to beat it.


Fair enough. My bad.

#131 502 to Right


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:14 PM

Kim had a 5.34 ERA on the road, FWIW.

#132 epraz


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:19 PM

No fucking way.  Lidge is a STUD.  He is paid to get guys like Pujols out.  He blew it.  Big time.  Its not the managers fault, the umps, the fans......nothing.  He will always be remembered for that single pitch, and unless he is missing a  brain in his head he realizes this.  He's the modern day  Donnie Moore.  Period.

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So Lidge being a "STUD" exempts Garner from making any coaching decisions? OK.

#133 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:22 PM

This game just highlights in my mind the reasons why the Bobby Thompson home run was such a life changer for so many people and is considered by most people to be the most dramatic home run in the history of baseball.

Like tonight's it came in the last of the ninth inning, with 2 men on base to overcome a two run deficit. ( I think with only one out, though)

But unlike tonights's

1. It ended the series. The Giants went to the World Series. No more chances for the Dodgers.
2. It ended an amazing pennant race, one in which the Giants erased a gigantic Dodger lead (probably with the help of some cheating, apparently)
3. it occurred between two teams that had a rivalry that was Yankee/Red Sox like
in intensity.

I'm really glad that I was still 2 or 3 years away from being a real baseball fan. I was only 4 years old. But my father never stopped talking about it----always referred to it as one of the worst moments of his life. Next time you watch film of it and see everybody running around and screaming, and hear Russ Hodges with "The Giants win the pennant, the Giants win the pennant They're going crazy!!! The Giants win the pennant" check out the crowd and take a look at the guys whose heads are simply buried in their hands.

Edited by Zupcic Fan, 17 October 2005 - 11:23 PM.


#134 502 to Right


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:24 PM

No fucking way.  Lidge is a STUD.  He is paid to get guys like Pujols out.  He blew it.  Big time.  Its not the managers fault, the umps, the fans......nothing.  He will always be remembered for that single pitch, and unless he is missing a  brain in his head he realizes this.  He's the modern day  Donnie Moore.  Period.

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You need to mellow out a little, Rocco. He's the modern day Donnie Moore? Let's see what the Astros do in the next two games before you such proclamations.

#135 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:24 PM

So Lidge being a "STUD" exempts Garner from making any coaching decisions? OK.


Lidge is paid to get guys like Puljos out. Not walk him to put the winning run on base. Good god man, are you actually saying that the fucking MANAGER is at fault here? At what point do you EVER blame the players? The manager had no idea Lidge was the white Donnie Moore.

#136 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:29 PM

You need to mellow out a little, Rocco. He's the modern day Donnie Moore? Let's see what the Astros do in the next two games before you such proclamations.


Nah, I love failure on a grand stage. (I LOVED that spelling BEE kid that fainted under the pressure of the big word) I love when a guy fucks up so bad that there is a good chance it might be legend. In fact I might love that more than clutch moments. Lidge fucked this up bad. I find that awesome. Almost as awesome as Donnie Moore.......who KILLED himself after such a screwup.

#137 Remagellan

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:40 PM

This game just highlights in my mind the reasons why the Bobby Thompson home run was such a life changer for so many people and is considered by most people to be the most dramatic home run in the history of baseball.

Like tonight's it came in the last of the ninth inning, with 2 men on base to overcome a two run deficit. ( I think with only one out, though)

But unlike tonights's

1. It ended the series. The Giants went to the World Series. No more chances for the Dodgers.
2. It ended an amazing pennant race, one in which the Giants erased a gigantic Dodger lead (probably with the help of some cheating, apparently)
3. it occurred between two teams that had a rivalry that was Yankee/Red Sox like
in intensity.

I'm really glad that I was still 2 or 3 years away from being a real baseball fan. I was only 4 years old.  But my father never stopped talking about it----always referred to it as one of the worst moments of his life.  Next time you watch film of it and see everybody running around and screaming, and hear Russ Hodges with "The Giants win the pennant, the Giants win the pennant They're going crazy!!! The Giants win the pennant"  check out the crowd and take a look at the guys whose heads are simply buried in their hands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In these moments, I always think of Thomas Hill, the Duke player whom the camera flashed to after Laettner's amazing shot to beat Kentucky in the 1992 Regional Finals in Philly. Hill had his hands on his head, tears in his eyes, clearly mouthing over and over again, "I don't believe it! I don't believe it!"

One of my best friends is a Cards fan. We exchanging e-mails earlier today--his pessimistic, mine hopeful, full of sentiments like "after last season, I firmly believe that anything is possible". I called him after Pujols home run, and serenaded him and his wife with a brief, awful verse of "Don't Stop Believing", but he breathlessly told me that he had to call me back. He was still hyper-ventilating after that great moment. When he called me back, after Izzy had secured a trip back to St. Louis for Game 6, the first thing I said to him was "Isn't it wonderfully stupid that this stuff still means so much to us?"

This is a great game we follow.

#138 onesoxyladee


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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:57 PM

So Lidge being a "STUD" exempts Garner from making any coaching decisions?  OK.

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Any? No...but in this case? Yeah, I would say it does. Obviously, a manager's decision has everything to do with who is on the mound. You never argued that he should have intentionally walked Pujols, but others have, so to that I say -- Pujols was 1-8 against Lidge with a single. Small sample, I suppose, but he certainly hasn't crushed him. Add those numbers to the fact that you would be putting the tying run in scoring position, with a 3-1 lead in the series. That would be nuts - a single ties the game? No thanks, I'll take my chances with a great closer and a great hitter. It didn't work out. Fine. Astros have to win one of the next two.

With two strikes and two outs, the little shit Eckstein, about the last guy I want up in that situation, finds the hole between third and short...a ridiculous walk to Edmonds, who was merely the tying run (need to go after him - 1/12 against Lidge with a single)...and then a flat slider to one of the best right-handed hitters in the game. I can't see faulting the manager there. A very good closer was too careful with one guy, and made one mistake to the other. Crushing loss, but let's not hang this one on Garner.

#139 Eric Van


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:02 AM

I've been rooting for the Astros, but when Pujols came up, I told my roommate, "I wouldn't mind if he hit a HR here, because it would be so dramatic."

From 1979 to 1990, home teams had a 2-run lead with 2 outs and no one on in the 9th 1813 times, and won 1797 of the games -- 99.12%. (At no point in the 9th of the Donnie Moore game were the odds against the Sox that steep.)

However, with David Eckstein up and behind 1-2 (.298 OBP this year after getting into that count; not sure if that's better or worse than average) to Brad Lidge (.132 OBP allowed after getting ahead 1-2), the odds for the visitors are quite a bit worse than 0.88% (even with Edmonds and Pujols the next two hitters). Unbelievable.

#140 Hobson's Choice

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:10 AM

Nah, I love failure on a grand stage. (I LOVED that spelling BEE kid that fainted under the pressure of the big word)  I love when a guy fucks up so bad that there is a good chance it might be legend.  In fact I might love that more than clutch moments.  Lidge fucked this up bad.  I find that awesome.  Almost as awesome as Donnie Moore.......who KILLED himself after such a screwup.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me get this straight; you watch sports because you want to see people fail... so how do you feel about Tedy Bruschi? Are you rooting for him to fail?

Donnie Moore was a nutcase - bipolar with major family problems. Definitely NOT awesome, Rocco. But then again, I don't think you really mean what you're saying here... but then again, maybe you do...

(edit) over-reaction on my part, in the sense that I think you're saying that while you don't start out rooting for failure, you do relish it when it happens. That just makes you mean-spirited; that's not an offense in my book!

Edited by Hobson's Choice, 18 October 2005 - 12:14 AM.


#141 Senorec

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:19 AM

You mean the way he went 8-3 with 36 saves and a 2.04 ERA the following year?  And the way he was instrumental in helping the Sox reach the playoffs the year after that?  Yeah, I can see Lidge doing something similar for the Astros.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


i was referring to blowing the very next game.

but yes i do agree with you people seem to forget that the main reason the sox were able to make the postseason in 2003 was due to Kim stabilizing the bullpen

#142 502 to Right


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:34 AM

To anyone who thinks this somehow was Phil Garner's fault for not ordering an IBB against Pujols--you're wrong. You don't walk the tying run into scoring position, period. Brad Lidge is one of the best relievers in the game and he should have been pitching to get an out.

If there were runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1st open you would have a point and you would have seen an IBB in that situation.

Phil Garner gets no blame here.

#143 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:03 AM

"Isn't it wonderfully stupid that this stuff still means so much to us?"


Great line

#144 Devizier


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:14 AM

As a starter this season, Kim had a 4.37 ERA for Colorado.  In other words, he probably would have been Boston's best starter.  But keep waging the character war...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is true. And its possible that he may have performed comparably well in Boston, had he remained here this season. I won't bother to speculate on the possibility. What is also true, however, is that Kim, by and large, was a massive dissapointment for his time in Boston, and that there were numerous allegations (true or not) in the local media regarding his mercurial nature.

#145 soxfaninyankeeland


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:37 AM

Interesting dichotomy on the Astro bench with 2 outs and the bases empty. 18 year veteran Craig Biggio was motionless and expressionless, taking a wait-and-see attitude, while relative youngster Brandon Backe was jumping up and down in full "We're going to the World Series!" mode.

#146 PT Sox Fan

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:12 AM

Why they even had given Berkman the Player of The Game!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I immediately thought of Bruce Hurst--circa 1986.

The biggest crime was walking Edmonds. There's no way Pujols should have even been allowed to come to the plate.

#147 Zupcic Fan


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:47 AM

Just quickly on the walking Pujols debate. Certainly if it were Barry Bonds in that same situation, there are managers who both would and have walked him. Then the question becomes whether or not Pujols is in that league or whether or not the guy hitting behind him is more or less likely to tie or win the game than the guy hitting behind Bonds.

Looking at it that way, at least to me, it clearly is a decision where you could argue either side pretty strongly and there is no clearcut right or wrong. In eaither case, if Garner goes the other way and ends up being wrong, he is going to take a hit from somebody. Certainly you don't want to walk the tying run to second base----but then again it's Pujols. How could there be a definitive right or wrong to this one?

#148 Carroll Hardy


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:47 AM

"The biggest crime was walking Edmonds."


In this situation, a walk is just as good as a HR.

Sincerely,

Tim McCarver

Edited by Carroll Hardy, 18 October 2005 - 06:49 AM.


#149 NYCSox


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:32 AM

To anyone who thinks this somehow was Phil Garner's fault for not ordering an IBB against Pujols--you're wrong.  You don't walk the tying run into scoring position, period.  Brad Lidge is one of the best relievers in the game and he should have been pitching to get an out.

If there were runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1st open you would have a point and you would have seen an IBB in that situation.

Phil Garner gets no blame here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Agreed. If you walk him and Sanders hits a bleeder or blooper to tie the game then Garner gets killed for putting the tying runs in scoring position. Too bad he didn't throw a WP to move the runners to second and third. Then you probably would have seen the IBB to Pujols even if he was the go ahead run.

I did have the same Donnie Moore flashback after the HR. It's going to be an uphill climb now for the Stros even with Oswalt and Clemens pitching.

#150 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:33 AM

Nah, I love failure on a grand stage. (I LOVED that spelling BEE kid that fainted under the pressure of the big word)  I love when a guy fucks up so bad that there is a good chance it might be legend.  In fact I might love that more than clutch moments.  Lidge fucked this up bad.  I find that awesome.  Almost as awesome as Donnie Moore.......who KILLED himself after such a screwup.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, much better to see that than actually enjoying when players have success on the big stage. :)

No offense, but you're a strange guy, Rocco. I have no idea what makes you tick if you enjoy watching massive failure on a big stage.

These comparisons to Donnie Moore are effing ridiculous. Moore has serious personality and personal problems before, during, and after the 1986 playoffs. He did not kill himself because he gave up Henderson's home run, he killed himself because his marriage was falling apart and because he suffered from manic depression.

Edited by Smiling Joe Hesketh, 18 October 2005 - 07:34 AM.