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The Practical Re-Tooling Thread


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#1 ragnarok725

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:21 AM

The Blow it Up thread has gotten a little ridiculous, so I thought I might try to redirect the conversation a little bit, because despite the silly fantasy scenarios being thrown around, there is a legitimate possibility that the best course of action for this team is indeed a 1-year re-tooling period. Let me say from the outset that I don't think that means conceding the season. Lots of teams have been able to win with overachieving and young players stepping up, and Boston could be no different. That said, this approach does, obviously, hurt our chances of winning the World Series in 2006. But the premise is that, if you want to look at the next 5 years, taking a larger hit now might increase the chance enough in subsequent years to make the lessening of the % for next year worth it.

All that said, let's examine the possibilities the Sox have to re-tool their roster next year.

1) First and most obvious is a potential trade of Manny Ramirez. It could infuse us with at least a little young talent and free up a ton of space for other potential moves. Now I'm not one that believes we're going to get too much of value for Manny - he's going to be 34 in May of 2006 and has declined slightly each of the last three years. Manny Ramirez is still an EXTRAORDINARY hitter. But he's a huge liability in the field and takes up a huge chunk of payroll and it's possible he could become a very large value sink in the last year or two of his deal. So if the goal is to win as many WS as we can over the next 5 year span, it might be prudent to see what we can get for him. The Mets will be willing to go to the table with us. New stadium soon, new TV station, and Minaya wants to make that splash. They have a limited window with Pedro and the pitching staff. They certainly don't need Manny, but I think they want him, and there's nobody out there either on the free agent market or on the trade market that can make the kind of impact Manny can. If the Sox need to package money to get talent in return, package money that all goes towards the 2006 salary, so that they are completely free of Manny's contract come the 2006 off-season. In an ideal world we would wind up with a package of Aaron Heilman and Lastings Milledge for the combination of Manny Ramirez, cash (5M, all up front?) and a couple of our B-level prospects (Moss and Shoppach perhaps). That could be a stretch, but it would fill our needs. Milledge is the guy they really need to target - getting a stop-gap CF and waiting for Milledge is the ideal kind of move in this re-tooling phase. If you can't get a package with this kind of value though, it's probably not worth trading Manny. You need talent in return, not just salary relief. The A-level players just aren't hitting the free agent market anymore, so you need talent in return for talent when you make these kinds of deals.

2) Letting Damon go is key, it would seem. It's hard to identify a real declining pattern in his stats, but one thing that I would put forth is that it's looking like Johnny's 2004 was a career year. His SLG and OBP were the best they'd been since 2000 in KC, and he's now on the wrong side of 32 as a slap-hitting speedster come November. It is likely that we're never going to see a repeat of his 2004 campaign. If the question of whether we should sign Johnny Damon was going to come up next year or the year after that, I'd probably be all for it if he was still 31. But this team is getting very old at many places, and adding more decline and injury risk is just not prudent. Injuries and decline, as we saw this year, will kill a team just as easily as a lower level of production will. So I'd let Johnny go unless he'll sign something like 3/30 or 4/36 - something where you'd be getting really good value from him. To replace him you need a stop-gap. Dave Roberts and his .282 EQA (to Damon's .280) seems like an ideal solution - especially given his local cult status. He'd come pretty cheap and, if we could snag Milledge in a Manny deal, would be the perfect bridge to a younger player. If we can't get a hold of Milledge, maybe you look at someone a bit more permanent - but still young and cost-effective (trade for Brady Clark, or taking a run at Juan Pierre are both tempting options).

3) Explore the trade market and dangle our veterans. Don't trade away every single player with more than a X salary for pennies on the dollar, but examine the market and figure out where we might be able to pick up some value (read: younger and cheaper, although perhaps less talented or unproven) in a trade. Guys I would look to dangle are Trot Nixon, Bronson Arroyo, and David Wells. They all have pretty marginal value right now, but I think we can still get something for each of them. Trot is an injury risk and a liability against lefties, but he's a damn good hitter when healthy. It was 2 years ago he posted that .974 OPS, but he's still only 32, and he's on a pretty reasonable contract (2 more years at 6.5M/year). I think there will be a few organizations out there willing to take the risk in order to try to make a run. Trot also has such a great dirt dog reputation that I think a lot of teams might value. Arroyo still has a ton of value, I think. Despite the declining peripherals, he's managed to post a couple seasons with ERAs of 4.03 and 4.51. To a lot of teams that's very respectable. Were he in the NL, I think he could post a mid-3s ERA and be a #3 or a bad team's #2. He has value. But he won't once his peripherals come back to bite him. Re-tooling years are when you sell high on your assets, and Bronson is one player you need to approach in that manner. Wells I think will be the hardest to deal. If you can find somewhere he wants to go, he's still only on a $4M deal with $5M in incentives I think (which he will likely earn if he actually performs - in which case he's worth it anyway). There are plenty of teams willing to take 1-year rentals like that in exchange for a B-level prospect. It'd be a good way to hoard some cash if they can find somewhere Wells would be willing to go (I know he doesn't have a no-trade, but nobody is going to trade for someone they know is just going to retire - it's like the old man's Gary Sheffield weapon). We've got to accept that Renteria and Clement aren't going anywhere just yet. It'd be selling low on both of them, and they're both just bad contracts that nobody wants at this point. We're going to have to stick it out a little longer. If we want to eat some salary when they only have 1 or 2 years left on their deals (like the other guys we're mentioning here), then that might happen. But not this off-season.

4) Trust the youth movement. Start the season with Papelbon in the rotation, Hansen and Delcarmen in the bullpen, and Youkilis and Pedroia starting in the infield. Resign Graffanino to maybe start the season as the 2B and yield the position by June. Keep him around as a super-sub the rest of the year - he seems well suited to the position. The youths coming through the system need some time to get broken in. Hopefully Sanchez and Lester show themselves ready by July or August and are given bullpen jobs, and potentially some spot starts here and there. Meredith and EMart can be given relief jobs as their progress merits as well. This all sounds crazy, depending on the kids for big chunks of production, especially in the pitching staff. But it has worked in the past for various teams - the Braves this year not being hte first. We can still be competitive in 2006 doing this. These kids are talented. But we need to break them in sometime, and next year is as good a time as any.

That's the plan. Lots of youth, stop-gap starters, and lots of money saved. This whole plan is really only worth it if they plan on going above the luxury tax threshold in the coming years - otherwise the money saved is just money pocketed, and the team never winds up improving more than the differenece in experience for the youth. So combine this re-tooling phase with some very free spending and dealing in the 2007 and 2008 off-seasons, and I think you have a POTENTIAL recipe for success. There are no guarantees, then again are there ever? It's possible that this is not the most prudent solution if you're trying to win as many WS as you can over the next 5 years. But then again maybe it is. The biggest problem I see is contingency. Re-tooling doesn't really work if it's half-assed, so they would need to execute all of these steps, or at least some reasonable alternatives, in order to be successful. And that's a lot of things that need to fall into place in terms of trades and free agent signings. But anyway, that's the idea. The practical (I think) way to re-tool this team - re-build into a younger, cheaper, and more talented nucleus, with the intention of adding on parts to create a powerhouse in 2006 and beyond. Thoughts? Questions? Flames?

Edited by ragnarok725, 10 October 2005 - 12:34 AM.


#2 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:25 AM

Well argued.

In regard to Boomer, isn't San Diego the obvious target?

#3 ragnarok725

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:30 AM

Well argued.

In regard to Boomer, isn't San Diego the obvious target?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say yeah - but if they didn't offer him the contract that Boston did last offseason, what's changed? He's just a year older and that much more likely to decline or get injured. Although it would be just 1 year instead of two. It's certainly possible though.

#4 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:32 AM

Supposedly it was more that SD dragged their feet in offering him a deal he liked, and then Boston swooped in with a "take it or leave it" kind of offer which he took. SD reportedly tried to get back in, but Wells had already committed to Boston.

That's just media reports, it's a year later, and it's hard to know. But their pitching certainly isn't any better now than it was then, either.

#5 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 04:16 AM

If I read you post correctly you are proposing....

Players Leaving
Manny Ramirez and 5M in cash
Brandon Moss
Kelly Shoppach
David Wells
Trot Nixon
Bronson Arroyo
Johnny Damon

Players Coming
Aaron Heilman
Lastings Milledge
Low-level Propects from SD
High Level Pospect for Johnny Damon

Thats fine for beginners. Given your reasonable assumption that the Sox should trade Trot Nixon and Bronson Arroyo, you failed to find a trading partner and you failed to tell us what you hope to get in return.

What is your plan for the following players not under contract?
Mike Stanton, Tony Graffanino, Kevin Millar, Dave Berg, Bill Mueller, Matt Mantei, Mike Myers, Roberto Petagine, and Mike Timlin.

Once you tell us what you hope to get in return, please give us your opening day roster.

I for one kept Timlin and Arroyo, but would make them available at trading deadline in hopes of picking up move value from a desparate club seeking the post-season than letting them go now. Also, I decided to trade Belli and keep Shoppach to have a youthful option to test as back-up to Tek now and as a postntial replacement later,but I certaiinly would part with him if it got us Milledge.

#6 Charley Weir

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 06:43 AM

he's a huge liability in the field


Derek Jeter thought that, too. How does his face look?

Egg-ie, my man egg-ie.

If we didn't have Papi hovering in MVP territory, you would have a MUCH higher opinion of Manny. Trust me.

Manny "Declined"? You gotta have a magnifying glass to cherry-pick stats to prove that.

All we need is pitching. Jonathan P may be ready next year, maybe not. I'd like to hold 'em until we see what we have in Wade Miller and Matt Mantei. Inexpensive, and potentially very, very good.

I predict Arroyo will break out next year.

I predict Boomer likes having people count on him.

I predict Matt Clement will come to Ft Myers a little beefier, and have a better 2nd half

I predict the Yankees will NOT win the 2006 AL East .

I predict it's 112 days until P&C report.


Damn, the Patriots s*ck this year - time to blow that team up!

#7 redsox1918

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 06:47 AM

I'm afraid if the Sox dangle Trot or Bronson, the conversation will lead to something like this:

"Yeah,...we're interested in Bronson and Trot, but we're more interested in some of your prized prospects..."

I just don't see the Sox getting anything of value in a trade unless Theo deals some of the kids.

#8 Carroll Hardy

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 07:33 AM

Under the current circumstances, trading Manny and losing Damon is not practical re-tooling, IMO. It will not create a powerhouse in 2006.

I would even speculate that the pressure on the front office caused by ownership's continued, and persistent, insistence on trading Manny, in the absence of any realistic return, may well be at the core of the inability to re-sign the GM.

Dan Duquette was once considered a boy genius himself. I'm sure that's not lost on Theo. "The guy who broke the curse :D " would quickly become "The guy who traded HOFer Manny Ramirez for a bag of baseballs".

Practical re-tooling starts with a re-structuring of Manny's contract. Keeping Manny and David Ortiz together is not the problem; they're part of the solution.

Edited by Carroll Hardy, 10 October 2005 - 07:36 AM.


#9 redsox1918

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 07:41 AM

Practical re-tooling starts with a re-structuring of Manny's contract. Keeping Manny and David Ortiz together is not the problem; they're part of the solution.


You can front load, or back end load the contract, but the luxury tax takes a yearly average of the total contract. Also, the MLBPA will be all along the watchtower on this....

We are so handcuffed here....

#10 67WasBest


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 07:43 AM

Some may find the Blow it up thread ridiculous, but at least there were rosters presented there that would allow us to compete next year and time was taken to research trading partners. This looks more like a vanilla recap of what is clearly known information.

From what I see here you've traded away Manny, let Damon walk and only offered Brady Clark and kids as a solution for the 2006 roster. Lot's of kids for the future, but are we just throwing the towel in on 2006? You've offered obvious trade candidates, but little in the way of solutions.

Who starts for us under your suggestion at 1B, LF and where is the money coming from to sign these players? Keep in mind we have $121M committed right now with Manny on the roster. $102M if Manny is traded.
With Manny gone, who protects Ortiz?
Are we just going to use kids to upgrade our pitching staff? No outside help?
What about the Closer role? Is a possibly healthy Foulke enough to put your mind at ease in light of the trading difficulties encountered this season?

#11 JimMonaghan

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 07:51 AM

I'm willing to deal Manny IF the Red Sox can get something close to equal value in return. Would Carlos Beltran (since the Mets appear to be a likely target for a deal) fit the bill?

Five years for Damon is probably too much. But I'm willing to bet that the Yankees offer that to him. How badly do you NOT want to see Damon in the Bronx next season?

I'd also like to see the team find a way to keep Olerud. He can still hit, he plays terrific defense, and if indeed the front office is looking for the team to lose the "idiot" label, he's one of the guys to help you do that.

Oh, and the Sox might want to make sure Theo sticks around a while longer.

#12 Marbleheader


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:00 AM

I'm willing to deal Manny IF the Red Sox can get something close to equal value in return.  Would Carlos Beltran (since the Mets appear to be a likely target for a deal) fit the bill?

Five years for Damon is probably too much.  But I'm willing to bet that the Yankees offer that to him.  How badly do you NOT want to see Damon in the Bronx next season?

I'd also like to see the team find a way to keep Olerud.  He can still hit, he plays terrific defense, and if indeed the front office is looking for the team to lose the "idiot" label, he's one of the guys to help you do that.

Oh, and the Sox might want to make sure Theo sticks around a while longer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Why is the assumption that Damon goes to NY, and why are people still so obsessed with the MFY? Damon has said publicly he wants to go to Anaheim if he doesn't stay in Boston, and that is a more likely landing place for him. If NY wants to offer Damon 5 years, that is a competitive advantage for the Red Sox, I don't see Damon repeating 2004 again.

I'd rather have an everyday 1st baseman than Olerud, no more platoons, please.

Equal value for Manny? Beltran is not equal value, and watching a season of this offseason sputtering, listening to the 'woe is me, where is Manny' talk as we had this year for Pedro is not something I hope to experience. Theo gave $20M to Renteria and Clement, he can't well bitch about Manny's salary putting this team at a disadvatage. Would you trade Manny for Renteria and Clement?

#13 redsox1918

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:08 AM

I'm willing to deal Manny IF the Red Sox can get something close to equal value in return.  Would Carlos Beltran (since the Mets appear to be a likely target for a deal) fit the bill?


Hey,...no posting while you're at work!! :D

If Manny forces the trade issue this off-season....

I think the Chisox could sign Konerko, then deal him here for Manny. Theo researches this deal thoroughly,...making sure Konerko wants to come to Boston, etc. I think this would be more realistic than Beltran? I know there's shortcomings with Konerko's game, but we're talking about something close to equal value for Manny.

#14 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:09 AM

I think the Chisox could sign Konerko, then deal him here for Manny.


That doesn't make any sense...why would Konerko or the ChiSox do that? If the ChiSox wanted Manny, they'd trade for him and get the Red Sox to pick up some salary, and get draft picks for Konerko. If Konerko wanted to sign with the Red Sox, he would.

#15 redsox1918

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:20 AM

That doesn't make any sense...why would Konerko or the ChiSox do that? If the ChiSox wanted Manny, they'd trade for him and get the Red Sox to pick up some salary, and get draft picks for Konerko. If Konerko wanted to sign with the Red Sox, he would.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This would depend on how badly Guillen wants Manny in a Chisox uniform. Boston can't sign Konerko and have Manny. Too much money, and two players with ball and chains on their legs. And the Chisox can't afford both either...

#16 Rico

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:37 AM

The Sox will get hosed in a Manny deal unless they put him on waivers and pray the Mets picks him up. (Chicago or worse Toronto might pick him up also.) Then it's strickly a $$ deal.

If they waive him and no one claims him, then will get really ugly.

#17 Marbleheader


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:42 AM

Chicago Sun Times:


Earlier this season, after Ramirez told Sports Illustrated that he preferred a trade from the Red Sox, members of White Sox management said Ramirez's baggage was capable of damaging team chemistry. Ramirez is the kind of high-profile, large-ego player whom general manager Ken Williams avoided when putting together this season's roster.

http://www.suntimes....pt-soxnt08.html

#18 thisyearisthe

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:43 AM

Theo has to start with the Manny situation. If Manny really wants to go, what holes can the Mets fill for us?

They have talent to deal. Maybe they can give us Mike Cameron to play center in 2006 AND Lastings Milledge to play center in 2007. Or perhaps Mike Jacobs to play first base (is he good enough defensively?).

Or maybe we take back Cliff Floyd and a pitcher. I always liked Cliff Floyd. Maybe he can stay healthy playing the short left field in Fenway.

Milledge looks really promising. It would be nice to have hope for the future in CF, and the Mets have CF locked up for 7 more years (or 5?)

Manny/Hanley/Shoppach for Floyd/Milledge/Prospect?

In any case, resolve the Manny situation, and then fill the other holes. If we get Milledge, you can't sign Damon for 4 years. Maybe in that case, you get a stop gap for a year until Milledge is ready. If we get Jacobs, maybe you don't go hard after a first baseman.

Theo's job ain't easy. I'm already looking forward to the new mix of talent that he will undoubtedly bring to the team this offseason.

#19 jp

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:55 AM

Everyone keeps bringing up the Mets as the logical trading partner for Manny. That may be, but what about the Diamondbacks given that his old agent is running the show there? I wonder if we could ever find a way to extract Carlos Quenton from them for Manny in some form or another. Of course, the Diamondbacks are in a bad financial situation but that has never stopped them in the past from spending money they don't have. :D

#20 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:07 AM

Manny and Hanley for Shawn Green and Vazquez?

#21 thisyearisthe

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:11 AM

I'd be hesitant to "throw" Hanley into any deal without getting a high talent CF prospect like Milledge in the return package.

Hanley is the future. Shawn Green's best days are likely behind him.

#22 Southpaw67

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:13 AM

Chicago Sun Times:
Earlier this season, after Ramirez told Sports Illustrated that he preferred a trade from the Red Sox, members of White Sox management said Ramirez's baggage was capable of damaging team chemistry. Ramirez is the kind of high-profile, large-ego player whom general manager Ken Williams avoided when putting together this season's roster.

http://www.suntimes....pt-soxnt08.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe I'm obtuse, but that article includes the words "volatile outfielder" and "baggage...capable of damaging team chemistry"...I guess I just don't see it. I've never thought of Manny as being a clubhouse cancer, nor does he really seem like a prima donna (he does have all of the qualifications however). Of course we're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors, but you would think that if Manny were such a huge personality problem, that someone would have griped about it by now.

Still not a valid reason to trade him away, IMHO.

#23 OttoC


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:15 AM

If I read you post correctly you are proposing....

Players Leaving
Manny Ramirez and 5M in cash
Brandon Moss
Kelly Shoppach
David Wells
Trot Nixon
Bronson Arroyo
Johnny Damon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This would mean that the Red Sox would have to replace their entire starting outfield, three players who accounted for 30.7% of the team's total bases. Not only that, but one of them is the team's lead-off hitter amd another is the team's clean-up hitter. And, don't forget that left field in Fenway takes some getting used to (say what you want about Ramirez's defense, he does have a some idea how to play the Wall) and right field at Fenway is one of baseball's toughest. We're talking about a big chore in coming close to replacing the offense without weakening the defense. Nixon might be easily replaceable, but given his salary I'm not sure he would be easily disposable. A quick look at Win Shares 2005 from Hardball Times shows that there are 14 outfielders matching Damon's Total WS, but only one beating him in Fielding WS and only one outfielder beating Ramirez's Batting WS. The oft-discussed Carlos Beltran does edge Damon in Fielding WS in center, while putting up a close Batting WS, but he's probably more expensive for a year than Damon would be.

Unless Ramirez demands that he be traded, I'd be inclined to keep him. If the club isn't in contention in 2006, then trade him. The amount of time (and money) left on his contract will have dropped, which should make him more attractive to a larger group of clubs. Besides, it would be simple to make him demand a trade: pulling him out of a game when he fails to hustle down the line or takes a nonchalant approach to a fielding opportunity should trigger that demand.

#24 Scott Cooper

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:21 AM

I for one hate the thought of losing Manny. That 3/4 combo is priceless imho.

I think that this 95 win team is still damn good and just needs a couple of tweeks to get it done in 2006.

To win a championship things have to break right, no matter how good your team is.

If Schilling was healthy....If Foulke was healthy....2005 would have been much much different.

So what do we need to do?

I would keep manny, and try to keep Damon, if the price is right.

I would let Mueller go and give Youks the 3b job full time.

Bye Bye Millar and make 1b a priority for free agency or dangle Belli and bring up Shoppach.

2b? I'm not too concerned with....bring back Graf, or someone else for short money.

RF? I dunno...if we can get better than Nixon then do it and dangle him for prospects.

2006 SP

1. Schilling (Hopefully)
2. FA?/ Becket?
3. Clement
4. Aroyo
5. Wake/Miller?/Papelbon

Closer - Foulke
SetUp - Timlin (He's still damn good)....is he under contract?

RP - Wouldn't mind seeing wake in that spot
RP - Myers
RP - Mantei
RP - Delcarmen
RP - Hanson

lineup

1B - ?
2B - Graf
SS- Renteria
3b - Youks
LF - Manny
CF - Damon
RF - Nixon/someone else
DH - Papi

#25 jp

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:21 AM

Personally, since I follow the Red Sox prospects so much I will always (probably irrationally) favor the idea of getting a great AA/AAA prospect as opposed to someone on the down side of 30 unless they are a superstar. From a production standpoint for 2006 that is probably not the right thing to do and it is much more of a risk but with higher potential upside.

Given the entire mea culpa above as context, I would be more inclined to trade Manny for a Milledge or a Quentin and probably go so far as to try trade Renteria and either bring up Hanley right away or have Pedroia play SS and then shift to 2B for Hanley when he is ready. I would also play Youks at 3B. I would then spend some of the money freed up on production at 1B and on pitching, pitching, pitching and more pitching. I don't know if there are any aces out there but we could certainly construct a great bullpen and maybe pick up a solid #3 to go with Curt, Clement, Papelbon and whoever we keep from Arroyo and Wells.

#26 yecul


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:41 AM

The infusion of young talent should make you more inclined to keep Ramirez, not less.

I totally agree with retaining Graff and working Pedoria in. He could use some more seasoning at AAA as he didn't show much after coming back from injury.

Stick Youks at 3B and be done with it.

For 1B and CF it looks like acquiring someone via trade (or perhaps someone gets waived who's going up in cost). For the OF go defense first. A RH stick who can cover RF/CF would be ideal... as always.

I don't like Cora, personally. I guess he's under contract so that probably settles it. But a superior defender and/or runner would be a better fit.

They don't need to blow it up or do massive retooling, but this should be an active offseason that does NOT involve retaining most of the players up for contract.

#27 Eddie Jurak


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:08 AM

I like this thread topic. Looking back at this year:

1. Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke, our #1 starter and #1 reliever, were largely ineffective because of injuries.
2. Until the emergence of Papelbon, the Red Sox had about 1.5 effective pitchers in their bullpen. Timlin + Myers, and later Bradford.
3. Our starting 1B and 2B shit the bed in a big way.
4. Edgar Renteria's otherwise decent year at the plate was marred by a couple of MASSIVE slumps, and some defensive problems.
5. Our starting CF was going great but suffered injuries which ruined his second half performance.
6. Trot Nixon was injured, missed about a month, and was never the same after his return.
7. For much of the year, especially down the stretch, there was no good RH platoon bat for Trot.
8. Matt Clement was lousy in the second half.
9. Jason varitek was one of the worst hitters in MLB during the month of September.

Despite all of this, the team still won 95 games. And they were only a couple of crucial clutch failures away from still being alive in the ALDS.

So... no real need to "blow it up". Here are my adjustments:

1) Rotation. My rotation plans depend in large part on the medical reports on Curt Schilling. If it turns out that Curt is in good shape, then we have our #1, and I don't make any major rotation moves. The back four (Wakefield, Arroyo, Wells, and Clement) are better than people generally give them credit for. Some of their problems this year were bad support from bullpen and defense, and the lack of a true ace. I think it's fair to say that the Sox would have won more than 95 games with a healthy Curt Schilling. I would also consider bringing Wde Miller back... but only if he signed for a cheaper, more incentive laden deal than what he took last year.

With a rotation THIS old, the Sox will obviously need guys to fill in - but they have guys who can fill in. Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Lenny DiNardo, Abe Alvarez, perhaps Charlie Zink. They should also look to sign a couple of Jeremi Gonzalez types to AAA deals. Papelbon, for example, might end the season in the rotation.

Obviously, the story is very different if there are more issues with Schilling. Then you need to find an ace. But if Schilling is back, they can go with

2) Bullpen. The Sox won 95 games with one of the worst bullpens ever. Only Timlin was consistently good all year. Mike Myers, Chad Bradford, and Jon Papelbon were the other contributors, but Papelbon was only here for a month, and Myers and Bradford are limiteds enough that adding them together gives you less than one effective pitcher.

In past years, the Sox have focused in bringing in a bunch of secondary pitchers to build their bullpen. Guys like Mendoza, Fox, Timlin, Mantei, Myers, Bradford, etc. I think this year they should go for the top guy on the market - BJ Ryan. Bringing in a top reliever is cheaper than a top starter, and the Red Sox need to sign a closer because Keith Foulke is a question mark.

If Foulke is healthy, he can take a setup/backup closer role. And, if he pitches well enough, he can always be dealt, since he'll be in the last year of his deal, and in a setup role he probably won't finish enough games to trigger his option for 2007.

The third key arm in the bullpen will be Mike Timlin on a one year deal. Offer him arbitration, and get him signed up for a year.

The last three guys in the bullpen can come from young guys in the organization. I think the key mistake the Sox have made in recent years has been to rely on "proven" veterans instead of young live arms. Of course, they didn't have so many young live arms to pick and choose from until now, so maybe it's not really a mistake. Candidates to round out the bullpen: Papelbon, Hansen, Delcarmen, DiNardo, Alvarez, Meredith, and as the year goes on, Jon Lester and maybe Charline Zink. They can also bolster that group with a few veterans (guys like Gonzalez, Harville, etc.) signed to AAA deals. The advatage to these guys is that they all have options remaining, so the Sox can mix and match until they find a group that works. When guys like Mantei and Embree suck, they have to be kept on the team until it is time to bite the bullet and get rid of them. If a guy like Delcarmen isn't ready, he can be sent down to work on stuff. Anyway, with Ryan, Foulke, and Timlin as the top three, these guys will be able to break in in relatively low pressure roles.

Anyway, that's my pitching staff plan. I will get to the rest of the team later.

#28 67WasBest


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:40 AM

2006 offers 2 pretty simple choices: (assuming Papelbon, Youklis, Pedroia, Delcarmen and Dinardo all have Boston addresses next year)

Status Quo with a new CF, 1B, and pen, possibly new closer

or

Blow it up!

Keeping Manny means we have 121M in committed salary already signed.

Keep these dollar figures in mind when making projections.

#29 redsoxstiff


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:42 AM

A 'Fan' trying to be practical...

I'd rather cut LL's throat than break up the best 3-4 combo since Ruth and Gerhig...

Leading off is the most valuable slot...I'd fill this one with Damon...Weak arm and age...If He ends up with a Tek contract ...so be it...I am not necessarily married to John tho' He is one of THE 25...If he really wants to be here ...I would make it happen...[with the implication that we still are going all out]

SS is not open...yet...Ink in, like it or not, Sr.Renteria.

Damon
Renteria
Ortiz
Ramirez
My most aggressive move in the off season...A 1B first rate, power bat...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Youklis
Nixon.............Brings a 1B mitt to camp,anyway...
I can't spell Captain Varitek's last name
Cora cum Pedroia
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reserves
Kapler
Cora/Pedroia
Mirabelli
Machado
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My gut is that Curt will not return completely...He will be really good tho'
SO I have to aquire a number one...and hope that I miss on Curt anyway...

Schilling
Mr X

Wakefield/Wells/Miller/Arroyo/Clement[one to the pen ...two to travel]

Papelbon...THE GOODS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Long relief/ocasional start........most likely Arroyo

Resign Mantei if healthy
Resign Stanton or Myers
Hansen
DiNardo
Resign Timlin
Foulke............It is trust that He recovers by Spring...Jump now and acquire a stud...Or run out the string...and really get nailed in season...

Hansen,Lester,Papelbon,Delcarmen,Di Nardo...to trade one of these would only happen in order to acquire the real goods....a young , established , first rung, arm...

Were the season to open with hitters one through five as stated above...plus I can't spell Captain Varitek's last name...I don't much care after that...

The Staff as always will be a ballbuster ,now and forever...
A perfect Curt allows for a drop to Number two...and a healthy Miller obviates the need...
A healthy Mantei will do wonders...Having Foulke in plein forme too couldn't hurt...

One housekeeping motion: If the bases are loaded ...no outs...and zero runs score...
The Trio of Miscreants must contribute $2,000 each to the Jimmy Fund...

#30 86spike


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:54 AM

The infusion of young talent should make you more inclined to keep Ramirez, not less.


Exactly.

Especially if they let Damon walk and replace him with someone cheaper than his 2005 salary (Dave Roberts or Juan Pierre, perhaps?).

Although I would be pretty happy if they sat down with Ortiz this winter and reworked his deal so that he's paid more like what he's worth in exchange for a couple more years tacked on. So that money could go to him, too.

#31 irishkg

  • 224 posts

Posted 10 October 2005 - 10:59 AM

1. Count Wakefield as a $5.5M starting pitcher (his $4 +Mirabelli's $1.5)
Keep Mirabelli he is part of Wake's value (or plan for a decline in Wake's performance if trade Mirabelli)
Trade Shoppach

2. Forget the Manny trade for Beltran, if it just about money
Beltran comes with contract that will pay him $18.5m each year through 2011.
Manny is $20m per year through 2008.
What is the financial benefit of a longer contract for basically the same per year $s?

3. Arroyo
When everyone agrees that pitching is critical why trade Arroyo for anything other than pitching (unless it is part of a 3 corner bank shot). If he is truly "excess" at the trade deadline do the trade then

4. Continuing development for young players
With expected influx of young players ensure vets to teach/guide.
Papelbon and Timlin each spoke of teaching and learning between them. Team needs to have vets willing to do this for other new players coming up. I don't assume that all vets want to or are good at this.

Above all get Theo deal done. His value includes the integrated system to feed the team.

#32 Maalox


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:12 AM

Maybe I'm obtuse, but that article includes the words "volatile outfielder" and "baggage...capable of damaging team chemistry"...I guess I just don't see it.  I've never thought of Manny as being a clubhouse cancer, nor does he really seem like a prima donna (he does have all of the qualifications however).  Of course we're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors, but you would think that if Manny were such a huge personality problem, that someone would have griped about it by now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. I think these are stock phrases and images pulled out to deal with an odd personality whom the writer hasn't taken the time to understand. I have seen no indication that Manny Ramirez is a prima donna. Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling are prima donnas. Manny is basically just an overgrown child. I don't think he really cares much about "the team" or issues of chemistry or togetherness or team spirit. I think he wants whatever he wants at the time he wants it, not selfishly but rather obliviously to other people's needs or desires. And he changes his mind just as quickly. He thinks only about himself, but mostly because he just isn't conscious of others. I don't think he's a bad person. I don't think he has much ego at all, like a Martinez or a Schilling has tons of ego. Whereas Pedro and Curt want attention, Manny just wants to be left alone to do his own thing. He just wants to show up and play. This attitude affects other people, but whereas a prima donna knows it his attitude affects other people and doesn't care or even revels in his ability to creat a distubance, I think this doesn't even occur to Manny most of the time, My sense is that he simply cannot understand why his teammates (let alone the media or the fans) care when he shows up to the park or whether he runs out a routine ground ball.

#33 ragnarok725

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:16 AM

If I read you post correctly you are proposing....

Players Leaving
Manny Ramirez and 5M in cash
Brandon Moss
Kelly Shoppach
David Wells
Trot Nixon
Bronson Arroyo
Johnny Damon

Players Coming
Aaron Heilman
Lastings Milledge
Low-level Propects from SD
High Level Pospect for Johnny Damon

Thats fine for beginners.  Given your reasonable assumption that the Sox should trade Trot Nixon and  Bronson Arroyo, you failed to find a trading partner and you failed to tell us what you hope to get in return.

What is your plan for the following players not under contract?
Mike Stanton, Tony Graffanino, Kevin Millar, Dave Berg, Bill Mueller, Matt Mantei, Mike Myers, Roberto Petagine, and Mike Timlin.

Once you tell us what you hope to get in return, please give us your opening day roster.

I for one kept Timlin and Arroyo, but would make them available at trading deadline in hopes of picking up move value from a desparate club seeking the post-season than letting them go now. Also, I decided to trade Belli and keep Shoppach to have a youthful option to test as back-up to Tek now and as a postntial replacement later,but I certaiinly would part with him if it got us Milledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You, sir, are missing the entire point of this thread. The point of this thread is to talk about the general merits of a re-tooling philosophy - saving money and dumping players this season for a shot at having a drastically better team for the years after. How often do message board posters' fantasy trades ever come to fruition? "Presenting solutions" is just simply pulling names out of thin air and trying to reason out why such players would be traded with no factual basis. It's just silly, I think. This whole thread is supposed to be about the re-tooling philosophy, not what roto-style fantasy trades need to happen to make it work. I'll leave that to the "Blow it Up" thread.

#34 67WasBest


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:26 AM

2. Forget the Manny trade for Beltran, if it just about money
Beltran comes with contract that will pay him $18.5m each year through 2011.
Manny is  $20m per year through 2008.
What is the financial benefit of a longer contract for basically the same per year $s?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about real dollars, it's about managing the dollars against the Luxury Tax.

Beltran is $13.5 versus against the LT, and Manny is 19 against the LT

The other reason this makes sense is Beltran's big paydays are two years away, when the roster is loaded with low cost kids.

#35 67WasBest


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:30 AM

Exactly. 

Especially if they let Damon walk and replace him with someone cheaper than his 2005 salary (Dave Roberts or Juan Pierre, perhaps?).

Although I would be pretty happy if they sat down with Ortiz this winter and reworked his deal so that he's paid more like what he's worth in exchange for a couple more years tacked on.  So that money could go to him, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do they pull that off when they have $121M committed already?

#36 Spacemans Bong


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:32 AM

Again, where is this evidence the Mets want to give the Red Sox Carlos Beltran?

Pipe. Dream.

#37 JimD

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:33 AM

Five years for Damon is probably too much.  But I'm willing to bet that the Yankees offer that to him.  How badly do you NOT want to see Damon in the Bronx next season?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The worst possible course of action for the Red Sox would be to worry about what the Yankees can pay players. They can outspend Boston by $100 million or more if they choose to. If the Red Sox are reasonable and fair at all times when negotating with players (unlike their approach with Pedro), they should have a decent chance to re-sign some of them.

JD

#38 hytem

  • 449 posts

Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:40 AM

Maybe I'm obtuse, but that article includes the words "volatile outfielder" and "baggage...capable of damaging team chemistry"...I guess I just don't see it.  I've never thought of Manny as being a clubhouse cancer, nor does he really seem like a prima donna (he does have all of the qualifications however).  Of course we're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors, but you would think that if Manny were such a huge personality problem, that someone would have griped about it by now.

Still not a valid reason to trade him away, IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree.
If your best hitter has issues, you discuss them with him.
You don't waste your time trying to get 50 cents on the dollar for him,
and self-destructing.

The Sox first mistake last year was unloading Roberts.
He was their perfect role player.
They have to learn how to keep good 4th outfielders happy.

#39 Charley Weir

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:57 AM

One housekeeping motion: If the bases are loaded ...no outs...and zero runs score...
The Trio of Miscreants must contribute $2,000 each to the Jimmy Fund...


imo, THAT BY 10. (Even with props to El Duque)

Johnny said "No hometown discount" but, where do you want to play?

What would Dave Roberts say to being here? I'd take him as leadoff.

Besides, Caveman Johnny couldn't play in the Bronx - he'd have to shave between games of a doubleheader to not break the no facial hair rule!

Let's let Gabe try to platoon with Trot - light a fire under the ol' dirt dog!

Also, I'll go look up Trot's 2003 stats - the last year we had NO major injuries!
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG SLG
134 441 81 135 24 6 28 87 65 96 .306 .396

Edited by Charley Weir, 10 October 2005 - 12:03 PM.


#40 86spike


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:03 PM

How do they pull that off when they have $121M committed already?


Do we really have that much tied up for '06?

My research shows us at:

Manny - $19M
Varitek - $10M
Renteria - $8M
Nixon $6.5M
Ortiz - $6.5M
Mirabelli - $1.5M
Cora - $1.4M
Adam Stern - $.3M

Schilling - $13M
Clement $9.5M
Foulke - $7.25M
Wakefield - $4M
Wells - $4M (plus starts incentives)

Which only totals about $91M.

Then we have several guys who may or may not make the 25 man roster who are arb eligible or will get pre-arb raises like:

Arroyo - $4M (generous?)
Youlillis - $1M
Hansen - $1M
Paplebon - $.3M
Dinardo - $.3M
Delcarmen - $.3M
Gonzalez - $2M
Harville $.5M
Bradford $2M (?)
Miller $1.5M (same deal as last year due to injuries)

Which is only another $13M give-or-take.

So I get a committed total of around $104M already potentially in the books... not your stated $121M.

As for giving Ortiz a bump... he'll make $6.5M next year and the '07 option is for $7.75. I'd say the guy has made himself into more than a $7M bat and if they want to keep him around beyond '07 they might want to pay him now. Give him $9M a year for 4 more years. That adds $2.5M next season which would be less than the difference between Millar and Youks in '05.

#41 Punchado


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:17 PM

As someone stated earlier, I thought the whole point of having guys like Pap and Lester and Alvarez on the team was that you can then afford to have Manny AND Schilling AND whatever other expensive players you want.

#42 67WasBest


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:19 PM

Do we really have that much tied up for '06?

My research shows us at:

Manny - $19M
Varitek - $10M
Renteria - $8M
Nixon $6.5M
Ortiz - $6.5M
Mirabelli - $1.5M
Cora - $1.4M
Adam Stern - $.3M

Schilling - $13M
Clement $9.5M
Foulke - $7.25M
Wakefield - $4M
Wells - $4M (plus starts incentives)

Which only totals about $91M.

Then we have several guys who may or may not make the 25 man roster who are arb eligible or will get pre-arb raises like:

Arroyo - $4M (generous?)
Youlillis - $1M
Hansen - $1M
Paplebon - $.3M
Dinardo - $.3M
Delcarmen - $.3M
Gonzalez - $2M
Harville $.5M
Bradford $2M (?)
Miller $1.5M (same deal as last year due to injuries)

Which is only another $13M give-or-take.

So I get a committed total of around $104M already potentially in the books... not your stated $121M.

As for giving Ortiz a bump... he'll make $6.5M next year and the '07 option is for $7.75.  I'd say the guy has made himself into more than a $7M bat and if they want to keep him around beyond '07 they might want to pay him now.  Give him $9M a year for 4 more years.  That adds $2.5M next season which would be less than the difference between Millar and Youks in '05.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Add $7.5 for benefits and add $4.5 to fill out the 40 man roster and your number comes to $116 million. I may have allocated too much for Arroyo and Miller in my calculations, but either way, $116 or $121, there's not a lot of wiggle room.

#43 BigMike


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:27 PM

Add $7.5 for benefits and add $4.5 to fill out the 40 man roster and your number comes to $116 million.  I may have allocated too much for Arroyo and Miller in my calculations, but either way, $116 or $121, there's not a lot of wiggle room.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Personally I wouldn't keep Miller at that price. Also not that it is much money, but no way Youkilis sees 1 million next year, unles they are going to sign him to a 5 year deal and decide to overpay him this year as part of it. He is more a 400K guy if he is lucky.

#44 CaptainLaddie


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:28 PM

From lurker Greg -

"Here's my thought: is it my imagination or do the Sox seem to run away from older players too quickly just because they think said player will drop off the map? Roger is one example and I believe we'll be saying the same about Pedro in a couple of years. I went back and looked at the Yankees run of championships and the thing that's amazing is the number of guys that had great seasons for them while in their mid or late 30s. O'Neill. Justice. Clemens. Tino Martinez. Boggs. Strawberry. Now they've got Gordon, Sheffield and Rivera who will be 38, 37 and 36 next month, respectively (fwiw, Sheff, Gordon and Papi all have the same birthday - 11/18). Many of these are players I'm starting to think the Red Sox might have dumped - and in several cases did - prematurely after a bad post 30 season. I think that tendency might cause management to walk away from Mueller, Manny, and/or Damon and fans to give up on Foulke.

It all strikes me as being overly risk-averse. It's being cheap and so afraid of signing one guy who falls apart that you miss all the guys who stay strong well into their 30's. I know that George has no budget and can afford to overpay for veterans based on their past performance and look good when they perform and sweep them under the rug and maybe even blame Cashman when they don't. But still, the fact that so many "older" players have contributed to their success should stand as evidence that Manny approaching 34 and Damon 33 doesn't necessarily signal their certain demise as top-tier ballplayers. We can have thes guys and they can still have career years ahead of them and win us another world series. History has proven that. In the case of Mueller, I can see it if you want to go with Youkilis. But to automatically give up on a player because of age and one or two bad seasons, particularly where you would get a replacement from outside the organization, is a mistake.

I guess my main point, this year's free agents and specific signings and trades aside, is that we're playing at a high stakes table whether we like it or not. Sometimes, to stay in the hand, you have to take a gamble that makes you cringe. But you do it because it's the only way you can win."

#45 yecul


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:34 PM

I don't see much point in retaining Miller. They thought he could regain his form. He didn't. After further injuries, he probably won't next year either. And he's not a pitcher you can stash in AAA letting him work his way back. Eventually he'll probably get back to be a decent back end of the rotation starter, but I don't think that'll happen in 2006... or 2007 for that matter.

#46 irishkg

  • 224 posts

Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:41 PM

It's not about real dollars, it's about managing the dollars against the Luxury Tax.
Beltran is $13.5 versus against the LT, and Manny is 19 against the LT
The other reason this makes sense is Beltran's big paydays are two years away, when the roster is loaded with low cost kids. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whole Beltran idea may be moot as a baseball move.
As I understand, financial implications for a Beltran deal relative to luxury tax differ from what you said. Agree with you that cash outlay for Beltran goes up in later years.

'06 LT kicks in at payroll exceeding $136.5m ['05 LT > $128M]
For LT purposes, payrolls defined to include:
-Salaries plus earned bonuses for 40-man roster [In '05: players 27-40 cost $1.5M, SOSH est. $4M in '06]
-Fixed amount per team in benefits and related expenses ['05 Benefits $8M]
-Multiyear contracts valued at average annual value regardless of actual cash payout in specific year [so SOSH #s for '06 should be AAV $s]
[Beltran AAV for remaining $119 in contract is $19.8M/yr]

For Red Sox-- '06 Lux Tax for 3rd time violaters 40% of $s over $136.5M

#47 941827

  • 3,286 posts

Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:46 PM

Chicago Sun Times:
Earlier this season, after Ramirez told Sports Illustrated that he preferred a trade from the Red Sox, members of White Sox management said Ramirez's baggage was capable of damaging team chemistry. Ramirez is the kind of high-profile, large-ego player whom general manager Ken Williams avoided when putting together this season's roster.

http://www.suntimes....pt-soxnt08.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Carl Everett, Frank Thomas, AJ Pierzynski, and Bobby Jenks (to a lesser extent) say howdy.

Further, I suspect that Ozzie Guillen would convince management that he could "control" Manny.

This is as good a place to say this as any: I think Manny will be gone for the same reason that Pedro is gone. Pedro is gone because management was fed up with dealing with a prima donna and figured that between the WS win and the amounts of money and years Pedro wanted, the fan base would not revolt if Pedro didn't return. The team wants to be rid of the problems Manny causes in the clubhouse because of his attitude (whether the attitude is due to being a prima donna or a 34 year-old child is immaterial). And since there is a reasonable argument for letting him go (getting older, huge contract), the team believes it has enough capital with the fan base to dump him without losing the sell-out streak. Just as with Pedro, you can argue that taking your lumps with Manny is worth what he brings to the table on offense.

I think the Sox are going to take this opportunity to bring in more "good baseball guys" and fewer "idiots." I suspect Manny, Damon, Arroyo and Millar will all be gone and guys like Tek, Trot, Mueller, ER, and Ortiz will be expected to lead a more buttoned-down clubhouse. Look at the plain-vanilla A's, for whom Francona coached, to see the future of the Red Sox.

#48 Pumpsie


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:50 PM

ANY offseason moves post which starts off by saying that the "obvious" first thing to do is to trade Manny Ramirez is horseshit from the get-go.

We let our best pitcher go after last season and now you want to trade our best position player...by far. You're an unbelievable idiot.

If there was one free agent signing last year which was more stupid than Theo's signing of Edgar Renteria, it was Omar Minaya's signing of Carlos Beltran. If Edgar Renteria were an outfielder and was even more expensive, he'd be Carlos Beltran. In other words, Carlos Beltran sucks to have on your team.

The guys we SHOULD be dangling (besides Nixon and Arroyo) are Renteria and Clement, you know, expensive lousy players.

Roberts instead of Damon would be an excellent move.

The place to really improve the offense is first base.

Edited by Pumpsie, 10 October 2005 - 12:57 PM.


#49 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:16 PM

Okay, this is just an exercise for the fun of it. I don't really get the argument by the lurker that the Sox have somehow always been leery of older players. Clemens was getting fat and somewhat mediocre in '95 and '96. If he'd gotten in shape like he did for the '97 Blue Jays, I doubt that the Sox would've cared what his age was. And Schilling, Wakefield, Timlin, Wells etc. This is a team afraid of older players? And I don't buy the supposed brilliance of the mfy's in having all those guys listed in that same post. Some of them were lousy hollow players in their late 30's.

Allright. given the presumption that you're going to re-tool the Sox, here's one shot at it.

Trades
Manny to the Mets for Lastings Milledge
Wells and Delcarmen plus cash to the Padres for Scott Linebrink
Mirabelli, Lowrie & rights to Wade Miller plus cash to AZ for Chad Tracy
Arroyo to Cincy for Ryan Freel

Signings
Brian Giles for 3 years $27 million
B.J. Ryan for 3 years $19 million
Paul Byrd for 2 years $7.5 million

New lineup:

Freel cf
Giles lf
Ortiz DH
Tracy 1B
Nixon rf
Varitek c
Renteria ss
Youkilis 3b
Pedroia 2b

Starting Rotation:

Schilling
Papelbon
Wakefield
Byrd
Clement

Pen:

Foulke
Ryan
Linebrink
Hansen
Timlin
Dinardo

(Try to bring Harville back and invite to spring training)
(Alvarez at AAA, along with Dinardo being the 6th starters)

bench:

Shoppach c
Cora 2b, ss
Graffaninio 2b, 3b (starts season at second with Pedroia taking over by end)
Olerud 1b
(don't know who, righthanded platoon partner for Trot)

Yeah, I haven't thought this all the way through. And this team wouldn't score 910 runs. But it sure as hell wouldn't give up 800, either. The pen would kick ass.

#50 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:22 PM

I don't think most of those deals make any sense, Rough. The Mets aren't going to take on Manny's salary without making the Sox take some back, in the form of players or subsidization.

I don't believe the Sox can trade a players rights either, nor do I understand that from Wade Miller's point of view. Why wouldn't the DBacks just sign him on their own? Not sure the Sox are giving up nearly enough for Tracy.

The Reds deal looks more realistic; although I question why a team like the Reds would want Arroyo. I would think they'd prefer someone younger. Maybe Delcarmen and Moss for Freel would make more sense.

I also imagine Paul Byrd gets a lot more than that; he got $5M this year and had a pretty good season.

Alvarez and Dinardo as our depth scares the crap out of me, too.