[ookami7m]

Historically when any professional sports team takes the kind of dump that the Red Sox just did - rumors start to fly about the Manager (or rarely a coach) on the "Hot Seat."

In various threads this morning there have been allegations that there is a talent evaluation issue or a coaching issue that is preventing our pitching/offense/ball boys from being as effective as they could be.

Is this Tito's fault? Is it Theo's fault? Is it Nip or Dave Wallace's fault? How about Papa Jack? Is it the injury bug? While those three are all good questions - the more important one is: Who is going to take the blame?

In 2001 Jimy Williams got launched after a similar schnide.
In 2003 Grady Little was shown where he could pack his office after the 8th inning of Game 7.

So should someone take the fall for this, or even take the blame? And will they?

This post has been edited by ookami7m: 21 August 2006 - 11:20 AM

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Sigh .. why not put the blame where it belongs .. on the players .. whether due to injury or just failure to perform.

In Boston .. as just about everywhere else .. the Players win and Management loses .. and it's stupid.

[ookami7m]

BCsMightyJoeYoung, on Aug 21 2006, 12:23 PM, said:

Sigh .. why not put the blame where it belongs .. on the players .. whether due to injury or just failure to perform.

In Boston .. as just about everywhere else .. the Players win and Management loses .. and it's stupid.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely (as I think most do) that the players are the one's who control the outcomes of games. But that wasn't the premise of the question either. Where realistically will the blame fall - because the players never get the heat in the media or from the fans.

[Phil Nevin 23]

Theo and Tito should be put on a high level warning.

The pitching coaches should be immediately replaced.

Thanks Dave Wallace and Al Nipper, nice knowing you and glad you're healthy again, but I have seen nothing to indicate why you should be managing a pitching staff. Irrespective of whether they are tested veterans or rookies, you have not been effective whether it's physical mechanics evaluation and correction or mental approach. Also, you are not effective in strategy in game situations.

[SaveBooFerriss]

Is this Tito's fault? No really, I do think that he manages too much for tomorrow and not enough for today - like Torre does, but Tito is still a good manager IMO.

Is it Theo's fault? The FO did a lousy constructing a bullpen, Theo should get one pass. Not sure how much he was invovled in all of the decisions that lead to the current bullpen. Short of trading for 2 SP and 3 bullpen arms, there is not much he could do.

Is it Nip or Dave Wallace's fault? Yes & yes. Pitchers seem to do worse when they come to the Sox either from other teams or from the minors. IMO, the pitching coaching must be the major suspect. Wallace should be replaced. Nip can go back to bullpen coach if he so desires, but they need a new pitching coach. Mel Stottlemeyer?

How about Papa Jack? Are you crazy? Papa jack again has done a great job. The polar opposite of Nip & Wallace.

Is it the injury bug? Injuries suck, but it shouldn't let Nip & Wallace escape responsibility.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[/quote]

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Quote

I agree completely (as I think most do) that the players are the one's who control the outcomes of games. But that wasn't the premise of the question either. Where realistically will the blame fall - because the players never get the heat in the media or from the fans.

Well .. to be honest it will be generally shared amongst all three .. the FO, Tito and the players .. WEEI will pine for the days of Derek Lowe and Pedro and Damon .. SoSH will rail about Tito and to a lesser extent Theo.

But why is a 90-93 win team with their injury history this year a failure? I had them as a 95 win team .. if you lose 3 starting pitchers and your all star closer .. representing close to 30m+ in payroll .. what do you expect?

There is only one team that can replace injured superstars with equal talent. Gary Sheffield gets hurt ? Lets bring in Bobby Abreu .. it only costs money.

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Quote

Is it Theo's fault? The FO did a lousy constructing a bullpen, Theo should get one pass. Not sure how much he was invovled in all of the decisions that lead to the current bullpen. Short of trading for 2 SP and 3 bullpen arms, there is not much he could do.

This is what I am having a big problem with. What is it that makes you think the FO did a lousy job of constructing a pen? They can't see the future. They can only rely on scouting reports and statistical projections. If both schools of thought say Julian Taveras should be an excellent pitcher .. and he sucks .. does that make it the FO's fault? Of course it doesn't. The bullpen is bad .. it should have been better. S**t happens.

[Paul M]

For the hell of it, I tracked down the PECOTA projection and they had the Sox at 90-72, allowing 768 runs, and scoring 864.

I was slightly rosier, but something not that different.

We're on pace to allow 846 runs and score 900 runs.

The Sox true performance level is on pace for 88 wins.

Obviously, the pitching should be on the hot-seat.

[SoxScout]

I don't know how many people have tempered their opinions of Francona since posting in the game thread last night, but I haven't. I think he has been very shaky this whole season and downright bad at points, last night being one of them.

I would like to see a poll on this site of what percent of people think we would have won that game if Papelbon comes into the game at the start of the 8th inning. I will guess it would be well over 90%.

Unless we go on some miraculous run, which we are capable of, I really question Francona’s future. He just doesn’t seem to be pushing the right buttons.

I think if we head into 2007 with a new manager and pitching coach, along with a #5 hitter (please opt-out, Aramis) we would have a very good chance to win it all.

I can't blame Theo for the bullpen, I thought Seanez and Tavarez were good signings at the time and there is no way I would give up our trash and money/prospects for someone else’s trash to try and "fix" the problem. He correctly decided to keep the kids and hoped they could step it up, they did for a while, but they have since hit the wall. Couple that with Timlin losing everything he once had, well... we are what we are.

This post has been edited by SoxScout: 21 August 2006 - 11:46 AM

[Steve Dillard]

BCsMightyJoeYoung, on Aug 21 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

But why is a 90-93 win team with their injury history this year a failure? I had them as a 95 win team .. if you lose 3 starting pitchers and your all star closer .. representing close to 30m+ in payroll  .. what do you expect?<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because we didn't lose an all-star closer. We lost a set-up guy who fell off the face of the earth last year and nobody expected him to return. We also didn't lose three [good] starting pitchers. We lost Matt Clement, who had an ERA of 5.9, comparable to the guy we replaced him with (Johnson). We lost David Wells who we replaced with a comparable guy (stats wise, Lester). And we missed Wakefield for about a month.

It's a failure because the guys we projected to become part of the new wave have bombed. Crisp and Beckett were the centerpieces for the "retooling on the fly," guys who would replace significant cogs and provide slightly diminished returns for the guys they were replacing, but (a) cheaper and (B) career uptrend numbers forecast a good future. Right now both are collossal failures, and hardly give us a good probability stepping stone into the future.

A step backwards is OK, if you have a sense that the pieces next year will change the reverse back into a forward momentum. Just having the return of the "30 million" in talent that was injured (Clement and Foulke, etc.) hardly makes me think we're moving forward again next year when they're healthy.

[Larry Gardner]

Skins24, on Aug 21 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

How about Papa Jack? Are you crazy?  Papa jack again has done a great job.  The polar opposite of Nip & Wallace. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Skins, but I'm not in agreement here........
Why hasn't Coco gotten the idea that he can't swing on a high/outside pitch?
Why hasn't Wily Mo gotten the idea that he can't swing at everything?
Why is Belli's swing still so long, and either he makes great contact or ZERO contact?
AGon has hacked a lot of the year also......granted, there's been some improvement there.

The Sox have better approaches at the plate than many teams out there, but after 4 last night, Schilling had thrown 78 pitches vs. in the 40s (don't hold me 100% to this) for Mussina. The Yankees are poster children when it comes to patience at the plate. We're still hacking more than we should be.

Granted, we lose Trot, who did see a lot of pitches. Tek has NOT seen a lot of pitches this year.

I think we've lost focus at the plate, and we're hacking more than ever right now. Statheads, I'm sure you can find a way to blow up my opinion on this, but I just hate watching these guys hack night after night.

Papa Jack has got to take some accountability for this one.

[majorwibi]

Up until recently I placed 95% of the blame on Tito for the woes related to pitching. Im not exactly sure when my mind set changed but I know hold the FO to blame for the current woes.

As of this morning I only have one pitcher that I am confident will go out and give a decent start every time he pitches (G38), two that are decent matchup pitchers (Lester and Beckett), one that could be good again (Wells) and a flip of the coin (insert 5th starter name here). Additionally, considering the tattered state of the bullpen, I cant see how Tito can be blamed for the recent collapse. Even if the starters throw a good-enough game (ie Sunday Night - G38) the second the pen takes over you better have more than a two run lead. Paps should not have to pitch two innings to get the save.

If the FO wasnt going to make any upgrade moves to help this pitching staff then they should have dumped players like Wells and Loretta for prospects and brought up people like Pauly, Gabbard and Pedroia. At least then people would realize that this is really a step-back year. My biggest frustration is that the FO thinks the 2006 team is a potential contender (and is trying to sell that to the public) but are instead setting things up poorly for a future run of wild-card esque playoff apperances.

I often wonder how much the FO would be crucified for the Beckett trade if Lowell wasnt actually producing decent numbers.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

BCsMightyJoeYoung, on Aug 21 2006, 04:35 PM, said:

But why is a 90-93 win team with their injury history this year a failure? I had them as a 95 win team .. if you lose 3 starting pitchers and your all star closer .. representing close to 30m+ in payroll  .. what do you expect?


<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to note, to win 90 this team must stiill play better than .500 ball the rest of the way (21-18), against a very difficult schedule, both in terms of opposition and travel. To win 93, they have to play .615 ball. To win 95 and therefore have any hope of qualifying for the playoffs, they need to play .667 the rest of the way.

They have not shown that they can play better than .500 against mostly mediocre opposition for more than a month.

It's certainly possible that they could go on a heroic hot streak, but realistically, we're looking at an 87-88 win season here. And even that projection may be slightly optimistic.

[Paul M]

You can't make guys have better strike-zone judgment, though. Mattingly didn't make them more disciplined as they always were; Cano is still a hacker, but any team with two of the five best batting eyes in the game will grind out ABs, plus Damon and Jeter foul off so many pitches. Crisp and Pena wouldn't be more disciplined if they were on NY, ceteris paribus.

There's no market for Loretta and Wells, though.

Until Wakefield and Varitek went down, this was a team headed for the playoffs, despite 4 key moves not panning out. Like last year with Foulke and Schilling, our best chance was Beckett turning things around, but I think even Theo would admit they should have gotten one even marginal upgrade in the bullpen.

[Judge Mental13]

Quote

I would like to see a poll on this site of what percent of people think we would have won that game if Papelbon comes into the game at the start of the 8th inning. I will guess it would be well over 90%.

With all due respect, who gives a shit what a percentage poll on this site thinks about Papelbon coming in for a 6 out save in the beginning of the 8th???

He came into the 9th with a one run lead and he blew it, that's the bottom line. Maybe he should have pitched the 8th and maybe he would have had a 2 run lead to protect in the 9th but the fact remains that he had a lead in the 9th and couldn't protect it from Melky Cabrera and Derek Jeter.

Does that mean put Papelbon on the hotseat? No, he pitched well and struck out 5 people in those two innings but to blame Tito for not putting him in to start the 8th because you think 90% of SOSH would agree with you is stupid.

Quote

I can't blame Theo for the bullpen, I thought Seanez and Tavarez were good signings at the time and there is no way I would give up our trash and money/prospects for someone else’s trash to try and "fix" the problem.  He correctly decided to keep the kids and hoped they could step it up, they did for a while, but they have since hit the wall. Couple that with Timlin losing everything he once had, well... we are what we are.

Fracona hasn't had anyone to put in a game in about a month and a half now. That's the sad reality, this team's relievers can't hold a lead and the starters can't go past 5-6 innings on average. There's not really too much else to say. Between Hansen, Timlin, Tavarez, MDC and Seanez/Lopez we're not just looking at a "bad" bullpen, we're talking about a core of relievers who are simply unable do their jobs right now. I don't really blame Hansen as much because I can't understand why he's still in Boston and not in Pawtucket working on more pitches. If the plan for the future is to develop Hansen into a premier reliever how about, ya know, letting him develop instead of making him come into high leverage MLB situations and throw his one fucking pitch?!

The front office deserves the lion's share of the hotseat, Tito's done the best he could with such a mess of a bullpen.

[Madison33]

Larry Gardner, on Aug 21 2006, 12:47 PM, said:

The Sox have better approaches at the plate than many teams out there, but after 4 last night, Schilling had thrown 78 pitches vs. in the 40s (don't hold me 100% to this) for Mussina.  The Yankees are poster children when it comes to patience at the plate.  We're still hacking more than we should be.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is funny that you point this out, and your numbers are quite close to the reality of last evening. This year, I have found myself watching pitch counts more than ever before. Last night's game seemed to be a glaring disparity that shouldn't have been. As far as the teams are concerned, the Yankees line up is one of the closer comparable ones to the Sox. It was upsetting to see Schilling's pitch count grow the way it did while the Sox hacked away and made things "easier" on Mussina last night.

It may just be my "bitter goggles" but it seems that while other teams are scouting and sitting on more pitches from our staff, our line up is reacting conversely in that they seem to hack more and more with desperation coloring most of the at bats. Hell, even Manny and Papi have been swinging earlier this year.

[5belongstoGeorge]

It is not Manny's fault.

[JokersWildJIMED]

Madison33, on Aug 21 2006, 12:07 PM, said:

It may just be my "bitter goggles" but it seems that while other teams are scouting and sitting on more pitches from our staff, our line up is reacting conversely in that they seem to hack more and more with desperation coloring most of the at bats.  Hell, even Manny and Papi have been swinging earlier this year.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The drop-off can be directly correlated to the departures of Varitek and Nixon from the lineup. Oh, and obviously the replacement of Damon for Crisp did not help.

[smastroyin]

Madison33, on Aug 21 2006, 01:07 PM, said:

It is funny that you point this out, and your numbers are quite close to the reality of last evening.  This year, I have found myself watching pitch counts more than ever before.  Last night's game seemed to be a glaring disparity that shouldn't have been.   As far as the teams are concerned, the Yankees line up is one of the closer comparable ones to the Sox.  It was upsetting to see Schilling's pitch count grow the way it did while the Sox hacked away and made things "easier" on Mussina last night. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only counter argument to this is that they were actually hitting Mussina and he only lasted four innings thanks to the groin injury. I can take short at bats when they result in hits and runs.

It was frustrating watching Schilling PC grow because we all knew that a direct link between Schilling and Papelbon was the only way the Sox would win the game. I don't think it had much to do, in this case, with the Sox hitters.

[Pumpsie]

5belongstoGeorge, on Aug 21 2006, 12:08 PM, said:

It is not Manny's fault.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boy, ain't that the truth?

Manny has stepped up big time, first for this season, even more so for the second half of this season, even more so in the last month, and even more so in this series. The guy, as Gammo would put it, is on an island.