drtooth
Oct 21 2008, 03:58 PM
Wake has been a decent-good 4/5 for a few years now. He has had injury issues each of the last 2 years, is 42 and the Sox have young pitching in the minors or may go after an arm in the off-season. What say ye, SoSH?
absintheofmalaise
Oct 21 2008, 04:05 PM
Bring him back. A league average, or slightly above, at $4mm per year is extremely valuable. He has a small ego and knows his role. I seriously doubt he'd start any more post-season games. whomever they bring in to take Tek's place (fingers crossed that it happens) can catch him as well as other pitchers and leave Tek to be the personal catcher of another SP, if he's still around.
mabrowndog
Oct 21 2008, 04:20 PM
Provided Wake is still interested in pitching, bringing him back is a no-brainer. He's the ultimate insurance policy during the regular season.
In 18 of his 30 starts, he went at least 6 innings while giving up 3 ER or less. He got shelled a few times, but a lot of that is the nature of the knuckleball on any given day -- once it leaves his hand, the ball's a slave to the elements no matter how perfect his grip and release point are.
In fact, he had only 5 outings that could be considered bloodbaths and 4 came on the road: 5/11 @ MIN, 5/23 @ OAK, 7/26 vs NYY, 9/6 @ TEX, 9/17 @ TB. In these games, he surrendered 33 ER in 17 innings. Over his remaining 164 innings, Wake put up a 2.74 ERA.
In 9 starts from May 25 to July 12, he held batters to a .176/.238/.299/.537 line, averaged 7 innings per game, and logged a 2.13 ERA.
Anyone who wouldn't want him back his completely insane.
SoxFanSince57
Oct 21 2008, 04:37 PM
IMO, it would be foolish to let Wake walk. An innings eater who only costs 4+ million is a great use of money. Why would the Sox want to dump a very capable 5th starter?
It seems to me that the Sox can do one of the following:
1--Let Buchholz/Masterson hold down the 4th spot in the rotation.
2--Package Buchholz plus in a trade for Peavy.
3--Sign CC or some other FA and move Buchholz plus for a catcher.
Either way Wake still makes sense as the team's 5th starter.
Frisbetarian
Oct 21 2008, 04:38 PM
Over the past six seasons, or since Wakefield once again became a full-time starter (2003), he has averaged 30 starts, 187 2/3 innings pitched, and just over 12 wins per season. He has also posted an ERA+ between 100 and 114 in each of those six seasons.
For $4 million a year, he is a bargain.
bd11
Oct 21 2008, 04:41 PM
I'd bring him back with the plan being that barring injury or unforseen circumstances he could not serve as a fourth starter in the playoffs. I'd want to be upfront with him on that so there would be no bad feelings and bitching in the clubhouse come playoff time. At this point in his career Wake is an excellent fifth starter, especially given his salary, but he has demonstrated that he cannot be an effective starter in the playoffs. It cannot be debated that good hitting teams consistently handle Wake in the postseason. On paper with respect to the starting pitching we were decided underdogs against Sonnenstine and the same would have been true versus Weaver or Floyd.
Trautwein's Degree
Oct 21 2008, 04:42 PM
QUOTE(mabrowndog @ Oct 21 2008, 05:20 PM)

....of his 30 starts.....
Browndog, great post as usual.
30 starts at 4 million per year. Having Wake around is like owning a 2001 Honda Civic with high miles that you don't have to make car payments on. He's not flashy but he gets you where you need to go.
Theo learned the lesson in 2006 that you can never have enough pitching in your organization.
I think the lesson from 2008 is that you can never have enough positional depth either.
Wakefield as he should be will be back if he wants to be.
HomeRunBaker
Oct 21 2008, 05:05 PM
QUOTE(mabrowndog @ Oct 21 2008, 05:20 PM)

Provided Wake is still interested in pitching, bringing him back is a no-brainer. He's the ultimate insurance policy during the regular season.
Anyone who wouldn't want him back his completely insane.
This is spot on. You pencil Wake into the 4/5 spot and allow the Buchholz' and Masterson's of the world time to figure themselves out and win a full-time job. This is probably the least of Theo's worries over the offseason.
gammoseditor
Oct 21 2008, 05:31 PM
I'd like to see someone make the case for not bringing him back, because I see no reason not to. For next year you have gurantees in your rotation of Lester, Beckett, Daisuke, and Wake if you bring him back. That still leaves one spot for FA, Buchholz, Bowden, Masterson. I don't see why you would want to fill two rotation spots with that list when you can bring Wake back so cheap. I think anyone wanting Wake gone is over reacting to a bad game 4 start and not looking at the whole picture.
koufax32
Oct 21 2008, 06:30 PM
QUOTE(gammoseditor @ Oct 21 2008, 06:31 PM)

I'd like to see someone make the case for not bringing him back, because I see no reason not to. For next year you have gurantees in your rotation of Lester, Beckett, Daisuke, and Wake if you bring him back. That still leaves one spot for FA, Buchholz, Bowden, Masterson. I don't see why you would want to fill two rotation spots with that list when you can bring Wake back so cheap. I think anyone wanting Wake gone is over reacting to a bad game 4 start and not looking at the whole picture.
I'll be your huckleberry.
The theory goes that Wakefield needs his own catcher. Whether that is fair or not it's something that the powers that be believe. So, Wakefield would require Mr Cash again or someone like him. That restricts options for a FO that likes having as many options available to them.
Wakefield's numbers tell us that he is averageto slightly above average. His salary is what makes him valuable. The good news about the Sox rotation is that, presently constructed w/o wake, there are at least two slots for very low cost pitching (Lester and Clay or Jedi). That savings could allow the Sox to pursue a better option (Sheets, CC, etc) than Wake while at the same time filling the 5 spot with a higher upside player.
Another point that needs to be discussed is Wake's health/effectiveness. As the stats show he's been rather steady. At some point though a 40+ year old body will break down. Despite Wake's healthy past it makes more sense to take that "risk on a younger body.
yecul
Oct 21 2008, 06:33 PM
QUOTE(HomeRunBaker @ Oct 21 2008, 06:05 PM)

This is spot on. You pencil Wake into the 4/5 spot and allow the Buchholz' and Masterson's of the world time to figure themselves out and win a full-time job. This is probably the least of Theo's worries over the offseason.
The one 'issue' with Wakefield is that you are settling for average and have an opportunity cost of not being able to transition the young talent to the majors.
If they can do both and use the 5th starter and fill in appearances to attain the same end then that is great.
This year obviously they were able to do that only to see Buchholz fall apart, but they were 1 for 2 as Lester really emerged. That's a good outcome.
A lot of this viewpoint depends on what you think of Buchholz, Masterson, and even Bowden. Wakefield at 4m and a remaining 5th spot to accommodate them and leaving some depth is a plus.
gammoseditor
Oct 21 2008, 07:57 PM
QUOTE(koufax32 @ Oct 21 2008, 07:30 PM)

The theory goes that Wakefield needs his own catcher. Whether that is fair or not it's something that the powers that be believe. So, Wakefield would require Mr Cash again or someone like him. That restricts options for a FO that likes having as many options available to them.
I don't see why this is a big deal. Most catchers don't catch every day anyway and Wake's turn in the rotation gives you the opportunity to give your starting catcher a day off. The Red Sox certainly don't figure to have a catcher next year who you would want playing every single day. Backup catchers can't hit anyway, so i don't see a big deal looking for a defense first, Kevin Cash type to catch Wake.
QUOTE(koufax32 @ Oct 21 2008, 07:30 PM)

Wakefield's numbers tell us that he is averageto slightly above average. His salary is what makes him valuable. The good news about the Sox rotation is that, presently constructed w/o wake, there are at least two slots for very low cost pitching (Lester and Clay or Jedi). That savings could allow the Sox to pursue a better option (Sheets, CC, etc) than Wake while at the same time filling the 5 spot with a higher upside player.
My problem with this strategy is this rotation lacks depth. Instead of Becket/Lester/Daisuke/Wake/FA with the young guys as depth you have one of the young guys in the rotation. Now if someone gets hurt you have another young guy in the rotation or you are trying to trade for a SP during the season when the cost is very high.
QUOTE(koufax32 @ Oct 21 2008, 07:30 PM)

Another point that needs to be discussed is Wake's health/effectiveness. As the stats show he's been rather steady. At some point though a 40+ year old body will break down. Despite Wake's healthy past it makes more sense to take that "risk on a younger body.
He's made 30+ starts 5 of the last 6 years. He's a knuckleballer. I don't see why his health is more of an issue than who you would be replacing him with.
Zupcic Fan
Oct 21 2008, 08:13 PM
I voted to let him go----for purely selfish reasons.
I agree that he is a bargain.
I agree that his inning eating helps the team.
I couldn't care less that we have to carry an incompetent personal catcher for him.
But if I have to continue to watch him, I think I might have to be institutionalized.
He drives me nuts. You never know when he will totally lose the strike zone, have days where every pitch is a meatball, hit the first two batters with a 4 run lead. I had to take games off from watching when he was pitching.
Totally my problem, but I hope they find somebody else. I'd rather have Varitek back, and that's saying a lot.
jacklamabe65
Oct 21 2008, 08:14 PM
QUOTE(Zupcic Fan @ Oct 22 2008, 01:13 AM)

I voted to let him go----for purely selfish reasons.
I agree that he is a bargain.
I agree that his inning eating helps the team.
I couldn't care less that we have to carry an incompetent personal catcher for him.
But if I have to continue to watch him, I think I might have to be institutionalized.
He drives me nuts. You never know when he will totally lose the strike zone, have days where every pitch is a meatball, hit the first two batters with a 4 run lead. I had to take games off from watching when he was pitching.
Totally my problem, but I hope they find somebody else. I'd rather have Varitek back, and that's saying a lot.
Release Wake - free Zup.
wade boggs chicken dinner
Oct 21 2008, 08:25 PM
I find it hard to believe that over 1/3rd of the people on this board have any doubt whether to bring him back. What's the worst-case scenario? The Sox eat his $4M? I find it difficult to believe that they would block one of their prospects from pitching in the majors if Wake stops being league average or better.
trekfan55
Oct 21 2008, 10:46 PM
QUOTE
The theory goes that Wakefield needs his own catcher. Whether that is fair or not it's something that the powers that be believe. So, Wakefield would require Mr Cash again or someone like him. That restricts options for a FO that likes having as many options available to them.
While I agree with this, I also agre with other people on the board in that a good hitting backup catcher is exteremely difficult to find. Maybe some poeple here are pining for the 2004 Doug Mirabelli. Basically, there will be a backup catcher, and that backup catcher will probably be a "defense first -- little hitting" kind of guy. The problem is that Tito usually sticks us with Alex Cora and some other horrible sub on the lineup when Wake pitches, which amplifies the problem.
CSteinhardt
Oct 22 2008, 12:27 AM
QUOTE(koufax32 @ Oct 21 2008, 07:30 PM)

The theory goes that Wakefield needs his own catcher. Whether that is fair or not it's something that the powers that be believe. So, Wakefield would require Mr Cash again or someone like him. That restricts options for a FO that likes having as many options available to them.
Just to be clear, this hasn't been true for his entire career. Is the theory really that Wake needs his own catcher or is the theory that Tek either (a) can't catch the knuckler or (b) has immense value calling pitches for other pitches but that value is minimized with Wakefield, and that as a result of one or both of these, this should be Tek's day off?
For a while, there was a theory that Mirabelli was the only person who could catch him, after all.
Spacemans Bong
Oct 22 2008, 03:39 AM
QUOTE(trekfan55 @ Oct 22 2008, 04:46 AM)

While I agree with this, I also agre with other people on the board in that a good hitting backup catcher is exteremely difficult to find. Maybe some poeple here are pining for the 2004 Doug Mirabelli. Basically, there will be a backup catcher, and that backup catcher will probably be a "defense first -- little hitting" kind of guy. The problem is that Tito usually sticks us with Alex Cora and some other horrible sub on the lineup when Wake pitches, which amplifies the problem.
We got spoiled with Mirabelli. From 2001 to 2005 Mirabelli put up OPS+ of 126, 88, 92, 124 and 87. For that five year span he was the best backup in the league year to year. If you did a comparison with the Yankees, they got two good years out of John Flaherty, and then threw out his corpse along with no-stick guys like Sal Fasano, Todd Greene and Kelly Stinnett during that time.
Kevin Cash hit 225/309/338 last year. Looking at good MLB teams with clear backups, he competes. Toby Hall of the White Sox hit 260/304/331. Shawn Riggans of the Rays hit 222/287/407 which was a little bit better. Henry Blanco of the Cubs did better at 292/325/392 but that was one of Henry Blanco's best seasons. Mike Redmond hit 287/321/333. The only guy who I would take over Cash is Ramon Castro, who had his usual season with the Mets (245/312/441), but he's under contract in 09.
The other teams didn't have a clear backup, either because one guy just caught the whole season (Martin with LA, Kendall with Milwaukee), or because their starting catcher sucked so much their backup ended up playing much of the time - Jeff Mathis hit .194 and lost his job to the surprising Mike Napoli, or Philly where Carlos Ruiz had a .620 OPS and shared his job for a while.
Backup catchers who can hit are a premium, and therefore, Wakefield isn't unnecessarily hurting the team. Besides, as we've seen this year, the idea that only one catcher in the world can catch Wakefield isn't true, and other catchers, as long as they are defensively capable, can step into the void.
Yecul brings up a good point about the opportunity cost of shifting prospects into the team, but I think after the Buchholz fiasco I wouldn't count on anyone. If there is simply no room for prospects in the event we sign a free agent pitcher such as Sabathia or others, then these guys would make great trade bait.
thisyearisthe
Oct 22 2008, 01:12 PM
"Having Wake around is like owning a 2001 Honda Civic with high miles that you don't have to make car payments on. He's not flashy but he gets you where you need to go."
I agree with this, but it is for this point that I disagree with almost everyone else on this thread. I'm not paying $100 to watch a frigging Honda Civic race around the track. It's boring.
Seriously, how many times have you ended up with Sox tickets for a Wakefield scheduled start and complained to your friends "dammit it seems like I always get Wakefield"
If all you are interested in is tracking the stats, then fine he's a wonderful value. If you actually enjoy watching the game, I can't believe most people actually enjoy watching Wakefield pitch.
Just one man's opinion - I've had enough of Wake. Let's give him a nice big sendoff and see what Buchholz or Bowden can do for us.
knucklecup
Oct 22 2008, 01:33 PM
Boston Herald:
QUOTE
Knuckleballer Tim Wakefield [stats]is coming off yet another solid season that ended disappointingly in injury. He remains one of the biggest bargains in the league, a 180-200 inning pitcher with a perpetual $4 million option the Sox almost certainly will exercise.
absintheofmalaise
Oct 22 2008, 02:09 PM
QUOTE(thisyearisthe @ Oct 22 2008, 02:12 PM)

"Having Wake around is like owning a 2001 Honda Civic with high miles that you don't have to make car payments on. He's not flashy but he gets you where you need to go."
I agree with this, but it is for this point that I disagree with almost everyone else on this thread. I'm not paying $100 to watch a frigging Honda Civic race around the track. It's boring.
Seriously, how many times have you ended up with Sox tickets for a Wakefield scheduled start and complained to your friends "dammit it seems like I always get Wakefield"
If all you are interested in is tracking the stats, then fine he's a wonderful value. If you actually enjoy watching the game, I can't believe most people actually enjoy watching Wakefield pitch.
Just one man's opinion - I've had enough of Wake. Let's give him a nice big sendoff and see what Buchholz or Bowden can do for us.
What type of pitcher, or specific pitcher, do you consider it worth your time and money to go and see? It isn't enough to go to a game and see a pitcher who, more times than not, pitches well enough to give his team a very good chance to win the game if the offense cooperates? People who track those darn stats also enjoy watching the game.
Spacemans Bong
Oct 22 2008, 02:12 PM
I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to find a knuckleballer less entertaining than a young guy who throws hard. There are 50 guys in MLB who are young and throw hard. There's one knuckleballer.
Jim Ed Rice in HOF
Oct 22 2008, 02:42 PM
Out of 67 AL pitchers with more than 100 IP's, Wake ranked:
18th in quality starts
9th in WHIP
6th in BAA
12th in OPS
32nd in ERA
That's a pretty good deal for $4MM per year. This in turn provides payroll flexibility which will keep me entertained so long as the Sox use it effectively and can compete.
If I was going to judge who to keep based on the entertainment factor, Matsuzaka might be out of a job because his games can be downright painful to watch sometimes.
jodyreeddudley78
Oct 22 2008, 02:50 PM
I find winning teams aesthetically pleasing, but maybe that is just me. I understand the "frustration" in watching Wakefield, but a more than competent pitcher that you can rely on for 30 starts and 180+ IP at above MLB average quality for $4M/yr allows the team to go out and get another player that you may enjoy watching and win some games along the way. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
koufax32
Oct 22 2008, 03:50 PM
If it's a foregone conclusion that Wake will return for another year the real question for SoSH becomes "are we comfortable with wake as our #4 pitcher going into next season?"
Now THAT thought scares me. Thanks for the peripherals Jim Ed. I admit to being surprised by them. The ERA is what we'd expect but 9th in WHIP? In looking at his
career stats you would expect a bit of regression in some of those peripherals.
IMO the team would still need (a relative term) another starter. This stems from a severe lack of faith in Buchholz as a number five man.
thisyearisthe
Oct 22 2008, 11:10 PM
Since you asked, I enjoy watching a pitcher who occasionally dabbles with a no-hitter.
I enjoy watching a pitcher that confidently controls the flow of the game.
I like a pitcher that blows you away with 96 MPH fastballs on the corner.
I like a pitcher that buckles your knees with a 12-6 curveball that breaks over the plate.
I like a pitcher with a nasty slider that starts inside and paints the outside corner.
I like a pitcher with a splitter that you can't lay off.
I don't like a pitcher that causes me to hold my breath with every pitch, and who gives the distinct impression that he is also crossing his fingers and hoping the pitch does what it's supposed to do. That's my personal preference.
I'm not saying Tim Wakefield isn't talented, or that he's not a winner. He is both of these things. I'm saying he's old, he's boring to watch, and you can't count on him for a big win at any point, and certainly not in the playoffs.
You can count on his innings, you can count on 10-15 wins, and usually he keeps the team in the game. These are good things.
If that's all you need to be entertained, then you are more easily satisfied than I. I will make sure the next time I have tix to a Wakefield start I will post here and ask someone with a Beckett or Lester start to swap with me. I'm sure I'll get plenty of takers!
Blacken
Oct 23 2008, 03:39 AM
So now we Sox fans don't want wins, we want wins from conventional pitchers who are vastly more expensive than the pitcher in question, were we looking to the free agent market.
Gee, I'm glad we've all gone retarded!
EDIT: I was rethinking that second line, but I think it's staying in because it's pretty much accurate.
worm0082
Oct 23 2008, 04:43 AM
Unless he implodes completly, as long as he's healthy IMO and he wants to play, you keep picking up the option. Maybe you move him out to the bullpen eventually 2 years down the road, but to let it go at ONLY 4 mil per, because he's "boring to watch" is insane.
Edit: not that it has much to do with this topic directly, but for me personal stats are always fun to reflect back on after a season ends.
Im sure most of us know this but Tim is about on average 2 seasons away as a starter from passing Clemens/Young for wins, 1 season away from passing Clemens for games started and innings pitched, and in the long shot department, 4 seasons from Passing Stanley for games for a pitcher, and K's for Clemens. Hes the record holder for losses, hits, runs, earned runs, walks, HBPs, and HRs. (not that any of those are something to be "proud" of exactly, but still pretty cool for a team thats been around almost 110 years). And overall hes close to 200 wins and 2000k's.
Buzzkill Pauley
Oct 23 2008, 07:19 AM
Wakefield has to be brought back -- there's no conceivable way that Theo shows him the door over $4M and a backup catcher.
But he has to be brought back as a clear #5 starter, not the 4/5 guy he's been in the past. With Lester, Beckett, and DiceK that's only one slot to fill ahead of him, so that's a good thing. The problem, of course, is that you can't rely on any of the young guys to step in and be the #4. Buchholz crashed and burned this year and probably will receive the Craig Hansen treatment in 2009, Bowden's stuff doesn't play up where you would want to just outright hand him a starting job, and Masterson has seemed to become a necessary part of the pen.
Personally, I think Jedi would be the best bet to step in and be that #4 next year. Buchholz and Bowden should both be stashed to make injury/spot starts. But realistically, I think Theo will sign a top-tier injury question like Sheets or Burnett, with DiceK moving to the 4.
thisyearisthe
Oct 23 2008, 09:28 AM
QUOTE(Blacken @ Oct 23 2008, 04:39 AM)

So now we Sox fans don't want wins, we want wins from conventional pitchers who are vastly more expensive than the pitcher in question, were we looking to the free agent market.
Gee, I'm glad we've all gone retarded!
EDIT: I was rethinking that second line, but I think it's staying in because it's pretty much accurate.
I love being called retarded for expressing my opinion. It's what makes this board so fantastic. Thanks for your contribution.
My favorite sox pitcher to watch is Jon Lester. Is he costing us more than Wakefield?
The question was asked what type of pitcher I enjoy watching. I answered the question. I'm not judging the Sox decision to bring back Wakefield if that's what occurs. I'm actually torn. If I'm running the team and my goal is to
make the playoffs, I probably bring him back. He's a good value and you know what you're getting. He's a commodity that they control. I am not trying to insult Wake or any of the his fans on this board. I am just tired of watching him pitch with mixed results and would prefer a conventional pitcher (nobody said anything about "vastly more expensive", in fact I believe my suggestion was Masterson and Bowden/Buchholz to round out the rotation, which would be vastly less expensive) with upside potential. I'm big on upside potential.
If I'm a fan and I break the bank to buy tickets for game 5 of the ALCS, I'm pretty pissed when I have to watch the other team take batting practice for 2+ innings.
Lidle Airways
Oct 23 2008, 09:49 AM
I could not care less about anyone's entertainment value regarding the Red Sox. I do not care if people enjoyed the wave or wish they played "Sweet Caroline" in the 6th AND the 8th innings.
Here is what I find entertaining at Red Sox games: Winning.
Having the Wakefield Option in our back pockets is a tremendous value to this team. Wakefield has made 30+ starts in 5 of the last six seasons and has had an ERA+ of 100 or more for each of the last eight seasons.
theyearisthe or whatever your name is... you bitched and moaned about Wakefield in the LCS... do you think it's just happenstance that Wakefield has seen six LCS appearences since he has been with the Red Sox?
Tim Wakefield is obviously not the best player on any team but it's having guys like him fill out a rotation rather then the Darrell Rasner's of the world that make the difference in a team being OK/good to being a serious contender. Most teams have the aces or very good pitchers. I am not saying they are easy to find but once you have them, you build your team around them. Havinga a pitcher like Wakefield to go in concert with guys like Lester and Dice-K is a huge help.
The fact that anyone on this board is "torn" about re-signing Tim Wakefield for a 1year/4 million dollar contract because he is boring is honestly beyond stunning.
How about we go get Kevin Correia instead? Josh Fogg? Brett Tomko? Would they excite you?
dderemer
Oct 23 2008, 10:09 AM
QUOTE(thisyearisthe @ Oct 23 2008, 12:10 AM)

Since you asked, I enjoy watching a pitcher who occasionally dabbles with a no-hitter.
I enjoy watching a pitcher that confidently controls the flow of the game.
Uh... have you watched Tim Wakefield pitch at all over the past 14 years?
Wakefield has more than occasionally dabbled with no-hitters. The most recent one that comes to mind is
Aug. 13, 2007 against the Rays, when he took a no-no into the eighth.
thisyearisthe
Oct 23 2008, 10:16 AM
You make fun of my dumb name but you have the crassest name on the board.
God, you guys make some really annoying arguments - you're arguing against things I never said. I never said I wanted a more expensive option. I never said I wanted Josh Fogg. I never said I enjoy sweet caroline or any of the other dumb crap they do. I enjoy watching baseball. Pitcher against hitter. The drama - big moments. 7 innings of 2-hit ball. Taking a shutout into the 8th. I love it. It's my favorite part of the game.
With Wakefield, it's "I wonder if he'll throw another knuckler here or try to sneak a 72 MPH fastball by this guy" - it kills me to watch. I would rather take a chance on a young pitcher. I would rather see if Bowden is ready for the show. I would rather see if Buchholz can hold up for a season. I want the next Jon Lester. I'm not even arguing against re-signing Wakefield at this point. I just don't want him in the rotation if we can find a better option. If you want to keep Wake around as insurance for long relief, spot starts, of if buchholz craps out again/Bowden's not ready, I'm fine with that. I do like winning. I don't want to see the Sox miss the playoffs by making the Hughes/Kennedy mistake the yankees made.
The fact that there are fans on this board who enjoy watching wakefield pitch is beyond stunning to me.
worm0082
Oct 23 2008, 10:17 AM
Thats part of the amazing fun thing about Wakefield, the ageless knuckleballer, last of his breed, any day, he could be shelled yes, but he could also throw a no hitter or a complete game shutout. His win/loss this season does not indicate his performance correctly. He should have had more than a couple more wins. I find it exciting and have always loved watching him pitch.
On a personal note I find it fun to sit down with my now 4 year old son , I'm 26, and watch him pitch as I did in the ALCS and know when he started here I was only 13 and remember him then. It seems like a lifetime ago. He's the closest to Yaz many of us my age will experience or get to see in a Sox uni these days. (Loyalty to a team)
Like Troy Brown he's just always been there, and won't go away. As he shouldnt unless his shoulder blows out one day.
It's in google news, Tim said he definatly wants to pitch in 09, and for the sox.
thisyearisthe
Oct 23 2008, 10:19 AM
I accept all of your arguments. You like him for your reasons, I don't like him for mine. Enough said. No need for name calling.
Jesus H MFC on a popsicle stick, it's just not worth expressing a contrary opinion on this board.
Buzzkill Pauley
Oct 23 2008, 10:33 AM
QUOTE(Lidle Airways @ Oct 23 2008, 10:49 AM)

Having the Wakefield Option in our back pockets is a tremendous value to this team. Wakefield has made 30+ starts in 5 of the last six seasons and has had an ERA+ of 100 or more for each of the last eight seasons.
theyearisthe or whatever your name is... you bitched and moaned about Wakefield in the LCS... do you think it's just happenstance that Wakefield has seen six LCS appearences since he has been with the Red Sox?
These are the two main tensions that make it necessary for Wake to be strictly a #5 right now, regardless of any history that has happened since 1995 -- with the knuckleball, even excellent aggregate in-season numbers have to be balanced against a game-to-game unreliability that doesn't have anything to do with fatigue or injury. Wake certainly should be on the team and starting next year because he's still damn good, but just as certainly, he should not be starting games in a win-or-go-home series.
absintheofmalaise
Oct 23 2008, 10:38 AM
QUOTE(thisyearisthe @ Oct 23 2008, 11:19 AM)

I accept all of your arguments. You like him for your reasons, I don't like him for mine. Enough said. No need for name calling.
Jesus H MFC on a popsicle stick, it's just not worth expressing a contrary opinion on this board.
I realize you weren't addressing me about the name calling. There is nothing wrong with contrary opinions. I think that folks had a problem because we want Wakefield back for performance/value reasons and you seem to not want him back for style point reasons, even though you admit that he is good for the team for the same reasons that we were all using. That's what I couldn't understand. Personally, I don't care how a guy does it as long as he performs. If Craig Counsell could actually hit, I probably wouldn't cringe in pain every time I watch him set up in the batters box.
Were you just as pissed when Beckett threw BP as you were at the Wakefield game?
DJnVa
Oct 23 2008, 10:50 AM
QUOTE(thisyearisthe @ Oct 23 2008, 11:19 AM)

Jesus H MFC on a popsicle stick, it's just not worth expressing a contrary opinion on this board.
Not when the opinion is basically "I don't like watching him because looks different than other guys".
Results should be what matters, no?
You said that Lester costs less than Wakefield...obviously. No, go out there in the market and find someone that can duplicate Wakefield's numbers (and he's really been amazingly consistent year to year) for what Wakefield costs.
dderemer
Oct 23 2008, 10:54 AM
I hear a lot of people describe Wakefield's performance as being totally random (you never know when he might get shelled). But I think he's the streakiest pitcher I've ever seen. He seems far more likely to have had a bad start when he's recently had a bad start, and far more likely to have a good start when he hasn't had a bad start in a while, relative to the averge pitcher. I don't think this just a hot hand / fooled by randomness fallacy here -- he has a 17-year major league career now. As I pointed out in the last Wakefield thread, his 2003 and 1992 LCS starting success vs. his playoff failures seem to have been fairly predictable based on his relative September performances.
David Laurila
Oct 23 2008, 10:56 AM
QUOTE(Buzzkill Pauley @ Oct 23 2008, 03:33 PM)

...have to be balanced against a game-to-game unreliability
I was having this discussion with someone the other day: whether Wakefied is indeed more inconsistent than the average pitcher, and if he is perceived as being more unreliable simply because he is a knuckleball pitcher. Using this season, and Josh Beckett, as an example, Wakefield had more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. However, because Beckett throws 96 with the knee-buckling curveball, there is a far different perception of what can be expected from him on a given day.
There are many pitchers out there who are no more consistent than Wakefield, but because they're conventional, they are looked at through a different lens. Going by the numbers, which are more important than perception, Wakefield is their equal, if not superior.
dderemer
Oct 23 2008, 10:56 AM
QUOTE(thisyearisthe @ Oct 23 2008, 11:19 AM)

I accept all of your arguments. You like him for your reasons, I don't like him for mine. Enough said.
If you had said this from the outset, you'd have gotten a better reception.
But when you say
QUOTE
The fact that there are fans on this board who enjoy watching wakefield pitch is beyond stunning to me.
that means you vastly overestimated how many people shared your opinion of his entertainment value.
Vermonter At Large
Oct 23 2008, 11:02 AM
I voted no here, because I think that there is no way that the Sox can keep both Wakefield and Varitek, and I'd rather have Tek back for another season.
The logic is fairly straightforward. If Tek stays, he needs to catch less, perhaps being the designated catcher for Lester and Dice K (and possibly Masterson). He is worth keeping for the sole purpose of leadership and pitcher-handling. The Sox will therefore need to find a catcher that can catch the other half of the games, and hopefully provide a bit more offense from the C position. Thus the Sox can no longer afford to have a designated catcher for Wakefield, unless someone thinks it's a good idea for Kevin Cash to get 250+ plate appearances.
PedroKsBambino
Oct 23 2008, 11:05 AM
QUOTE(Vermonter At Large @ Oct 23 2008, 12:02 PM)

I voted no here, because I think that there is no way that the Sox can keep both Wakefield and Varitek, and I'd rather have Tek back for another season.
The logic is fairly straightforward. If Tek stays, he needs to catch less, perhaps being the designated catcher for Lester and Dice K (and possibly Masterson). He is worth keeping for the sole purpose of leadership and pitcher-handling. The Sox will therefore need to find a catcher that can catch the other half of the games, and hopefully provide a bit more offense from the C position. Thus the Sox can no longer afford to have a designated catcher for Wakefield, unless someone thinks it's a good idea for Kevin Cash to get 250+ plate appearances.
I don't see why we should assume Varitek won't catch Wakefield going forward. The rationale for him not doing so has primarily been that it is especially taxing to catch Wake and thus, since Tek is going to need to rest every 4-5 days anyway, that's the optimal time to do so. If we assume more of a 50/50 split at catcher, this rationale largely falls away.
I think the assumption being widely made that they are not compatible is incorrect. It'd be a change, I think, but I don't know why it couldn't occur.
smastroyin
Oct 23 2008, 11:07 AM
I have to say I agree with the frustration of getting the Wakefield start. However, I will readily admit that this is because I am spoiled, have been to many games in many parks, and in turn have lost my aesthetic appreciation of the knuckleball. but I think David gets at one of the points, if Wakefield has been "on" in recent starts, you are excited to see his start. If he has been on a cold streak, you dread what you may see.
absintheofmalaise
Oct 23 2008, 11:14 AM
If Tek is kept around for the back-up/mentoring role and catches 2 of the pitchers, why couldn't the person they bring in catch Wakefield in addition to the other pitchers? Whomever they are able to bring in or promote will, presumably be younger and able to withstand the rigors of catching a knuckleball pitcher. Especially since he would only be catching three games out of 5 and wouldn't have to do much, if any, game preparation with Wakefield like he would with someone else.
Vermonter At Large
Oct 23 2008, 11:20 AM
QUOTE(absintheofmalaise @ Oct 23 2008, 12:14 PM)

If Tek is kept around for the back-up/mentoring role and catches 2 of the pitchers, why couldn't the person they bring in catch Wakefield in addition to the other pitchers? Whomever they are able to bring in or promote will, presumably be younger and able to withstand the rigors of catching a knuckleball pitcher. Especially since he would only be catching three games out of 5 and wouldn't have to do much, if any, game preparation with Wakefield like he would with someone else.
Well ... the main problem is that you're not sure if a guy can catch Wakes until after you've acquired him. What if the Sox pick up somebody like Saltalamacchia (who would not be cheap) only to see him going all Josh Bard while trying to catch Wakes. In theory it's fine, but the reality of catching Wakes is another story.
Regarding the Tek catching Wake - sure he can do it, but the reason you'd be keeping him around would be to work with the young pitchers and/or to match wits with Dice K. He'd be wasted catching Wakes.
Rudy Pemberton
Oct 23 2008, 11:27 AM
QUOTE
Well ... the main problem is that you're not sure if a guy can catch Wakes until after you've acquired him. What if the Sox pick up somebody like Saltalamacchia (who would not be cheap) only to see him going all Josh Bard while trying to catch Wakes. In theory it's fine, but the reality of catching Wakes is another story.
I think there's a massive difference between a guy like Saltalamacchia and a guy like Bard. Despite the one great offensive season Bard had after being traded, there was really no reason to think he had that kind of offensive upside based on what he had done in his pro career. Had Bard been a young guy with loads of potential, I don't think the Sox would have moved him.
Furthermore, there's no reason that the sole role of the backup catcher going forward has to be "Wakefield's catcher". I believe they did what they did in the past because Tek was an important part of the team and allowing him to forget about Wake gave him a consistent day off, both physically and mentally, and allowed him to focus on the other members of the staff.
Buzzkill Pauley
Oct 23 2008, 11:42 AM
QUOTE(David Laurila @ Oct 23 2008, 11:56 AM)

I was having this discussion with someone the other day: whether Wakefied is indeed more inconsistent than the average pitcher, and if he is perceived as being more unreliable simply because he is a knuckleball pitcher. Using this season, and Josh Beckett, as an example, Wakefield had more quality starts and a higher percentage of quality starts. However, because Beckett throws 96 with the knee-buckling curveball, there is a far different perception of what can be expected from him on a given day.
There are many pitchers out there who are no more consistent than Wakefield, but because they're conventional, they are looked at through a different lens. Going by the numbers, which are more important than perception, Wakefield is their equal, if not superior.
See, I think Wake is awesome
because he has achieved an unbelievable record of consistency with such an unreliable pitch. And that's the real problem...the pitch is more subject to game-to-game unreliability. Beckett's got a great curve, but when it's not working he may be able to spot the 4-seamer and 2-seamer to good effect if he's healthy. Wake doesn't have that ability, but he is extremely proficient at finding his knuckler again after he loses it.
The problem, of course, is that in a playoff game, giving him one or two innings to "find" the pitch again may be imprudent even if it only leads to three runs, just like it was imprudent for Tito to leave a hurt Beckett out in game 6 an inning or two longer than he should have. And flat knuckleballs, just like hanging curves, get absolutely pounded by the good-hitting teams he's likely to face in the postseason.
Rudy Pemberton
Oct 23 2008, 11:50 AM
Ultimately, I think Wake is the kind of guy you want making 30-35 starts, but not any 1 particular start. You know where he'll end up over a large enough sample, but if you have to win that one game, his odds aren't that great. Compared to most back of the rotation starters, he'll end up better over the long run, but you defnitely don't want him pitching a must-win game.
NomarsFool
Oct 23 2008, 11:56 AM
If I recall correctly, I thought Varitek was Wake's 'personal catcher' when he was first with the club. Or, maybe it wasn't quite that explicit - but I thought he caught a lot of Wake's games at one point. Personally, I've hated the 'personal catcher' thing quite a bit - we ended up with Mirabelli (who couldn't hit a RH little league pitcher) starting against righties and not against lefties (who he treated like Jack Bauer treats terrorists). But, maybe there was a lot of subjective value to giving Varitek a regular day off every 5th day, rather than have it be irregular (I was not against Varitek sitting, I just didn't like him sitting against RHers).
On another point, I would think that Varitek could add a lot to the team even for pitchers he wasn't catching. I believe he has been a big part of coming up with the game plan against teams for years now, and I would think he would continue to do that - even if the young C was the actual one calling the pitches.