I seriously hope Tek isnt back for next season. He is just beyond terrible at the plate.

Behind it as well. That passed ball was inexcusable.

Tek used to be really good. Now, he's morphed into Rich Gedman.

Its sad too because he seems to be a decent guy with nothing but good intentions. He's just beyond cooked now though. And SJH is right.......the past ball is absolutely inexcusable. If he can't catch the ball they need to put him on the bench and leave him there.

He doesn't seem to move much behind the plate but reaches for pitches instead. It's a fact that with a man on third and one out with Tek coming to bat we have to hope for a two out hit from whoever hits behind him.

Back in 2005, we all knew the last year of the contract (if the Sox were lucky) was going to be bloody awful. So is anyone really surprised?

I hope during the presser this offseason when the Sox announced that Tek won't be offered a contract, Theo will be asked why and he'll respond, "Because we want to see what life is like with a catcher who can hit over .230.

Or "because we don't throw contracts at .220 hitters."

I tend to look at Varitek and the Sox's current situation another way. There is no denying he looks cooked and its clearly giving the opposition easy outs. But if you had told me that the Sox would win one more WS with Varitek on board managing the young pitching - and I fully admit that his impact on the pitching staff's performance is debatable - prior to his signing the his last contract, I would have supported the Sox in their decision to re-up with him. There weren't any truly viable alternatives back then and there almost certainly aren't right now which makes his predictable decline even more painful.

It seems no matter what the Sox try to do in addressing the problem at catcher, it does not work. It remains to be seen if Tek would accept a two year contract or not. However whether he is resigned or not the fact remains the Sox have very little help on the horizon at the catcher position in their system.

What exactly have the Sox done in the past 11 years to change their catching situation? Also, Varitek hasn't really been a vortex of suck until this season, so in other words, they haven't tried a single thing yet.

edit: and if you'll remember, they did draft Kelly Shoppach in the 2nd round to be the heir apparent to Tek, but he was dealt in the Crisp deal prior to the 2006 season. They clearly weren't wrong in their assessment of him.

The Sox should consider themselves lucky. Tek has lowered the bar so far for what a catcher can contribute offensively that all of the other mediocre catchers that might be available now look like solid options.

But let's be real. The only out they have from retaining him (due to veteranship and institutionalism, 'natch) is that this actually amounts to something.

Fortunately, keeping guys like Timlin, Schilling, and Lowell on has shown what huge contributions those veteran players, like Tek, can bring to the team.

Frankly, I am surprised, especially coming off a rebound year offensively where he posted a line of .255/.367/.421 in about 30 more PA than he had this year. It's a sad decomposition to watch, but for me it's certainly been a surprise.

You can't include Lowell here. DL time means not getting his counting stats. An argument can be made for hurting your team while playing hurt but this is the Tek!!! discussion.

A friend told me today that Josh Bard refused assignment to the minors and is now a free agent. The biggest mistake of the 2006 season was giving up on Bard and Cla too soon for nothing but 'Belli in return. Bard could be an excellent, cheap option for us behind the plate.

Gosh, I figured the 'old players get hurt a lot, decline a lot, and generally are only excellent at getting paid a lot of money' argument would have shone through.

Lowell getting hurt is precisely the point.

If nothing else there is an opportunity cost associated with such signings.

Josh Bard stinks. He flat out stinks. He posted an OPS+ of 51 this season. He's also going to be 31 next season.

Man, it's tough finding a catcher that sucked worse than Tek this year, but your excellent option sure did. Hitting aside, Bard allowed 174 SB with only 20 CS over the last two seasons. I know the Padres say they "do not care" about SBA, but that is a joke.

He didn't stink in 06. Did he sink drastically in 07/08, and was this totally hopeless decline, or was this year a possible aberration (which people do have)? There aren't many options out there so I'd assume we're pursuing any and all at this point.

I think that's the key right there. But does "looks cooked" mean that he is cooked? Granted, Tek has had a brutal year offensively, but do we know that we're seeing something that can't be turned around? Tek is 36, but Carlton Fisk hit .221/.263/.337 with 14 home runs at age 38, and the following year he hit .256/.321/.460 with 23 home runs. A year after that, he hit .277/.377/.542 with 19 home runs. And while there's no denying that Fisk was a freak of nature longevity wise, he was just as good in the two years that followed, maintaining productivity into his mid 40s.

Can we expect Varitek to do the same? Not necessarily, but do we know that he isn't capable of rebounding offensively? I think this a question that remains to be answered, and given Tek's work ethic, we might be pleasantly surprised. That's not to say that the Red Sox should break the bank and give him a lengthy deal, but assuming that his days as a productive player are over may prove to be false.

As Scout noted, he can't control the running game, which, trust me, the Red Sox care about. And I'd feel comfortable saying his output in his year 30 season was more an issue of decline than just an aberration. I'd rather not waste the time on him.

You don't "pursue" Josh Bard or those of his replacement value ilk. If forced to by circumstance, you relent and reluctantly accept him. That's about as far as he goes.

Don't Tek's decent numbers batting righty and terrible production batting lefty practically scream out for a platoon partner, perhaps a younger catcher who bats lefty and who breaks in catching half the games with Tek starting occasionally against righties to get to half the starts?

The problem is in getting Tek to accede to this reduced role for 2 years at $6 million per year or something like that.

Checking at espn.com, I find that Tek was actually not just decent but excellent in his righty at bats, .284/.378/.484 this year, (but an execrable .201/.293/.323 as a lefty). Oddly, Teks numbers in 2007 were almost the same righty and lefty. He got about as much better righty this year as he turned to shit lefty. I don't know what to make of that.

Tek's future depends heavily on Tek's demands. If he wants the unquestioned starter role at top dollar then you have to pass. Sure, he could bounce back. Sure, his work with the pitchers might save a billion runs. But a late 30s catcher who's already dropped off considerably offensively (and some would say defensively some as well) is a tough investment.

Now, if he will take a short and/or incentive deal to be in more of a split role. Groom another catcher or coexist with a second veteran, then that could certainly work.

Will he do that? Will Boras be interested in that? Seems unlikely to me.

When they do sign him I think we will all hope for the best and would enjoy being wrong about his offensive demise.

I wouldn't even accept Bard. If we are looking at last resort, all the one-step-up-from-shitty catchers wanted multi year and million dollar deals, Texas wouldn't deal, and most importaintly Lou Marson's price tag was more than Bowden and Buchholz, you go into camp with Kottaras and Brown and see who wins the role of catching the majority of the games. I am intrigued with Kottaras, maybe the most on the board, but Brown is a defensive stud who just so happened to hit .290/.377/.471 in AAA right before entering his pre-prime age 27 season. I'll take him at 400K over another year of watching Tek embarrass himself even if he his asking price is just 1/$10m, let alone anything for multiple seasons.

The scariest thing about Tek's season is that from May 10 to May 21, Varitek had a 9-game stretch in which he hit .448 / .543 / .897.

Take away that stretch, and his overall line of .220 / .313 / .359 drops to a revolting .203 / .296 / .320.

I hate cherry picking like this, but seriously, he was 9 good games away from being legitimately worse than Kevin Cash. Think about that for a second.

I don't think I'd re-sign Varitek for 1/$4M. I just wouldn't. It's time to move on. If the Sox bring him back, they're just paying an assload of catch for the devil they know. I'd rather they spent less and rolled the dice on a guy that, at worst, puts up the same line as Varitek.

1/$10M would be robbery of the highest order.

I think beyond this season, the best the Sox can do with Varitek is offer him arbitration. I believe he's a type A free agent and if so, a couple draft picks would look mighty tempting. I'd imagine a team like the Mets who are in need of a leader figure would bite and give him at least a 2 year deal.

And even if Varitek accepts arb, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for one year. As Rough said, he can still hit righties at a more than reasonable clib. Pair him in a platoon with Kottaras and I think you can get some solid production out of the catcher position. One thing is for sure though, the Sox can not afford to keep him in a full-time starting role.

Problem is, if Varitek returns, with Terry Francona as the manager, he's not being platooned. And this doesn't even begin to address the issue of Wakefield's personal caddy, should he decide to come back.

Varitek would stand to earn ~$13M or so via arbitration. That makes me sick to my stomach.

I'm responding to this post because it needs emphasis.

If he goes to arbitration, Varitek would receive somewhere around 12-13M, as Corsi pointed out.

Thats not a guy who starts the 30% of the time a lefty is on the mound. Thats not a guy who starts the day after a night game.

Thats your starting catcher.

I get what you and Corsi are saying, but realistically what are the better options here? I'm not advocating Varitek be the starter, I'm just thinking that there's a reasonable chance he gets a multi-year offer from someone. And if that's the case, I think you have to offer him arbitration in hopes to pick up a couple of draft picks. Absolute worst case scenario, paying Jason Varitek 13 million is not going to sink this team next year. The Sox have a little wiggle room in terms of how they spend based on what they've done the past few offseasons.

But, hopefully, not OUR starting catcher. If this season goes down the toilet in the next few games and Tek still shows zero signs of not being burnt to a crisp, it's time to move on. That would just be a terrible waste of money. Trade Buchholz for a good young catcher or sign a veteran catcher who's a very good defensive player and live with the lousy atbats. But don't pay Tek $10-13M to do what he's been doing the last few years. Time for Theo to Cowboy Up and do what's best for the team...again. If this season ends up in a din of cowbells, as it seems likely to do (pray for good Wake) then this offseason would be the perfect time to fine-tune the team. Start with Tek, Cora, and Timlin. Adios, amigos! Target an ace pitcher to spend your big bucks on. See how Lowell and Beckett are doing in a month and then decide if they have to be replaced as well. Find another dependable reliever if you can. Trade Lugo for that reliever or your Cora replacement.

But if Tek wants someone to pay him big money for what he's already done and not for what he's going to do in the future, then throw him a big party, wish him the best, and give him a great reference; ...just DON'T sign him!

Sure, maybe someone wants to give him more money than that, but a multi year 2/12 or 2/14 is not better than going to arbitration.

Paying Varitek 13M would not sink the team. Having him play 130 games and having him hit .200 (or worse!) might sink the team. Having him starting games in October 2009 when he might be significantly worse than he is now might sink the team. Not giving the job to someone who might actually outperform Varitek, whether that be Brown, Kottaras, or a free agent ..... thats not good for the team.

George Kottaras and/or Dusty Brown. I don't see how it's possible for either of them to be any worse than Varitek is right now, and that goes both offensively and defensively. Except that they won't cost even $1 million, let alone the $10-12 million Tek would probably get in the irrational FA market or arbitration. Kottaras has offensive skills that would seem to mesh well with the big club's philosophy, even if his power outburst this year is a fluke...he takes a lot of pitches and has at worst very good doubles power. Even if his defense is average, which seems about right, it's still probably an upgrade over Varitek's defense at this point (notwithstanding those intangibles...). And if you want a good defensive player who isn't a complete offensive bust, Dusty Brown would fit that bill very nicely.

I think Kottaras and Brown would make a very complementary catching pair in 2009, with the allocation of playing time adjusted according to performance and need. The millions allocated potentially for Varitek ought to be spent elsewhere.

I could get on board with this. But I have a very hard time believing the Sox will go with two rookies at the catcher position. Maybe they go with one, sign a free agent, and stash the other in Pawtucket. But even then, looking at the list of potential free agent catchers, I'm not sure that's a realistic option either.

I think the opportunity to pick up a few draft picks coupled with a lack of a significant upgrade at the position being available will cause the Sox to at least take the chance of offering Varitek arbitration. And when I say significant upgrade available at the position I'm including the intangibles that go beyond the numbers as well as on-field production. Not saying I agree with that line of thinking, but the Sox do appear to place a high value on those aspects.

You know, I think it depends on who the other catcher is. If the Sox give up a player like Buchholz to get a catcher, I think that would be a big enough hint to Francona that this guy was the future and he needed to be in the lineup a lot.

One other point, let's please stop hating players because they get old. It's tough to watch, I certainly understand the sentiment behind wanting these guys replaced, but sometimes I think people cross over into actually disliking these guys as if they're going out there trying to fail. Players get old and when they get old their skills decline and it becomes tougher to keep them healthy.

I think with Varitek, the FO got a pretty decent return, we knew it was an overpay in terms of years as soon as the deal was signed, but for him to only have one completely disastrous season seems like a positive. It would be foolish to expect him to bounce back, so if he returns, it has to be with the understanding that he's going to lose a lot of PT.

I disagree with the assessment that the FO got their money's worth. They got three great months, then a year and a half of suck, then a year of ok, then another year of disastrous crap.

I agree with the sentiment that guys just get old, this is why many thought signing Tek for 4 years was a mistake in the first place. Regardless, the bigger consequence might be that someone this is the one position where they haven't done much of anything to address the future. I think you have to give Theo et al a lot of credit for their work here, but I remain mystified at the fact that they gave away their only viable looking catching prospect as a throw in to get the Coco deal done.

Well, I'd think they'll likely pursue a trade for a catcher this winter to address the issue.

Tek is done as a useful full time major league ballplayer. He might have some value as a part-timer, as long as he gives up hitting from the left side of the dish (.201/.293/.323 hitting left-handed, .284/.378/.484 hitting right handed). But I'd certainly give him no more than 1 year at about $2 million or so at this point. If he's deluded enough to think he's still a good full time catcher who should continue to switch hit, thank him for his service and let him walk.

Frankly, for a guy being handsomely paid this year, his stubbornness in not giving up the switch hitting when it's clear that he can't do it anymore, combined with his rumored anger at being pinch-hit for after a disastrous offensive year (if rumor is true) is extremely disappointing.

Offer him arbitration to get the draft pick(s). There's no way Boras lets him agree to arbitration and delay his last shot at a multi-year deal.

So its just that simple?

You dont think Boras would have fully gauged the market before declining arbitration? You think that if come December, the best offer Boras has received is 2 years, 5M per year, that he is still going to advise Varitek to decline a 1 year, 12M contract because a better one might come along in later months?

I'm just curious as to why folks think Varitek would command $12-$13 million for one year in arbitration? Is it because of his veteran status, number of games caught and current contract, because his offensive numbers recently (decline) and advancing age would not in my mind mean an arbitrator would be convinced to award him more than $10M, given the seasons (good) that preceded his past contract that netted him $10M per. Is there some formula, or is this just guess work, and assessing how much more many other catchers suck relative to Tek?

Basically, the past is the best indicator of the future.

It always starts out with the players previous contract and goes from there. Varitek is coming off a 4/40 (4M bonus, 9M per season) so he basically made 10M a year.

The team and the player both submit a number they think is fair. The team can not offer less than 80% of the players current contract. The arbitrators decide which number is more reasonable based on the arguments presented. Keep in mind, no player has EVER gone to arbitration and received less than his current contract. Thats because no team has been dumb (or gutsy) enough to offer arbitration to a player expecting him to take a pay cut.

You cant go into arbitration and argue "We think Varitek is a 6M player and wanted draft picks and got screwed when he accepted, so we request you find in our favor and award Varitek 8M." If the Sox go in with an 8M offer and Boras/Tek go in with a 10, 11, 12M offer, Boras/Tek will win. If the Sox offer 8 and Boras/Tek request 14 or 16 or something extreme, thats where the arbitrators will really have to make a tough decision. But it would not favor the Sox in the least to go in with a number less than 10M. Maybe they can offer 10M, have Boras/Tek ask for 12ish, and go in there and win. So then they would have him for 10M. But the odds of him getting less than 10M, historically speaking, are about 0.

Why in the world do the Red Sox continue to allow Varitek to switch hit?

From Baseball-Reference:

Tek as a lefty this year is: .201/.293/.323 in 328 ABs.

From the right side of the plate he's: .284/.378/.478 in 95 ABs

Further, Varitek has hit 5 of his 13 homeruns from the right side. In fact all of his numbers are better from the right side.

Granted, from the right side, he's facing left handers but I think given his slow bat speed, he'd be more productive exclusively hitting from the right side at this point.

A lot of the points being made in this thread are Groundhog Day-esque rehashes of this thread from just a few weeks ago -- especially those on Tek's value, his pronounced L-R splits, his decline phase, and the Sox' internal options to replace him.

I doubt this is why the dopes and mods want new threads started.

Boras is a master salesman - he will show up with his presentation and convince some GM that Jason Varitek is not only a Clubhouse Leader (Captain of the two-time World Champion Boston Red Sox!), but has played a major role in the success of Jon Lester, Jonathan Papelbon, etc., and that his unparalleled skills behind the plate are just what Team X needs to take the next step with its young and promising pitching staff.

I dont doubt thats the angle he will push, but if a month into free agency the best offer he has received is 1 or 2 years and not worth more than 12M total ..... he is accepting arb. He isnt going to sit back and wait for a market to develop when/if one doesnt exist.

Will Boras also suggest that he played a major role in the regression of Clay Buchholz? I'm pretty tired of the argument that "tek's value to the pitching staff is hard to over-state." Given Schilling's comments about tek earlier this Summer, I accept the fact that the pitchers love him and I ascribe a value to that. But it does not outweigh what has been his precipitous offensive decline, and what I would argue has been a substantial defensive decline as well.

If the Red Sox do not offer him Arb, and only offer him a 1 or 2 year deal at $6 million per year, with the understanding that he will have more of a split with a younger catcher, what are his options? If he says no, then I say god bless and thank you for the contributions, and good luck finding a richer deal elsewhere. If he finds that richer deal, then more power to him, but I would not offer arbitration. Can you imagine the self-righteous articles in the local papers highlighting the "disrespect" that the Red Sox are showing him for not signing him to a deal but rather forcing arbitration on him at a number like $10 million?

Split the topic from the other Tek thread. [Hey, people... this isn't NYYFANs. We don't have one OFFICIAL TEK Thread. Start new threads.] Also added a poll, since that seems appropriate.

Except, apparently, hitting home runs?

I've always been pro-Tek, but things really have started to crumble. This might be the fastest Red Sox fall-off since Jim Rice. At the start of August, I thought a 2/20 offer would be the top of the limit for him. Now, I wouldn't go even that far. If he truly wants more money at this point, he's going elsewhere.

1 HR every 74 PA LH versus 1 every 22 PA RH.

I was with you thinking 2/20 tops while others were talking 3 and 4 year deals over the spring/summer, but at this point I voted "Not worth it at any cost." He needs to go.