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Sons of Sam Horn > Boston Sports > Rick Middleton's Porn 'Stache: Bruins Forum
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BigMike
QUOTE (Alacoldart @ Mar 8 2006, 02:37 AM)
Build around Bergeron and Boyes.  Try to hold onto Marco Sturm and Hannu Toivonen.  Any and all of the rest should be for sale.  It's a shame what this franchise has come to these days.
*



i don't disagree with your general point, but Brad Stuart needs to be on the must keep list. He is easily the best defenseman this franchise has had since the day #77 left town, and it isn't even close
Alacoldart
QUOTE (BigMike @ Mar 7 2006, 10:12 PM)
i don't disagree with your general point, but Brad Stuart needs to be on the must keep list.  He is easily the best defenseman this franchise has had since the day #77 left town, and it isn't even close
*


I agree, but the only problem is that Stuart could fetch them a lot more on the trade market and they can't afford to pick-and-choose more than a couple of players to absolutely hold onto. Stuart may have to be a casualty to improve the team in the long run. They may be able to get someone relatively close to his level of play by trading a Raycroft or a Thomas.

Whatever happened to Brad Isbister? Did the team get rid of him due to the exceeding of the Brad Quotient on the roster?
BigMike
QUOTE (Alacoldart @ Mar 8 2006, 03:16 AM)
I agree, but the only problem is that Stuart could fetch them a lot more on the trade market and they can't afford to pick-and-choose more than a couple of players to absolutely hold onto.  Stuart may have to be a casualty to improve the team in the long run.  They may be able to get someone relatively close to his level of play by trading a Raycroft or a Thomas.

*


Stuart is probably a top 30 defenseman in the NHL right now. There is no way you are going to get anyone close to his talent level by trading a Andy Raycroft or Tim Thomas (despite Thomas' hot streak I still don't think you'd get much more than a bag of pucks for him)

Sure I'd trade Stuart in the right deal. I'd trade Bergeron in the right deal. But it is highly unlikely you make yourself better by trading Bergeron, and it is highly unlikely you make your team better by trading Stuart

They have some good prospects. All reports are that Klaus, Karsums, and Krecji all look very good this year. There is a good chance one from that group will be a contributor by this time next year.

They will have about 15 million in cap money to play with, maybe more if Zhamnov retires. And honestly right now Hal Gil is the UFA who gave the most to the team this year, and he is replacable.

To me they are in a position to turn things around really quickly.

Trade Sammy, hopefully you can get a young potential top 6 forward, even if you have to add to the deal somewhat.

Trade Leetch if someone will give value. He is useless here, and must be wishing for a deal. Hopefully some contender thinks they are a power play specialist away and will give a high pick or a good young prospect.

Move Razor if there is value out there. Otherwise you might need to wait until summer.

Personqally I would sign PJ, but then again, if he isn't interested, and someone makes a really significant offer, you make the deal

There are a hanful of other guys who could go if the offer is right, guys like Green, Gill, even Boynton. In the right package. If a combination of Boynton and Sammy, or Boynton and Razor is able to bring in a real stud prospect I'd make the deal.

Yeah your forwards will need a lot of work in FA, but with upwards of 15 million to spend, you can bring in some very solid ofense. But the plus is that you already have a quality defensive core in place
slidingsideways
Boston, two minutes, too many Brads on the ice.

Isbister got injured back before the Olympic break. I think it was his knee, but don't quote me.

Edited to add that Google says it's his ankle.
A Red Canuck
He was terrible in Toronto ....

QUOTE
The Boston Bruins have claimed Mariusz Czerkawski on waivers from the Toronto Maple Leafs.

"We're just running short of bodies right now because of injury," Boston GM Mike O'Connell said. "And we’re having a tough time scoring goals. So maybe (Czerkawski) can score some for us, give us a bit of a spark. It's worth a try


TSN.ca
Eddie Jurak
QUOTE (BigMike @ Mar 7 2006, 10:12 PM)
i don't disagree with your general point, but Brad Stuart needs to be on the must keep list.  He is easily the best defenseman this franchise has had since the day #77 left town, and it isn't even close
Absolutely. I think Stuart will be a legit Norris candidate in his best years.

Stuart was paid $1.9 million this year, and will be the same next year. I think that puts Nick Boynton's contract demands in perspective. Boynton is a good defenseman, but not in Stuart's league.

I don't think there's any realistic scenario in which moving Brad Stuart is a good idea. Next year he is the Bruins' clear #1 guy.

I think MOC made two huge mistakes in buolding the team this year:

1. He spent most of his budget on UFA players, and left his own RFAs to the last minute. That left him telling Nick Boynton and Andrew Raycroft that he would have given them more but he couldn't because of the cap. This would have been a much better team with Raycroft and Boynton signed and in camp on time.

2. He built a team that looked good in September, but sucked during the season. I think the major mistake he made was handing out guaranteed jobs to basically his whole team. 12 forwards were signed to guaranteed deals, forcing the team to get rid of promising younger guys like Hilbert and Stastny, and eliminating any competition for jobs. Guys like McEachern should never have been signed. Every team needs a few guys like Pat Leahy and Eric Nickulas, and the Bruins set it up so that those guys had no chance to win a job.

Who is signed for next year?

Goal: No one. Toivonen and Raycroft will be RFAs, and Thomas will be a UFA.

Defense: Brad Stuart for $1.9 million, a steal. No one else. Mark Stuart and Jonathan Sigalet arer signed, but neither is likely to make the Bruins next season. Brian Leetch, Hal Gill, and Jiri Slegr are UFAs. Leetch is the only one I'd want back, and only in a reduced role (#5 or 6 defenseman/PP specialist). Nick Boynton, Milan Jurcina, Andrew Alberts, and David Tanabe are RFAs.

Forwards: Glen Murray is signed for 3 more years. Alexei Zhamnot is signed for 2 more years, and we can only hope the Bruins and Alexei will come to some sort of retirement arrangement. Travis Green and Shawn McEachern are signed for 1 more year. The San Jose guys, Sturm and Primeau, are signed for one more year. Sergei Samsonov, PJ Axelsson, Brad Isbister, and Tom Fitzgerald are UFAs. Patrice Bergeron and Brad Boyes are RFAs.

This year, MOC needs to work on his RFAs first, instead of making big plays for free agents and then trying to convince the RFAs to settle for the scraps that are left over. The Bruins do have a solid core of young talent to build on, so they should do it, instead of messing with UFAs while they antagonize their core.
erfus
QUOTE (Eddie Jurak @ Mar 8 2006, 01:05 PM)
Stuart was paid $1.9 million this year, and will be the same next year.  I think that puts Nick Boynton's contract demands in perspective.  Boynton is a good defenseman, but not in Stuart's league.


Are you sure about that money? I remember reading in a KPD article that the combined salary for the 3 ex-Sharks would increase to 5.9M next year.
2005 salaries (tsn.ca)
Sturm 2M
Stuart 1.9M
Primeau 1.1M

All 3 are entering into their walk year next season I believe (Stuart will have 8 yrs of NHL time after the 06-07 season). I think Boston has to get off their arse and sign Stuart this offseason to avoid a Samsonovish problem, not to mention maximize the return they rec'd for Joe.

As for next offseason, remember the AHL loophole that allowed NJ to clear cap space w/r/t Alex Zhamnov. This will be a critical test of the ownership's committment to winning. If Zhamnov's carcass is allowed to take up 4+M in cap space and 2nd line center ice time, the season could be over before it starts.
Eddie Jurak
QUOTE (erfus @ Mar 8 2006, 02:04 PM)
I think Boston has to get off their arse and sign Stuart this offseason to avoid a Samsonovish problem, not to mention maximize the return they rec'd for Joe.
Are they allowed to sign extend Stuart? I thought they would have to wait until after Jan. 1, 2007.
erfus
QUOTE (Eddie Jurak @ Mar 8 2006, 02:27 PM)
Are they allowed to sign extend Stuart? I thought they would have to wait until after Jan. 1, 2007.
*


Well, that's a heckuva point. I didn't know if that deadline was a 1st year of the CBA thing or what. You know what would be helpful? If the NHL/PA would actually post that thing. Perhaps it hasn't been entirely finalized, even as of now.
SpikeMyOwen
QUOTE (A Red Canuck @ Mar 8 2006, 05:57 PM)
He was terrible in Toronto ....
[url="http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=157665&hubname="]TSN.ca[/url]
[right][snapback]221802[/snapback][/right][/quote]
[quote]The Boston Bruins have claimed Mariusz Czerkawski on waivers from the Toronto Maple Leafs.

"We're just running short of bodies right now because of injury," Boston GM Mike O'Connell said. "And we’re having a tough time scoring goals. So maybe (Czerkawski) can score some for us, give us a bit of a spark. It's worth a try


I read this quote as well, it just doesn't fill me with confidence, not the type of thing you want to here the GM say, "It's worth a try..."
BTownBeckett
The Bruins will have to do an amazing job evaluating returns on these guys if they are really going to "blow it up." A guy like Samsonov, for instance, is very difficult. He is an incredibly talented offensive player and still young at 27. Can the B's re-sign him? Well of course they CAN, but will they? If the B's can't get something respectable out of trading Samsonov then the FO will confirm what we all have dreaded believing, that the FO cares more about $$$ than winning. Murray is another example. While considerably older (and thus, I would be far more willing to trade him) Murray has put up totals of 35, 44 and 32 goals his last three seasons with the B's. Leetch is another. While he has a sizable contract ($4 MM right?) I believe it was just a one year thing so the B's probably won't sign him again anyway.

The Leetch deal would seal it that the B's are sellers. If he stayed it wouldn't cost the B's anything in the long run. If he goes, that just means they mailed it in. Am I against them mailing it in? Not really, just as long as they make real investments in the future instead of skimping out for profit.

To go back to the "who to keep" list, Stuart has to be on it. Of course no one would surrender Boyes, Bergeron, Jurcina, etc., but of the "veterans" Stuart (at 26, 27 by next year) is as solid a building block as the B's have had. The goalies are tough. Toivonen will be on the team, of course, but will Thomas get a deal elsewhere? Obviously not the way he's going right now, but who's to say he will ever play like he did during that stretch pre-olympic break again? I am in the line of thinking that says not to give up on a 25-year old goalie who put up three straight years (four if you include the Finnish league last year) under 3.00 GAA. He hasn't been that bad since the break. You have to give a guy who has been a starter for the past 3 years a break coming back into a league as skilled as the NHL. It's not like a young guy like him can be sharp coming off the bench in only a couple games.

The Bruins may make a huge mistake if and when they trade Raycroft because he has shown the ability to be a starting goaltender and he's very young. I like Toivonen as much as the next guy, but to put all your stock in one goalie just doesn't sound like a smart idea. I don't have as much confidence that Thomas will be able to stay at the level he showed pre-olympics and spending draft picks on goalies instead of defensemen and centermen shouldn't sit too well with B's fans.
A Red Canuck
TSN reporting Samsonov has been dealt to Edmonton.
No word on who returns to Boston
Smiling Joe Hesketh
QUOTE (A Red Canuck @ Mar 9 2006, 03:10 PM)
TSN reporting Samsonov has been dealt to Edmonton.
No word on who returns to Boston
*

SIGH.

I figured he might be gone. Really curious to see who's coming back.
BigMike
QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Mar 9 2006, 08:15 PM)
SIGH.

I figured he might be gone. Really curious to see who's coming back.
*


No kidding I've spent the last 30 minutes desperately clikcing refresh as a variety of sites trying to find out.

Hopefully they got value for Sammy, considering the really high value other UFAs went for samy should bring a very high pick and a very good prospect

I'll be dissapointed if Leetch hasn't been dealt, but maybe they allowed to let him decide and he decided to stay. They really need to take minutes from him and give them to Alberts who unlike Leetch has a future
Eddie Jurak
Here's a Samsonov link.

No word on what the Bruins got in return? When has that ever happened before?

Could be that no one wanted Leetch - the Rangers picked up Ozolinsh for a 3rd.
A Red Canuck
TSN now saying it's for Reasoner and draft picks.
BigMike
QUOTE (A Red Canuck @ Mar 9 2006, 08:43 PM)
TSN now saying it's for Reasoner and draft picks.
*


Better be high draft picks, at least 2 #2's. Reasoner is basically nothing

Nashville gave up kris beech, and a first round pick for that slug Brendan Witt. It just baffles the mind. I wouldn't have traded Gil for Witt.

QUOTE
Could be that no one wanted Leetch


Yerah, I guess everyone isn't as dumb as MO. 4 million for someone that washed up
NickEsasky
Reasoner, a second, and a minor leaguer.

OC is just fucking awful.
erfus
QUOTE (NickEsasky @ Mar 9 2006, 03:52 PM)
Reasoner, a second, and a minor leaguer. 

OC is just fucking awful.
*


Hopefully the minor leaguer is Marc-Antoine Pouliot, otherwise this deal is really pathetic.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...p3?pid=00061459
A Red Canuck
it's rumored to be either Pouliot or Danny Syvret
Smiling Joe Hesketh
QUOTE (A Red Canuck @ Mar 9 2006, 03:56 PM)
it's rumored to be either Pouliot or Danny Syvret
*

It better be Pouliot or that's an abysmal trade.

Reasoner's career high in points is 31.
Eddie Jurak
I recently commented on HFboards that I didn't want to see the Bruins add a mediocre vet to try and make a playoff run - my actual words were "the last thing the Bruins need is another Marty McInnis".

Looks like MOC went and shipped out Samsonov for a "poor man's Marty McInnis". Reasoner is McInnis without the 170 NHL goals.

A second round pick is not so bad. Bruins second round picks ion the last 3 drafts:

Patrice Bergeron
Masi Marjamaki
David Krejci
Martin Karsums
Petr Kalus

Along with Bergeron we got one bust (Marjamaki) and three kids that are tearing it up in juniors this year.

I wonder if the minor leaguer is a real prospect?
Dropkick Izzy
TSN sez Yan Stastny is the minor leaguer.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...pid%5B%5D=63199

Doesn't seem like we got much in return, but I guess that was bound to happen with a guy coming up on free agency at the end of the year. Reasoner was a team worst -12. Yeesh!

EDIT: That would be Yan Stastny of former B's 8th round draft pick fame who was traded to EDM in Aug. for a 4th rounder. The wheels on the bus go round and round ...
SoxScout
Former Boston College grad Marty Reasoner, prospect Yan Stastny, and a second-round pick are reported to be coming to the Bruins in return.
Smiling Joe Hesketh
That's a shitty return. Reasoner is a lousy player, and Stasny's numbers in the minors are extremely unimpressive.
BigMike
QUOTE (Dropkick Izzy @ Mar 9 2006, 09:07 PM)
TSN sez Yan Stastny is the minor leaguer.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...pid%5B%5D=63199

Doesn't seem like we got much in return, but I guess that was bound to happen with a guy coming up on free agency at the end of the year.  Reasoner was a team worst -12.  Yeesh!
*


That is so bizzare. Stazny is a former Bruins Prospect who demanded a trade last August because of a contract dispute with the Bruins.

Stazny was REALLY GOOD in Germany the past couple of years

But it looks like we got dramatically less for Samsanov than the Caps got for Brendan Witt
John Dopson
I cannot believe Brendan Witt pulled a decent prospect and a 1st and Samsonov gets a prospect the B's rate as a 4th rounder, plus a 2nd and drek.
BTownBeckett
I had to open my damn mouth... my post was at 3:00 with edits to 3:03, trade is posted in this thread minutes later. God I hate the B's FO.
NickEsasky
How does OC still have a job.

Rhetorical question. He is Jacob's puppet. How long until our latest young talented players are gone because they get too pricy for our owner in Buffalo.
Eddie Jurak
Got to love this comment from MOC

QUOTE
“Marty is an excellent playmaker and we were looking to increase our opportunities to score,” said O’Connell. “We have always considered Yan to be a strong prospect and we are happy to have him return to our organization.”


I'm not as against the trade as some (the B's were between a rock and a hard place with Samsonov), but MOC ought to be fired simply for calling Reasoner (78 assists in 292 games) an excellent playmaker.

I have tickets to tonight's game. The interesting question is whether the Bruins will show up and play... or mail in the rest of the season. They are still barely within range of the playoff mix, and they weren;t exactly winning many games because of Samsonov.
erfus
QUOTE (Eddie Jurak @ Mar 9 2006, 04:51 PM)
Got to love this comment from MOC
I'm not as against the trade as some (the B's were between a rock and a hard place with Samsonov), but MOC ought to be fired simply for calling Reasoner (78 assists in 292 games) an excellent playmaker. 

I have tickets to tonight's game.  The interesting question is whether the Bruins will show up and play... or mail in the rest of the season.  They are still barely within range of the playoff mix, and they weren;t exactly winning many games because of Samsonov.
*


What a sad end to Samsonov's time in Boston. He was always the most dynamic player to watch out there, even if he never put up those 80+pt seasons folks still believe he's capable of. I think he'll flourish in Edmonton with good ice, quick linemates, and in an organization that values offensive ability.

I can't help but wonder: if MOC was desperate enough to sell of Samsonov for that steaming pile of return, what sort of horrid offers was he getting for Leetch? Puppet of JJ or not, I will eat my hat if MOC is still the GM come draft day. JJ will sacrifice someone to the altar of public opinion.
PedroSpecialK
IMO, it's not all that bad a return. Sure, the Witt deal was an atrocity, but that shouldn't be the standard by which MOC has to trade. I actually commend him on his guts to trade Thornton and now Samsonov, with Samsonov constantly injured and being one of the most overrated players in the game. I don't especially like Reasoner or Statsny, but the 2nd round pick is nice. He would've left for nothing in return at the end of the season anyways - why not pick up a NHL caliber player, good prospect, and a high pick?
BigMike
QUOTE (erfus @ Mar 9 2006, 10:02 PM)
What a sad end to Samsonov's time in Boston.  He was always the most dynamic player to watch out there, even if he never put up those 80+pt seasons folks still believe he's capable of.  I think he'll flourish in Edmonton with good ice, quick linemates, and in an organization that values offensive ability.

I can't help but wonder:  if MOC was desperate enough to sell of Samsonov for that steaming pile of return, what sort of horrid offers was he getting for Leetch?  Puppet of JJ or not, I will eat my hat if MOC is still the GM come draft day.  JJ will sacrifice someone to the altar of public opinion.
*


I assume there just weren't offers for Leetch. Maybe Mike should have taken the Poti deal back in Janueary, but then again I think I prefer having no one to having Poti.

In terms of Sammy, I remember watching him as a 16 year old in Walter Brown Arena. he and Robert Dome (a 16 year old from Slovakia I think) we supposed to tear the NHL apart someday. And of course Sammy came right in and was an amazingly mature 19 year old, and was able to play from Day 1 and produce right away. But honestly he just never got much better

Maybe there is some player out there who Sammy will really click with and suddenly put up 100 points next year, but honestly I think he is just always going to be a pretty good second line player who teases you with potential to be more.

Stazny is a guy who should come in and immediately center the Bruins 3rd line. They need to get an idea over the last 19 games if Yan can fill that role next year. He will never be a stud, but 7 months ago, many people thought he was ready to step in and take over as a 3rd line center. The only issue is can Primeu play a wing. Otherwise maybe Stazny plays wing, but he should see 12-15 minutes a night the rest of the way.

Maybe Reasoner will click with Murray. I don't expect much, but Marty probably does have more offensive skills than whatever the Bruins have used at 2nd line Center since Joe left town.
SpikeMyOwen
sad.gif


That's about all i have to say, even when you went to games and the Bs were brutal to watch it was fun watching Sami fly and stickhandle ... oh well.

I wonder does Jacobs sell the team soon, they are pretty much crap now anyway, we can only hope he sells them to someone that will invest the time in them not to mention some personal feelings.
RoDaddy
I was also amazed at OC's assessment of Reasoner ("Marty is an excellent playmaker, and we were looking to increase our opportunities to score") - one of the stupidest quotes I have EVER heard by any FO guy! Does he even know the statistics of the guy he just traded for? Sammy was a semi-disappointment. At his best, he did score almost a point a game, which was fine. But I really thought he would be a 40+ or even 50+ goal scorer, instead of never even breaking 30. Entertaining and exciting? Yes. Productive? He could've/should've been so much more.
BTownBeckett
QUOTE (PedroSpecialK @ Mar 9 2006, 05:20 PM)
IMO, it's not all that bad a return. Sure, the Witt deal was an atrocity, but that shouldn't be the standard by which MOC has to trade. I actually commend him on his guts to trade Thornton and now Samsonov, with Samsonov constantly injured and being one of the most overrated players in the game. I don't especially like Reasoner or Statsny, but the 2nd round pick is nice. He would've left for nothing in return at the end of the season anyways - why not pick up a NHL caliber player, good prospect, and a high pick?
*

That is the problem. That statement assumes that the B's are going to continue their money grubbing ways. Would the B's have been able to sign Samsonov? There is no question they would have. This is not the Tampa Bay Rays looking to trade away Julio Lugo here, or some NFL team cutting big contract guys to fit under a cap. The Bruins have money, they have revenue and they stuff it under their f*cking pillows. That is the problem with this deal, and that is the problem with this FO/Ownership. The end of this season may be one of the most dysmal things to watch in the history of Bruins' hockey.
BTownBeckett
Oh my God. They are interviewing MOC right now and he said that this deal makes them better "now and in the future."

Interest in Leetch, Gill Axelsson...

Didn't want to give up players just for draft picks.

Injury to Toivonen made trading at that position, difficult, says he believes in Raycroft.

Says Stratsny is comparable to Boyes though not as gifted offensively.

Says Isbister will be back soon, maybe Axelsson after.

Thomas was a surprise...

I think I'm going to hurl.
SpikeMyOwen
QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Mar 10 2006, 12:19 AM)
Oh my God.  They are interviewing MOC right now and he said that this deal makes them better "now and in the future."

Interest in Leetch, Gill Axelsson...

Didn't want to give up players just for draft picks.

Injury to Toivonen made trading at that position, difficult, says he believes in Raycroft.

Says Stratsny is comparable to Boyes though not as gifted offensively.

Says Isbister will be back soon, maybe Axelsson after.

Thomas was a surprise...

I think I'm going to hurl.
*


Thomas was a suprise...after the year he had last year???

Wow.

How's this for a suprise...

"Mike i'm selling the team to a group of investors fronted by Ray Borque, oh and you're fired."
BigMike
QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Mar 10 2006, 12:08 AM)
That is the problem.  That statement assumes that the B's are going to continue their money grubbing ways.  Would the B's have been able to sign Samsonov?  There is no question they would have. 
*


I am quite sure they came to the conclusions that the price for Sammy would far outweigh his value, and honestly I think they were right.

It would have cost at least 14 million over 3 years to keep Sammy in Boston, and he simply hasn't played at anywhere close to that level for the past 3 seasons. He is a guy who can shine if he has the right people around him, but is completely can be completely invisible for long periods.

QUOTE
Interest in Leetch, Gill Axelsson...

Didn't want to give up players just for draft picks.


I wouldn't have given Axe up unless someone offered a rediculous deal for him. He is far more important to this team than Sammy.

Trading Leetch was unfortunately a case where you had to balance respect throughout the league and return. They could only trade Leetch if he requested it, otherwise it would impact their abolity to sign players in the future. Sounds like no one offered much, and goodwill with future players might be worth more than a 4th rounder.

In terms of Gil, I wouldn't have given him away, because there is a chance you could get him to resign cheap in the offseason. Then agian, if someone offered a 2nd round pick I would have dealt him

And keeping those guys does keep their slim playoff hopes alive


QUOTE
They are interviewing MOC right now and he said that this deal makes them better "now and in the future."


I'm not sure he was wrong. Sammy was basically useless to this team. Even when the team was playing well in January, Sammy was a complete non factor Reasoner does have more offensive skill than Primeu, and he might just click to some degree with Murray. Reasoner might just be more productive than Sammy.
Smiling Joe Hesketh
Tonight's game was a microcosm of the entire season. Uninspiring, listless, and ultimately fruitless.

I particularly enjoyed seeing Gill deflect a puck by his own goalie into the net. Words cannot describe how awful he is.
Smiling Joe Hesketh
QUOTE
The Bruins have money, they have revenue and they stuff it under their f*cking pillows.


It helps not to have your head completely up your ass when posting.

The Bruins were right up against the cap limit for most of the year. They will be up against the cap next year, and every year going forward. The presense of the cap means that cries of "cheap" no longer have any meaning, and it's high time we all moved beyond that tired excuse to a somewhat deeper analysis of the team. Had the Bruins been around the $20 million level on a $39 million cap, you might have a point. They weren't; you don't.

There are plenty of things to fault with this club, but cheapness ain't one of them.
MiracleOfO2704
QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Mar 9 2006, 09:43 PM)
It helps not to have your head completely up your ass when posting.

The Bruins were right up against the cap limit for most of the year. They will be up against the cap next year, and every year going forward. The presense of the cap means that cries of "cheap" no longer have any meaning, and it's high time we all moved beyond that tired excuse to a somewhat deeper analysis of the team. Had the Bruins been around the $20 million level on a $39 million cap, you might have a point. They weren't; you don't.

There are plenty of things to fault with this club, but cheapness ain't one of them.
*


To expound, the problem has not been their unwillingness to spend money. The new (or old, depending on your point of view) problem is their piss-poor player assessment. Zhamnov and Leetch were tremendously short-sighted and almost certainly partially motivated by losing out on players like Modano and Forsberg. At the very least, it shows that they did not really anticipate their inability to adapt to the new playing style in the NHL.

I could do without these guys for a while. I doubt I'll give myself the chance.
Alacoldart
QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Mar 9 2006, 09:40 PM)
Tonight's game was a microcosm of the entire season. Uninspiring, listless, and ultimately fruitless.

I particularly enjoyed seeing Gill deflect a puck by his own goalie into the net. Words cannot describe how awful he is.
*


Which means he'll be back next year. Their season is over, they just have to play out the games. There's a sliver of hope that they'll rebound and win enough to qualify, but it's about as small a chance as O.J. saying he was guilty all along. That they only managed to move Samsonov (for a surprising amount of talent in return, given that his knee is iffy and his deal is almost up) when they needed to move a couple guys and really stock the pantry shows you how little interest ownership actually has in making the team better.

At least Isiah Thomas would have traded for some big names to at least increase interest in the team on a whole. I don't know who's a worse GM, him or MOC. MOC's been on the job longer, but has been as equally unimpressive. At least Zeke generates press.
BTownBeckett
QUOTE (MiracleOfO2704 @ Mar 9 2006, 09:59 PM)
To expound, the problem has not been their unwillingness to spend money. The new (or old, depending on your point of view) problem is their piss-poor player assessment. Zhamnov and Leetch were tremendously short-sighted and almost certainly partially motivated by losing out on players like Modano and Forsberg. At the very least, it shows that they did not really anticipate their inability to adapt to the new playing style in the NHL.

I could do without these guys for a while. I doubt I'll give myself the chance.
*

I agree, and maybe my point isn't as fleshed out as it could have been. Samsonov and Thornton were the two best draft picks the Bruins have had in the past 10 years. Now that the FO has been successful in ridding themselves of their two best players, they look to be at about 35.5M or so against a 39M cap. According to multiple sources including This Link the cap will increase to between 40-45M. That gives the Bruins (I don't know the exact amount, but I assume that their salaries will increase) a rough estimate of about 38M in salary which is anywhere from 2-7M under the cap for next year. That is assuming that everyone on the current roster is re-signed or is still with the team/comparable players. Are we to expect that MOC et al are going to go out and find good young players who were not locked up to multi-year deals last season? Are we to forget that two years' worth of FAs got scooped up this past offseason with aging vets signing to short contracts and young studs signing 3+ years? Even if they do find these players, are we to expect them to be able to reel good young FAs in after they couldn't get anything better than Brian Leetch last year? Do you really believe that the Bruins' brass expects to fill the voids they've created, both financially and skillwise, in the coming offseason? I, for one, sure as hell don't.

Samsonov and Thornton are the epitomy of what the Bruins should be looking for. They are both still young and both were looking to get multi-year deals to stay with the B's. Thornton got one and was dealt, Sammy didn't and was still dealt. Who are we kidding here? I don't see an Iginla or someone like that coming in here in the next 3-5 years and I don't understand why anyone else would expect it to happen.

Did they spend what they should have this year? Yes. Will they continue to do so? I don't believe so. The reason why is that they have avoided doing exactly what they should have been doing all along for seemingly no reason. The only explanation is that they are trying their hardest to put every possible spin their way to explain how the team got both cheaper and less skilled for as long as they can.

If there are other cap numbers, etc. I should be looking at, I'd love to see them because I am having a very hard time justifying watching a single game the rest of the season. I would also greatly appreciate a few of the highly touted stars that we should be saving all of this money for in the coming offseason.

Trust me, my head isn't up my ass. Maybe I was speaking with more emotion than argumentative substance, but don't presume that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
BigMike
QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Mar 10 2006, 10:28 AM)
I agree, and maybe my point isn't as fleshed out as it could have been.  Samsonov and Thornton were the two best draft picks the Bruins have had in the past 10 years.  Now that the FO has been successful in ridding themselves of their two best players
*


Samsonov was not one of the 2 best Bruins players, and hasn't been for at least 3 years. He is also not one of the 2 best Bruins draft picks in the last decade. Sammy can't carry Patrice Bergeron's jock as a hockey player


QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Mar 10 2006, 10:28 AM)
That gives the Bruins (I don't know the exact amount, but I assume that their salaries will increase) a rough estimate of about 38M in salary which is anywhere from 2-7M under the cap for next year.  That is assuming that everyone on the current roster is re-signed or is still with the team/comparable players.  Are we to expect that MOC et al are going to go out and find good young players who were not locked up to multi-year deals last season?  Are we to forget that two years' worth of FAs got scooped up this past offseason with aging vets signing to short contracts and young studs signing 3+ years?  Even if they do find these players, are we to expect them to be able to reel good young FAs in after they couldn't get anything better than Brian Leetch last year?  Do you really believe that the Bruins' brass expects to fill the voids they've created, both financially and skillwise, in the coming offseason?  I, for one, sure as hell don't.
*


Yes they were up against the 39 million cap at the start of the year.  They are no where close to that number next year.  It seems clear Zhamnov will either retire, or the Bruins will negotiate a buyout, which will drop him to at most 1.25 mil a year in terms of cap value.

Barring a surprising trade their core will likely be
Bergeron
Sturm
Boyes
Murray
Primeau
4 more top 9 plers, hopefully PJ stays, and at least 1 will be a rookie (Stazny, Walter, or one of the K boys)

A 4th line, some combination of rookies and cheap vets

Alberts
Jurcina
Stuart
Boynton
2 more D (maybe Tanabe or Gil stays, maybe a rookie comes in)

Thomas
Toivonen
(Thomas will resign relatively cheap, Razor will be dealt)

That is 11 players who form the beginning of a decent core for around 20 million, maybe a little less.

They probably fill the 4th line for around 2 mil between rookies, and low cost vets.

So now you are up to 22 million for 14 guys. Assume another 2 million for the bench players.  That brings you to 24 million for 16 guys, which means you in theory should have 15+ million to fill the remaining 6 slots on the roster.  With that money they should be able to keep PJ, add a solid second line center, add another solid defenseman, and maybe even another second line winger

They will spend money, If they spend their money wisely they have a chance to be a dramatically better team next year


QUOTE (BTownBeckett @ Mar 10 2006, 10:28 AM)
Samsonov and Thornton are the epitomy of what the Bruins should be looking for.  They are both still young and both were looking to get multi-year deals to stay with the B's.  Thornton got one and was dealt, Sammy didn't and was still dealt.  Who are we kidding here?  I don't see an Iginla or someone like that coming in here in the next 3-5 years and I don't understand why anyone else would expect it to happen.

*


Thornton had all the talent in the world. He was an extremely frustrating player. He often just seemed like he didn't care. Maybe it was an illusion, but I am just not sure he is a guy I would want to pay 20% of my cap dollars to

In terms of Sammy he flashed potential for years, but never took a step up to being a great player. His last 3 years have been extremely frustrating with the injuries, and lack of production. I would have kpt him if you could keep him for 2 mil a year, but that wasn't going to happen, and no way would I give him 3.5 mil
Smiling Joe Hesketh
QUOTE
Will they continue to do so? I don't believe so. The reason why is that they have avoided doing exactly what they should have been doing all along for seemingly no reason. The only explanation is that they are trying their hardest to put every possible spin their way to explain how the team got both cheaper and less skilled for as long as they can.


You're spinning your wheels here.

The salaries of the players on the team will be going up next year as it is. As pointed out a few pages ago, the three players received in exchange for Thornton will all be recieving raises in the next year and they need to ensure they can keep them here. There are other UFAs and RFAs the Bruins will likely try to keep, such as PJ and Boynton.

They signed Joe to a 3 year deal, and then traded him, which you see as a sign of cheapness. That makes no sense; whether you agree with the deal or not the trade was made for hockey purposes; had they been planning on dumping Joe for salary reasons they never would have given him 3 years. They did not extend Sammy and traded him, which you see as a sign of cheapness. Which is it?

It's clear that they're selling for this season because they know they're not going to make the playoffs. The trade of an upcoming UFA is an obvious clue to that.

The real problems with the Bruins lie in their evaluation of hockey talent. They constructed an old, redundant, unskilled team for this season and it has cost them badly. The team they constructed was near the cap limit (as are most teams, as you need to have a little space in reserve in case of injuries). They gave a 35 year old Zhamnov a generous, 4 year deal. That's not cheapness, it's stupidity. They brought in 4 brands of the same flavor of checking forward in Green, Scatchard, McEachern, and Fitzgerald, which was unecessary and stupid. They gave McEachern 2 years to boot, which was sheer folly.

I am fully confident that the Bruins will be near the limit of the salary cap for the 2006/2007 season. If they're not then at that time you can sling your cries of "cheap." I am far less confident that they will have a good team for that money, which is a hockey talent evaluation issue.

QUOTE
If there are other cap numbers, etc. I should be looking at, I'd love to see them because I am having a very hard time justifying watching a single game the rest of the season. I would also greatly appreciate a few of the highly touted stars that we should be saving all of this money for in the coming offseason.


I am having a hard time as well for the rest of this season, because the team is very bad and plays shitty defense and can't score. I am as frustrated with the Bruins as you are and have lost all confidence in the management team. My comments in the other post were certainly too harsh on you. But I can't follow your argument that the Bruins will be cheap going forward merely because they traded an upcomiong UFA. The real argument, again, is who they received in exchange for their UFA, which I believe to have been a poor return in talent.

You're also assuming that the solution to the team's problems is a free agent acquisition. I'm more skeptical of that. The solution to the team's problems is more complex and involves getting better defense and goaltending, and keeping their core of young players together.

A real acid test for the management team will be to see if they make an offer to Gill again. If they do then it will be clear that they have no idea what the hell they're doing.
Smiling Joe Hesketh
QUOTE (Alacoldart @ Mar 9 2006, 10:00 PM)
A
That they only managed to move Samsonov (for a surprising amount of talent in return, given that his knee is iffy and his deal is almost up) when they needed to move a couple guys and really stock the pantry shows you how little interest ownership actually has in making the team better.

t least Isiah Thomas would have traded for some big names to at least increase interest in the team on a whole.  I don't know who's a worse GM, him or MOC.  MOC's been on the job longer, but has been as equally unimpressive.  At least Zeke generates press.
*

At least MOC has drafted well. I have no quibbles with his drafting record. His evaluation of talent at the NHL level is pretty poor, however.

I think MOC said they tried to move a couple of other guys but were getting no good offers in return. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they re-sign Leetch to another 1 year deal for next season.
Eddie Jurak
SJH is right, the Bruins problems have very little to do with money.

To be honest, it would not bother me a bit if the Bruins went into next year well below the cap, so long as they gave their young talent an opportunity to play, and themselves an opportunity to evaulate what they have and spend their free agent dollars more wisely.

The only UFAs I really want to see signed are PJ Axelsson and Tim Thomas. Maybe Reasoner, too, assuming he's cheap and impresses with his play over the next 19 games.

Despite the bad year, they look to have a pretty solid core of young/young veteran talent.

They look solid in goal with Toivonen and maybe Thomas.

On defense, Brad Stuart, Nick Boynton, Milan Jurcina, and Andrew Alberts are a good young core. (I have mixed feelings about David Tanabe). Beyond that, they have Some good prospects - Mark Stuart and Jonathan Sigalet in Providence, and Matt Lashoff in juniors (he will likely sign and play for Providence next eyar). They also have a decision to make on 2000 #1 pick Lars Jonsson - they can either sign him for 1st round pick type money or let him go and receive the #37 pick in the draft as compensation. Prior to this year, Jonsson is a guy whose production did not match his hype and contract demands, but he has had a good year in Sweden so that may change.

At forward they are weaker overall, but they do have Bergeron and Boyes - two of the elague's very good young forwards, they have veterans like Murray and Sturm. I'd like to see them re-sign Axelsson, find a way to deep six Alexei Zhamnov, and give some of their group of young prospects a chance - guys like Ben Walter, Martin Karsums, Petr Kalus. They will need a veteran or two here, but I'd rather not see them bring in another Zhamnov.
BigMike
QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Mar 10 2006, 01:40 PM)
A real acid test for the management team will be to see if they make an offer to Gill again. If they do then it will be clear that they have no idea what the hell they're doing.
*


Gill is a tough case for me. He does some things very well, and obviously some things quite poorly.

Honestly when I look at some of the salaries given out, and talent exchanged for lousy defenders. I am convinced someone is going to give Gill around 3 mil a year in a long term contract next year
Eddie Jurak
QUOTE (BigMike @ Mar 10 2006, 09:00 AM)
Gill is a tough case for me.  He does some things very well, and obviously some things quite poorly.

Honestly when I look at some of the salaries given out, and talent exchanged for lousy defenders. I am convinced someone is going to give Gill around 3 mil a year in a long term contract next year
Hopefully not the Bruins.
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