Yaz: Ortiz is 2nd best Sox hitter ever

[schmooman]

 
 
"I think so, yeah. I would put [Ortiz] ahead of me," Yastrzemski told the Globe. "He had more power than I had."

 
While Yaz's 1967 year was a better year than any year Ortiz has had in his career, Ortiz had 4 excellent years (06, 07, 12, 13) that stack up well and has generally been an elite hitter for a longer period of time. I don't know that it's open and shut either way.
 
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/11271178/carl-yastrzemski-says-david-ortiz-boston-red-sox-second-best-hitter-ted-williams
 
 

 

[snowmanny]

Yastrzemski led the league in OPS\OPS+ four times, so he had a number of great years.

 

[BosRedSox5]

I would agree that Ortiz is one of the Red Sox all-time great hitters I think it would be foolish to not prefer Yaz in his prime to Papi. I'm 30, Yaz retired before I was born, I didn't get to watch him play... but the books I've read and the stats I've seen show a pretty clear picture that Yaz was a tremendous all around player. Three years with a WAR over 9. Legitimate gold glove quality defense in LF. He was a beast. 

 

[Devizier]

I would agree that Ortiz is one of the Red Sox all-time great hitters I think it would be foolish to not prefer Yaz in his prime to Papi. I'm 30, Yaz retired before I was born, I didn't get to watch him play... but the books I've read and the stats I've seen show a pretty clear picture that Yaz was a tremendous all around player. Three years with a WAR over 9. Legitimate gold glove quality defense in LF. He was a beast. 

 
Merits mentioning that Yaz was referring to hitting alone.
 
Post-deadball era, you can definitely make the case for Ortiz. Manny might have been better, but eff that guy.

 

[Kliq]

Classy move by Yaz, and there is some truth to it, especially when you consider postseason performance (Ortiz has hit .454 in WS games).
 
The only guys that could rival Ortiz (besides Yaz and Ted) are Manny, Foxx, Boggs and Speaker. Manny and Boggs are both impressive, but many fans might have trouble picking them for personal reasons. Foxx's numbers compare similar to Ortiz, but he always seemed like an A. Speaker came up with Boston, and while he wasn't the slugger that Foxx or Ortiz were, he would have to be considered the best if we consider defense and baserunning, since Speaker is probably the best CF ever.

 

[nvalvo]

The fact that a guy we acquired following a non-tender after his age 26 season can even be in this kind of conversation is just bizarre. 
 
Players that caliber have usually solidified their reputation by that age. Think of how Manny Ramirez, say, was regarded by age 26: he'd been a ROY runner up and a two-time All Star. The flip side is someone like Bagwell, but the Sox traded him as a 22 year old. 
 
It's not rare that teams make mistakes and end up missing on guys who end up being good. It's pretty damned rare that they end up missing on guys who end up being great, in the top handful of players in the history of a franchise sense of great. It's even rarer that they do so when those players have already played years in the majors. 

 

[Granite Sox]

I think this is a fun discussion.  Yaz was my idol growing up, and he was clearly a better overall player in comparison to Papi.  
 
As a hitter, Yaz was a grinder and was forever tinkering with his stance, hands, bat, etc.  He always seemed to be fighting himself a little bit starting in the early 70's through to the end, but part of his greatness was his persistence, dedication, focus, adaptability, and will-to-winnieness.
 
Stylistically, the two couldn't be more different as hitters.
 
Yaz acknowledged Ortiz' 'clutch' characteristic; notable, given Yaz' mythical '67 performance.
 
I think Yaz understands how hitting has become more challenging as time has passed, and appreciates Ortiz' attention to the craft and unique challenges as a DH.

 

[JimBoSox9]

I don't really have any idea if David Ortiz is a better hitter than Yaz.  I'm comfortably certain, however, he isn't as good a hitter as Manuel Aristides Ramirez.  After Papi's 04-07 peak, the fact that he managed this 2010-2013 swan song to put himself in the conversation is impressive enough on its own without needing to deny just how lethal MBM was. 

 

[SirPsychoSquints]

I'm not sure the best way to do this, but WPA is purely hitting, not position-adjusted, and around average, rather than replacement level.  WPA/LI leaders in Sox history - I also added WPA/LI per 700 PA
 
http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/a438g
 
[tablegrid= Career Sox WPA/LI Leaders ]Rk Player WPA/LI From To Age G PA  per 700 PA   1 Ted Williams 80.96 1939 1960 20-41 2292 9788  5.79   2 Carl Yastrzemski 62.618 1961 1983 21-43 3308 13992  3.13   3 David Ortiz 41.685 2003 2014 27-38 1616 6993  4.17   4 Dwight Evans 38.476 1972 1990 20-38 2505 10240  2.63   5 Wade Boggs 35.573 1982 1992 24-34 1625 7323  3.40   6 Jim Rice 33.461 1974 1989 21-36 2089 9058  2.59   7 Manny Ramirez 31.095 2001 2008 29-36 1083 4682  4.65   8 Mo Vaughn 21.029 1991 1998 23-30 1046 4452  3.31   9 Fred Lynn 18.795 1974 1980 22-28 828 3513  3.75   10 Reggie Smith 18.324 1966 1973 21-28 1014 4265  3.01   11 Nomar Garciaparra 17.625 1996 2004 22-30 966 4345  2.84   12 Carlton Fisk 15.399 1969 1980 21-32 1078 4353  2.48   13 Jackie Jensen 15.231 1954 1961 27-34 1039 4517  2.36   14 Kevin Youkilis 14.474 2004 2012 25-33 953 3974  2.55   15 Mike Greenwell 13.393 1985 1996 21-32 1269 5166  1.81 [/tablegrid] 
 
If Ortiz has an argument over Yaz, then Manny has a better argument over Ortiz, in my opinion.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

What did Manny ever do to Yaz for Yaz to hate him so?
 
 
 
The real discussion isn't for 2nd. The discussion is for 4th.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I hope this "Yaz ignored the greatness of Manny" crap is in jest, because otherwise it's Manny fanboys getting butt-hurt over nothing.
 
Shaughnessy asked Yaz specifically about Ortiz.  He didn't ask him to expound on his own rankings of all-time Sox nor did Yaz offer anything of that sort in what he said.
 
This isn't about who's #2 or #4 or whatever.  It was specifically Yaz vs Ortiz, according to Yaz.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Well, then, the hell with the thread starter.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Post-deadball era, you can definitely make the case for Ortiz. Manny might have been better, but eff that guy.
 

 
Eff Manny? Wait. What? Why?

 

[timlinin8th]

If Ortiz has an argument over Yaz, then Manny has a better argument over Ortiz, in my opinion.

Thank you for that chart. Shows how fortunate we were to see 2 of the top 5 hitters in team history (regardless how you rank that top 5) hitting 3-4 for a few seasons.

 

[schmooman]

This isn't about who's #2 or #4 or whatever.  It was specifically Yaz vs Ortiz, according to Yaz.

 

 
"I would say as a hitter, I would say he's next to Ted [Williams]," Yastrzemski told the Globe.

 

[jscola85]

 
Eff Manny? Wait. What? Why?

 
Do you not remember how he left town for LA?  Not saying I personally hold ill will towards him, but I can understand why others might.

 

[Al Zarilla]

 
Do you not remember how he left town for LA?  Not saying I personally hold ill will towards him, but I can understand why others might.

Eh, time heals all wounds. He's all getting the entire crowd at Fenway to do the touchdown arms up thing or sending liners into the right center gap with that beautiful swing to me now.