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Worst Ref Stories

Discussion in 'Coaches Corner' started by riboflav, May 17, 2015.

  1. riboflav

    riboflav Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,980
    So, I'm not one to pick on refs (in fact, I was one for several years). I've always loved Belichick's approach that you control what you can and just focus on that. Sometimes, you have to beat the opposing team and the refs. I've coached basketball a long time and haven't had a T since the 90s...
     
    Tonight, I'm coaching my AAU 12U boys team. We are finally playing the best basketball we've played. Our kids are really starting to get it. They're tough, they're physical, and they're playing with great energy. With four minutes left in the first half. the other team has their center planted in the lane. I haven't said one word to the refs all game. I tell one ref, "three seconds, he's just sitting there!" I did yell this so he could hear me but that is literally all I said. He Ts me up. I said, "For that?!?!?" He says, "Do you want to leave?" I just look at him incredulously, but take my seat and don't say another word. 
     
    Two minutes later, our PG is shoved to the floor so hard he bangs his head directly on the floor. The refs do not stop play for at least 7 or 8 seconds. When they finally do, I go out to the floor and see that our kid is really hurting, and I think he may have a concussion. The ref comes over and I say to him, "You need to be in position to make these kinds of calls. Kids can get hurt."  (He was lazy and didn't come up the floor when the ball entered our front court - he was all the way down on the opposite baseline). The ref throws me out of the game and never provides an explanation as to why.  My assistant asked him after the game why I was thrown out, and the ref said he would not tell him.  Parents complained to me via email afterward that the ref high-fived the kid who made the technical foul shots after I was thrown out. I was also told by our team manager that when she offered the ref ice for our kid, the ref responded, "No thanks, I don't need no ice." When she informed him that the ice was for our player, he said, "Not my job." Granted ice won't necessarily help a concussion but... you know...
     
    Our player ended up going to the hospital where he was diagnosed with a concussion.
     
     
  2. LoweTek

    LoweTek Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    1,175
    I don't know about AAU Basketball but our baseball league has an Umpire in Chief (UIC) and there is a process for registering umpire complaints. While disputed calls are off limits, the subjects of impartiality and player safety are taken pretty seriously. Your issue is more than a missed call. I would send it up your league chain of command. Leave out the disputed call details and stick to facts which reflect his poor positioning when the player was knocked down resulting in a concussion and in particular his high-fiving the other player.
     
    If your league has no such process, I would suggest finding another league.
     
     
  3. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    Was he a board certified guy?  
     
    AAU refs are incredibly frustrating around here (CT), most are not board certified and they might be doing 4-5 games in a row, they just don't care about anything as much as getting the games in on time AND they can pretty much give you a T for anything they want with no accountability.  Sucks for your kids and especially that one kid that you had to have that happen. 
     
    From my experience 6th grade AAU games are allowed to be more physical than High School varsity games, which is ridiculous.
     
    The guys running the tournament probably wouldn't care if you complained about the ref, if you even got his name. About the only thing you can do is avoid that tournament in the future and look for tournaments that say that use board.  There are some tournaments that get really good officials and "only" have then do 2-3 games in a row.
     
  4. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    649
    My worst ref experience was at a 5th grade boys travel game last season against a team where the first time around in league play (we play each team twice) there was one intentional foul called on the other team for elbow contact above the shoulders and could have been 3-4 other similar calls. I did three concussion checks that game. The other coach clearly didn't know NFHS rules about elbow contact above the shoulders and didn't coach to those rules. I went to several boys high school state playoff games this season and none of them were allowed to become as physical as that 5th grade game.
     
    Early in the second game I asked one ref if he could watch the hand checking, arm bars, two hands on the ball handler, he said if he called those fouls, every player would foul out (so much for helping the young players improve). So not a good start.
     
    An opposing player gets a defensive rebound, swings elbows high. (I should also mention I sometimes go 4-5 games in a row without saying a single word to the officials and I sit on the bench 90% or more of the game) I say something to the other official, asking to watch the elbows - swinging them excessively, even without contact can be called a violation, something you do see called at this level. First words of the game to this ref and he warns me not to say another word.
     
    A couple possessions later, their player gets a defensive rebound, elbows out, swings them three times, concerned for my players safety, I yell "you've gotta watch those elbows". The ref who I'd said something to about elbows looks at me, trails the play, the other team makes two passes and scores, after the bucket, he blows his whistle and calls me for a technical foul, at least 10 seconds after I'd said anything. I say something like "I'm just trying to keep my players from getting hit with an elbow in the face", boom, second technical. I am literally in disbelief, he's at the scorer's table, back to me, so I just touch him on the shoulder because I want to ask what is going on, he says "you can't touch me" third technical. All three technicals within maybe 30 seconds, maybe less.
     
    I can't believe this guy is serious, but at the same time, I want to be a good role model for the kids, or at least as good as possible at this point. So I tell my assistant I have to leave and start collecting my stuff.  Regrettably, I turned around and told this guy he was making up rules calling three technicals and he'd never ref a travel basketball game in our town again (as President of our club, I will make sure he doesn't, but I shouldn't have said it in public like that). After I left the gym, our opponents were awarded six free throws.
     
    To make it worse, if a coach is ejected, our league requires that the league's board be emailed as the coach is suspended for the next game.  The board is one rep from each of the twelve towns in the league. I am our town's rep and we had a meeting to go over post season stuff the next day.  I received a few emails back in disbelief and very supportive, however I got my balls busted mercilessly at the meeting the next day. It led to a big discussion on officiating with a new league policy of having officials sign both scorebooks and meeting a few times a season to talk about officials with the idea that anyone with several complaints can get blacklisted.  This guy's name is going out to all those towns as the first guy on that list.
     
    I'm still mystified by this guy's behavior, I'm thinking we played hoops against each other sometime and he had a big problem with me but I really don't know.
     
  5. riboflav

    riboflav Member SoSH Member

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    I emailed the tourney director after the game to relay the story and try to get the names of the officials and their supervisor's contact info. The director was very responsive and sympathetic. I believe he was already told what had happened by his contact who was at the game. Like you, Heinie, I was also supposed to be suspended for the next game, but the tournament director said not to worry about it and just continue to coach. 
     
    I emailed the ref's supervisor yesterday but have not heard back. It's something I don't want to let go yet because there's almost no way I'll be able to avoid this ref in the future. The same org that provided the ref also provides them for high school games and other AAU tourneys in our county. I may get lucky of course and not see him for awhile, but if I keep coaching AAU and high school in this county, I'm going to run into him again.
     
  6. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    649
    Good luck, hopefully you will avoid having him at least for a while.  It is similar here, if you coach travel basketball, AAU etc around here you see the same officials frequently, which is one of the reasons I usually don't say anything to any of them.
     
  7. riboflav

    riboflav Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,980
    During my AAU summer league game last week:
     
    Ref (blows whistle to stop play and addresses me from 60 feet away): You gonna do something?
     
    Me (confused and having no idea what he's talking about): What?
     
    Ref: You need to sit your player.
     
    Me: Oh is he hurt? Which player?
     
    Ref: 13. He's pushing kids.
     
    Me: He is? What'd he do?
     
    Ref (still 60 feet away): Look Coach. You gonna sit your player and give him a talking to?
     
    Me: Uh. No.
     
    Ref: Sit your player.
     
    Me: Why don't you ref and I'll coach. If my player pushes someone, you should give him a T or a flagrant foul. But, it's up to you.
     
    Ref: Your kids are out of control (meanwhile, I'm thinking, I wish. I have the softest team in the league).
     
    Me: Ok.
     
    At this point, the other ref steps in and tells him to shut it down and move on with the game. I take my player out several minutes later and ask him what happened (he was on the other end of the floor being trapped when all this went down so I didn't have a good view). He said he hit a kid in the neck with his elbow while trying to pivot out of the trap. Ok, I said. No more pivoting the rest of the game.
     
  8. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    649
    The ref blew his whistle, but didn't make a call?  Elbow contact above the neck is an intentional foul (at least). He didn't want to call that? He wanted you to take the kid out of the game instead? That's bizarre. I'm guessing/hoping this was not a board certified guy.
     
  9. RIFan

    RIFan Member SoSH Member

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    1,482
    Being a hockey dad, I have lots of these.  Some refs are just miserable bastards that have no sense that they are reffing a kids sport.  
     
    The one that stands out the most was last spring in a Bantam semifinal playoffs.  My son's team was playing the #1 team which hadn't lost all season.  Our starting goalie was out and they called up a kid from a lower level so we could play the game.  It was out of control early.  The other team, which was very good and generally not overly dirty, did not let up.  The refs "let them play" so the result was finishing their checks started going over the line. One of our kids got boarded with no call, shoved the kid off of him, and was roundhoused in the head within 3 feet of the ref.  No calls on any of it.  When our kid skated off he was unsteady and brushed up against one of the other team.  The ref threatened to give him a misconduct. Turns out he got concussed on the play and was out of school for some time.   With about 5 minutes left, my son wheeled around the net and started up the boards.  He made the pass and got drilled into the boards by some kid that took about 5 strides after the puck was gone.  The closest ref let it go, before the second ref finally blew the whistle and only called a minor (USA Hockey rules call for it to be a major).  EMT's were on site and were called to the ice.  After a couple of minutes the EMT called for a parent to come out.  The ref started to skate over to block me from the ice.  All I said was "this is on you" and kept walking.  I was told someone stopped him from going after me.  In all it was just a terrible display by the ref who seemed more interested in letting the clock run out than getting control of the game. (Fortunately, my son was OK.)
     
    Funny one was a few weeks ago in my men's league game.  One of our regular refs was skating with the other team.  He got called on a borderline minor and bitched about it.  Later he got into a little scrum with one of our guys and got sent to the box.  The whole way he kept telling the ref he sucked and bitching about how bad he was and not in a buddy just having fun kind of way.  The ref ended up tossing him.  I wonder how that looked on the game report. 
     
  10. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    649
     
    I'd add that the vast majority are pretty good, and it's the few rotten ones that stick in your mind.  The thing I'll never understand is how these guys let uneven games or blowouts get out of control. Like it's not worth their effort once the score is beyond a certain margin.
     
    I've refereed basketball games and when I've had games that weren't close, every close call went to the trailing team, not to the extent to corrupt the game, but a close out of bounds play, a hand check, a small push etc.  Especially if the team that is up keeps trapping or fast breaking or anything that can be construed as unsportsmanlike. I don't expect all refs to go that far, but when a team is blowing out another team and the refs also let the physically superior team beat up the weaker team, it just doesn't make sense, and yet it happens all the time.
     
  11. riboflav

    riboflav Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,980
     
    Honestly, I really don't know what happened which was my point when I was addressing him. If he saw something, call it. If he's deciding it's not worthy of a call, then don't and if you want, come over and chat with me when the opportunity arises. But, don't yell at from 60 feet away. It just riles everyone up.
     
  12. TallManinOregon

    TallManinOregon Member SoSH Member

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    599
    I'll be checking in on this thread... as a basketball and baseball official, it's interesting to read perspectives from you guys.
     
    A few things on the matter of officiating:
     
    1. It's not as easy as it may seem to appear
     
    2. I care about doing a good job and officiating a good game (conversely, I genuinely don't care about the outcome, nor what Tommy's mother's opinion is, and for the most part, I can pretty easily forget the noise immediately)
     
    3. The younger the kids, the worse it is to call a game... and I have stopped doing anything below middle schools entirely. Screw that. The $15 is NOT EVEN CLOSE to worth it.
     
    4. (related to number 1) ... and finally, anyone that feels the officiating in their leagues/communities is terrible and that they could do better, SHOULD! The 2 associations I am in always need more people. Good refs get good games and take the games that bad refs would otherwise get, even as rookies... force out the cruddy refs by taking their spots!
     
  13. Cumberland Blues

    Cumberland Blues Dope Dope

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    4,660
    I'll be umping behind the plate for a fall ball game tomorrow...my first time behind the plate, hopefully I do not do anything worthy of this thread.
     
  14. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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  15. Doug Beerabelli

    Doug Beerabelli Killer Threads Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    My 10 year old son signed on the ref soccer games this fall.   He loved the idea.   As a u11 rookie, he's only allowed to do sidelines (offsides, out of bounds, maybe some other calls), but this will be for 10u in house games.  He may get a chance to be the sole ref at some U8 local games later in year.  We'll see how this goes.   I will be there to watch/monitor/protect as needed.   I expect the experience will definitely affect my behavior toward refs, which I don't think is that bad at all, but there's always room for improvement.
     
    BTW, $15 per game for him.
     
  16. BrazilianSoxFan

    BrazilianSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    10 year old responsible for offside calls? Prepare for the hate.
     
  17. Doug Beerabelli

    Doug Beerabelli Killer Threads Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Here is quote from ref guidelines given to my son  AR is assistant referee:    [SIZE=12pt]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]AR run from midfield to end line, staying even with 2nd to last Defender OR the ball (whichever is closer to the goal).   It[/SIZE]
     
    The guide doesn't clearly state who calls what, but that's the clearest proof the ARs on responsible for offside.  Offsides does exist, and the guide decribes what it is.    
     
    I was a parent of a player subject to this system last fall.   I recall more missed non calls than wrong calls.    It'll be interesting to see how bad it gets.  Might be fun to strike up an anonymous conversation with a heckler, especially for shaming purposes.
     
  18. robssecondjob

    robssecondjob Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Wow, ten is young.  Our ARs can be no younger than 14.  Very few of them ever seem to graduate to being a center ref even at the 6 v 6 U8, U9 level.  
     
    I often get the job of protecting the younger ref's from parent's.  Most tend to get what is happening when they see me as an AR with a 15 year old centering rather than the other way.
     
    And being an official is much harder than I ever thought.  I tend to overly respectful of officials now.
     
  19. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    AR raises the flag, but ultimately the responsibility is with the Referee to decide to blow the whistle or not.  
     
    The flag can get raised the the Ref can ignore it. Ideally the AR is just about always in perfect position to make the offside call.
     
    We have kids ref travel soccer games and parents are brutal to them. I've actually spoken up to tell parent to take it easy on them. Something about soccer makes middle class suburban parents insane.
     
  20. TallManinOregon

    TallManinOregon Member SoSH Member

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    599
    I always check in with the coaches in pregame to make sure that the plastic trophies the parents buy are the same size... It's a nice tongue in cheek way to ensure that at least the coaches know nothing is really riding on a game. That's not to say that it doesn't matter, because players, coaches and parents put a ton of time and effort in... we get that. But it's still youth sports and it's not life and death. Little Tommy, in all likelihood is not getting a 4 year ride, so everyone needs to chill...
     
    I will say, I have worked with guys that are terrible. This thread is evidence that it's not local to any one area.
     
    Different games at different levels in different sports pay different amounts. The local YMCA games (and local youth sports "everyone plays" organization) here pay $15 and it's terrible - particularly with the younger kids. AAU and high school and middle school games pay considerably better, but there are times when it's not worth it. When the association is solid, yes, the assignor gets a cut because trust me, that job is a pain the the...
     
    The best pay I ever got was working a men's senior baseball game alone (my college aged partner never showed for the Sunday double-header)... I kicked 2 calls, for sure (a probable trap that I called out and the other a steal of second that I didn't really see a tag but grabbed an out as well), but the second game ended up going 11 innings and the guy pitching for one of the teams threw a complete game shutout and had the GWRBI, t'boot. 18 innings on a 90-degree Sunday ... $200.
     
    Oh yeah, and soccer sucks. 
     
  21. Doug Beerabelli

    Doug Beerabelli Killer Threads Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He survived. Center ref does have override/ignore power. Wasn't always paying attention, wasn't always in perfect position for offsides, but did well with a couple offsides calls. No major or obvious parent grumbling as far as I can tell. He did a 10u girls game.
     
  22. Schnerres

    Schnerres Member SoSH Member

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    1,511
    IMO, the worst thing to do is to constantly overrule the assistant, who has the better view on the offside and will be heckled from some douchebaggy-parents and thinks more than twice if he lifts the flag on the next close call...
     
    Yes, if it is a weird situation (like someone is offside, but passive and doesn´t touch the ball), let the game run, while the assistant shows offside, ofc, but if there is just one player on a close call and you may think oh,boy, that was close, i think he was onside, but your assistant stands there with the flag lifted, you have to make the call, as he sees it better and you have to support him.
     
    There aren´t like five situations per match where you as a ref stand right where the assistant and the last defender is standing. That situation may happen 1-2 times per game at most. And then you still have to have a blind assistant that makes two out of two wrong decisions.
     
  23. Omar's Wacky Neighbor

    Omar's Wacky Neighbor Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yesterday my 16 y/o pulled in $200 in four games (first game was AR at u10 or u11, which paid squat, $36). Today if the weather holds, $180 for three games. Yeah, he's paying for his own dasm Taco Bell on the ride home.
     
  24. riboflav

    riboflav Member SoSH Member

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    Wow. Where do you people live? I coach in the two wealthiest counties in the country and no one here, but for high school refs, make more than $25 per game. AAU, CYA, county travel, doesn't matter. 25/game.
     
  25. Omar's Wacky Neighbor

    Omar's Wacky Neighbor Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    6,670
    Can't recall if I ever mentioned this hoops call from years back: two players are fighting for a loose ball, they both get a good grip on it and tie it up, and the ref called a jump ball. Yup, both players were on the same team.

    And the #1 pre game excuse you hear from parents and coaches? "But the refs always let me do this"/"the refs never had a problem with it before". My son heard it yesterday at u14 when a player wore lax cleats.
     
  26. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    Hartford County, CT. We use board certified referees for basketball, most of them do HS games at various levels. I know the towns in two of our leagues pay about the same. One of the leagues we play in doesn't require board certified referees, so they probably pay $10-15 less per game. My guess would be that greater population density = more refs available = less pay for referees.
     
  27. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    We had an interesting ref in my son's U18 Travel soccer game. Two hour drive up to Richmond, pulled in the lot there was a guy in spot next to me that looked like he was sleeping one off. Well, that was the ref.
     
    In the game we had:
     
    • Three yellow cards to other team, 2 for mouthing back (one kid said "This is the worst ref I've ever seen"). He gave one kid a card for vicious slide tackle from behind, then, 5 minutes later, same kid does it, ref pulls out his card, runs up to him, realizes it's the same kid, puts the card away. At this point my son's team is holding onto an undeserved 1-0 lead with 4 minutes left against a really good team. And I don't mean undeserved in that it would be a crime against nature if they held on, just that they haven't carried play, but played very solid defense and absorbed the attacks and had some good counters. And they should now be up a man.
    • My son leaves game with 3 minutes left for fresh legs. Kid that comes in is, based on how game has been called, clearly fouled just over midfield, no call. Even other team paused thinking it was foul. Other team goes down, earns corner, scores off corner.
    • Ref adds stoppage time, my son's team counters, has 2 on 1, ball crossed and clearly hits defender's hand away from his body--no deflection, no sudden shot from 2 feet away. Just a clear hand ball. No call. Other team takes deflection, counters and scores. Heartbreaking.
     
  28. Cumberland Blues

    Cumberland Blues Dope Dope

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    For the higher level youth soccer leagues in our area (Northern VT) the refs get $35/game - there are no AR's tho - just one ref calling everything.  I've only seen U10/U12 games, I dunno if they have AR's for the older kids.  Sometimes we get HS kids, sometimes we get more experienced guys.  Yesterday we had a 16yr old kid who did a fine job for my son's premiere team game.  We've had some kids in the past who who don't seem to know there's a game going on.
     
    For rec league - it's usually just kids.  Our U-12 rec league game on Sat had two 8th grade girls reffing - (I don't know if they're paid or not).  They did a good job on off-side calls, but seemed reluctant to call anything else and the game got pretty physical, I'm glad nobody was hurt.  We've had rec league refs in the past who clearly do not know the rules, but they're just kids, what are you gonna do?
     
  29. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    My son refs and all leagues in this area, from city recreational leagues on up require them to be USSF certified.
     
    Most city rec league games are done with a 2 person crew starting at like 10 year old level, before that it's just one ref and they're just making sure no one is hurt and controlling the flow. For the club teams (advanced) it's one ref and 2 ARs, with refs starting at around $25 for the U12 level and it going up a bit each year. ARs get $18 I think for U12 level.
     
    Travel games are more lucrative--ARs making around $30 and refs earning $50+.
     
    My son loves reffing the little kids for the city games. He earns about $20 for 45 minutes of work, and the games start every hour.
     
  30. h8mfy

    h8mfy lurker

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    Here in Orange County, CA, where money is generally not an object, team parents are obliged to volunteer as referees in order to have our kids' teams qualify for the playoffs.  This applies to all levels, including the "Extra" (think all-star, travel).  You must be qualified to ref the older kids games (eg, U12+ requires Intermediate certification - a two-day class), even to AR.  A team needs 12 total referee points to continue the season, getting 2 for CR and 1 for AR.
     
    We do use youth refs but they are not paid, either, though I think they can count it toward mandatory HS volunteering hours.
     
  31. Doug Beerabelli

    Doug Beerabelli Killer Threads Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Parents reffing seems like a bad idea.   SSS - My son's first U11 game a couple weeks ago, refs had wrong time, one asst. from each team did it, and other team's coach was, shall we say, lax on the foul calls.  Only called them when it appears we had a breakaway opportunity.   Not egregious, but enough for me to think the guy was being a dink.  Our guy, who did the sidelines, even signalled foul on the other team a couple times that was ignored.   
     
    I guess you get what you pay for.   And my son's team did end with the win, so not a huge deal.
     
  32. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    That is awful. I've seen a ton of youth soccer games at the premier/travel level in CT and I've never seen a yellow card given.
     
    It's too bad there isn't some statewide system where you could give meaningful feedback on officials.  Too many people would be ridiculous about hammering even the good guys when calls don't go their way, so I guess it would be difficult to tell who is giving legitimate criticism.
     
    Our travel basketball league is implementing a system to review officials a couple times a season and blacklist guys who consistently don't put forth the expected effort.
     
    I know CT High School basketball coaches get to X out referees they don't like but I don't know how many then can X out.
     
  33. h8mfy

    h8mfy lurker

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    I should have clarified that except at the very lowest levels they strongly discourage parents reffing their own kids games, and most often it is only the ARs who are associated with the teams - which means that I not only have to find time to do a completely separate game, but also attend my daughter's (U14 Travel), where I often AR out of necessity, and usually volunteer to go on the far sideline.  All Your Saturdays Occupied, indeed.
     
    This year, they instituted real playoffs (before, they officially didn't even keep score) for the U8 teams and are thus emphasizing having experienced refs instead of the youths getting their feet wet, in order to clamp down on the parents who are now invested in a championship (another bad idea, IMHO).
     
    It can get a little scary between the usually clueless parents who have no soccer background, and the many first-generation families from places where they take their football VERY seriously.
     
  34. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    In addition to the 3 yellows and 2 lectures to kids, he also lectured my son's coach--halting play, crossing the field, and jabbering at him for 30 seconds. And honestly, all the coach did was the typical "He didn't get any ball, all he did was take out my player" type of thing. No ranting, just the thing a coach yells out in order to maybe get the ref to keep a closer eye on something. There's no need for rabbit ears at something that harmless.
     
    He just lost control, then completely changed up what he was doing in last 5 minutes. The best thing refs can do is just be consistent.
     
  35. Finn's Dad

    Finn's Dad Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I had a ref for a Saturday varsity soccer game that was awful.  He started out by saying, "I'm going to call this game like it is - a high school game.  I don't want to have to call it like it's U-12."  He continued, after coaches were dismissed, with saying, "I will only call malicious fouls."  This translated into our team being hacked because our kids were vastly superior to the other kids in soccer.  Players were getting knocked down left and right, stepped on, etc., but because he didn't deem it as "malicious," it wasn't called.  Meanwhile, a kid on our team slid on the ground to knock a ball into the goal, and the referee warned him that "sliding with your cleats up is a red card offense."  There was nobody within five yards of him when he scored the goal...  
     
    The ref had no control over the game, and it turned ugly as we pulled away.  After getting the score to 9-0, the other team started fouling much harder, but still no calls went against them.  By far the "best" call was when a player on our team did a Maradona around a player from the other team, the player hit our guy and then fell, and the foul went against our player.  This after a player had his legs kicked out from under him with no call.  The kids on our team insisted the ref was racist since we played a team of all white players and we have a team with Latinos and Liberians (not one white player).  It was difficult to deny it, but I did my best to try to soothe their concerns by saying, "Some refs have bad games, too, but it's definitely dangerous.  I'll report him, don't worry."  Hopefully, with the rating I gave him, it prevents him from doing more of our games in the future.
     
  36. Finn's Dad

    Finn's Dad Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    In Minnesota, we get to rate officials after high school contests on a 1 to 7 scale.  For soccer, we rate on five areas - Application, Judgement, Positioning, Communication Skills, and Attitude.  We're told that this process affects their selection for state tournament matches.  The final column asks us the outcome of the game (win, loss, or draw).  I think this is a fair system, but I wish there was space to add additional information.  It's one thing for me to rate a guy a "2," but it's another thing for me to let them know why.  The numbers don't tell the whole story, in my opinion.
     
  37. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    This is the part that gets me. I rarely ever talk to referees, unless the game is getting out of control. I understand guys are going to miss calls, maybe even favor the home team, that's part of sports, but when they let the physicality of the game escalates to the point where someone could get hurt, that's unacceptable.  It is beyond me why anyone who is getting paid to officiate a game would let that happen. 
     
    There was a 5th grade basketball game, a scrimmage, where the other team warmed up with the coaches using big football pads to hit the players. The referees had zero control and it quickly devolved into a wrestling match. The referees simply didn't enforce basic rules of basketball. In hindsight, I wish I'd pulled my team and walked away.
     
  38. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    That sounds like a pretty good system.  Do those officials do games besides HS games, like youth travel games. Can they get reviewed on those games too?
     
    We use IAABO certified refs and our scheduler uses the same system they use for HS to get guys assigned to games, but we (Youth Travel Basketball) have no access to that system, so even if they had a review process, we wouldn't know.
     
    There are some guys who put in a 100% effort in HS games, then are just watching the clock for youth games, hoping they will end as quickly as possible.  NOT the vast majority of guys, but there are some like this.
     
  39. crystalline

    crystalline Member SoSH Member

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    5,671
    Good reflection on you that your team held it together and stayed clean. Lots of kids (or adults) in that situation would have gotten frustrated and lost control.
     
  40. Omar's Wacky Neighbor

    Omar's Wacky Neighbor Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Things could get interesting with youth soccer, especially on the referee front.  If you've seen the last few emails from USSF, it sounds like they;re attempting to corner (more bluntly:  put a stranglehold) on all of youth soccer in the US.  A few assignors I've discussed it with, and who are privy to even more behind-the-scenes emails, have intimated two things:  USSF will be close to "unionizing" all its refs;  and there's the potential to blackball any refs who try to work ANY game/scrimmage/friendly at any age or skill level UNLESS they're assigned by a USSF assignor (doesnt even matter if they work without wearing their badge).  Two weeks ago, one of those assignors told us in a very freindly way taht our league and individual towns should consider retaining counsel ASAP.
     
  41. CPT Neuron

    CPT Neuron Got Pitching? SoSH Member

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    I had a ref last week in my HS Varsity soccer game come back with this reply:
     
    Me:  "that's a deflection, our throw, the flight of the ball clearly changed directions, simple physics"
    Her: "I'm a physics teacher, I think I know about those things"
     
  42. BroodsSexton

    BroodsSexton Member SoSH Member

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    So basically you were a douche to the ref and the ref brushed you off?
     
  43. CPT Neuron

    CPT Neuron Got Pitching? SoSH Member

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    Nope very politely asked how a ball played forward winds up out of bounds without something changing its path.  The job, reffing, is often thankless, but at least make an effort to get things right. 
     
  44. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    Because we watch games on TV and can see so much via replay, I think we often have impossibly high standards for officials. I stopped saying anything about out of bounds calls when I realized it was never beneficial to me or my team. In the best case, comments like that don't help or hurt you, the ref is a pro and doesn't let that stuff have any impact on calls. You could argue that a comment like that may win you a call later, but I think it's far more likely to cost you a call later in the game.
     
    It's also modelling less than ideal behavior for your players, but I get that many HS coaches don't find that sort of thing very important.
     
    Funny that the ref was a physics teacher.
     
  45. BroodsSexton

    BroodsSexton Member SoSH Member

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    Huh. I guess I misread your initial post. To me it read like a guy second guessing the referee in a high school game, based on how he saw the play vs. how the ref saw it. Which is kind of the definition of Worst Coach, rather than Worst Ref. Wait, you're telling us a ref might (might) have missed a directional call on a throw-in? FOR SHAME.

    Also "make an effort to get it right" kind of confirms my original point. Do you have reason to think the ref wasn't trying to get it right?
     
  46. CPT Neuron

    CPT Neuron Got Pitching? SoSH Member

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    That was the most ironic part of all....typically, I'll bite my tongue and shrug it off - like players, ref's make mistakes.  That said, a ball 2-3 feet off the ground going forward doesn't make a 90 degree turn for no reason.  Just because we played the ball with intent last doesn't me we were the last thing to impact it.
     
  47. Heinie Wagner

    Heinie Wagner Member SoSH Member

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    Can anyone who is an official answer if that's how you're trained?  If you don't see it get tipped, but it changes directions, do you make the call based on the logic that it must have been tipped?  Or do you have to see it to call it?
     
  48. CPT Neuron

    CPT Neuron Got Pitching? SoSH Member

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    In the HS game, it is always the 2 ref system that is the worst for soccer.  There is inevitably 1 of the 2 refs that doesn't work at their craft in a manner that is required for a 2 ref system.  With a 3 ref system in place, the game is just better and so much more safe for the players.  An AR running the sides more likely than not gets that call right, but 1 of 2 refs running 20-30 yards away from the play, if they are running at all, with a bad angle has no chance to get a call like that right, and its unfortunate for the players.  
     
  49. CPT Neuron

    CPT Neuron Got Pitching? SoSH Member

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    I guess i wasn't very clear in my original post - typically, I don't make too much noise to the refs, again, they can have good and bad games, just like players.  That said, put in your shift when you're out there.  Work to be in a position to make the call and keep the kids safe without becoming "the game".  The best games are those when you never even know the ref was there, and there are some refs who really, really make that happen with ease.  They work hard, are consistent, and appear to have great pride in what they do.  Others, show up for the paycheck and don't put in even the bare minimum to do a passable job - and that is unfair to the kids playing the game, who have worked diligently at their craft.
     
  50. Omar's Wacky Neighbor

    Omar's Wacky Neighbor Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Amen to that, CPT.  At our HS boys parents meeting, the V coach opened the meeting with "HS refs are horrible.  We know that, and you'll know that soon enough.  So just save yourselves the aggravation, and dont even point it out to them".  And way too many HS refs that are on the other end of the field feel the need to overrule the ref who was closer to the play, even when they have no better line of sight or insight to the play.
     

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