World Series 2018--Red Sox vs. Dodgers

tims4wins

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I was thinking all day yesterday that game 3 could turn out kind of like the game 3 obstruction play from 2013. A minor footnote if the Sox could put it behind them and win the series. This may not be the most talented team in Sox history but it is the most relentless, confident team in Sox history.
 

DeadlySplitter

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it's insane how much flak Roberts is getting.

what about the front office that built that suspect bullpen?
 

Mugsy's Jock

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One of my favorite images of the game is the Dodger Fan who makes a great snag of Pearce's game-tying home-run and reacts - not with excitement of catching a World Series home-run ball - but with resignation that his team has just blown the lead.
And extra points for wearing a Juan Uribe Jersey.
 

joe dokes

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I thought Roberts made the right call on Hill but I dont get his BP management . Why no Jansen for the 9th? . I couldnt watch the end. Those bums he ran out there in the 9th let the game get beyond reach for them. They had no business being out there in the 9th

Cora is lucky the team bailed him out . Nobody will remember Erod staying in too long.

This loss must knock the stuffing out of the Dodgers. They must feel their manager is killing them this series and IMO they would be right

Game 5 should be a joy to watch. Price over Sale is interesting but I agree. Not sure how many bullets Sale has in him
There's nothing "lucky" about Cora's success, in general or in particular to this game.
 

lapa

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100% agree. Way too much focus on in game stuff. Sure that can go either way and then you look like a genius or idiot

The reality is more like how has Cora treated his players face to face while working their asses off for 6-7 months that provides the foundations for the teams attitude and identity ( sure it then becomes easily self reinforcing if you have a lot of talent and win). Cora has this team believing they aren’t out of any game. Results have backed this up. He’s also clearly shown that he knows shit happens that he’s not above making mistakes but they will be back in the next game ready to give it 100%
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Sorry if this was posted already but thought this was interesting: "The Red Sox are the 2nd team in World Series history to hit game-tying HR in the 8th inning or later in back-to-back games. The other was the 2001 Yankees, who hit game-tying HR in the bottom of the 9th in Games 4 and 5 -- both off D-backs reliever Byung-Hyun Kim."

 

joe dokes

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100% agree. Way too much focus on in game stuff. Sure that can go either way and then you look like a genius or idiot

The reality is more like how has Cora treated his players face to face while working their asses off for 6-7 months that provides the foundations for the teams attitude and identity ( sure it then becomes easily self reinforcing if you have a lot of talent and win). Cora has this team believing they aren’t out of any game. Results have backed this up. He’s also clearly shown that he knows shit happens that he’s not above making mistakes but they will be back in the next game ready to give it 100%
And in the micro, he's the same guy that chose EdRo to pitch in the first place.
 

Zomp

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Is anyone expecting Cora to sit JD tonight? I think the guy is clearly swinging hurt. In The at bat against Jansen it looked to me like he was laboring pretty bad. If there was a game to rest him a bit and bring him in to pinch hit it would be this one.
 

joe dokes

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Is anyone expecting Cora to sit JD tonight? I think the guy is clearly swinging hurt. In The at bat against Jansen it looked to me like he was laboring pretty bad. If there was a game to rest him a bit and bring him in to pinch hit it would be this one.
I expect Cora to do the exact right thing.

But seriously....you have a point. Play the defense. Keep him off his feet (ankles?) unless he's needed to PH or (if necessary) DH.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Is anyone expecting Cora to sit JD tonight? I think the guy is clearly swinging hurt. In The at bat against Jansen it looked to me like he was laboring pretty bad. If there was a game to rest him a bit and bring him in to pinch hit it would be this one.
When did he get hurt? I saw that AB against Jansen and he did seem a little odd but was watching at a party with music playing over the sound.... so I couldn't hear anything if he got hurt but I don't recall anything from earlier.
If so yeah.... go full D and use him after 5 inning if needed
 

Sox Puppet

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Lol, that last part of the quote from Holt cracked me up:

"We didn't want to see him mad anymore. So we decided to start swinging the bats a little bit." ...
Glad to know the powers of "unhinged Chris" can be used for good, not evil.

This reminds me of the legendary Jason Heyward rallying speech to the Cubs in Game 7 of the 2016 series. It's cool when a player who hasn't been contributing much on the field can still find a way to spark the team.
 

BaseballJones

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Joe Kelly, in 13 postseason games with the Red Sox:

16.2 ip, 12 h, 2 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 14 k, 0.54 era, 0.72 whip, 7.6 k/9

Pretty impressive stuff.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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On the Vazquez non-interference call ..

- this should be reviewable

- much has been said about Vazquez not creating an angle to throw to first, thus avoiding the runner. I don’t think he had time. There was a pretty good chance Bellinger was going to be safe as it was. Secondly, the throw from Pearce was high and he had to jump. Which ruined any chance to create momentum for the throw.

- I think the throw not hitting the runner contributed to the non call. If he had plunked him in the back they probably get the call.

- It was blatant interference.
 

simplyeric

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That was a devestating loss for the dodgers. The comparisons to Game 4 of the '04 ALCS are appropriate. It reminded me more of Superbowl LI. I don’t see how they overcome this. It’s not just the loss but the effect it had on the pitching staff that puts them at a disadvantage going forward.

At this point, best case scenario is they go back to Fenway down 3-2, and regroup.
Good work here.
+1


On the Vazquez non-interference call ..

- this should be reviewable

- much has been said about Vazquez not creating an angle to throw to first, thus avoiding the runner. I don’t think he had time. There was a pretty good chance Bellinger was going to be safe as it was. Secondly, the throw from Pearce was high and he had to jump. Which ruined any chance to create momentum for the throw.

- I think the throw not hitting the runner contributed to the non call. If he had plunked him in the back they probably get the call.

- It was blatant interference.
You’re saying Bellinger interfered with the throw? I don’t think that would have been the right call (Although I also think it would have been defensible if it was called). Bellinger wasn’t running outside the lane intentionally to interfere (I know intent doesn’t matter). His feet seem to be in or on the lane (on the chalk counts). And the intersection in question happens right at the bag, where the runner has leeway (per the rulebook) to get back to where he can get to the bag.
Vazquez had a terrible angle because of the high throw. It is what it is, and I’m SO glad it’s a footnote.
 

Pitt the Elder

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Two questions I'm curious to know the answer to so far this series:

-what's the pitchfx tally of incorrect balls and strike calls for each team so far this series? I generally believe that bad calls even out and bad calls that go against us aren't more likely, just more salient, but I feel like there's been an asymetric pattern this series.

-what is up with the field at Dodger stadium? The grass looks chewed up as if there was a football game the night before. No football teams play there, right? Was there a concert recently? If the field was in good shape, Kinsler doesn't loose his fitting in game 3 and we win that game.
 

simplyeric

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Oh and I have a man-crush on Eovaldi. Really bummed that the bats couldn’t get it done for him yesterday (at 3am or whatever). To come and basically make a shut-down start, out of the pen, in the World Series... balls on that guy.
I was SO glad to hear that Cora and the team made a point of celebrating that, even with the loss.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Good work here.
You’re saying Bellinger interfered with the throw? I don’t think that would have been the right call (Although I also think it would have been defensible if it was called). Bellinger wasn’t running outside the lane intentionally to interfere (I know intent doesn’t matter). His feet seem to be in or on the lane (on the chalk counts). And the intersection in question happens right at the bag, where the runner has leeway (per the rulebook) to get back to where he can get to the bag.
Vazquez had a terrible angle because of the high throw. It is what it is, and I’m SO glad it’s a footnote.
Bellinger was well inside the lane within the last half of his trip to first, however, so all you need to do is argue that Pearce's view of the ball coming or his positioning was impacted by that and it's no-doubt interference by the rule. It is not solely a question of the last few feet. That is why I think it's a pretty clear call, in retrospect.

I do think Cora should have forced an umpire huddle on that one---it was likely interference, and it is not clear anyone even considered it on the field, so that's a miss.
 

DJnVa

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Postseason RBI leaders:

Martinez--13 (46 ABs)
Machado--12 (62 ABs)
Bradley--10 (40 ABs)
Devers--9 (30 ABs)
Gonzalez--9 (33 ABs)
Pearce--8 (34 ABs)

That's a lot of production by Bradley, Devers, and Pearce.

(Yes, I know RBI is flawed.)
 

bigq

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That's a lot of production by Bradley, Devers, and Pearce.
Particularly given that none of them is a lock to start in an NL park. Speaks to the depth of the team. Man I love this Red Sox team.
 

DontTauntOrtizMe

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He rolled it in game 1 but I think it’s worse than they’re letting on.
I agree he has looked terrible at the plate. However, when X singled in the 8th, JDM went from first to third and looked like he was moving just fine.
 

ricopetro6

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On the Vazquez non-interference call ..

- this should be reviewable

- much has been said about Vazquez not creating an angle to throw to first, thus avoiding the runner. I don’t think he had time. There was a pretty good chance Bellinger was going to be safe as it was. Secondly, the throw from Pearce was high and he had to jump. Which ruined any chance to create momentum for the throw.

- I think the throw not hitting the runner contributed to the non call. If he had plunked him in the back they probably get the call.

- It was blatant interference.
he was certainly in fair territory running down the line. This used to be called quite often in the past, not so much lately. Don't know why this can't be reviewed, it certainly isn't a judgment call, it's where hes feet are.
 

bigq

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It may be flawed, but it shows you who has been good with RISP.
The Red Sox have been historically good with two outs and RISP this postseason.

https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-delivering-with-two-outs-risp/c-299640296

With runners in scoring position and two outs this postseason, the Sox are an unprecedented 17-for-41 (.415) with three doubles, a triple, three homers and 31 RBIs. To put that in perspective, the next-highest team batting average for a postseason club with at least 30 at-bats in those situations belongs to the 1910 Philadelphia A's (.394).
 

Mighty Joe Young

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he was certainly in fair territory running down the line. This used to be called quite often in the past, not so much lately. Don't know why this can't be reviewed, it certainly isn't a judgment call, it's where hes feet are.
After looking at the replay again .. Vazquez’s throw is actually to the foul side of the line - if Pearce has moved across the bag he might have had a chance at it. Mind you that’s really dangerous.
 

singaporesoxfan

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Postseason RBI leaders:

Martinez--13 (46 ABs)
Machado--12 (62 ABs)
Bradley--10 (40 ABs)
Devers--9 (30 ABs)
Gonzalez--9 (33 ABs)
Pearce--8 (34 ABs)

That's a lot of production by Bradley, Devers, and Pearce.

(Yes, I know RBI is flawed.)
RBI is flawed as a predictor of what might happen next and as a means of comparison (given its dependency on opportunity). But as a descriptor of what actually happened - as in this case - it's perfectly good
 

DJnVa

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After looking at the replay again .. Vazquez’s throw is actually to the foul side of the line - if Pearce has moved across the bag he might have had a chance at it. Mind you that’s really dangerous.
Here's the rule:

(11) In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of) the foul line, and in the umpire's judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he may run outside (to the right of) the three-foot line or inside (to the left of) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;

Rule 5.09(a)(11) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter-runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines marking the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three-foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.
Can someone get a freeze frame of the runner last night?
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Here's the rule:



Can someone get a freeze frame of the runner last night?
Not a freeze frame, but here's the video:

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/red-sox-vs-dodgers/2018/10/27/563410#game_state=final,lock_state=final,game_tab=videos,game=563410

Watch from about 0:44 to 0:48. Both of his feet are on the wrong side of the line throughout. It's not a fuzzy, borderline thing.

In fact, on the later angle at about 0:52, you can see that he does the exact reverse of what the rules say he's allowed to do--instead of moving across the line to the inside as he approaches the bag, that's the only time he ever gets to the outside, i.e., where he's supposed to be all along.

That said, it's certainly consistent with normal umpiring practice that they didn't call it. I don't really understand why they have the rule, when they obviously don't think it should be enforced.

Not that any of it matters now.
 
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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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So just a few small ruminations on my understanding of the runner’s lane interference play last night. If nothing else the Red Sox in the playoffs over the last several years have involved some pretty funky rules and rules interpretations.

For RLI you need two elements. Runner out of the lane except for his final approach into first base to touch it, and interference. I don’t think runner out of the lane is controversial here.

So that leaves interference. The runner must interfere with the throw or act of fielding. This is sort of like the word “prevented” in the spectator interference rule we all just learned about. It requires the umpire to judge that the play would probably have been successfully completed but for the interference.

But here’s the crucial part. In making that determination the umpire is not allowed to consider that the throw might have been affected by the runner being in the wrong place. This is counterintuitive and different from the rules in high school. We saw an example of this in a Yankees game last year where the catcher had no lane and tried to throw the ball above the runner and the first baseman had no chance to catch it. No RLI.

So, the ump must take the throw as it comes. And then determine whether there was a realistic chance of getting the out on the throw that was made taking into account fielder placement, runner proximity to the bag, and location of the throw. Traditionally, in MLB they seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the team that is batting, which seems a little backward to me.

So, there was definitely hinderance of Pearce’s ability to make the play but is it realistic to assume the out would have been made? I don’t think so. I think the interference here affected the throw not the act of fielding by the the first baseman but it’s fucking close and reasonable minds totally can differ.

If the runner is not where he is supposed to be and he’s blocking your throw you have to drill him to get the call. So long as the first baseman is in position and the batter wasn’t about to touch first base, that’s the best way to show interence because that play always looks like the first baseman would make the play. But the runner causing the fielder to make a bad throw that then would have required a spectacular play by the first baseman is perhaps unfairly not RLI in MLB.
 
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reggiecleveland

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I agree he has looked terrible at the plate. However, when X singled in the 8th, JDM went from first to third and looked like he was moving just fine.
An ankle injury usually does not bother straight line running. If you cut the bag with your good ankle you are fine.

In the field on balls hit to him in the last two games, Did you notice he seems to get late breaks then have to run faster than expected? He is getting his read then figuring out the foot work, then sprinting. Looks like a smart athlete playing around/through an injury.

Also hitting being so much about base, and feel a bad ankle can mess a guy up.
 

joe dokes

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So just a few small ruminations on my understanding of the runner’s lane interference play last night. If nothing else the Red Sox in the playoffs over the last several years have involved some pretty funky rules and rules interpretations.

For RLI you need two elements. Runner out of the lane except for his final approach into first base to touch it, and interference. I don’t think runner out of the lane is controversial here.

So that leaves interference. The runner must interfere with the throw or act of fielding. This is sort of like the word “prevented” in the spectator interference rule we all just learned about. It requires the umpire to judge that the play would probably have been successfully completed but for the interference.

But here’s the crucial part. In making that determination the umpire is not allowed to consider that the throw might have been affected by the runner being in the wrong place. This is counterintuitive and different from the rules in high school. We saw an example of this in a Yankees game last year where the catcher had no lane and tried to throw the ball above the runner and the first baseman had no chance to catch it. No RLI.

So, the ump must take the throw as it comes. And then determine whether there was a realistic chance of getting the out on the throw that was made taking into account fielder placement, runner proximity to the bag, and location of the throw. Traditionally, in MLB they seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the team that is batting, which seems a little backward to me.

So, there was definitely hinderance of Pearce’s ability to make the play but is it realistic to assume the out would have been made? I don’t think so. I think the interference her affected the throw not the act of fielding by the the first baseman but it’s fucking close and reasonable minds totally can differ.

If the runner is not where he is supposed to be and he’s blocking your throw you have to drill him to get the call. So long as the first baseman is in position and the batter wasn’t about to touch first base, that’s the best way to show interence because that play always looks like the first baseman would make the play. But the runner causing the fielder to make a bad throw that then would have required a spectacular play by the first baseman is perhaps unfairly not RLI in MLB.
I thought interference in real time and replay, but I think this is about right. The call is rarely made, and I can't recall it being made where the ball doesn't hit the batter/runner. Probably for the reason you say. It's harder (but far from impossible) to say "Vazquez threw an uncatchable ball because of the runner" than it is to say "Pearce would've caught it in time if the ball hadn't hit the runner."

I suppose it's a cousin of "the runner can't claim interference by the 3rd baseman if he doesn't try to go home and get thrown out."
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
If the runner is not where he is supposed to be and he’s blocking your throw you have to drill him to get the call.
The funny part, looking at the video again, is that I think this is exactly what Vaz was trying to do. Vaz could have gotten the out with a throw to the infield side of the foul line, a backhand reach for the righthanded Pearce. Instead he threw straight down the line, right at Bellinger -- and missed him, barely. And that actually may be why the run scored, because while Holt was a bit late getting to the play, he was in position to back up a throw to the infield side of the line if Pearce had missed it.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Bellinger was well inside the lane within the last half of his trip to first, however, so all you need to do is argue that Pearce's view of the ball coming or his positioning was impacted by that and it's no-doubt interference by the rule. It is not solely a question of the last few feet. That is why I think it's a pretty clear call, in retrospect.

I do think Cora should have forced an umpire huddle on that one---it was likely interference, and it is not clear anyone even considered it on the field, so that's a miss.
There is one angle of the play I saw on the international MLBNetwork feed. The HP ump made a quick and dirty safe signal after having to look that Vaz did get the corner of the plate. Cora did come out but the HP ump was the only hope of that getting to a huddle and overturned, and I think the HP ump never actually saw the play.

I’m not sure if this feed is readily available anywhere outside of rerunning on MLBNetwork, I will look.
 

DeadlySplitter

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RBI is flawed as a predictor of what might happen next and as a means of comparison (given its dependency on opportunity). But as a descriptor of what actually happened - as in this case - it's perfectly good
So is ERA. The inestimable Ryan Madson has a mere 3.86!
 

AB in DC

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There is one angle of the play I saw on the international MLBNetwork feed. The HP ump made a quick and dirty safe signal after having to look that Vaz did get the corner of the plate. Cora did come out but the HP ump was the only hope of that getting to a huddle and overturned, and I think the HP ump never actually saw the play.

I’m not sure if this feed is readily available anywhere outside of rerunning on MLBNetwork, I will look.
Another question is whether Bellinger just flat out beat the throw. I'm not sure a good throw would have gotten him -- it was very, very close, and Pearce had no time to stretch for the throw.
 

Average Reds

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Another question is whether Bellinger just flat out beat the throw. I'm not sure a good throw would have gotten him -- it was very, very close, and Pearce had no time to stretch for the throw.
I think he absolutely had the throw beat. And i never thought it was interference because he is entitled to be where he was when he gets to the bag.

I do understand that he was inside the line the entire way, but I can’t see the umps calling that.
 

Humphrey

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It's also one play where it's a big advantage if you have a left handed throwing first baseman...he sets up a target for the catcher that's pretty far to the infield side of the runner. If Pierce does that the throw has to be perfect (which it wouldn't have been).
 

sean1562

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I dont understand a ton of the flak Roberts is getting either. We blew Eovaldi with Game three, but they torched their entire pen. Baez and Urias had pitched in every game of the series before last night. 18 innings takes a toll on everyone, we had to get to their spent pen, and that is exactly what happened. Not a lot of good options when everyone in your pen is gassed. They just got beat.
 

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The game threads have been pretty much unreadable the last couple years. What used to be one of my favorite things about SOSH is not easily the thing I avoid the most.
Not to whine about whining, but if half the game thread posters were sitting behind me at the game, I'd have to change my seats (versus what I'd do if I were 30 years younger). It makes me wonder why some of them are even baseball fans.
 

DeadlySplitter

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upload_2018-10-28_12-20-59.png

this is the best frame I can get on FOX for what I'm trying to point out. the HP ump takes a LONG time to look at home plate because Vaz was only on the corner of it, and is very delayed starting to look to 1st.

Cora was said to be out for awhile after the play. FOX drones on about Machado but he was clearly safe. I think Cora tried but with the HP ump so multitasked here it wasn't in the cards for any chance of an overturn.

the solution is to make it reviewable.
 

Seels

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I genuinely don't understand what the point is of making anything reviewable if you don't make everything reviewable. It all seems super arbitrary.

edit: Also Vaz should have held the ball, regardless of whether it was interference or not. He has 0 chance of making that throw.