World B. Flat: Kyrie Irving on being "a generational leader"

kazuneko

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While I am perfectly willing to admit I was wrong about last year's trade to get him (2018 Kyrie was better than ever, IT was a disaster, and the Nets draft pick ended up falling below the top 5), I still cringe every time this man opens his mouth. He's like an African-American, millennial version version of Trump, except he is somehow even less coherent and inexplicably sees himself as "progressive". In his latest interview he's declared himself a "generational leader", said he wants to start his own television network, and again weighed in with what he apparently thinks is one of the great scientific debates of our times: whether or not the world is flat.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2018/06/09/kyrie-irving-doesnt-know-if-the-earth-is-round-or-flat-he-does-want-to-discuss-it
 

DJnVa

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--His "world is flat" thing isn't literal. He thinks he's "starting a conversation" or whatever about not listening to everything people say. It's kooky, but I don't think it's literal.

--The TV network thing---so what? Seems like a cool aspiration for someone after they retire.

--On being a "generational leader", our current culture elevates athletes to levels where we ask them to comment on politics and specific policy. *We* did that. *We* put athletes on the pedestal like that.

I hate that you brought Trump into this in the first place, but there's no way that makes sense to me at all. Perhaps others disagree, but that seems like a YUGE stretch.
 

Reverend

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Guy never had to answer for taking IT's place when he got here because everyone was talking about how he believed the earth was flat.

I think he's a genius.
 

kazuneko

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--His "world is flat" thing isn't literal. He thinks he's "starting a conversation" or whatever about not listening to everything people say. It's kooky, but I don't think it's literal.

--The TV network thing---so what? Seems like a cool aspiration for someone after they retire.

--On being a "generational leader", our current culture elevates athletes to levels where we ask them to comment on politics and specific policy. *We* did that. *We* put athletes on the pedestal like that.

I hate that you brought Trump into this in the first place, but there's no way that makes sense to me at all. Perhaps others disagree, but that seems like a YUGE stretch.
He's a moron and like Trump he is too narcissistic to be aware of his own stupidity. This fuels an "intellectual curiosity" which is nothing more than an ignorant man pondering things he is either too dumb to understand or never bothered to learn. Sadly, he is alive in an era that -inexplicably- encourages any moron, famous for anything, to see themselves as a legitimate voice on issues they know absolutely nothing about. I guess what I really fear is that Kyrie may be right, in an era where narcissism trumps knowledge, Irving may very well be the perfect star to end up "a generational leader" .
 
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queenb

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He's a moron and like Trump he is too narcissistic to be aware of his own stupidity. This fuels an "intellectual curiosity" which is nothing more than any ignorant man pondering things he is either too dumb to understand or never bothered to learn. Sadly, he is alive in an era that -inexplicably- encourages any moron, famous for anything, to see themselves as a legitimate voice on issues they know absolutely nothing about. I guess what I really fear is that Kyrie may be right, in an era where narcissism trumps knowledge, Irving may very well be the perfect star to end up "a generational leader" .
Well-said. It's also dangerous to just have your basic self-concept be that of "generational leader," which seems to be the case here. If you say something, no matter how stupid, and everyone disagrees with you, you may just see it as yet another of your individual features that separates you from the herd, and more proof that you're exceptional.
 

nighthob

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I hate that you brought Trump into this in the first place, but there's no way that makes sense to me at all. Perhaps others disagree, but that seems like a YUGE stretch.
In fairness KyrieVP hit some yuuuuge shots for Boston.
 

chilidawg

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Kyrie reminds me more of Bill Walton, full of entertaining, half baked ideas, marching to his own drummer. It infuriates many, I find it mostly amusing, but it hardly compares to he who shall not be named.
 

snowmanny

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Somebody here - wish I could recall who - once posted that Kyrie believes that he is the thinker that the rest of us see manifested in Jaylen Brown.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, he's like a lot of millenials--it's just that most are sitting Starbucks, spewing their wisdom on twitter.
 

Marciano490

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Donald Trump is a racist, jingoistic menace. Kyrie sucks at astrology or astronomy or whatever.
 

Spelunker

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He's a moron and like Trump he is too narcissistic to be aware of his own stupidity. This fuels an "intellectual curiosity" which is nothing more than an ignorant man pondering things he is either too dumb to understand or never bothered to learn. Sadly, he is alive in an era that -inexplicably- encourages any moron, famous for anything, to see themselves as a legitimate voice on issues they know absolutely nothing about. I guess what I really fear is that Kyrie may be right, in an era where narcissism trumps knowledge, Irving may very well be the perfect star to end up "a generational leader" .
It's mostly harmless, but he's basically Jaden Smith with a jumpshot.
 

slamminsammya

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He's a moron and like Trump he is too narcissistic to be aware of his own stupidity.
May I direct you to this passage from that interview:

Q. You’ve been coy about what you really believe, so I’m hoping you’ll clarify here. Do you or do you not believe the Earth is flat? Or do you not know?

A. That’s what I’m asking you. No, no, no. Can you openly admit that you know the Earth is constitutionally round? Like, you know that for sure? Like, I don’t know. I was never trying to convince anyone that the world is flat. I’m not being an advocate for the world being completely flat. No, I don’t know. I really don’t. It’s fun to think about though. It’s fun to have that conversation. It is absolutely fun because people get so agitated and mad. They’re like, “Hey man, you can’t believe that, man. It’s religious, man. It’s just science. You can’t believe anything else. OK?” Cool, well, explain to me. Give me what you’ve known about the Earth and your research, and I love it. I love talking about it.
I don't think that he does a good job of explaining himself in a clear way, but I do think there is a good point that he is making here. In some sense he's taking this mathematical approach to things, sort of asking whether people are able to recreate their beliefs from first principles. Could he have explained it better? Yes, I am not sure that he even means what I think he means.

Does that make him narcissistic? I don't know man, it seems pretty harmless.


Al Horford spent years trolling everyone with his flinching thing.
 

oumbi

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May I direct you to this passage from that interview:



I don't think that he does a good job of explaining himself in a clear way, but I do think there is a good point that he is making here. In some sense he's taking this mathematical approach to things, sort of asking whether people are able to recreate their beliefs from first principles. Could he have explained it better? Yes, I am not sure that he even means what I think he means.

Does that make him narcissistic? I don't know man, it seems pretty harmless.


Al Horford spent years trolling everyone with his flinching thing.
And the bolded may very well be an artifact of poor, unclear, and simplistic thinking. Which may in turn be the result of a simple mind. After reading Kyrie's passage above, I did not see anything particularly profound or careful in his thinking. I join with Kozuneko's take on this.

Great that he is great at basketball. That ability does not seem to have carried over into the field of science.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Some of you will honestly bitch for the sake of finding something to bitch about. This is really much ado about nothing.
 

RG33

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Kyrie is basically the Rev of basketball. He says a lot of stuff, nobody really understands it, and you sit there and simultaneously think “moron” and “genius” at the same time. Kyire = Rev.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't get all the hate. Kyrie is not a scientist, nor is he pretending to be. I don't really get why anyone cares whether he thinks the world may be flat, or if he thinks we should question our beliefs on the shape of the planet. Or if he's simply trolling the media. And the "generational leader" comment is one line in an interview; way overblown. And, if he truly thinks that, does anyone beyond his close friends really need to care?

Lots of professional athletes have gotten involved in broadcast networks after their careers; if Kyrie wants to do it, good for him. If every pro athlete was Bill Belichick when talking to the media, the sports world would be a lot more boring.
 

InstaFace

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He's somewhere between trolling (trying to get a rise out of people) and bullshitting (neither knowing nor caring whether he's making factual statements). It is pretty damn certain, though, that he does not sincerely believe that the earth is flat. Where was that radio interview a few days after he was traded here? He basically said as much.

You guys are reading at least 10x the importance into his statements on this subject as they deserved to be, or were intended to carry. Maybe 100x.
 
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LondonSox

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I don't get all the hate. Kyrie is not a scientist, nor is he pretending to be. I don't really get why anyone cares whether he thinks the world may be flat, or if he thinks we should question our beliefs on the shape of the planet. Or if he's simply trolling the media. And the "generational leader" comment is one line in an interview; way overblown. And, if he truly thinks that, does anyone beyond his close friends really need to care?

Lots of professional athletes have gotten involved in broadcast networks after their careers; if Kyrie wants to do it, good for him. If every pro athlete was Bill Belichick when talking to the media, the sports world would be a lot more boring.
The problem for me is that it's all funny and a joke to him.
He laughs in that interview when told a story about a teacher being unable to convince his class that the world is flat, because of Kyrie.

He finds that hilarious, I have a problem with that.
 

slamminsammya

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The problem for me is that it's all funny and a joke to him.
He laughs in that interview when told a story about a teacher being unable to convince his class that the world is flat, because of Kyrie.

He finds that hilarious, I have a problem with that.
Won't anyone think of the children?

The fact that a science teacher couldn't convince his class about the shape of the world because of what some basketball player said is maybe troubling if you take the story at face value. I think it is funny personally - most likely the kids themselves were just trolling. Kyrie has no responsibility in that scenario. A science teacher should be able to convince their students that the earth is round. If they can't it isn't the fault or responsibility of some random celebrity.
 

LondonSox

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Won't anyone think of the children?

The fact that a science teacher couldn't convince his class about the shape of the world because of what some basketball player said is maybe troubling if you take the story at face value. I think it is funny personally - most likely the kids themselves were just trolling. Kyrie has no responsibility in that scenario. A science teacher should be able to convince their students that the earth is round. If they can't it isn't the fault or responsibility of some random celebrity.
Right. I mean do you have any kids?
He really should be praised for laughing about making kids less informed and fucking up their education because "it's funny"
He's an idiot or a troll. We have enough dumb trolls in the spotlight at the moment.

He's good at basketball he's busy making movies can't he just not conspiracy theory everything?
 

luckiestman

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I was driving down the street a few weeks ago with my wife & kids, 2 neighborhood kids riding their bikes start laughing and screaming at us “the earth is flat”’

These are the type of small things that make life fun.
 

slamminsammya

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Right. I mean do you have any kids?
He really should be praised for laughing about making kids less informed and fucking up their education because "it's funny"
He's an idiot or a troll. We have enough dumb trolls in the spotlight at the moment.

He's good at basketball he's busy making movies can't he just not conspiracy theory everything?
No one is praising him or saying he should be. If an education can be fucked up by a basketball player messing around then it isn't an education is all.

I am not defending Kyrie Irving. But this thread has seen one poster compare him to Donald Trump and another agreed with that take. I mean...

They say in space when you look down at the (round) earth so many things seem so very trivial.
 

LondonSox

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But come on education in America is bad, for so many. Particularly African American neighborhoods and school for some reason, have worse education AND are more influenced by people like Kyrie.
They buy his shoes, they want to be like him.

It's totally true, well educated wealthy people won't have so much to worry about. Great.

I know it feels like it's silly. Is should be silly. I don't think it is. And I think there are players who know this, and some who don't. Kyrie needs to grow up, he is welcome to do as he wishes but this is harmful for him, and harmful for real people. It's should be funny. It would be great.

It's minor in the big scheme, I know that, it doesn't mean it should be accepted.
 

Nick Kaufman

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May I direct you to this passage from that interview:



I don't think that he does a good job of explaining himself in a clear way, but I do think there is a good point that he is making here. In some sense he's taking this mathematical approach to things, sort of asking whether people are able to recreate their beliefs from first principles. Could he have explained it better? Yes, I am not sure that he even means what I think he means.

Does that make him narcissistic? I don't know man, it seems pretty harmless.

Al Horford spent years trolling everyone with his flinching thing.
He doesn't do a good job of explaining himself, because his thought is muddled to begin with. Also, I am sorry, but the position that it's worth having the conversation about whether the world is round or flat is bullshit. The word is round. Science isn't a religion; it's the opposite of religion because science doesn't ask to believe sight unseen, science asks you to prove what you say; and it' s been proven pretty conclusively that the world is round. Also, the stratagem of not stating a position openly, but instead claiming that you re only asking questions is more often than not disingenuous and too clever by half.

The other way one can take what Kyrie is saying is that it's fun to have the conversation because people get mad about it. Getting people mad on purpose in order to entertain yourself is trolling. I will admit that trolling can sometimes be funny, but we have too much of it in this world and it often crosses the line into abuse.

The strange thing is that other than the flat earth thing, I like the other things I see from Kyrie. He does seem grounded and well put together. But this flat earth stuff is just out there.
 

kazuneko

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Well-said. It's also dangerous to just have your basic self-concept be that of "generational leader," which seems to be the case here. If you say something, no matter how stupid, and everyone disagrees with you, you may just see it as yet another of your individual features that separates you from the herd, and more proof that you're exceptional.
I think this is part of the phenomenon. Both Trump and Irving see themselves as "geniuses" because they are willing to address topics no one else does. If they were smarter they might realize that no one else addresses these topics for valid reasons, or that at the very least, they don't actually know much about the topic and might be jumping to conclusions. They don't do this because they view the world through the lens of their narcissism (i.e. "if I don't understand it, it must be the rest of the world that"s ignorant"). I think you see a similar thing going on with both Kanye and Lavar Bell, and sadly, throughout Trump's America. When a moron thinks he's a genius the explanation is usually narcissism, and we, unfortunately, now live in a culture that increasingly gives narcissists a platform.
One interesting aspect of this phenomenon is that a big reason these people are given a platform is that a lot of us enjoy following their words and deeds so that we can look down on them. Narcissistic morons are fun to mock and make for great gossip. That's what makes them the bread and butter of reality TV. That is what has made Trump the most discussed person in the history of the country.
The sad part is not everyone is in on the joke. While many of us see these people as walking punchlines, there are many others who are inspired by their bravado. We are used to people speaking more cautiously in public. Traditionally, politicians and others carefully negotiate a mine field of potential judgment in each public statement. Meanwhile, the narcissistic moron is too sure of themselves to pander, and in their ignorance, directly addresses issues no one else is willing to touch. The fact that their opinions are ignorant, while appalling to some, can seem bold and inspiring to others, especially for those members of society who are similarly unknowledgeable and otherwise inclined to discount their opinions.
 
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IdiotKicker

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If we are educating our kids poorly enough that this stuff matters and legitimately sways them, that’s kind of an “us” problem, not a “Kyrie” problem.

I, for one, welcome our new two-dimensional overlords.
 

lexrageorge

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Athletes say dumb stuff all the time; I've heard far worse than Kyrie calling himself a "generational leader". Most pro athletes are both entitled and self-absorbed. Just don't understand the need to call out Kyrie specifically. If kids think the world is flat, or that science is a bunch of BS, it's not because of Kyrie.
 

allstonite

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Somebody here - wish I could recall who - once posted that Kyrie believes that he is the thinker that the rest of us see manifested in Jaylen Brown.
I think that was me. I heard it from Tyler on the Mickstape podcast and I think put it here somwhere and I absolutely believe that's part of it. I also think there's a lot of stoner wisdom. He's like a college freshman and Jaylen is a grad student. He's "asking questions" and Jaylen is looking for answers. It's mostly harmless an kind of funny. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be a generational leader
 

snowmanny

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Kyrie isn't very articulate. For example, I think the motivation behind his decision to ask for a trade was misrepresented by the media and his inability to clearly express himself was part of why that happened. The flat earth stuff is weird but I have zero (0) concerns that children are going to grow up disbelieving the round earth theory all because of Kyrie. That's a made up worry.
 

chilidawg

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He doesn't do a good job of explaining himself, because his thought is muddled to begin with. Also, I am sorry, but the position that it's worth having the conversation about whether the world is round or flat is bullshit. The word is round. Science isn't a religion; it's the opposite of religion because science doesn't ask to believe sight unseen, science asks you to prove what you say; and it' s been proven pretty conclusively that the world is round. Also, the stratagem of not stating a position openly, but instead claiming that you re only asking questions is more often than not disingenuous and too clever by half.
It's far more important to be able to rationally explain why the earth is round than it is to know the fact that it is. We've gotten away from this in many arenas, climate change being the most obvious. People claim truth or deny, without ever trying to understand. So yes, having the conversation about whether the earth is flat or round is worth having, especially with kids.
 

drbretto

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To me, it's not about Kyrie or any of this statements in a vacuum. It's that he's become another thought leader in the revolution against science. That's where he is dangerous. He's a symbol for every dumbass with a conspiracy theory. And that's why he's being compared to Trump and his base. They're all suffering from the same mental disease that's sweeping through the country, and beyond.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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If we are educating our kids poorly enough that this stuff matters and legitimately sways them, that’s kind of an “us” problem, not a “Kyrie” problem.

I, for one, welcome our new two-dimensional overlords.
Thank you. Agree completely.
 

Devizier

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It's far more important to be able to rationally explain why the earth is round...
Maybe, I don’t know. But this is easy: change your latitude, length of day changes, positions of stars in sky change. A known fact ever since people put boats on the water.

Besides the point anyways. I think too many people are expecting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar when it comes to their professional athletes when their expectations should be closer to John Matuszak.
 

lexrageorge

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Maybe, I don’t know. But this is easy: change your latitude, length of day changes, positions of stars in sky change. A known fact ever since people put boats on the water.

Besides the point anyways. I think too many people are expecting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar when it comes to their professional athletes when their expectations should be closer to John Matuszak.
You mean Kyrie will never be an airline pilot?
 

shaggydog2000

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I think Kyrie is the most inscrutable athlete of my life time. I can't recall anybody like him, where I can't definitively pin down a single characteristic he has. Is he dumb and believes the earth is flat? Is he smart and trolling us? Does he like Boston at all? Is he a team guy, an egotist, what motivates him? At any moment I can't read his emotions. He doesn't talk all that much, and when he does I can't tell if he's being honest or is just saying things in a detached way for some effect.

Some athletes I just knew were weird. Ricky Williams was an odd introspective cat. But it was obvious that he was once you saw enough of him. I didn't know exactly how he would feel on a given issue, but I knew it wouldn't be the most mainstream opinion. Or if it was, he would frame it in an unusual way. But Kyrie? I not only don't know what he would feel, but what he would say about it, and if those two things have anything to do with each other. But I don't really care if he sticks around and wins.
 

bsj

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If the guy is willing to re-sign and bring us championships he can think the world is a snowglobe being shaken up by an autistic child. I dont give a fuck.
 

DannyDarwinism

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If the guy is willing to re-sign and bring us championships he can think the world is a snowglobe being shaken up by an autistic child. I dont give a fuck.
Yeah, and to that end, Kyrie's misplaced skepticism seems a lot less like Trump's general intellectual nihilism and more like a spaced-out version of Tom Brady's antagonism to accepted principles of exercise science/human physiology and his reliance on a charlatan's pseudo-science. Brady's views on the benefits of alkaline diet may give me reason to think he's a little weird, but fuck that, 28-3.
 
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Nick Kaufman

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It's far more important to be able to rationally explain why the earth is round than it is to know the fact that it is. We've gotten away from this in many arenas, climate change being the most obvious. People claim truth or deny, without ever trying to understand. So yes, having the conversation about whether the earth is flat or round is worth having, especially with kids.
Just the concept of "having a conversation" implies that there are two sides on this issue both with some merit, both adopted by reasonable people. This is obviously not the case. Moreover, fighting mistaken ideas isn't as easy as it sounds. In my twitter feed, I have a professor of political communication who conducts research on fighting bad ideas like the anti-vaccine movement. While the science on this is far from conclusive, his work shows that there are no good ways of debating bad ideas like the anti-vaccine movement. Whether you take on each anti-vaccine argument point by point, or whether you choose to not mention them and just discuss the merits of having vaccines actually makes people more curious and open to the anti-vaccine ideas. It's a very serious problem, because obviously, these ideas spread around and they have serious public health consequences.

Even more than that, with the wide-adaptation of internet and the ability of each kook to spread his kooky ideas, what we have is a gradual erosion of both authority and expertise that is dangerous. Obviously noone is saying that authority should be blindly trusted or that expertise means that you are not mistaken. But the logic is as was said deeply nihilist and postmodern. In other words, people start thinking "if elites failed, if scientists were wrong, why shouldn't I listen or trust this guy (who is a charlatan)". This obscures the fact that there are degrees of error, that even though experts make mistakes (many extremely serious ones! ), they make far less mistakes than the kooks who question them.

So, no, we should not be having conversations about well-established science unless of course serious evidence that challenges it come to surface. But we need to find ways to deal with the erosion of expertise because if we don't so, at some point we will really end up watering fields with gatorade after electing President Camacho.
 

DJnVa

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I think some of you guys are having the very type of discussion Kyrie was talking about.
 

Sprowl

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I was driving down the street a few weeks ago with my wife & kids, 2 neighborhood kids riding their bikes start laughing and screaming at us “the earth is flat”’

These are the type of small things that make life fun.
Until you fall off the edge, then it's not so much fun anymore.

The ancient Greeks had a pretty good idea that the earth was round because during a lunar eclipse, they could see the earth cast a shadow with an arc in it.

Personally, I would just show Kyrie Earthrise December 24, 1968.

 

shaggydog2000

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Until you fall off the edge, then it's not so much fun anymore.

The ancient Greeks had a pretty good idea that the earth was round because during a lunar eclipse, they could see the earth cast a shadow with an arc in it.

Personally, I would just show Kyrie Earthrise December 24, 1968.

Man, Kubrick was really great at frame composition, wasn't he? What silo do you think he shot this one in?
 

lars10

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Kyrie isn't very articulate. For example, I think the motivation behind his decision to ask for a trade was misrepresented by the media and his inability to clearly express himself was part of why that happened. The flat earth stuff is weird but I have zero (0) concerns that children are going to grow up disbelieving the round earth theory all because of Kyrie. That's a made up worry.
From what I’ve seen in interviews...especially comedic settings.. I feel the exact opposite. He may have an odd way of saying things and a quirky sense of humor.. but the world is full of disinteresting, normal jerks. I think he’s a nice change from what’s normal.