Workman suspended for 6 games for throwing behind Longoria

[Doug Beerabelli]

I called MLB, too.  That was fun!

 

[judyb]

Let's focus on what MLB apparently has decided:
 
The ump believed (based on the comments from the crew chief) that the Ortiz HBP was intentional, thus used his discretion to issue warnings. In effect, MLB is saying the the "punishment" for Price consisted of being put on notice.
 
Farrell, who apparently wasn't fine or suspended, was throw out for arguing that, in his own words, "the ball was taken out of our hand," meanina a chance to retaliate.
 
MLB is ruling, apparently, that they considered the incident closed at the time of the warning. That Farrell wasn't punished would seem to infer that MLB wasn't all that thrilled with the ejection.
 
The umps did not believe the Carp HBP was intentional. The Sox were steamed, of course, and Luvollo was tossed for arguing the intent of that pitch.
 
The Workman and 3B coach ejections were do to the intent ruling on the pitch to Longoria -- which to the umps, and to MLB, was the only intentional action after the Ortiz HBP.
 
In essence, MLB made its ruling in regards only to the on-field happening AFTER in its mind the umpires had issued the initial warning.
 
You can hate it all you want. But it all turns on the HP ump decision to issue a warning to Price instead of immediate ejection. There's no reason in their minds to punish Price, given their thought process.

Except that it means that it's okay for pitchers to intentionally hit batters for any reason they want unless it's in retaliation for someone intentionally hitting one of their team's batters.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
 
I think this is an accurate recounting; but I am pretty sure that pitchers in Price's shoes, (warned but not ejected), have still been disciplined.  Or maybe I'm confusing it with a hockey "no-penalty-but-discipline" situation.

 
If I had to guess, I'd say that the warning was the discipline ... plus the knowledge that he'll be watched more closely against the Red Sox in the future.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Except that it means that it's okay for pitchers to intentionally hit batters for any reason they want unless it's in retaliation for someone intentionally hitting one of their team's batters.

 
Again, the umpiring crew thought it was intentional on Price's part ... but not to the level of ejection

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Isn't there some sort of syndrome where a victim bonds with his attacker?

I what universe is this fair? The worst brawl in baseball this season (Pirates Brewers) only netted a 3 game suspension for Carlos Gomez. I can't think of any ruling more egregious than this one. Even a child can understand this.

 
A three game suspension for Gomez is longer than a 6 game suspension for Workman.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Isn't there some sort of syndrome where a victim bonds with his attacker?

I what universe is this fair? The worst brawl in baseball this season (Pirates Brewers) only netted a 3 game suspension for Carlos Gomez. I can't think of any ruling more egregious than this one. Even a child can understand this.

 
Workman misses 1 game in which he would have played

 

[joe dokes]

 
If he could throw it at Joe Madden would you approve?  I'd be okay with a botched pickoff attempt airmailed towards their dug out

 
We need more "in the flow of the game," utterly inscrutable retaliation.  The well-aimed foul ball into the visitors dugout, the bunt that causes the pitcher to cover first and accidentally get a spike through his shoe.  What about a throw from an infielder that drills the batter-runner? I've *never* seen an infielder ejected because of that. 

 

[MakMan44]

I what universe is this fair? The worst brawl in baseball this season (Pirates Brewers) only netted a 3 game suspension for Carlos Gomez. I can't think of any ruling more egregious than this one. Even a child can understand this.

Pitcher suspensions are always going to look stupid as long as they go by "games." 6 probably guarantees he misses at least one start, which is all they care about. 

 

[LuckyBen]

 
If I had to guess, I'd say that the warning was the discipline ... plus the knowledge that he'll be watched more closely against the Red Sox in the future.

 
How is a warning a discipline?  The only team it hurt in that instance was the Red Sox.  You really think David Price will be worried about being watched more closely in the future?  He just got away with it completely clean, and made claims that he felt justified in doing so.

 

[Bone Chips]

 
A three game suspension for Gomez is longer than a 6 game suspension for Workman.

Not in the wallet.

 

[gatorgurl67]

 
They ever heard of the phone?

or Skype

 

[theapportioner]

I called them too!

 

[joe dokes]

 
If I had to guess, I'd say that the warning was the discipline ... plus the knowledge that he'll be watched more closely against the Red Sox in the future.

 
In hindsight, that looks to be what MLB did. I wasn't sure if you were saying that once he was warned and *not* ejected, that's *all* MLB *could* do. (I dont think that's the case).

 

[OfTheCarmen]

Maybe it's just selective memory, but I recall plenty of times where after "warnings had been declared" basically any HPB resulted in pitcher and manager ejections. 
 
If the warnings simply mean "any further perceived intentional HBP will result in ejections", that basically just means that you should always simply be the first team to obsviously intentionally hit someone from the other team.  Price being let off the hook after hitting Carp is still just completely mind boggling to me.  That wasnt a curveball that knicked off his shoe, or a changeup that just grazed into a knee that might be pretty close to the plate.  That was a heater, up and in. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
How is a warning a discipline?  The only team it hurt in that instance was the Red Sox.  You really think David Price will be worried about being watched more closely in the future?  He just got away with it completely clean, and made claims that he felt justified in doing so.

 
Like I said, that's MLB logic, not mine. They basically told him to cut that shit out, or he's gone. Does it give him a break? Sure, but the fact Price is an unlikable sort doesn't take away from the point that the umpires established the parameters for the game, and in their minds he followed them.

 

[joe dokes]

And just in time:
 
http://deadspin.com/a-major-league-pitchers-guide-to-baseballs-bullshit-unw-1585433770
 
A Major League Pitcher's Guide To Baseball's Bullshit Unwritten Rules

 

[Jaylach]

 
Like I said, that's MLB logic, not mine. They basically told him to cut that shit out, or he's gone. Does it give him a break? Sure, but the fact price is an unlikable sort doesn't take away from the point that the umpires established the parameters for the game, and he followed them.

 
Well, not really because he hit a second batter with a fast ball up and in.

 

[theapportioner]

We could start a White House petition.

 

[tims4wins]

 
Again, the umpiring crew thought it was intentional on Price's part ... but not to the level of ejection

 
How can a beanball be intentional but not warrant ejection? That is what I am struggling with. I think it is the "superstar clause". If it was a scrub that hit Ortiz, he may have been ejected.

 

[vintage'67]

I think this is a correct interpretation of the what MLB's reasoning was.  We've seen this before. I think it also shows the flaw in MLB's logic.  If Price was intentional, you either need to let the teams settle it (up to a point) or throw Price out of the game and issue the warning.  Only issuing the warning starts the unfairness Farrell called "taking the ball out of our hands."  I get that MLB wants to crack down on players being thrown at, but they need to really think through the scenarios.  It's not inconceivable or unpredictable that the Sox are more pissed after Workman's suspension (in an adding insult to injury way) than they were before.  That does not help settle things down. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
Well, not really because he hit a second batter with a fast ball up and in.

 
That was deemed unintentional by the people setting the parameters. You can argue the point, but at the time of the warnings it becomes about intent

 

[Bigpupp]

Dempster hit Arod last year, wasn't ejected but was suspended later. So it has happened.

 

[Bone Chips]

Wow - Ortiz just challenged Price's manhood in the clubhouse interview. Said they settled it as men on the phone, then Price did his "punk ass shit". Good stuff.

 

[joe dokes]

We could start a White House petition.

 
We could boycott the games ..... like Rays fans do.
 
 
 
 
 
 
I'm here all week.  Enjoy the veal.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
How can a beanball be intentional but not warrant ejection? That is what I am struggling with. I think it is the "superstar clause". If it was a scrub that hit Ortiz, he may have been ejected.

 
That's in the rules spelled out in the gamethread that night. A hit batter deemed intentional can merit either warning or ejection, umpires discretion

 

[Jaylach]

 
That was deemed unintentional by the people setting the parameters. You can argue the point, but at the time of the warnings it becomes about intent

 
You're right, but once a warning is issued it typically means no more fastballs up and in. Price didn't "listen" and hit another person because of it.

 

[smastroyin]

I think the umpires, if they wanted control of the game, should have thrown Price out after the Carp HBP.  Intent doesn't matter, and typically hasn't mattered, after warnings have been issued.  So, they contradicted themselves.  They tried to take control by immediately warning the initial HBP instead of waiting for a retaliatory one, which is typical.  Then, they let the Carp HBP go and threw out a second coach in the process.  The umpires I feel should also be disciplined because their actions led directly to Workman feeling like he had to do something.  Obviously it is all bullshit. 
 
I am kind of with E5 here in that it would be hard for MLB to come down on Price now.  It would essentially be showing up the umpires for the way they handled the game.  But it seems pretty clear that the umpires handled the game incorrectly.
 
I kind of feel like the Rays are using this feud with the Red Sox to validate their own existence and drum up support.  I suppose we should take it as flattery that they have chosen the Red Sox instead of the Yankees as being the team that they want to hate.  It doesn't change the fact that I really hate them and the two things keeping me happy about this season are Xander's emergence and the fact that the Rays suck too.

 

[joe dokes]

 
That's in the rules spelled out in the gamethread that night. A hit batter deemed intentional can merit either warning or ejection, umpires discretion

 
 
This has been a long-term issue for MLB -- the warning after the first HBP is somewhat unfair to the team that got hit.   I think a more experienced plate ump might have waited until the Sox get a shot at some Rays's ass and *then* give the warning.

 

[bankshot1]

I think this is a correct interpretation of the what MLB's reasoning was.  We've seen this before. I think it also shows the flaw in MLB's logic.  If Price was intentional, you either need to let the teams settle it (up to a point) or throw Price out of the game and issue the warning.  Only issuing the warning starts the unfairness Farrell called "taking the ball out of our hands."  I get that MLB wants to crack down on players being thrown at, but they need to really think through the scenarios.  It's not inconceivable or unpredictable that the Sox are more pissed after Workman's suspension (in an adding insult to injury way) than they were before.  That does not help settle things down. 

This.
 
But I would add that once Price hit Carp, then any "benefit of doubt" is gone and Price and Maddon should have been ejected. The umpires were as inept in handling a known volatile situation as I've ever seen.

 

[NWsoxophile]

 
That's in the rules spelled out in the gamethread that night. A hit batter deemed intentional can merit either warning or ejection, umpires discretion

Does the league have the ability to reconsider the question of intent before issuing suspensions, or are they obligated to follow the interpretation of the umpires? 

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Can a hitter be suspended for putting on too much of a display after hitting a home run?
 
Next time Ortiz takes Price deep, I hope he does his best Manny/Horgan impression, turns, spits towards the mound as he grabs his junk. As he marches around the bases like a tin soldier, he bends and SLAPS each base. Down the third base line, he does the Gomes helmet punt. When he approaches home, he slows to a near stop, gets down on one knee on the plate, looks skyward and raises a fist in the air. Hold the position for at least 10 seconds.
 
Then, as he's walking back to the dugout, he turns to Price, gives him his biggest "CHEESE!" smile with a double thumbs up.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
You're right, but once a warning is issued it typically means no more fastballs up and in. Price didn't "listen" and hit another person because of it.

 
We're in agreement. If for no other reason than to try to alleviate the anger, he should have been tossed after the Carp HBP ... but that's on the umpires, not MLB. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

Does the league have the ability to reconsider the question of intent before issuing suspensions, or are they obligated to follow the interpretation of the umpires? 

 
I don't know, but it's a great question. But from what we've heard thus far, it doesn't seem as though the Rays wilkl be under any such scrutiny

 

[deconstruction]

This has been a long-term issue for MLB -- the warning after the first HBP is somewhat unfair to the team that got hit.   I think a more experienced plate ump might have waited until the Sox get a shot at some Rays's ass and *then* give the warning.

 
But if the ump deems it intentional, isn't he compelled to immediately eject or issue a warning? Wouldn't him waiting violate the rules? I'm genuinely asking.    
 
I think the mistake is assuming Workman's pitch was intentional.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

This has been a long-term issue for MLB -- the warning after the first HBP is somewhat unfair to the team that got hit.   I think a more experienced plate ump might have waited until the Sox get a shot at some Rays's ass and *then* give the warning.

 
Agreed. The combination of the "bad blood" warning going into the series and an inexperienced umpire behind the plate is what got us into this mess.

 

[Jaylach]

 
But if the ump deems it intentional, isn't he compelled to immediately eject or issue a warning? Wouldn't him waiting violate the rules? I'm genuinely asking.    
 
I think the mistake is assuming Workman's pitch was intentional.

 
I think more "seasoned" umps handle within the "unwritten rules" of the game. If a batter gets hit on purpose, a seasoned ump will typically let the other team retaliate before issuing a warning. 
 
I think an ump waiting will violate the written rules, but form my vantage point it feels like the unwritten rules (in this situation) are what's more important.

 

[Bosoxen]

 
I don't know, but it's a great question. But from what we've heard thus far, it doesn't seem as though the Rays wilkl be under any such scrutiny

 
Isn't there a precedent here? I recall an incident where Bobby Jenks threw behind Ian Kinsler in a game between the White Sox and Rangers. Jenks was not ejected (nor warned, IIRC) but was fined after the fact when he admitted in an interview to having done it on purpose. This would indicate that MLB is not opposed to going against the umpires' in-game ruling.
 
Granted, this was under Bob Watson's watchful eye but the fact that Price has escaped any and all punishment from MLB is a load of horse manure. Hell, I'd even settle for a strongly-worded letter at this point.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

 
Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo  3s
Ortiz said MLB wants to speak to him about incident with Price next couple of days.
 

 
 

 
I have a feeling Ortiz gets a fine for all his comments.

After the rest of what happened in that game?  I expect 6 games suspension for Papi
 
 
 

I just hope Alex Wilson is nice and warmed up and we're up big.  I hope he hits that fucking SS 

 
Long throw from Pawtucket
 

 
Workman misses 1 game in which he would have played

 
Actually, he gets his start pushed back 2 days.

 

[JimD]

I kind of feel like the Rays are using this feud with the Red Sox to validate their own existence and drum up support.  I suppose we should take it as flattery that they have chosen the Red Sox instead of the Yankees as being the team that they want to hate.  It doesn't change the fact that I really hate them and the two things keeping me happy about this season are Xander's emergence and the fact that the Rays suck too.

 
I was thinking the same thing this afternoon.  The entire Rays organization is acting like the guy who gets locked up and immediately picks out the meanest prisoner in the joint to go crazy on and try to establish how 'bad' he is. 

 

[Jaylach]

Re-watching the Carp HBP, I didn't realize how close to his head this really was...
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/v33295993/tbbos-benches-clear-after-carp-is-hit-by-pitch/?c_id=mlb
 
Not too far from the behind-the-back Longoria got...

 

[HurstSoGood]

I thought it was more up too. Looks like our went by the letters

 
The pitch was too high. If it was a few inches to the left, it has a good chance of catching a piece Longoria's shoulder on the way up through his face. I don't like the pitch location at all. I don't like headhunting, especially when the batter is not the guy causing all the problems. 
 
Workman got what he deserved. Price has yet to. The umps sucked. In cases like these, the best way is to get over is to win the game. The second best way is to charge the mound and beat the shit out of the guy that intentionally threw at you…and win the game. A distant third is waiting for the pitcher (Price) after the game in the parking lot and throwing fists.   

 

[OnWisc]

At this point, I hope they fine Papi, too.  If MLB's goal through these actions is to exacerbate the situation, they're doing a great job.
 
 
 
(Not so much the suspension for Workman, but the lack of action on anybody else.)

 

[soxhop411]

Can a hitter be suspended for putting on too much of a display after hitting a home run?
 
Next time Ortiz takes Price deep, I hope he does his best Manny/Horgan impression, turns, spits towards the mound as he grabs his junk. As he marches around the bases like a tin soldier, he bends and SLAPS each base. Down the third base line, he does the Gomes helmet punt. When he approaches home, he slows to a near stop, gets down on one knee on the plate, looks skyward and raises a fist in the air. Hold the position for at least 10 seconds.
 
Then, as he's walking back to the dugout, he turns to Price, gives him his biggest "CHEESE!" smile with a double thumbs up.

Would not be shocked if he pimps his HR off Price even more then the one in the playoffs...

 

[Harry Hooper]

This.
 
But I would add that once Price hit Carp, then any "benefit of doubt" is gone and Price and Maddon should have been ejected. The umpires were as inept in handling a known volatile situation as I've ever seen.

 
Yes, if Workman had thrown the same sort of pitch that hit Carp, does anyone really believe he would not have been ejected? OK, then, Price deserved ZERO benefit of the doubt when Carp got hit.

 

[steeplechase3k]

Re-watching the Carp HBP, I didn't realize how close to his head this really was...
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/v33295993/tbbos-benches-clear-after-carp-is-hit-by-pitch/?c_id=mlb
 
Not too far from the behind-the-back Longoria got...

Can anyone read the lips of the umpire here?

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
We're in agreement. If for no other reason than to try to alleviate the anger, he should have been tossed after the Carp HBP ... but that's on the umpires, not MLB. 

 
It's been mentioned, but it's on both. MLB has meted out supplmental discipline in the past on a number of occassions where pitchers were not ejected. If you're not going to do it in this situation, when both the pitcher and manager are all but openly screaming "we drilled him on purpose," then why ever do it? Make the rule black and white so that a pitcher can't be suspended if he's not ejected. I would have to assume there's a reason why a firm rule like that isn't in place, and I can't really imagine a much more glaring scenario for that league discretion than this. The Red Sox players were put at risk with no recourse of defending themselves, and the Red Sox ability to compete and win was put at risk with absolutely no recourse offered by the umpires of the league.

 

[Jaylach]

Can anyone read the lips of the umpire here?

 
I can't, I tried. Don't have the skills apparently.
 
I did notice Lovullo looks a lot like Pettitte in that video, though.

 

[Marbleheader]

MLB is guaranteeing that this gets dragged into the next series between these teams, multiple batters will get hit, and the benches will clear.

 

[joe dokes]

 
I think more "seasoned" umps handle within the "unwritten rules" of the game. If a batter gets hit on purpose, a seasoned ump will typically let the other team retaliate before issuing a warning. 
 
I think an ump waiting will violate the written rules, but form my vantage point it feels like the unwritten rules (in this situation) are what's more important.

 
Especially since Price's pitch was in Papi's ass (well within the unwrittens).  The further problem with this approach crops up when/if Workman can't execute. Then you have the Daubach farce of several attempts.

 

[Average Reds]

MLB is guaranteeing that this gets dragged into the next series between these teams, multiple batters will get hit, and the benches will clear.

 
I don't think that there is any disagreement that MLB is handling this about as poorly as they could.