Woj: Porzingis May Be Available
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
Having already made my case that Booker is overrated in terms of W/Ls, he's still an extremely marketable 20 year old who's going to score boatloads in the league, going into year 3 on his rookie contract. He's worth far, far more than Bradley, Smart or Crowder to a rebuilding team.
If Phil would take #4 and Booker, and 3>4, then we need to add something slightly LESS than Booker's value to meet Phils desired value.
So what is slightly less than Booker? Bradley or Crowder plus a late first? It's not the BKN 18 - that has to be worth more than Booker. I think the LAL/SAC is also worth more, but maybe others disagree. But that's the ballpark we should be playing in here.
So what is slightly less than Booker? Bradley or Crowder plus a late first? It's not the BKN 18 - that has to be worth more than Booker. I think the LAL/SAC is also worth more, but maybe others disagree. But that's the ballpark we should be playing in here.
IT, Bradley, Hayward, Porzingis, Horford.
I totally love that starting five. Porzingis was born to play Stevens-ball, and brings length and rim protection you guys have been lacking.
Replace Bradley next season with Brown, Smart or some other hotshot young'un, depending on who's left after the KP trade. The 2 slot should be pretty easy to fill given all the assets you have. Two-way bigs like KP are much, much harder to find.
Do it, Danny!
I totally love that starting five. Porzingis was born to play Stevens-ball, and brings length and rim protection you guys have been lacking.
Replace Bradley next season with Brown, Smart or some other hotshot young'un, depending on who's left after the KP trade. The 2 slot should be pretty easy to fill given all the assets you have. Two-way bigs like KP are much, much harder to find.
Do it, Danny!
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Danny isn't going to trade his assets no matter how good a fit Porzingis or anyone else is. Today is going to be a dud.
You may be right in that today may be a dud for Celtics trades, but the first sentence of your post makes absolutely zero sense.
Tell us more about your conversation with Danny.
I think Danny would absolutely trade some assets for KP, but he won't overpay(whatever that is in his mind)
Plus today isn't a dud if they make their pick and whoever they draft turns out to be a very good player
My suggestion:
#3, Bradley, Crowder, and one of the unlikely-to-be future lottery picks for Porzingis and #8.
Take BPA at 8.
Then sign Hayward.
IT4
Hayward
Horford
Zinger
with a competition for the second guard spot. Could be Smart, could be #8, could be Jaylen.
#3, Bradley, Crowder, and one of the unlikely-to-be future lottery picks for Porzingis and #8.
Take BPA at 8.
Then sign Hayward.
IT4
Hayward
Horford
Zinger
with a competition for the second guard spot. Could be Smart, could be #8, could be Jaylen.
Exactly. We're a 1 seed that's picking third overall. We're going to be adding a very good young player that's cost controlled for a long time. Danny has already won.
The Warriors developed their core from the draft, I don't see why we can't do the same while adding complementary pieces like Horford as they become available. Adding one player, unless that player is LeBron, isn't going to push us over the top. Adding 4-5 stars to throw at the GSW machine will do that.
I think that's borderline to get Porzingis alone, no way that gets the #8 too.
And what if one of your picks is not a star like Curry, Thompson, or Green? Today will be like any other day - Danny will make a move if it makes sense or he will otherwise just take Tatum/Jackson/Isaac on a rookie deal and keep waiting.
If Phil has a deal on the table we would have to beat it.....not offering a LESSER player than Booker in return for the right to see Porzingis 5-6x per year. It would take the #3 and Jaylen to even get into that conversation.
True, although everything is a gamble to some extent. If you cash in everything (or a lot) for a guy like KP or AD and they develop foot problems in six months, then you're kinda fucked too. I think high quality quantity gives us better odds, but I can see the value with proven talent.
Agreed.
Again, I know I'm in the minority, but I'm not trading that much value for Kelly Olynk with good defense and injury concerns.
If DA trades #3, a top 5 pick next year plus Jaylen Brown for KP, I will be up in a clock tower by midnight.
Clocktower Doc Brown because the Future just got better or Clocktower Charles Whitman because not?
I feel pretty strongly that unless he's getting a real sweetheart deal on one of these guys (like a real lowball Paul George deal) that he's holding out for Anthony Davis, even if it takes a couple years. He certainly planned ahead for KG. Only difference being that in this scenario the team will be good along the way.
All these rumors along the way are akin to our flirtations with Iverson.
All these rumors along the way are akin to our flirtations with Iverson.
David Aldridge said a few minutes ago that the Knicks are asking for a big package for KP because they feel KP would be worth the #1 pick this year. Not sure how logical that take is, but it's out there.
I kinda think they'll end up settling for a top 4 pick and a starter. Crowder, the #3... maybe a couple Boston first round picks tossed in?
To me, both Booker and Porzingis are both in the category of "foundational young studs who should not be touchable under any circumstances unless your GM is a fool."
Both elite shooters ideal for today's space-and-pace game, both with great size for their skillsets, both high character guys dedicated to their craft, both cost-controlled for 3-4-5 more years, both already amazingly productive in the NBA despite their young ages. I'd easily take either of those guys over two high first-rounders.
I've always tried to cheer up my Knicks-fan friend by telling him the Knicks are basically where the Warriors were in 2011-2012 — coming of decades of futility, league laughing-stock, with basically nothing to be excited about other than one young draft-hit with rare, superstar potential but some mild injury concerns. Forget about everything else, build around your one truly rare talent for the next 2-3 years, and you guys are good, I kept telling him.
Phil Jackson now seems poised to dump 2011-12 Steph Curry, keep Monta Ellis, Jarrett Jack and David Lee, and surround them with bunch of Al Farouq Aminus and Otto Porters.
Carpe diem, Celtics!
Both elite shooters ideal for today's space-and-pace game, both with great size for their skillsets, both high character guys dedicated to their craft, both cost-controlled for 3-4-5 more years, both already amazingly productive in the NBA despite their young ages. I'd easily take either of those guys over two high first-rounders.
I've always tried to cheer up my Knicks-fan friend by telling him the Knicks are basically where the Warriors were in 2011-2012 — coming of decades of futility, league laughing-stock, with basically nothing to be excited about other than one young draft-hit with rare, superstar potential but some mild injury concerns. Forget about everything else, build around your one truly rare talent for the next 2-3 years, and you guys are good, I kept telling him.
Phil Jackson now seems poised to dump 2011-12 Steph Curry, keep Monta Ellis, Jarrett Jack and David Lee, and surround them with bunch of Al Farouq Aminus and Otto Porters.
Carpe diem, Celtics!
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I think Phil is probably right that KP is worth the #1 pick this year, and if the Celtics still had it I'd trade it for him. But they don't, so I tend to think its "equivalent"--what Danny just traded it for--should be very close to getting it done on a fair world. So that's #3 and the rights to LL/SAC's pick, plus someone like Crowder to sweeten the deal.
Apologies if this was already pointed out upthread, but an "overpay" that includes someone like Crowder actually helps the Celts out anyway. With the lower salary cap, they'd need to dump a Crowder-esque salary regardless to clear enough space for an FA like Hayward, so you might as well use him as a sweetener to help get KP. When thinking through Porzingis trades, there's a case to be made that you actively WANT to include Crowder (or whomever).
Apologies if this was already pointed out upthread, but an "overpay" that includes someone like Crowder actually helps the Celts out anyway. With the lower salary cap, they'd need to dump a Crowder-esque salary regardless to clear enough space for an FA like Hayward, so you might as well use him as a sweetener to help get KP. When thinking through Porzingis trades, there's a case to be made that you actively WANT to include Crowder (or whomever).
This makes sense, I'd rather include Bradley though (if the signing is Hayward). Clears more salary, and Crowder is more versatile. Of course, the Knicks might prefer Crowder for the same reasons.
This assumes that Ainge made a good deal. Or at least that Aigne made a deal that Jackson thinks is good.
With Paul George rumored to be going to LA, the Lakers pick is in too much flux to be worth a ton right now. George and Lopez get them out of the high lottery.
And I suspect Phil isn't particularly interested in a return for Porzingis that's still two seasons away. A lot can happen and Sacramento's adding two lottery picks in a stacked draft. It's not at all outside the realm of possibility that Sacramento could add Jackson at 5 and Dennis Smith at 10, and either one of those guys has at least an outside shot at being the best guy in the draft. I mean, let's say that Sacramento picks ends up being #7 overall. That's a pretty terrible return for Porzingis.
It's probably been mentioned, but I think #3+2018 LAL/SAC+2018 BOS 1st+Crowder feels like a pretty good offer to me. Three first rounders, two of which are likely high lottery, plus a starter on a bargain contract. I guess a problem is that anthony/crowder/jackson probably have a hard time being on the court together in the near term if they can't move carmelo, but value wise it feels right to me. From the C's point of view, they keep the nets pick, and it puts them 33.3m under cap or so, leaving room to make a run at hayward, after which they'd have ~5m to add a 12th man. That would leave them looking at:
IT/Smart
AB/Rozier
Hayward/Brown
Porzingis/Yabu
Horford/Zizic
with DJackson + 12th guy. I'm not clever enough to figure out if there's a way to time all of this so that last spot could be Olynyk.
IT/Smart
AB/Rozier
Hayward/Brown
Porzingis/Yabu
Horford/Zizic
with DJackson + 12th guy. I'm not clever enough to figure out if there's a way to time all of this so that last spot could be Olynyk.
To me, the only way making this trade makes sense from Phil's perspective, is if it gets him out of the Carmelo contract (and experience). I can't see why he would trade a 21-year old stud on an awesome contract, without forcing that team to take his albatross.
Maybe it's a misdirection play, but Phil seemed to be genuinely butthurt by Kristaps skipping the exit interview. I don't think it strains the imagination to see Phil making a dumb move based on the combination of a bruised ego, a hopeless situation even with Porzingis and the need to make some sort of statement/splash.
Isn't the bigger obstacle for this Carmelo himself, not finding a team willing to take him?
Carmelo hasn't agreed to waive his NTC so not much Phil can do about that if he wants to trade KP before the draft.
Everybody's talking about Phil's ego. What about Dolan's desire to sell tickets? He views the Knicks as a way to fill up the Garden and little else. He's going to trade the most popular Knicks player in forever and put that at risk?
I don't buy it even a little bit. It's one thing for Phil to make a big show of listening to offers and talking about how he has concerns about KP's buy in in New York, it's a whole other thing for a deal to reach Dolan's desk and get signed off on. The only way it happens, in my mind, is if they get blown away and there is a name player in there that sells tickets.
In other words, you need to balance Phil's insanity with Dolan's insanity, and Dolan is not a "Crowder offers solid contract value" type of guy.
J. Sherrod Blakely, on the Sports hub this morning, was suggesting that to get porzingis, he would trade the following:
1. This year's Philly pick (#3)
2. The 2018 Brooklyn pick (confidently 1, 2, 3 or 4)
3. Jaylen Brown (last year's #3)
4. Crowder.
Rich and Wallach agreed they would do that deal, understanding it was an overpay. So effectively, that's three top 5 draft picks and Jae Crowder for Porzingis. I almost drove off the road and thanked my lucky stars that these guys have nothing to do with Celtics management.
1. This year's Philly pick (#3)
2. The 2018 Brooklyn pick (confidently 1, 2, 3 or 4)
3. Jaylen Brown (last year's #3)
4. Crowder.
Rich and Wallach agreed they would do that deal, understanding it was an overpay. So effectively, that's three top 5 draft picks and Jae Crowder for Porzingis. I almost drove off the road and thanked my lucky stars that these guys have nothing to do with Celtics management.
Good point. Does that make LA a better potential fit? Not sure if they'd take Melo but I would guess he'd agree to go there.
People are f'ing crazy. That is an overpay of epic proportions.
Celts were a good team last year.
Adding Tatum and maybe Hayward/Griffin as a FA, will make them a better team, while keeping a huge f'ing pile of assets for future use.
KP ain't worth what is in essence 3 top 3 picks and a pretty good player in Crowder.
Phils is in a bind, there is no reason to help him out.
I think this is more so a psychological ploy by Jackson. He dangles him publicly, talks about how disappointed he is, but never has any realistic intention to trade him. He's playing KP, and trying to be the zen master. Even Celtics offered that ridiculously awful package, I don't see him taking it. It's all a mirage.
Good God...As I mentioned earlier in this thread, any trade that includes both #3 & Brown is ludicrous. Any deal for KP would start with one of those assets as its foundation, with filler to follow.
TBH, I'm not even sure DA would include Brown in any deal for Porzingis. Seems like Stevens and the front office really like him.
Worth pointing out that GS took Harrison Barnes 28 slots ahead of Draymond and Festus Ezeli 5 spots ahead of Draymond.
Finding an All NBA player in the second round is close to impossible, but Danny will (in all likelihood) have 4 top 5 lottery picks in 4 years (starting with Jaylen last year). That is why he has been hesitant to GFIN, b/c the team is already quite good (if not on the Cavs/Warriors level), but those picks should form the core of the 2020+ Celtics...
Something that works in the espn trade machine:
Cs get KP and PG
Knicks get 3, IT, Crowder and Zeller
Pacers get Deandre Jordan and 8
Clippers get Carmelo
Who says no to that? Maybe only Carmelo depending on what CP3 and Blake end up doing?
If this trade could happen after FA then Cs could attempt to add Hayward as well (likely a dream). Leaves them with:
AB/Smart/Rozier
Hayward/Jaylen
PG/Jaylen
KP/Yabu
Horford/Zizic
And leaves them with 2 potential lottery picks in 2018.
Cs get KP and PG
Knicks get 3, IT, Crowder and Zeller
Pacers get Deandre Jordan and 8
Clippers get Carmelo
Who says no to that? Maybe only Carmelo depending on what CP3 and Blake end up doing?
If this trade could happen after FA then Cs could attempt to add Hayward as well (likely a dream). Leaves them with:
AB/Smart/Rozier
Hayward/Jaylen
PG/Jaylen
KP/Yabu
Horford/Zizic
And leaves them with 2 potential lottery picks in 2018.
Jaylen Brown is off-limits for Porzingis?
Look, Ainge and Stevens are clearly enamored with swing men who can switch on basically anybody on defense. It's hugely valuable in the pace and space NBA -- no question about that. But Jaylen Brown has a long ways to go to become a league average player. He's shown promise, has the right work ethic, and seems like a solid person. I like him plenty as a piece. But he and Porzingis are not in the same tier in terms of value, either on the floor or in a trade.
Edit: sorry, this was in response to the person who posted that they didn't think Ainge would include Brown for Porzingis.
Look, Ainge and Stevens are clearly enamored with swing men who can switch on basically anybody on defense. It's hugely valuable in the pace and space NBA -- no question about that. But Jaylen Brown has a long ways to go to become a league average player. He's shown promise, has the right work ethic, and seems like a solid person. I like him plenty as a piece. But he and Porzingis are not in the same tier in terms of value, either on the floor or in a trade.
Edit: sorry, this was in response to the person who posted that they didn't think Ainge would include Brown for Porzingis.
I would do #3 and Brown in a heartbeat. I'd throw in the LAL/SAC/PHI pick and one of the guards (Smart/Bradley/Rozier).
Understandably so, dude has said all the right things re: defense and things to improve on. He sounds like a ten year vet instead of a 20 year old kid. Plus those videos he's been dropping show that he has a crazy work ethic. I think I've read here that year one -> year two growth is usually one of the biggest leaps, so I'm pretty excited to see how he looks next year.
For people saying this is all a mirage, are you assuming the rumored deal offered by Phil to PHX of KP for the #4 and Booker didn't really happen? Because if Jackson actually made that offer, then he in fact had every intention of dealing KP, at least for that price.
If that report is not accurate, then it undercuts much of the trade speculation going on. But if it is accurate, then a trade IS possible, and for a price far less than #3/Brkn 18/Brown/Crowder.
If that report is not accurate, then it undercuts much of the trade speculation going on. But if it is accurate, then a trade IS possible, and for a price far less than #3/Brkn 18/Brown/Crowder.
I have heard two basketball podcast folks say that Porzingis would be # 2 pick in this years draft, so saying he is worth the # 1 is certainly not an absolute. He is also only two years away from being a max player. And also is not the best fit next to Horford.
I am not sure I would do Jaylen and # 3, but would most likely relent.
I am not sure I would do Jaylen and # 3, but would most likely relent.
I take everything reported this week with a huge grain of salt. Teams leak misinformation and details get skewed. I don't know if the conversation took place or not, but I do know that that particular rumor didn't come from any of the few very reliable sources. I'm not even sure where that one came from, truthfully. Anybody know the original source? Or was it ever backed up by a Lowe or Woj type?
Has that Phoenix report been corroborated by any of the major media guys? Best I can tell is that it came from a local sports radio guy from Phoenix.
You aren't not finding another KP in this draft, which means if Phil is trading him he needs another stud young player to mold and a couple more stabs at real talent in the draft. That means something like Brown, #3 and one more pick. If you aren't willing to do that you aren't getting Porzingis. He's a young, 7'3" rim-protector that can shoot 3s. I hate the term unicorn, but he's a goddamn unicorn. You aren't getting him unless you give up an absolutely insane package and that's only if Phil really wants to move him, which I still don't buy.
This is nuts. Maybe if we are pretending he's in a time machine and we've never seen him play in the NBA. He is absolutely the first pick this year. And the second pick. And the third pick.
What podcast? I've heard Chad Ford and others say he's on a completely different tier than anyone in this year's draft.