Will Middlebrooks: Now or never

Status
Not open for further replies.

curly2

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 8, 2003
4,919
This 54-game audition is pretty much Middlebrooks' last shot to prove why he should be third baseman for the Red Sox, right? If he doesn't do well over these two months, there's no way the Sox can go into 2015 counting on a guy who really hasn't shown anything since 2012.
 
As the trade deadline in general -- and the Sox moves in particular -- showed, right-handed power is critically important. This is a tremendous opportunity for Middlebrooks, who at 26 next month is no longer a kid, to show why he's part of the solution for 2015.
 
It's there is you want it, Will. Lay off those sliders in the left-handed batters box. Swing at strikes and drive the ball, or you'll probably have a new home next year, with the Sox getting very little for him.
 

Yazdog8

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,349
Redwood City, CA
I think Farrell pretty much alluded to that in his remarks to the press today.
 
Farrell on Middlebrooks: 'The opportunity is there in front of him right now.'
 
https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/495304317545750528
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,409
Philadelphia
I've basically given up hope but one last shot seems appropriate.
 
Middlebrooks hit incredibly from his callup on 5/2/2012 to 6/25/2012.  In the 2+ years since then, he's had one good month (last year from early August to early September).  Injuries have certainly played a part in his struggles but he's never shown a capacity, once major league pitchers had adapted to him, to adapt back.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Farrell's quote is somewhat at odds with Scott Lauber's tweet indicating that the plan is for Holt to play "CF against lefties and SS or 3B against righties.". Doesn't seem like Middlebrooks is getting in everyday.
 

EricFeczko

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 26, 2014
4,851
I wouldn't even go that far.
If Middlebrooks shows that he is a cost-controlled above average 3B, you can package him as part of a trade, and have Holt (or Cecchini/Betts) play primarily at third. Or try to sign Hanley.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,024
Mansfield MA
I'm not sure why this is the final chance for Middlebrooks. He has an option left, as far as I can tell.
 
Middlebrooks MLB 2013-14: 456 PA, .222/.277/.408, 86 OPS+, 0.6 oWAR
Bradley MLB 2013-14: 455 PA, .216/.293/.314, 70 OPS+, 0.2 oWAR
 
Obviously there are some massive points in Bradley's favor: his brilliant glove and his age (1.5 years younger than WMB), for two. But Middlebrooks has a significant point in his favor: an actual period of major league success in 2012. I'm not saying I'd take WMB's future over JBJ's, but I'm not sure why the SoSH consensus seems to be that Bradley will improve but Middlebrooks won't.
 
 
EricFeczko said:
I wouldn't even go that far.
If Middlebrooks shows that he is a cost-controlled above average 3B, you can package him as part of a trade, and have Holt (or Cecchini/Betts) play primarily at third. Or try to sign Hanley.
If WMB can be a cost-controlled above-average 3B, wouldn't we want him doing that for the Red Sox? Provided Bogaerts can stick at SS defensively, of course.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,507
Not here
EricFeczko said:
I wouldn't even go that far.
If Middlebrooks shows that he is a cost-controlled above average 3B, you can package him as part of a trade, and have Holt (or Cecchini/Betts) play primarily at third. Or try to sign Hanley.
 
Or just play Middlebrooks.
 

MakMan44

stole corsi's dream
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2009
19,363
I wrote something up, but I think it boils down to the fact that Xander might be forced off SS to 3rd as soon as next season. I'd love for him to succeed for the Red Sox but it seems like he's running out of time to do so. 
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,462
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
MakMan44 said:
I wrote something up, but I think it boils down to the fact that Xander might be forced off SS to 3rd as soon as next season. I'd love for him to succeed for the Red Sox but it seems like he's running out of time to do so. 
I wouldn't be anointing St. Deven just yet .. considering his sub .700 OPS in AAA
 

derekson

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2010
6,252
Did Middlebrooks ever figure out a solution for glasses/contacts to fix his vision? Because the uncorrected vision numbers reported for him seemed completely insufficient for an MLB hitter (20/25 in his right eye and 20/30 in his left). In a world where most MLB hitters are correcting their vision to something like 20/15 it's inexcusable to not get lasik, wear glasses, or wear contacts with vision that relatively poor. If the Red Sox are letting him get these ABs without figuring out how to address his vision issues then they are just being stupid.
 
The guy will never learn how to hit if he can't see the ball.
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
derekson said:
Did Middlebrooks ever figure out a solution for glasses/contacts to fix his vision? Because the uncorrected vision numbers reported for him seemed completely insufficient for an MLB hitter (20/25 in his right eye and 20/30 in his left). In a world where most MLB hitters are correcting their vision to something like 20/15 it's inexcusable to not get lasik, wear glasses, or wear contacts with vision that relatively poor. If the Red Sox are letting him get these ABs without figuring out how to address his vision issues then they are just being stupid.
 
The guy will never learn how to hit if he can't see the ball.
You thought if this and you think Will would not?
 

MakMan44

stole corsi's dream
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2009
19,363
seantoo said:
You thought if this and you think Will would not?
He spent forever just fighting the issue, instead of correcting it. I think asking if he decided on a solution is a fair question.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,614
From the old Middlebrooks thread:
 
While down in Pawtucket, Middlebrooks will try out a pair of prescription sports glasses to compensate for his astigmatism and slight nearsightedness. Middlebrooks tried using contact lenses during spring training, but found them tiresome and unpractical to use on the baseball field.
“They were tough for me to hit in,” Middlebrooks said. “They dry out a lot, the dirt and everything. It’s hard to play baseball in contacts. If you get dirt in them, you can’t just wipe it out. You have to get in there with the eye drops and you need someone else to help you. I’m going to try them out. It’s something different and I’ve tried them a couple of times in BP and it’s definitely weird, but it’s going to be a process for me.”
Middlebrooks asked teammates Stephen Drew and Jonathan Herrera about their experiences with the glasses on the field. Drew, who began using them this season, and Herrera, who predominantly wears the glasses during warmups and batting practice, told Middlebrooks that he should wear them as much as possible to get used to the difference in depth perception.
“It’s more at night time for me is when I need [glasses] the most,” Middlebrooks said. “Day games, I see the ball fine, but at night, it can get a little blurred. I can get a halo around the ball so it’s something I’m trying to fix.”
 
 
WEEI
 
 
Also, this BMac article on vision correction for baseball players.
 
 
 
Too bad Will is not in the lineup for the day game today. Maybe he should have a chat with this guy.
 

shepard50

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 18, 2006
8,264
Sydney, Australia
I'd like to see Middlebrooks get a stretch of hitting when he is healthy. I think the back issues and the broken finger (this year), and the wrist issues (the season before) definitely affeced his hitting and ability to get into a consistent swing. It's easy to say "pressure is on Will, stop sucking' as though that would help. Apparently the kid has a great work ethic, so this isn't about effort. He has shown stretches of good discipline at the plate. I guess I am not understanding all the impatience. We have a lot of young players who are going to need time (Bradley, Betts, and anyone else who gets a shot), why is everyone so hard on Middlebrooks?
 

Julius.R

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2010
212
I think ESPN is one of the only sites with Day/Night splits.
 
2014:
 
Day: .222/.323/.444/.767 with 8 SOs and 2 BBs (27 ABs)
Night: .191/.296/.277/.573 with 17 SOs and 6 BBs (47 ABs)
 
Career in Majors:
 
Day: .263/.328/.500/.828 with 49 SOs and 16 BBs (156 ABs)
Night: .251/.282/.449/.731  with 119 SOs and 17 BBs (459 ABs)
 
A quick search didn't turn up any information about Day/Night splits in the minors.
 

tomdeplonty

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 23, 2013
585
There are day/night splits on baseball-reference.com too. Doesn't look like minor league stats are available on the splits page.
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2002
13,024
Seattle, WA
I've been on Baseball Prospectus looking at young 3B with power. The trouble is you have to see these guys to figure out if they can field or hit.

If I think WMB is not the solution at 3B, and I want a great defensive player with potential power, what are the options?

And don't say "Slappy".

Trouble is, I don't think Bogaerts is the long term solution at SS, and will be the 3B in a couple of years, latest. So I guess it's stupid to acquire young 3B talent?

What's the antidote to WMB?
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,507
Not here
geoduck no quahog said:
I've been on Baseball Prospectus looking at young 3B with power. The trouble is you have to see these guys to figure out if they can field or hit.

If I think WMB is not the solution at 3B, and I want a great defensive player with potential power, what are the options?

And don't say "Slappy".

Trouble is, I don't think Bogaerts is the long term solution at SS, and will be the 3B in a couple of years, latest. So I guess it's stupid to acquire young 3B talent?

What's the antidote to WMB?
 
 
If Middlebrooks doesn't work out, it's probably Bogaerts for at least a couple years. Nobody is giving up a good young third baseman with power.
 

Pilgrim

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2006
2,407
Jamaica Plain
With Joey Gallo on the way, I wonder if the Rangers would deal Beltre.

Between his short contract and defensive brilliance, he would be perfect for giving Bogaerts a chance at short.
 

MakMan44

stole corsi's dream
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2009
19,363
Pilgrim said:
With Joey Gallo on the way, I wonder if the Rangers would deal Beltre.

Between his short contract and defensive brilliance, he would be perfect for giving Bogaerts a chance at short.
I'd like love it, but it would take a ton to a get Beltre and it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to move what I think the Rangers would want for him. 
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,231
Washington DC
Joey Gallo is a nice prospect, to be sure. However, he's at least a year a way.
 
He has only 190 PAs at AA and is in his age 20 season. Furthermore, even though he's got jaw dropping power, he also is striking out 43% of his plate appearances at the level. 
 
I don't think the Rangers are likely to trade Beltre behind the reasoning that they need to clear a space for Gallo. If they do trade him, it likely won't because of Gallo, not yet, anyway.
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
Yazdog8 said:
Farrell on Middlebrooks: 'The opportunity is there in front of him right now.'
 
Holt at 3B and leading off again tonight vs the RHP.
 
Farrell must still be absolutely ripshit over Will's first-pitch swing (and subsequent 1-2 GO) with the bases loaded in the 7th last night, because sitting 3 times in 5 games sounds more like the dog house than an "opportunity".
 
I'm becoming more and more convinced that even if he starts hitting, there's no way he's back with Boston in 2015.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if he's pissed about one at bat last night, what do the previous 2 DNP in 3 games have to do with it? 
That's it's been a recurring trend? The more things change the more they stay the same. We are wasting our time with WMB.....we've been wasting our time with WMB.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,614
Paging Dick Allen, please call the Red Sox clubhouse in St. Louis.
 

Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,837
So...never? 
 
Look if all he got out of this was Dell and a couple hundred k that's not so bad.  I am sure in about 5 years he'll be an MVP candidate for Oakland.  
 

mt8thsw9th

anti-SoSHal
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
17,121
Brooklyn
Harry Hooper said:
Paging Dick Allen, please call the Red Sox clubhouse in St. Louis.
Jim Rice might be more useful as a cautionary tale, because at least Dick Allen wasn't stubborn enough about not heeding others' advice about not trying corrective measures. Rice may have put up a HOF-worthy career if not for his stubbornness. :D
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
I think Middlebrooks still has a slim chance to win the starting 3B job for 2015, but he's going to have to start crushing it, fast. Otherwise the Red Sox can mix Holt/Bogaerts with any number of free agents. They could go big and bring in Ramirez/Sandoval, or Lowrie/Headley/Cabrera from the 2nd tier. They could even grab Hardy/Callaspo/Drew from the bargain bin (you could probably argue about these tiers, which I put zero thought into). There are just too many more reliable options available. Hell, if they're desperate they could even mix Kelly Johnson in there. 
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
Papelbon's Poutine said:
I simply don't see what last night has to do with tonight given the trend and match ups. 
 
I probably could have phrased that post better. Citing that one PA was intended as a tongue-in-cheek reference as something emblematic of what HRB referred to. It wasn't the first time we've seen an ill-suited approach from Will relative to situations at hand.
 
They get two men on in the 7th inning of a 1-1 game, both move into scoring position, and the opponent walks a light-hitting rookie (Vazquez), loading the bases to get to Will. Swinging at the first offering in that situation, with the pitcher working from the stretch, was ill-advised unless it was a pitch he could crush. It wasn't (94 mph sinker riding inside), and he didn't. Despite the fact that a run scored on the play, it was a costly decision.
 
In 88 PA, he's had 17 first-pitch swings this year. Nine of them were put into play with 3 hits, one of them a HR. So that's six outs and eight 0-1 counts resulting from his aggression. In PAs where he falls behind 0-1 (there've been 37 with called first strikes) he's hitting a robust .209/.261/.279/.540.
 
In his 660 combined PA in 2012-13 he swung at the first pitch 166 times (25.2%). On 58 of those swings he put the ball in play with 19 H (8 of them HR) and 2 SF. So that's 39 outs and 108 counts of 0-1, and after such counts (378 PA) he hit .227/.246/.380/.626 over those two seasons.
 
There are guys for whom first-pitch swinging is a good fit, or at least an acceptable risk. Among them are Miguel Cabrera and Jose Abreu (both 38% first-pitch swingers). But they mash initial offerings with greater efficiency and productivity than Will does, and they're also far better hitters than Will after falling behind 0-1 in counts.
 
So yeah, Farrell is likely frustrated over more than that one PA last night. But I still want to see Middlebrooks get the "opportunity" to prove he can be a power bat for this club -- or at least something other than a black hole.
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
I wouldn't be anointing St. Deven just yet .. considering his sub .700 OPS in AAA
It wouldn't be that surprising to see him reach Boston around this time next season (unless of course he's traded beforehand). That not based so much on his initial 106 at bats in Pawtucket this year as his previous  268 at bats in Portland, also for some batters OPS does not tell one the real picture as much as BA and OBP do. Marrero is not going to be a power hitter by any means but his .291 BA and .371 OBP are encouraging. He's adjusting to AAA and while his numbers are far from impressive his .255 BA and .292  are not that suprising for anyones initial 100 at bats in AAA. All you have to do is check out the previous season when he was promoted to AA Portland for his final 72 at bats and he batted .236 with a .321 OBP. He adjusted very well this year to Portland expect the same next year with Pawtucket.
Also this bit from Sox propsects tell you how the front office feels about him,  In 2013, he became the first Red Sox position player to be invited to Major League Spring Training the year after being drafted since Scott Hatteberg (1992).
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
So he pinch hits for Joe Kelly vs the LHP, with Betts on 1st, and Farrell has him bunt?
 
Kelly successfully bunted 8 times this season before the trade. Just saying.
 
I'm really glad Farrell is giving Will an "opportunity" to prove his worth.
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
Plympton91 said:
100 at bat samples are meaningless.
 
I'm more concerned about Middlebrooks' ability to play on the field long enough to generate a meaningful sample. 
 
As a limit case, would you agree that if Middlebrooks struck out in 200 straight AB or hit a HR in 200 straight AB, that such events might have meaning? If those could be said to have meaning, then one could say that in the context of extreme performances, one might be able to derive some utility from such a sample. Given that my Bayesian-type prior is that Middlebrooks has a crippling difficulty with making contact and can't stay healthy, it would take something approaching an extreme performance to alter my prior.
 
So I mostly agree, but context is everything. 
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,507
Not here
mabrowndog said:
So he pinch hits for Joe Kelly vs the LHP, with Betts on 1st, and Farrell has him bunt?
 
Kelly successfully bunted 8 times this season before the trade. Just saying.
 
I'm really glad Farrell is giving Will an "opportunity" to prove his worth.
 
It's really starting to look like Farrell has no intention of giving Middlebrooks the at bats he needs which is strainge coming after a statement where Farrell said the opportunity is right in front of him. It almost makesme wonder if there's some kind of effort or attitude thing behind the scenes that we aren't seeing.
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
Rasputin said:
 
It's really starting to look like Farrell has no intention of giving Middlebrooks the at bats he needs which is strainge coming after a statement where Farrell said the opportunity is right in front of him. It almost makesme wonder if there's some kind of effort or attitude thing behind the scenes that we aren't seeing.
 
I have absolutely no hard evidence for this, but Farrell strikes me as the kind of manager that goes off "feel" a lot and occasionally ignores the numbers or the strong play. Admittedly, most of that feeling stems from his seemingly big love affair for Gomes despite his flaws, but there's been other less prominent times where it becomes a bit of a thing for a while (benching Salty for Ross in the playoffs, not playing to Nava's strengths earlier this year, current situation with WMB, X over Drew last season, etc.) Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't...I just wish we, as fans with no clubhouse insight, had a real explanation or justification for it, because the real reason could be one of a thousand things and we're all sitting here speculating.
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
Adrian's Dome said:
 
I have absolutely no hard evidence for this, but Farrell strikes me as the kind of manager that goes off "feel" a lot and occasionally ignores the numbers or the strong play. Admittedly, most of that feeling stems from his seemingly big love affair for Gomes despite his flaws, but there's been other less prominent times where it becomes a bit of a thing for a while (benching Salty for Ross in the playoffs, not playing to Nava's strengths earlier this year, current situation with WMB, X over Drew last season, etc.) Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't...I just wish we, as fans with no clubhouse insight, had a real explanation or justification for it, because the real reason could be one of a thousand things and we're all sitting here speculating.
 
To me it seems like they're trying to get Holt as much playing time as possible, and if they want to get Betts in there too, then it leaves Middlebrooks a bit out in the cold. There's only so much playing time to go around. It could be that they're trying to prioritize time for Holt/Betts/Nava so as to be in a good position for a trade this winter. I'm guessing no one's going to want to give up too much for Middlebrooks, so maybe the thinking is play the guys you might be able to get something good for. 
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
alwyn96 said:
 
To me it seems like they're trying to get Holt as much playing time as possible, and if they want to get Betts in there too, then it leaves Middlebrooks a bit out in the cold. There's only so much playing time to go around. It could be that they're trying to prioritize time for Holt/Betts/Nava so as to be in a good position for a trade this winter. I'm guessing no one's going to want to give up too much for Middlebrooks, so maybe the thinking is play the guys you might be able to get something good for. 
 
That's very fixable by getting Betts consistent playing time in AAA and seeing what you have with WMB in the majors for the remainder of a lost season, though. Why push to get Betts major-league ABs when he's still only 21 and didn't even get a ton of time down there to begin with? It's not like Mookie would lose trade value by tearing up Pawtucket for a couple months.
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
Adrian's Dome said:
 
That's very fixable by getting Betts consistent playing time in AAA and seeing what you have with WMB in the majors for the remainder of a lost season, though. Why push to get Betts major-league ABs when he's still only 21 and didn't even get a ton of time down there to begin with? It's not like Mookie would lose trade value by tearing up Pawtucket for a couple months.
 
I agree with you on Mookie. Maybe they think it would boost his trade value if he played well in MLB? Maybe they think he's an exciting story that will get fans to tune in to otherwise meaningless games? Maybe they think he's earned it? I don't know. I think he should probably be getting regular PA in AAA, although there's only like 3 weeks or so left in their season, so it might not matter that much.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,552
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Adrian's Dome said:
 
That's very fixable by getting Betts consistent playing time in AAA and seeing what you have with WMB in the majors for the remainder of a lost season, though. Why push to get Betts major-league ABs when he's still only 21 and didn't even get a ton of time down there to begin with? It's not like Mookie would lose trade value by tearing up Pawtucket for a couple months.
 
Or rest Pedroia now and then.  Betts spent most of his minors time at 2b.  
 
WMB should be in there every day.  
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,695
alwyn96 said:
I think Middlebrooks still has a slim chance to win the starting 3B job for 2015, but he's going to have to start crushing it, fast. Otherwise the Red Sox can mix Holt/Bogaerts with any number of free agents.
 
Plesae, no to the bolded.  There's no way Xander should be yanked back to third again anytime soon.  He's back to looking comfortable at SS, which will hopefully lead to him feeling comfortable, period, and a better overall performance as a result.  Let him stay at shortstop until a move is dictated by his play or a prospect below him and solve the 3B problem some other way.
 

threecy

Cosbologist
SoSH Member
Sep 1, 2006
1,587
Tamworth, NH
alwyn96 said:
 
To me it seems like they're trying to get Holt as much playing time as possible, and if they want to get Betts in there too, then it leaves Middlebrooks a bit out in the cold.
I think we tend to look at WMB as a prospect still, but it's important to note that he and Holt are only three months apart in age.  Unless Middlebrooks can plug the holes in his game, Holt may well have passed him in terms of Major League potential.
 

ctsoxfan5

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2004
809
threecy said:
I think we tend to look at WMB as a prospect still, but it's important to note that he and Holt are only three months apart in age.  Unless Middlebrooks can plug the holes in his game, Holt may well have passed him in terms of Major League potential.
 
In the last 17 games, Holt has hit .197/.260/.254.  I'm not convinced that Holt didn't just have a great hot streak for a few months.  We'll see what he does in the next two months. 
 

jasail

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,190
Boston
Rovin Romine said:
 
Or rest Pedroia now and then.  Betts spent most of his minors time at 2b.  
 
WMB should be in there every day.  
 
We the fans (and arm-chair managers and GMs) have a very different perspective about the rest of the season than management.  We look at the remainder of 2014 as a strict opportunity for certain players to showcase their stuff and audition for 2015, wins be damned. This is more evident among those players that we are pining for to improve (e.g., WMB, JBJ).
 
JF seemingly he has a different perspective. He has a clubhouse full of competitors to manage. What does it say to a group of players, particularly young players, if Nava or Holt sit so that WMB can get ABs? That we value potential more than results and regardless of how hard you work and how good the results are, if someone with a better pedigree than you comes along, you sit. That's a bad message to send to a roster full of guys trying to prove their worth at the MLB level. Additionally, how would such a move play with the veterans (e.g., Ortiz)? If Farrell isn't trying to field the best team on a daily basis, then there really isn't good reason for these guys to risk injury that may affect their 2015 or their future value. That is not the type of veteran leadership the team wants around a bunch of impressionable guys in their early 20's.  
 
So Farrell has to find a balance between fielding his best team and giving guys auditions. It seems like that balance involves playing Holt on an everyday basis (mostly at 3B but also at SS/2B/OF), using Mookie platoon with JBJ andto spell Cespedes and Nava in the OF and picking some spots for WMB that may be beneficial to him. As a result, WMB is going to get to play 3B against LHP and probably get some spots against RHP that don't throw in the mid-90s. He is going to have to prove himself in these limited but favorable spots to get more playing time. Considering his play at AAA and in MLB since April 2013, that is exactly the role he deserves.  
 
IMO, the only thing the club is interested in watching him do over the next two months is not diminish his trade value any further. 
 

threecy

Cosbologist
SoSH Member
Sep 1, 2006
1,587
Tamworth, NH
ctsoxfan5 said:
 
In the last 17 games, Holt has hit .197/.260/.254.  I'm not convinced that Holt didn't just have a great hot streak for a few months.  We'll see what he does in the next two months. 
Keep in mind that they're 3 months apart in age and both reached AA the same year (Middlebrooks started minor league ball one season earlier than Holt and thus played one more season of A ball)
 
  [tablegrid=  ]Brock Holt               Year PA BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS A- (1 season) 285 26 31 .299 .361 .449 .810 A+ (1 season) 218 19 30 .351 .410 .438 .848 AA (2 seasons) 1011 90 136 .302 .370 .406 .777 AAA (3 seasons) 556 47 75 .304 .367 .385 .752                 Will Middlebrooks               Year PA BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS A- (2 seasons) 241 14 74 .258 .304 .412 .716 A (1 season) 427 48 123 .265 .349 .404 .753 A+ (1 season) 481 35 121 .276 .331 .439 .770 AA (1 season) 397 21 95 .302 .345 .520 .865 AAA (4 seasons) 468 32 104 .259 .310 .463 .773   [/tablegrid]
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
Something I would like to see, and that Farrell briefly mentioned when WMB first started his AAA rehab, is WMB playing left field.  Craig is on the DL.  Victorino is done for the year.  Cespedes is an every day guy in one corner, but then you have Nava, Bradley, and Holt as all LH batters.  Why not let WMB take over the platoon role vacated by trading Gomes (good for 1-2 games a week at least) with Nava, spell Napoli at 1B once or twice a week (which in turn could include spelling Ortiz at DH with Napoli), and play one or two games a week at 3B?
 
Suddenly he'd be a more or less every day guy between three different positions.  Holt can take 3-4 of the 3B starts with Betts getting a couple games there himself to see if he should be in that mix, Betts can split CF duties with Bradley, and the two of them would share backing up Cespedes in RF and Pedroia at 2B.  It isn't ideal for Betts but they've chosen to put him on the ML roster so they might as well try to get him as much action as possible.
 
Something like this:
C - Vazquez 5/wk, Butler 2/wk
1B - Napoli 5/wk, WMB 2/wk
2B - Pedroia 6/wk, Betts 1/wk
3B - Holt 3/wk, WMB 2/wk, Betts 2/wk
SS - Bogaerts 6/wk, Holt 1/wk
LF - Nava 4-5/wk (based on LH matchups), WMB 2-3/wk
CF - Bradley 4-5/wk, Betts 2-3/wk
RF - Cespedes 6/wk, Holt 1/wk
DH - Ortiz 6/wk, Napoli 1/wk
 
That would have WMB playing 6-7 games a week, Holt in 5 a week, and Betts in 5-6 games a week.  So maybe shave WMB's 3B or LF time down a game or so each week based on how many LHP the club is facing (getting him out against RHP in LHP heavy weeks) to put them all in a 5-6 games per week rotation.
 
Or I guess Farrell can instead continue to bury a known streaky hitter with infrequent ABs and limited fielding time.  Their choice really.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,552
Miami (oh, Miami!)
jasail said:
 
We the fans (and arm-chair managers and GMs) have a very different perspective about the rest of the season than management.  We look at the remainder of 2014 as a strict opportunity for certain players to showcase their stuff and audition for 2015, wins be damned. This is more evident among those players that we are pining for to improve (e.g., WMB, JBJ).
 
JF seemingly he has a different perspective. He has a clubhouse full of competitors to manage. What does it say to a group of players, particularly young players, if Nava or Holt sit so that WMB can get ABs? That we value potential more than results and regardless of how hard you work and how good the results are, if someone with a better pedigree than you comes along, you sit. That's a bad message to send to a roster full of guys trying to prove their worth at the MLB level. Additionally, how would such a move play with the veterans (e.g., Ortiz)? If Farrell isn't trying to field the best team on a daily basis, then there really isn't good reason for these guys to risk injury that may affect their 2015 or their future value. That is not the type of veteran leadership the team wants around a bunch of impressionable guys in their early 20's.  
 
So Farrell has to find a balance between fielding his best team and giving guys auditions. It seems like that balance involves playing Holt on an everyday basis (mostly at 3B but also at SS/2B/OF), using Mookie platoon with JBJ andto spell Cespedes and Nava in the OF and picking some spots for WMB that may be beneficial to him. As a result, WMB is going to get to play 3B against LHP and probably get some spots against RHP that don't throw in the mid-90s. He is going to have to prove himself in these limited but favorable spots to get more playing time. Considering his play at AAA and in MLB since April 2013, that is exactly the role he deserves.  
 
IMO, the only thing the club is interested in watching him do over the next two months is not diminish his trade value any further. 
 
I understand what you're saying.  There's the additional issue of whether or not slumping players need to bat through their slumps, plus who you're going to rest. 
 
However, I don't see it as all that complicated.  There's a clear MLB pecking order in terms of vets and who is the incumbent player at any position.  We're also clearly out of contention.  I get that guys are competitive and want to pump up their individual stats, but we're also thin on the ground for established players taking up starting position slots, especially with Victorino having had back surgery. 
 
Holt is the super sub.  There's no need to try to install the guy at any position.  He can play 4 out of 5 days rotating through the OF, 3b, SS, 2B, or 1B if really needed.  Plus there's no need to cram Holt in the lineup every single day.  We're out of it.  Get him exposure, but don't do backflips to put him in the lineup. 
 
Betts rotates in the OF and 2B (resting Pedroia on days when Holt does not play or plays elsewhere).
 
Players who need to figure it out offensively or defensively/get exposure:
WMB - regular 3B.
Xander - regular SS.
JBJ - regular CF.
Craig - on the DL, but DH (resting Ortiz), maybe 1B, the LH half of the Nava Platoon, or just in the OF.
Vazquez - regular C.
 
Players we don't really care about:
Herrera
 
Players who need to shut it down or take it easy:
Pedroia
Ortiz
Napoli
Ross
 
Cup of Coffee players:
Cecchini
Brentz
Shaw
 
So who, really, is WMB displacing if he's reinstalled as the regular 3B?  Holt?  
 

mt8thsw9th

anti-SoSHal
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
17,121
Brooklyn
Drek717 said:
Or I guess Farrell can instead continue to bury a known streaky hitter with infrequent ABs and limited fielding time.  Their choice really.
 
What is this based on? Do "streaky" hitters get hurt more by inconsistent playing time than those who aren't "streaky"? I don't think infrequent play is necessarily good for anyone. However, do you put up with weeks of him being an out machine, just hoping there will be a one week stretch where he's seeing the ball well? Or they could play better players (who better fit into the 2015+ goals) and have him be the bench guy, types who tend to get infrequent at bats and limited fielding time. Penciling in Middlebrooks in LF 2-3 days a week seems like a stretch given he's never played there, and there is a chance they didn't like what they see at all if/when they worked him out there. That's their choice as well.
 
Frankly even optioning him will take away at bats from Travis Shaw and Cecchini, which likely isn't in the team's developmental plans. At this point I'd be happy for him that's he's cashing MLB checks. Given he will be out of options after this season, I could see him being dumped in the offseason given they have to add at the minimum Swihart, Barnes, Shaw, Eduardo Rodriguez, and Sean Coyle to the 40 man roster, and anyone else they deem valuable enough to protect from the Rule 5 draft.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,614
Rasputin said:
 
It's really starting to look like Farrell has no intention of giving Middlebrooks the at bats he needs which is strainge coming after a statement where Farrell said the opportunity is right in front of him. It almost makesme wonder if there's some kind of effort or attitude thing behind the scenes that we aren't seeing.
 
I think this might be playing a role. Farrell went out of his way to tell people that JBJ's sitting was related to his working on things behind the scenes. Does WMB's PT at least raise the possibility that he *isn't* necessarily working on things behind the scenes as the team would like?
 
 
 
We the fans (and arm-chair managers and GMs) have a very different perspective about the rest of the season than management. We look at the remainder of 2014 as a strict opportunity for certain players to showcase their stuff and audition for 2015, wins be damned. This is more evident among those players that we are pining for to improve (e.g., WMB, JBJ).
 
JF seemingly he has a different perspective. He has a clubhouse full of competitors to manage. What does it say to a group of players, particularly young players, if Nava or Holt sit so that WMB can get ABs? That we value potential more than results and regardless of how hard you work and how good the results are, if someone with a better pedigree than you comes along, you sit. That's a bad message to send to a roster full of guys trying to prove their worth at the MLB level. Additionally, how would such a move play with the veterans (e.g., Ortiz)? If Farrell isn't trying to field the best team on a daily basis, then there really isn't good reason for these guys to risk injury that may affect their 2015 or their future value. That is not the type of veteran leadership the team wants around a bunch of impressionable guys in their early 20's.
 
So Farrell has to find a balance between fielding his best team and giving guys auditions.
 
 
This can't be said enough. I think the veterans are strong enough to understand what's going on.  But I think that to the extent that playing 5 (or more?) guys "trying to prove themselves" all at the same time reduces the team's chance to win any one game, the FO could think that that has a negative effect on those players.   The flip side is to tell them "just play for yourselves, the hell with the outcome," which is the exact opposite of the culture they want to have. It *is* tricky, and Cherington admitted as much yesterday.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.