Will Hanley Play 1B Competently - First Hand Observations

Rovin Romine

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Right, and getting Young into games I can understand. At least when it involves him mashing against LHP. If it were simply Farrell laying out how he hopes to regularly use Young to hit for Holt against a tough LHP in key situations, and then sub in Castillo at LF for better defense...that makes sense.

But the way I read the article, Farrell's plans include substituting Pablo's defense for Shaw's in the late innings, when Shaw's the better defender at 3B...or alternatively substituting Castillo's defense for Bradley's in the late innings, when Bradley's the better defender at CF...and moving Holt from LF to 3B and perhaps back to LF or over to CF...that stuff I don't really get.

Fortunately, Hanley's showing enough that the machinations don't have to involve arcane rotations involving Shaw moving across the diamond to play 1B, as well.
Yesterday was sort of a perfect case in point. Young PHs for Shaw against a lefty, getting on and eventually scoring. Young goes to LF and Holt switches to 3B to cover for the departed Shaw. When Young next comes up, Sandoval PHs for Young against a righty. Sandoval goes to 3B and and Holt switches back to LF to cover for the departed Young.

It allows Shaw to get the lions share of ABs at 3B while he's hot, and the only risk is Sandoval's/Holt's 3B defense could burn you in a late game. (Assuming you just don't leave Young/Holt in the lineup.)

The key is Holt's ability to cover any of the IF positions. Theoretically if Farrell starts Holt against RH starters, he can later use Young to PH for anyone but the catcher. That could be a very potent weapon. He could also use a pinch runner in the same type of "Holt shifts to cover" scenario (but I think that's less likely, since we don't have a dedicated speedster and the most obvious PR candidates are the Catchers and Ortiz.)
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Yesterday was sort of a perfect case in point. Young PHs for Shaw against a lefty, getting on and eventually scoring. Young goes to LF and Holt switches to 3B to cover for the departed Shaw. When Young next comes up, Sandoval PHs for Young against a righty. Sandoval goes to 3B and and Holt switches back to LF to cover for the departed Young.

It allows Shaw to get the lions share of ABs at 3B while he's hot, and the only risk is Sandoval's/Holt's 3B defense could burn you in a late game. (Assuming you just don't leave Young/Holt in the lineup.)

The key is Holt's ability to cover any of the IF positions. Theoretically if Farrell starts Holt against RH starters, he can later use Young to PH for anyone but the catcher. That could be a very potent weapon. He could also use a pinch runner in the same type of "Holt shifts to cover" scenario (but I think that's less likely, since we don't have a dedicated speedster and the most obvious PR candidates are the Catchers and Ortiz.)
are we assuming Shaw's 3B defense is better than both Sandoval and Holt's?
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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are we assuming Shaw's 3B defense is better than both Sandoval and Holt's?
Apparently Shaw won the 3b job on the strength of his defense being better than Panda's. I'm not sure how he compares to Holt, but 3b is probably Holt's weakest position (at least relative to difficulty) and Holt being flexible enough to move around is the thing that makes the whole scheme work.
 

nothumb

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Apparently Shaw won the 3b job on the strength of his defense being better than Panda's. I'm not sure how he compares to Holt, but 3b is probably Holt's weakest position (at least relative to difficulty) and Holt being flexible enough to move around is the thing that makes the whole scheme work.
Both DRS and UZR think Holt is a significantly below-average third baseman. The ML sample sizes for Shaw are too small to mean anything but they have him basically average. I don't know where to find minor league numbers.

I think we might want to break out the bench utilization / pinch hitting issue into a new thread based on Farrell's comments. I'm pretty skeptical of it but feel like it needs a lot of teasing out.

If you look at the scenario from Opening Day, you had Young PH for Shaw (who has the best ML track record against lefties of the three candidates to be PH vs. a LOOGY). Young hits what should be a routine fly out. Next time around, Pablo hits for Young. So you have to look at the benefit of hitting Young for Shaw in a single AB vs. the drop-off from Shaw to Holt/Panda, both defensively and in future ABs against RHP. Depending on how Panda hits, you could end up giving back 100% of the value of Young facing the LHP in the very next PA when Panda is hitting where Shaw would have hit, before you even factor in defense.

Now if you really wanted to get into it you have to factor in the other team's bullpen arms, leverage and game situation, plus positional flexibility for the remainder of the game. I mean god forbid they PH Brock in the 6th inning and then Dustin pulls a hammy in the 7th. Usually when managers are playing the lefty/righty matchups it's with a utility guy still available on the bench, but our utility guy is already in the game, and is in fact one of the people who Farrell might take out of the game to get Young into it.

So if you PH Shaw you are almost certainly downgrading the defense plus risk downgrading that spot in the order for future PAs offensively. When you PH Holt you are one unlucky play away from seeing Pedroia play SS or Shaw play 2B or god knows what. (Ok actually you probably bring Mookie into the infield there, but still). When you PH for JBJ you lose his defense.

There is also the meta-game issue of player usage and development and how this affects the potential ML development of particularly JBJ and Shaw, who both still have a chance to be useful everyday players. It doesn't sound like Farrell is going to be completely trigger happy about this, but to me, if it's a marginal edge, I'm not risking all that positional flexibility and player development just to get Chris Young a few extra ABs.
 

Pozo the Clown

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...If you look at the scenario from Opening Day, you had Young PH for Shaw (who has the best ML track record against lefties of the three candidates to be PH vs. a LOOGY). Young hits what should be a routine fly out. Next time around, Pablo hits for Young. So you have to look at the benefit of hitting Young for Shaw in a single AB vs. the drop-off from Shaw to Holt/Panda, both defensively and in future ABs against RHP. Depending on how Panda hits, you could end up giving back 100% of the value of Young facing the LHP in the very next PA when Panda is hitting where Shaw would have hit, before you even factor in defense.

Now if you really wanted to get into it you have to factor in the other team's bullpen arms, leverage and game situation, plus positional flexibility for the remainder of the game. I mean god forbid they PH Brock in the 6th inning and then Dustin pulls a hammy in the 7th. Usually when managers are playing the lefty/righty matchups it's with a utility guy still available on the bench, but our utility guy is already in the game, and is in fact one of the people who Farrell might take out of the game to get Young into it.

So if you PH Shaw you are almost certainly downgrading the defense plus risk downgrading that spot in the order for future PAs offensively. When you PH Holt you are one unlucky play away from seeing Pedroia play SS or Shaw play 2B or god knows what. (Ok actually you probably bring Mookie into the infield there, but still). When you PH for JBJ you lose his defense.

There is also the meta-game issue of player usage and development and how this affects the potential ML development of particularly JBJ and Shaw, who both still have a chance to be useful everyday players. It doesn't sound like Farrell is going to be completely trigger happy about this, but to me, if it's a marginal edge, I'm not risking all that positional flexibility and player development just to get Chris Young a few extra ABs.
Or perhas Farrel's main objective is to give everyone on his his bench (whom he'll eventually need) some valuable ABs
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Or perhas Farrel's main objective is to give everyone on his his bench (whom he'll eventually need) some valuable ABs
Except that, even without the questionable value of Farrell burning superior defenders to get the bench some pinch-hitting opportunities, the team remains one collision on a left-side pop-up away from needing Mookie or Pedroia to move to SS for the rest of the game. And that's without burning starters for the bench players to get their valuable ABs.

When your only back-up middle infielder also happens to be your starting LF, you've got a problem. And that problem doesn't go away when you have to commit to an NL-style sequence of four-players-four-moves to obtain the simple marginal benefit of pinch-hitting Young and Panda once each per game. Especially when Young is hitting for a pitcher, but for one of the team's three LHH starters who all possess career MLB reverse platoon splits, and Panda is hitting for Young.

But let's be frank here, this issue is only really about Shaw and Bradley. Because there's no way BROCKHOLT should be subbed for Young under any circumstance in the regular season. The problem of him also being the team's only back-up middle infielder also means there's no justification for burning him for Young.

This is precisely why I can't see any reason whatsoever for Castillo to remain on the team instead of Marrero. Honestly, the 25-man roster would be a complete and utter disaster if Hanley hadn't shown competence at 1B.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Both DRS and UZR think Holt is a significantly below-average third baseman. The ML sample sizes for Shaw are too small to mean anything but they have him basically average.
The ML sample sizes for Holt (half a season's worth of innings scattered over three years), while bigger than Shaw's, are also too small to be relied on. Shaw may be better, but we don't really know that yet, and we certainly don't know (and may never have enough data to say with confidence) how much better.

If you look at the scenario from Opening Day, you had Young PH for Shaw (who has the best ML track record against lefties of the three candidates to be PH vs. a LOOGY). Young hits what should be a routine fly out. Next time around, Pablo hits for Young. So you have to look at the benefit of hitting Young for Shaw in a single AB vs. the drop-off from Shaw to Holt/Panda, both defensively and in future ABs against RHP.
wRC+ vs. RHP, 2015:
Shaw 93
Holt 90
Sandoval 99

Now granted, these are pretty small samples -- the largest number of PA involved is Holt's 345. I hope Shaw is better than a 93 hitter vs. RHP. But my point is that even in his 2015 annus horribilis, the one thing that Panda could still more or less do is hit righthanded pitching. It's not at all clear that there's a "dropoff" from Shaw to him in that scenario, and if there is, it's probably not a large one.
 

Al Zarilla

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Any chance Sandoval get's the DH spot if Hanley sticks at 1B?
Groan, if he suddenly starts hitting like Prince Fielder, another overweight guy who has just one tool left (in a good season, or is that all he ever had?) OK. Problem is, Panda's only remaining good tools are eating utensils. Sorry for the one millionth Panda eating reference. Do I get a booby prize?
 

nvalvo

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He wouldn't be great or even all that good at DH, but that could be a way of recuperating his value with an eye to a trade, and serving as a bridge to the power prospects we have in A ball.

I doubt he's still on the team at the 2017 trade deadline, however.
 

nothumb

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If he had a big bounceback to the point where he is putting up numbers vs RHP similar to 2 or 3 years ago, then a Panda / Young DH platoon (with others rotating and both guys seeing some starts in the field) wouldn't be awful in 2017. And would give some useful positional flexibility. In an ideal world you have Holt as a supersub, a starting LF with some pop and your current infield plays well (and/or Moncada starts pounding on the door for the 3b job).

Those are all big ifs, with the biggest probably being Panda bouncing back to 120 wRC+ vs RHP.
 

shaggydog2000

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If he had a big bounceback to the point where he is putting up numbers vs RHP similar to 2 or 3 years ago, then a Panda / Young DH platoon (with others rotating and both guys seeing some starts in the field) wouldn't be awful in 2017. And would give some useful positional flexibility. In an ideal world you have Holt as a supersub, a starting LF with some pop and your current infield plays well (and/or Moncada starts pounding on the door for the 3b job).

Those are all big ifs, with the biggest probably being Panda bouncing back to 120 wRC+ vs RHP.
Wait, did you just suggest a guy who is too fat to cover more than a few feet to either side as a 3B being allowed to roam an outfield, even if it is a left field? Sir, you can not just slip a suggestion like that into a whole pile of reasonable discourse. It's like making your way through a tasty fruit salad and discovering a hunk of tomato. Sure, it belongs there in a technical sense because it is a fruit, but it kind of sours the whole experience.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Wait, did you just suggest a guy who is too fat to cover more than a few feet to either side as a 3B being allowed to roam an outfield, even if it is a left field? Sir, you can not just slip a suggestion like that into a whole pile of reasonable discourse. It's like making your way through a tasty fruit salad and discovering a hunk of tomato. Sure, it belongs there in a technical sense because it is a fruit, but it kind of sours the whole experience.
I've read nothumb's post twice and I don't see where he suggests Panda plays the outfield. He suggests a Panda/Young platoon at DH with other guys rotating in (presumably Hanley and/or Shaw to open up time at 3B)...nothing to do with the outfield. Unless you're misreading his ideal scenario of having a "a starting LF with some pop" as suggesting Panda be that guy. I take that to mean the team will acquire such a player in the future (or have one emerge from within).

Of course it's all silly because even if Sandoval recovers the form from his very best season, he's still not an ideal candidate for the DH spot, at least not in a full time, or even a platoon, situation.
 

shaggydog2000

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I've read nothumb's post twice and I don't see where he suggests Panda plays the outfield. He suggests a Panda/Young platoon at DH with other guys rotating in (presumably Hanley and/or Shaw to open up time at 3B)...nothing to do with the outfield. Unless you're misreading his ideal scenario of having a "a starting LF with some pop" as suggesting Panda be that guy. I take that to mean the team will acquire such a player in the future (or have one emerge from within).

Of course it's all silly because even if Sandoval recovers the form from his very best season, he's still not an ideal candidate for the DH spot, at least not in a full time, or even a platoon, situation.
You are right. I misread field as outfield for some reason. I am defective. I think in 2017 they would hope to have Sam Travis pushing Hanley to DH or at least sharing time at 1B in some sort of rotation involving DH. That depends on his development this year in Pawtucket of course. I don't see the Sox letting Sandoval stand in the way of that move if they want to do it. Shaw would have to stick at 3rd, and Sandoval would have to get shipped out in order to make the roster work in that situation.
 

nothumb

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I've read nothumb's post twice and I don't see where he suggests Panda plays the outfield. He suggests a Panda/Young platoon at DH with other guys rotating in (presumably Hanley and/or Shaw to open up time at 3B)...nothing to do with the outfield. Unless you're misreading his ideal scenario of having a "a starting LF with some pop" as suggesting Panda be that guy. I take that to mean the team will acquire such a player in the future (or have one emerge from within).

Of course it's all silly because even if Sandoval recovers the form from his very best season, he's still not an ideal candidate for the DH spot, at least not in a full time, or even a platoon, situation.
Yeah I definitely wasn't saying put Panda in the OF. Sorry if post was a bit imprecise. Basically saying, looking ahead to 2017, that ideally you find an everyday LF who is not Brock Holt, allowing Holt to go back to being a supersub. IF (big if) Panda bounces back against RHP and if (little if) your other internal options play out ok in the infield, you have Young as a 4th OF / platoon DH, Pablo as a strong side DH, and a remaining bench of Holt, a catcher, and a 5th OF / PH specialist / speed guy or whatever. In a perfect world your starting LF or your 5th OF can also back up 1b.

On mobile so can't easily look up what most teams are getting from the DH slot, but my guess is that a combination of 2012 or 2013 Pablo vs RHP and 2016 Young vs LHP would actually be above average. The problem with that is I doubt we ever see prime Pablo again, but I was just entertaining the question.
 

Pandemonium67

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Moderately? Man, tough crowd. If you scaled the possible scenarios from 0 to 100, Hanley has been close to 100 so far.

Yes, it's early, but after week one he's in "beyond my wildest fucking dreams" territory.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Handled that tough popup down the RF line nicely as well, and made a nice throw to keep the runner at second base. Might learn later that he didn't have to throw over, but he still did a nice job for a guy 1 week into the position.
 

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Worth noting that it was pretty obvious by this point last year that the OF experiment was going to be a bumpy ride. It's self-evidently different at 1B, even if he's not a Gold Glover over there.
 

joe dokes

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Worth noting that it was pretty obvious by this point last year that the OF experiment was going to be a bumpy ride. It's self-evidently different at 1B, even if he's not a Gold Glover over there.
He looks like a major league baseball player playing first base. Last year he looked like some guy playing outfield.
 

mfried

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He looks like a major league baseball player playing first base. Last year he looked like some guy playing outfield.
Hanley's body language reflects effort at first, in batter's box and on the base paths. He is a talented guy and if he's putting out he can do this job.
 

joe dokes

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Hanley's body language reflects effort at first, in batter's box and on the base paths. He is a talented guy and if he's putting out he can do this job.
Without belaboring the point, I think he was trying as hard as he could in LF; he just sucked at it.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Without belaboring the point, I think he was trying as hard as he could in LF; he just sucked at it.
Probably true, but I think mfried still has a point; maybe a less pejorative way to say it is that he looked, from day one, tentative out there--like he knew he wasn't a great fit for the gig, and was just hoping that didn't bite him in the ass too hard. He looks far more at home, engaged and confident at first.
 

YTF

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Credit where credit is due. Hanley did a fine job in receiving that pick off throw from Vazquez, fending off the ump and applying the tag to complete the strike 'em out, throw 'em out double play. Throws like this are part of Vazquez game and the fact that Ramirez handled the very first attempt so well makes me downright giddy. He hasn't been perfect there, but he seems to be embracing the move and from all reports he has genuine interest in playing there. So far, so good.
 

The Gray Eagle

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He was more than competent at finishing that DP in the 8th today and keeping his toe on the bag. Looked like an infielder, which is what he is and always has been.

He totally lost a popup in the same game and was pretty happy when Pedroia had it all the way anyway. And then at the end of the 8th there was another popup near the mound, with 4 or 5 guys kind of looking at each other thinking you take it, you take it. But Hanley took charge and handled it, just the way he was supposed to. If he had been passive or inattentive, that popup would have landed on the ground in the middle of several infielders.
 

Rasputin

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Yeah, I think it's pretty clear he's passed "competence" and had a chance to be pretty damn good.

We might actually have a chance to use the DH as a rotating half day off next year.
 

rotundlio

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[whoops my bad]

[on the double-post but I guess also on the quasi-epithet]
 
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Lose Remerswaal

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Watch Teixeira all you want, Mr. Cafardo, but he'd be a terrible choice for the Sox at 1B and/or DH. There's a reason most teams don't have a full time DH -- there's only one Papi. And Teixeira won't come "low cost".

I won't dignify your offensive description by discussing it, but it's 2016 dude, welcome to the real world.
 

rotundlio

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There's a reason most teams don't have a full time DH
And that reason is: only fifteen teams play with a DH, so they'd all have to employ one full-time for this not to be true. Last year there were apparently six full-time designated hitters, including 23-year-old Miguel Sanó. Edgar Martínez mashed until he was 41 and made the Hall of Fame. David Ortiz still isn't retiring.

And Teixeira won't come "low cost".
By this I was mostly weighting draft pick compensation, of which I expect there to be none. In this hypothetical we'd have $13 million coming off the books because David Ortiz says he's retiring.

I won't dignify your offensive description by discussing it, but it's 2016 dude, welcome to the real world.
Your rebuttal is totally unsubstantiated, and by "offensive description," Mr. Teixeira, I thought we were talking flyballs—I apologize! and I do solemnly respect that the rest of you hold yourselves to a higher standard than I stupidly don't. The LGBT community has my outspoken and unwavering respect, I wish them only the fullest freedoms from scrutiny and oppression applicable to them as human citizens. For the benefit of the board I would like to please redact my offending comment and post it anew, because it's pretty good stuff:


Re: the DH: I'm watching Mark Teixeira closely for signs of health. I've always been an admirer despite his Yankees affiliation, and the fact that he busted helps. If this is Hanley being Hanley, Tex would come short term, possibly low cost, and hit better than our other DH prospects: last year his average flyball distance settled between Encarnación's and Bautista's, year before that it was elite, and he hits about a ton of them with a walk rate nearly twice the league average. The BABIP gods have totally forsaken him, but he still authored a top-13 wRC+ last season golfing home runs into their bullshit over there. The DH spot has done wonders for Ortiz's good looks and I think it might, possibly, with better scouting, rather be spent on this open stanced shitheel than extra half days of unrest. If it weren't to work out, that would only be in microcosm of what we tried to sign up for in '07-'08.

But what am I saying, Ortiz ain't retiring.

We'd have a dearth of real hitters without Papi, no one wants us to sign E.E./Bautista, and what is the value of cycling guys through that spot, anyway?
 

whatittakes

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Whether he did or did not make the hall of fame there have been a lot of full time professional designated hitters and one of them eventually will, although it'll take a lot of sportswriters in a lot of NL cities getting over themselves to get it done.

There is definitely not "only one David Ortiz" if by that you mean the collection of players that can provide substantial value as full time designated hitters is small. It's nice to have DH by committee if you have more bats than positions for some of your top players but a full time DH is by no means a detriment to the team as long as he produces.

Actually using the DH spot might be an interesting way to work Blake Swihart back into the roster next year, and put his bat to work, if CV does what I think he's going to do and sews up the starting catcher position long term. Use Swihart as a full time hitter and part time catcher? the DH has been used for crazier antics. It would of course work better if you had another player on the team with at least some catching experience since I think you might wind up risking losing the DH occasionally otherwise in certain situations.
 

DJnVa

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Whether he did or did not make the hall of fame there have been a lot of full time professional designated hitters and one of them eventually will, although it'll take a lot of sportswriters in a lot of NL cities getting over themselves to get it done.
I guess it depends on your definition of "a lot". Only 8 guys have more than 4000 ABs at that position.

Brad Fulmer is 11th all time in ABs by a DH.
 
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Saints Rest

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Whether he did or did not make the hall of fame there have been a lot of full time professional designated hitters and one of them eventually will, although it'll take a lot of sportswriters in a lot of NL cities getting over themselves to get it done.

There is definitely not "only one David Ortiz" if by that you mean the collection of players that can provide substantial value as full time designated hitters is small. It's nice to have DH by committee if you have more bats than positions for some of your top players but a full time DH is by no means a detriment to the team as long as he produces.

Actually using the DH spot might be an interesting way to work Blake Swihart back into the roster next year, and put his bat to work, if CV does what I think he's going to do and sews up the starting catcher position long term. Use Swihart as a full time hitter and part time catcher? the DH has been used for crazier antics. It would of course work better if you had another player on the team with at least some catching experience since I think you might wind up risking losing the DH occasionally otherwise in certain situations.
How often does a catcher actually get forced out of the game by injury? the only time I can remember is when Tek broke his elbow diving for a popup on the on-deck circle. I have no idea how to even begin googling that.

As to DrewDawg's point about >4000 AB's as DH, that's equivalent to about 8 full seasons. That's a pretty high bar. It seems like what the Yankees have done with ARod for the last year + is the more likely optimal use for the DH: take a veteran slugger who, for whatever reason, can't really field a position anymore, and let them play out 3-4 years there full-time. Someone like an Adam Dunn from a few years back.
 

nvalvo

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How often does a catcher actually get forced out of the game by injury? the only time I can remember is when Tek broke his elbow diving for a popup on the on-deck circle. I have no idea how to even begin googling that.

As to DrewDawg's point about >4000 AB's as DH, that's equivalent to about 8 full seasons. That's a pretty high bar. It seems like what the Yankees have done with ARod for the last year + is the more likely optimal use for the DH: take a veteran slugger who, for whatever reason, can't really field a position anymore, and let them play out 3-4 years there full-time. Someone like an Adam Dunn from a few years back.
It's already happened at least once this season.
 

soxhop411

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So… Watch this video of Hanley if you have the time…..


Two things come to mind:
1. If thats what he looks like now after he lost 15Lbs of musscle over the winter….. Holy moly

2. Its amazing the turnaround Hanley has made compared to last year….. Everyone wanted him shipped out of BOS. Less than a year ago
 

DJnVa

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Two things come to mind:
1. If thats what he looks like now after he lost 15Lbs of musscle over the winter….. Holy moly
Not sure if he lost 15 pounds and all of it muscle--that would be odd.