Will Carlos Beltran make it to the Cooperstown?
- Thread starter Darnell's Son
- Start date
I really don't think he should be in the Hall.
Yup, he's had a long, pretty good career, but he was very rarely a top 5-10 player in the league. Closest he ever came to an MVP was 4th, next best was 9th, then nothing else in the top 10. I know MVPs don't always tell the whole story, but to only crack the top 10 twice in a major league career and be considered for the Hall?
I also don't think he's gonna get to 3000 hits He needs at least 2 more years after this, and I'm not sure he'll be able to stick around that long. Also, as mentioned in the article, I think the number of teas he's played on will hurt him (has there been any HoFer with 7 teams?)
Hall of Very Good, please.
Yup, he's had a long, pretty good career, but he was very rarely a top 5-10 player in the league. Closest he ever came to an MVP was 4th, next best was 9th, then nothing else in the top 10. I know MVPs don't always tell the whole story, but to only crack the top 10 twice in a major league career and be considered for the Hall?
I also don't think he's gonna get to 3000 hits He needs at least 2 more years after this, and I'm not sure he'll be able to stick around that long. Also, as mentioned in the article, I think the number of teas he's played on will hurt him (has there been any HoFer with 7 teams?)
Hall of Very Good, please.
There's no question that Beltran would fall far short if he retired now. His 854 OPS this season, however, suggests he might have enough left in the tank to push himself into contention. If he posts two more seasons in line with his recent norms, he'll be somewhere around 20th all-time in total bases -- everyone at or above that level who doesn't have steroid or gambling issues is either already in the Hall, or will be as soon as he's eligible. Such a two-year push would also land Beltran in the top 40 for RBI and the top 50 (or very close to it) for runs scored, and he'd be within spitting distance of 3,000 hits.
Beltran will be 40 in April, so the odds are against him posting two more seasons on par with his past three, but he's closer than I would've thought. Good article, Dave.
Beltran will be 40 in April, so the odds are against him posting two more seasons on par with his past three, but he's closer than I would've thought. Good article, Dave.
Yes. Very easy search too, right on the HoF site:
http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/hall-of-famers-seven-or-more-teams
Couple of the recent ones:
Ricky Henderson
Roberto Alomar
He's also one of 8 players to be in the 300HR 300 SB club. The other 7 are Bonds, Bonds, Mays, Arod, Andre Dawson, Reggie Sanders (who had a much better career than I remembered, but always injured) and Steve Finley. Arod is dirty and Finley probably is too.
Today: falling far short
Two more good years: in contention.
I don't think the Hall should work this way.
This sounds to me like the "Hall of Sustained Pretty-Good-ness". Or the "Hall of Counting Stats".
I'd rather see more players with rare amazing seasons in the hall. More Gary Sheffields- guys who at one moment of time you watched an at bat and thought "this guy is going to foul off every 99 mph pitch he sees until he gets one he can drive". More guys like Omar Vizquel and Ichiro and Vlad Guerrero and Johan Santana (some of those shoo ins). There were years when J. Giambi and Todd Helton and Pujols seemed unstoppable.
Basically I think single season excellence should be weighted more. I enjoy watching guys at their peak. I don't really care that much about their counting stats.
So you think someone like Eric Gagne should be in the HoF? Tim Lincecum? It's not all about counting stats, but yes, longevity should play a part.
I'm also confused on the players you're citing. Sheffield was a steroid user. The only reason Vizquel is even thought of is his longevity. Giambi was a user. Helton played in Coors. Pujols will be in.
(I will add that I think steroid users should be in, at least those that used before they were against the rules. Those since there can be a debate about.)
I'm also confused on the players you're citing. Sheffield was a steroid user. The only reason Vizquel is even thought of is his longevity. Giambi was a user. Helton played in Coors. Pujols will be in.
(I will add that I think steroid users should be in, at least those that used before they were against the rules. Those since there can be a debate about.)
Yeah. Lincecum was fun to watch for that year. Gagne I can't be impartial about because of the year he stunk for the Red Sox. But what about Johan Santana? Robb Nen?
I'd be an advocate for taking a player's top 5 years, perhaps adjusting for era/run scoring environment and perhaps position, and calling it a day. I'd add in some players with special skills (defense, DHing, slap hitting lefty and sprinting to first, crushing balls at the ankles, knuckleball throwing).
I could be talked into using a player's best five MONTHS instead of best five years.
Basically I want to select for the highest peaks.
I don't want Beltran's two more potential good years to push him from Very Good to HOF, basically due to longevity.
Personally I care about guys who were amazing to watch in perhaps a handful of important at-bats. I can watch and appreciate peak performance. I can't very well watch counting stats, and I don't appreciate them very much.
Dude hit 8 HRs in 12 playoff games in 2004. Slashed .435/.536/1.021. Granted it was 56 PA, but it was during the playoffs. 1.557 OPS, not too shabby.
edit: He also has the single highest career SB% in MLB all time for guys with more than 150 SB.
If that's the standard you're going for, then he should be in.
Two good years at the tail end of his career should have no effect.
No he shouldn't, at least not based on that.
Honest question - have you ever been to the Hall?
They have an entirely different wing dedicated to commemorating stand out seasons or historic performances. The exhibits rotate but at one time you could go see the bat Fernando Tatis hit two grand slams with or the glove John Vanlentine turned an unassisted triple play with.
That's appropriate for those players. Brady Anderson should have his big season noted but he shouldn't be enshrined as one of the greatest of the sport. Etc. I'm not necessarily a 'small Hall' guy, but there should be limits to who gets a plaque and no, players that had a great season should not be in. There would be like 10,000 people enshrined.
And I don't know why you're hung up on counting stats. The voters are moving away from that as a staple guideline and even before the sabermetric evolution, guys without the counting stats were getting in.
I'm legitimately baffled how you consider a player who flashed and burned out for 2-3 seasons is more deserving than someone who was a perennial or borderline all star for close to 18 years.
I don't think he should get in (but he will) with 3000 hits, but he'd be the first clean player (and Rose) not to. I really doubt he makes it to 3000 anyway, it would take 3 years. There aren't many active players left who project to have Beltran's career either. He is more Harold Baines than he is Eddie Murray though.
Thanks!
I am dubious he performs as well two years from now as he did this season - which was a step down from his usual. Everyone gets old.
That said, he may very well play 4-5 more years as a NL pinch hitter / bench guy and he may very well rack up the needed milestones via that route. He's always been durable, and he certainly seems like he wants to keep playing, so while I doubt he gets a 162 job next year, I think he can get 300 at bats for the next 3-5 years with some team who needs a 4th OF with some power, some speed, and some pedigree.
That's a great find!
But really, Reggie Sanders can go piss up a rope. Charging the mound during a perfect game should be an automatic DQ from the Hall.
I think he should. Whether he does or not is 50/50.
I think Beltran has been the best CF in baseball in the post Griffey days. Yea, Trout will surpass him. Soon, likely. In the last 50 years, there are 11 guys with 50 or more WAR. In that time span, Beltran is 2nd to only Griffey. He's not an accumulator, his Jaws is 8 all time for CF, dude averaged just under 6 WAR for an 8 year stretch. He shined in the postseason. He's one of the better 5 tool players ever.
He's not Trout, but he's one of the 3-4 best centerfielders in the last 1/2 century even if you don't like WAR.
Vizquel?
I think Beltran has been the best CF in baseball in the post Griffey days. Yea, Trout will surpass him. Soon, likely. In the last 50 years, there are 11 guys with 50 or more WAR. In that time span, Beltran is 2nd to only Griffey. He's not an accumulator, his Jaws is 8 all time for CF, dude averaged just under 6 WAR for an 8 year stretch. He shined in the postseason. He's one of the better 5 tool players ever.
He's not Trout, but he's one of the 3-4 best centerfielders in the last 1/2 century even if you don't like WAR.
This may be picking nits, but his last full season in CF was 2008. It may be more accurate to judge him against all outfielders, not just centerfielders.