There was a typo, I'm on my phone. Read the articles. He went back because he liked it and wanted to stay. It had nothing to do with business or who would draft him.knucklecup said:
Wicked Smart: Celtics select Marcus Smart with No. 6 pick
- Thread starter TheYellowDart5
- Start date
All good. Also on my phone so understand exactly what you're talking about. Reading now. Thank you for helping out and for not resorting to childish insults that only derail the task at hand.Cellar-Door said:
At least it was something wild and "not reasonable" that nobody could have thought of thus validating your vomiting all over the board today. Excellent judgment you have.knucklecup said:
Edited for the slow:
He returned because he saw value in going back for his sophomore year. Something I posited above which you called "not reasonable" even though it was the most obvious explanation all along.
What do you disagree with? I might be able to explain it better if you actually explain what you disagree with.amarshal2 said:
Something reasonable was described as "not reasonable". It is only reasonable that that description should be debated and dismissed. We can drop it now.
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From those two links, it sounds like Smart has personal leadership capacities as well. There also seems to be a near consensus that he was the best player available at #6, regardless of team need.
***
From those two links, it sounds like Smart has personal leadership capacities as well. There also seems to be a near consensus that he was the best player available at #6, regardless of team need.
IMHO Celtics fans will begin to appreciate Smart a little more after the first time he defends Dwayne Wade.
Yeah, this high in the draft it makes near zero sense to draft for need unless it's a complete tie between the two top options. And Smart's choice is the choice of an 18 year old. This is like the only thread where we might remotely expect an 18 year old to think like a microeconomist and not, well, a kid. Regardless of professional guidance from agents.Sprowl said:
Also, surely Rondo - strategist, Connect Four grandmaster, and likely future coach - knows all of this, both from Smart's and Ainge's perspectives. For similar reasons, he has every reason to test free agency.
Wait. Are you saying there are attractive women AND gorgeous weather in Indiana over the summer? I drove through yesterday. 85 degrees and humid. And nary an attractive lady to be found.knucklecup said:
Off-topic for sure. But just want to disabuse any delusions of grandeur when it comes to Indiana weather and women.
Congrats on making a lot of money. That's sooooo cool.
Ask James Michael McAdoo. From sure fire lottery pick to Undrafted Free Agent.Jed Zeppelin said:
Edit: Just caught up on thread. Didn't mean to get in the middle.
bowiac said:
Guys that are good shooters can add range, etc. But a weak college shooter will have trouble becoming a shooter.
Also the Tony Allen comparisons do this kid a disservice. He can really handle the ball and is a smart offensive player. Tony is a great athlete with a great motor, and a tough defender, but little offensive instinct. Despite my misgivings about his shooting this kid should be a much, much better offensive player than TA.
The way he bodies up defensively reminds me of a smaller version of Ron Artest. I love the way he plays D with his feet and upper body. That's the way Mr. Bates taught us at Bristol Eastern.Brickowski said:
Went to college in Bloomington, so probably have made that route before. Where's home?fairlee76 said:
And yes, Indiana can be pretty awful.
The debate over shooting as a skill or a talent has been broken out. Some of the comments addressed both Smart's potential and whether shooting can be learned, so you may want to repost those ideas in the other thread.
From Nate Silver, drafting sophomores turns out to be a good stategy in the NBA using the Celtics as an example:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/drafting-sophomores-is-a-smart-strategy-for-nba-teams/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/drafting-sophomores-is-a-smart-strategy-for-nba-teams/
Was Avery Bradley ever projected particularly high? He was a top college prospect, but I don't recall him showing up high on draft boards (I could be remembering wrong...).ALiveH said:
The different scouting services ranked Avery Bradley between #1-5 in his class coming out of high school, which means at that point in time he was projected to be a high lottery draft pick, just like the top-5 in the 2015 mock draft today are basically just the top-5 high school seniors.
Was this an NBA scouting service or one based off high school results? This is very important as Rick Brunson was once one of the best high school players in the country and MVP of the McDonald's game.......yet was never projected to be a star NBA player.ALiveH said:
Was that his projection while he was in high school though?
I actually went to Salem and was 5 years behind Brunson, so I actually saw him play and experienced the hype. As I remember it in high school he looked like the real deal, and his fatal flaw (lack of speed) was never really evident at the time. It started to surface once he hit college and there was a significant sample size against high quality competition. Lets also remember the guy got to the NBA and actually played a significant number of games there, so its not as if there was no chance he was ever going to be an NBA player whatsoever.
Scoonie Penn had a very similar story a few years later. He was virtually the opposite as Brunson, super fast but under sized and again this flaw really surfaced in college and it was clear he wasnt going to be able to completely compensate for it. But he also played in Europe and the D-league I believe as well, so he was knocking on the door.
I think you can tear apart the game of most high school players. But the same flaws that were ultimately found in Brunson were also there for Mark Jackson but Jackson somehow overcame them. Scoonie's comparison is probably Muggsy Bogues, or Spud Webb or Avery Johnson. And you have to be the best of the best of the scouts to tell the difference between a Mark Jackson and Rick Brunson in college. A really long winded way of saying, those high school to NBA projections really arent that accurate either.
I actually went to Salem and was 5 years behind Brunson, so I actually saw him play and experienced the hype. As I remember it in high school he looked like the real deal, and his fatal flaw (lack of speed) was never really evident at the time. It started to surface once he hit college and there was a significant sample size against high quality competition. Lets also remember the guy got to the NBA and actually played a significant number of games there, so its not as if there was no chance he was ever going to be an NBA player whatsoever.
Scoonie Penn had a very similar story a few years later. He was virtually the opposite as Brunson, super fast but under sized and again this flaw really surfaced in college and it was clear he wasnt going to be able to completely compensate for it. But he also played in Europe and the D-league I believe as well, so he was knocking on the door.
I think you can tear apart the game of most high school players. But the same flaws that were ultimately found in Brunson were also there for Mark Jackson but Jackson somehow overcame them. Scoonie's comparison is probably Muggsy Bogues, or Spud Webb or Avery Johnson. And you have to be the best of the best of the scouts to tell the difference between a Mark Jackson and Rick Brunson in college. A really long winded way of saying, those high school to NBA projections really arent that accurate either.
Brunson was a 6-1 PG who played below the rim and had a set shot. Never was he ever discussed as a top flight NBA prospect even back then because he was already a skilled player who didn't posses the upside (athleticism) of his skills catching up to his athleticism. One reason i recall Chaney loving him was because there was little risk of him jumping to the NBA early.wutang112878 said:
At the end of his senior year Avery was #1 ESPNU, #4 Rivals.com and #5 Scout.com. He also won the McD's AA dunk contest.
The current 2015 NBA Mock Drafts floating around basically have the top 5 spots going to the top 5 HS recruits.
Short of someone finding a year-ahead mock draft at the time Avery was graduating high school to see where he was mocked I don't think I could prove my point. But, I would think if someone was doing a mock draft at the time they'd have Avery going somewhere in the high lottery. Of course, we know he had a sub-par freshman year and his stock fell to mid 1st round.
The current 2015 NBA Mock Drafts floating around basically have the top 5 spots going to the top 5 HS recruits.
Short of someone finding a year-ahead mock draft at the time Avery was graduating high school to see where he was mocked I don't think I could prove my point. But, I would think if someone was doing a mock draft at the time they'd have Avery going somewhere in the high lottery. Of course, we know he had a sub-par freshman year and his stock fell to mid 1st round.
Avery Bradley was a highly touted high school recruit who had a disappointing freshman year and was dropped in the rankings. For instance, he was ranked by one service as the 4th shooting guard: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/DraftExpress-2010-NBA-Draft-Positional-Rankings-Released-3490/.
Of course, he was hampered by a low usage rate. I can't remember but I don't think the system at TX suited him.
His pluses were his jump shot (catch and shoot variety) and defense; his weaknesses were handle and finishing at the rim. Here's some more info: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=viewNewContent&search_app=forums
Of course, he was hampered by a low usage rate. I can't remember but I don't think the system at TX suited him.
His pluses were his jump shot (catch and shoot variety) and defense; his weaknesses were handle and finishing at the rim. Here's some more info: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=viewNewContent&search_app=forums
NBAdraft had him as a lottery pick as late as mid-June.bowiac said:
http://www.nbadraft.net/2010-extended-mock-draft
Draftexpress was lower on him, his high point was 13, but he spent time in 20s as well.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Avery-Bradley-5285/mock-draft-history/
HomeRunBaker said:
Brunson's listed at 6 4 (ESPN & BBref) that makes a big difference and he was an adequate 3pt shooter (30% in college & roughly that in the pros). Sure he played below the rim but so did Mark Jackson and Eric Snow and they made it. However, the lack of athleticism really wasnt as evident as you are making it out to be. When he was playing for Salem because he was head and shoulders the best player on the court, you really couldnt get a sense of what his physical limitations really were.
Your original contention that I disagreed with is that the high school prospect ranking is really different than the 'how would these players rank as NBA prospects'. I do agree that overall your criteria for college vs NBA success is going to be different. But my point with the Brunson and Scoonie stories is that there is so little we know about high school players that its almost impossible to really distinguish between prospect vs bust. Its virtually impossible to determine the difference between Kwame Brown & Dwight Howard. If you didnt know who they were and what they became and I showed you tape of Raymond Felton and Rick Brunson in their regular high school games, I really dont think you could tell me which would be the #5 pick and which would be undrafted.
I do not have this sense, and this was kind of what I was getting at when I doubted Bradley was ever a top pick. Even when Bradley was a top recruit, his scouting reports noted that he was a bit short for his position. This does not read like the scouting report of a high lottery pick:wutang112878 said:
That's why I was asking if I was remembering wrong, and Bradley ever showed up high in mock drafts.
Actually, I remember where I saw it and I am so glad I did! ESPN, of course, has their own high school ranking database and Bradley was ranked #1 in 2009 ahead of Derrick Favors, DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall!
Its actually really entertaining to go through a few years, because over half of their top 20 guys you never hear from again and their 'Grades' that began in 2010 are hysterical. Fabricio Melo was a 98!
Its actually really entertaining to go through a few years, because over half of their top 20 guys you never hear from again and their 'Grades' that began in 2010 are hysterical. Fabricio Melo was a 98!
Fab Melo had a pretty decent college career - I don't see anything so nuts there. They're ranking guys as college prospects, not as NBA prospects.
Wait what? He averaged less than 8pog and 6 rebounds per. And if his defensive role was anything more than "stand in the middle of the paint and put your hands up" his lack of actual basketball skill would have been very evident.
Steven Adams put up 7 and 6 while being a lottery pick the following year. He was the guy I wanted Ainge to move up for.....not Olynyk. You cannot grade college bigs on their numbers with the rules far different than the NBA. They are much more restrictive while playing with guards who aren't experienced enough to understand how to utilize their bigs skills.wutang112878 said:
Wait, you're using Mark Jackson and Eric Snow as examples of why Avery Bradley was thought to be a high lottery pick coming out of HS?wutang112878 said:
Scoonie struggled in our pro-am summer league agaiant bigger former D-1 guards, ex-BC guard Jamie Benton destroyed him both times they played and wasn't even the best PG on his team (Shawn Hood ex-Cleveland St guard was). There wasn't a chance in hell he was an NBA player no more than someone like Bryce Cotton is.
HomeRunBaker said:
I'm using Mark Jackson and Eric Snow as example why a guy you said was never considered an NBA prospect actually had some potential coming out of high school because some major flaws were hidden and guys like him (Jackson and Snow) did have significant NBA careers. My overall point that the ranking when players are coming out of high school is really an inexact science.
If I said that it was a typo. What I said was that a "Top-5 HS ranking" is not the same thing as a projected Top-5 draft pick. In today's AAU world where these kids have competed against each other for many years the HS ranking is likely fairly accurate......but again this is different than projecting NBA skillset with their size, length and athleticism being a much larger factor.wutang112878 said:
Stand in the middle and put your hands up is a fine defensive role when you're his size. He was honestly pretty good. His block rate was insane, he finished around the rim fine. Most Syracuse fans wouldn't consider him a bust. He wasn't a huge star, but he was a valuable player.wutang112878 said:
Judging HS players in greater Boston is very tricky, but lots of us knew Brunson and Penn were fringe NBA guys at best. To go back a few years, Dana Barros and Rumeal Robinson were significantly better athletes than the two Salem kids. They not only dominated but also did things that just made your jaw hit the floor.
Brunson did fantastic by hanging around the league for so long. I always assumed he must have been a great character guy.
Brunson did fantastic by hanging around the league for so long. I always assumed he must have been a great character guy.
Smart's agent is former Duke scrub/superstar Lee Melchionni
http://m.lancasteronline.com/sports/basketball/basketball-still-melchionni-s-business/article_f4a85d66-0400-11e4-a2ab-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm
http://m.lancasteronline.com/sports/basketball/basketball-still-melchionni-s-business/article_f4a85d66-0400-11e4-a2ab-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm
Marcus Smart is getting pretty rave reviews for his play against team USA as a member of USA Select.
He and Oladipo also apparently destroyed a backcourt of Wall and Beal in a scrimmage.
He and Oladipo also apparently destroyed a backcourt of Wall and Beal in a scrimmage.
More rave reviews for Smart.....
Celtics rookie Marcus Smart really opening eyes as member of Select Team in scrimmages vs Team USA. Going up against Kyrie, Rose, Wall, etc.
— Sam Amico (@SamAmicoFSO) July 30, 2014
Marcus Smart is lighting it up. Just hit three consecutive 3s at #USAmbb minicamp
— Matt Gibson (@DimeMatt) July 29, 2014
Marcus Smart just hit a NBA 3-pointer without hesitation at Team USA camp so that's scary.
— Tim Cato (@tim_cato) July 29, 2014
One thing Marcus Smart is excellent at is on ball defense. Putting the straps on Kyrie currently
— P. (@POLO_DRO) July 29, 2014
Marcus smart ballin in this scrimmage cuffing john wall
— unknown (@_eeus) July 29, 2014
Rave reviews continue to pour in from Vegas from coaches in attendance on Marcus Smart & Victor Oladipo. Both impressive on practice squad.
— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) July 30, 2014
Celtics rookie Marcus Smart really opening eyes as member of Select Team in scrimmages vs Team USA. Going up against Kyrie, Rose, Wall, etc.
— Sam Amico (@SamAmicoFSO) July 30, 2014
Marcus Smart is lighting it up. Just hit three consecutive 3s at #USAmbb minicamp
— Matt Gibson (@DimeMatt) July 29, 2014
Marcus Smart just hit a NBA 3-pointer without hesitation at Team USA camp so that's scary.
— Tim Cato (@tim_cato) July 29, 2014
One thing Marcus Smart is excellent at is on ball defense. Putting the straps on Kyrie currently
— P. (@POLO_DRO) July 29, 2014
Marcus smart ballin in this scrimmage cuffing john wall
— unknown (@_eeus) July 29, 2014
Rave reviews continue to pour in from Vegas from coaches in attendance on Marcus Smart & Victor Oladipo. Both impressive on practice squad.
— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) July 30, 2014
He's not who I would have picked, but it's hard to be upset about picking a guy who has the potential to be a fantastic two way player and a top player at his position when you are drafting outside of the top 5.
The fact that he's hitting 3's is nice to hear. If he can develop a good outside stroke it will really help him in the pick and roll.
The fact that he's hitting 3's is nice to hear. If he can develop a good outside stroke it will really help him in the pick and roll.
MillarTime said:
Guy from Massive compiles some different observations here: http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2014/07/marcus_smart_of_boston_celtics_1.html
This is awesome. Getting excited about summer league play is foolish and that's generally the only news we get this time of year. But holding your own against some great players, all I can say is wow and Danny clearly made the best of a crappy situation at 6 (crappy in the sense that our expectations prior to the lottery were very high)
I gotta admit this kid is growing on me.
http://nesn.com/2014/11/celtics-rookie-marcus-smart-fulfills-childhood-promise-buys-mom-house/
He probably saved a ton by using his own bricks (sorry I couldn't resist).
http://nesn.com/2014/11/celtics-rookie-marcus-smart-fulfills-childhood-promise-buys-mom-house/
He probably saved a ton by using his own bricks (sorry I couldn't resist).
x-rays were negative, no word on the MRI. Best case is that he misses 2 weeks with a bad sprain.
Bulpett reported the 2 week thing too and he's out of his mind. Smart was grabbing above his ankle leading me to believe he either broke his fibula or the best case torn ligaments above his ankle (the dreaded high ankle sprain). Only guessing of course but I'd be shocked to see Smart in the next 4 weeks even if it's the best case scenario.Brickowski said:
Very disappointing, because Smart clearly has some talent and even more clearly has a lot of learning by experience ahead of him. (Right now he's basically a "3 and D" guy who isn't good at the "3" part.) This injury puts the brakes on his development for a good long while.