Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

BS_SoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2005
2,230
Merrimack Valley
I was a huge huge fan of this show at the start, but I really hope for the sake of all of our sanity that the Patriots win at least one game in the playoffs so these guys can avoid talking baseball for at least another week. Ever since the day the Sox signed Lackey, which I thought was a fantastic show where they rightfully praised the Red Sox for making a bold an unexpected move, this show has been absolutely BRUTAL. Between Felger's harping on Moss for weeks and Mazz's constant reminder that the Red Sox could have signed Teixeira, without offering an ounce of proof to back up this sentiment, it has been essentially unlistenable. I went probably 8 straight weeks without tuning into the Big Show except on commercials, and now, shockingly, I find myself tuning in there for a more rational approach to several topics.
 

Commander Shears

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2005
1,019
QUOTE (smastroyin @ Jan 7 2010, 06:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2758564
Don't forget Felger saying that they were cheap, what with their second highest payroll in the league and highest payroll ever paid by a team other than the Yankees.

You can argue that they are overpaying a lot of chaff, you can argue that they are buying the wrong grain of wheat, but you can't say they are cheap. Of course, he finished it by comparing them to the Bruins which is pretty funny because that Bruins stigma still hangs around even though they have spent to the cap almost every single year since it was implemented.

I don't know when you were listening, but I must have heard Felger go out of his way about ten times to specifically say that the Red Sox are not cheap - that they are willing to overpay for mediocre players but not great ones and that this philosophy eventually results in lousy rosters. (He has said the same thing about the Patriots with regards to not wanting to overpay Asante Samuel, but then they wasted money on his replacements and other stiffs.) That they are not cheap is what prevents him from understanding some of their decisions.
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
QUOTE (Commander Shears @ Jan 7 2010, 07:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2758636
I don't know when you were listening, but I must have heard Felger go out of his way about ten times to specifically say that the Red Sox are not cheap - that they are willing to overpay for mediocre players but not great ones and that this philosophy eventually results in lousy rosters. (He has said the same thing about the Patriots with regards to not wanting to overpay Asante Samuel, but then they wasted money on his replacements and other stiffs.) That they are not cheap is what prevents him from understanding some of their decisions.


Yes, I heard that too.

His point is that the Red Sox could have signed Lackey and Bay for roughly the same amount of money that they've spent on plan "B's." He said that the Red Sox don't want to give out contracts unless it's on their perfect terms, which he thinks will prohibit them from landing great players, because you can never sign truly great players on your perfect terms.

Really, I haven't found Felger all that offensive this week. It's been Mazz who's repeated the same 3 talking points. And the presence of Shaughnessy today put me through the roof.
 

Terras

Says he wants a Revolution
SoSH Member
Jun 25, 2007
2,398
Because what was hilarious to me about Dennis and Callahan at 6AM when I was a kid has become disgusting and pathetic now that I have a brain, I very rarely listen to sports radio anymore. I've heard a lot about 98.5 since it started, namely around here, so I figured I'd give it a listen today. After half an hour of Felger, Mazz, and that hack "Danny" Shaughnessey bashing UZR and the thinking man's game, I turned it off.

I came here to say something about it, but find myself with a smile on my face after reading the last two pages of people torching them for exactly what pissed me off this afternoon.

Thank you, all of you. You make me feel all fuzzy inside.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 7 2010, 07:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2758651
Yes, I heard that too.

His point is that the Red Sox could have signed Lackey and Bay for roughly the same amount of money that they've spent on plan "B's." He said that the Red Sox don't want to give out contracts unless it's on their perfect terms, which he thinks will prohibit them from landing great players, because you can never sign truly great players on your perfect terms.

Really, I haven't found Felger all that offensive this week. It's been Mazz who's repeated the same 3 talking points. And the presence of Shaughnessy today put me through the roof.


Later in the show they were talking about defense being cheap and that the Red Sox talking about the value of defense is their spin job for failing to land Holliday or Bay. Maybe Felger just jumped on Tony's bandwagon at that point. But he did rant about how the Sox were never going to get any stars to come to Boston because they don't pay enough or for enough years.
 

weeba

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
3,537
Lynn, MA
QUOTE (smastroyin @ Jan 8 2010, 08:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2759760
Later in the show they were talking about defense being cheap and that the Red Sox talking about the value of defense is their spin job for failing to land Holliday or Bay. Maybe Felger just jumped on Tony's bandwagon at that point. But he did rant about how the Sox were never going to get any stars to come to Boston because they don't pay enough or for enough years.


Mazz also harped on for "how much you spent on Penny, Smoltz and Saito you could have had Texiera".

Granted, he never pointed out that if we DID get Tex, we'd then need to get 2 starters and a late reliever. Which would ADD money to the payroll, beyond what just Tex cost.
 

wutang112878

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2007
6,066
QUOTE (weeba @ Jan 8 2010, 10:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2759938
Mazz also harped on for "how much you spent on Penny, Smoltz and Saito you could have had Texiera".

Granted, he never pointed out that if we DID get Tex, we'd then need to get 2 starters and a late reliever. Which would ADD money to the payroll, beyond what just Tex cost.


Wow, that claim is ridiculous, apples and oranges. If I recall correctly their base salaries were $5.5 for Smoltz, $5 for Penny, and $2.5 for Saito, for a total of $13M, while the rest of their contracts were incentive based, and they were all essentially 1 year deals [except for Saito who had a reasonable buy out]. So to compare 3 one year deals with $13M guranteed to 1 eight year deal with $180M guranteed is a freaking joke.

Its funny, what probably really cost them Tex was Lowell, because signing Tex meant needing to find a way to move/eat Lowell's 10M. Meanwhile it seems the Lowell contract is one they would have liked because it gave enough years and dollars to the player
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
9,963
Boston, MA
Unintended thread hijack: I don't know what the conventional wisdom is here on SOSH, but I happen to agree with Mazz that the sox elected not to sign Tex because they didn't value him over a certain $$$ amount. I do not believe, for one minute, that it was always a foregone conclusion that he was signing with the Yankees.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
QUOTE (Bleedred @ Jan 8 2010, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760130
Unintended thread hijack: I don't know what the conventional wisdom is here on SOSH, but I happen to agree with Mazz that the sox elected not to sign Tex because they didn't value him over a certain $$$ amount. I do not believe, for one minute, that it was always a foregone conclusion that he was signing with the Yankees.


I do. Let's suppose Lowell's money was not an issue and the Sox offered $200 million - Cashman just adds that additional $20 million to his offer, and Tex still gets to live his childhood dream of wearing pinstripes.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,541
I can't remember where I read this, but after the 08 season, Cashman told the Steinbrenners that even if the Yankees signed Sabathia and Burnett that if the Sox signed Teixeira that they were going to beat the Yankees every year for the next five years. One of the Steinbrenners told Cashman that money was no object and to make sure that New York gets Tex, no matter what.

It would not surprise me at all if Boras knew that. So whatever figure the Sox threw on the table, the Yankees were going to beat it. And after Henry, Luccino and Epstein went to Dallas for the dog-and-pony show last week they knew it too. Which is why Henry sent out that middle-of-the-night email crying about the Yankees.

There was no way that the Red Sox were going to beat the Yankees for this one. I don't understand why Tony Mazz can't get it through his thick skull.
 
QUOTE (JimD @ Jan 8 2010, 10:07 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760328
I do. Let's suppose Lowell's money was not an issue and the Sox offered $200 million - Cashman just adds that additional $20 million to his offer, and Tex still gets to live his childhood dream of wearing pinstripes.


I agree with this. The Yankees had to get Teixeira unless they wanted Nick Swisher to be their full time 1B. But regardless of what you believe or don't believe, Mazz' argument was ridiculous (that the Smoltz, Penny, and Saito deals essentially equaled Teixeira)- and it's the same as Felger's yesterday. Felger kept saying, "with the money they used to sign Beltre and Cameron (and what they're paying Hall), they could have easily have signed Bay. Why not sign Bay AND Lackey...the money would be the same!". When a caller pointed out that Bay's deal was obviously a long term deal and that the money could handcuff them from signing Lee, Crawford, Mauer, an extension for Beckett next year, Felger responded with "I don't want to hear about their money problems". That of course led him into the rant about how the Yankees aren't afraid to sign guys long term that may not work out (he used CC as an example) and that those are the things the Sox and Yankees should be doing. When someone else pointed out that the Yankees spent $245 Million last year including the payroll and luxury tax and that Boston isn't going to do that, Shaugnessy yelled, "C'mon, you're better than that. Don't let that be an excuse"...???
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,016
Chelmsford, MA
I think Shaughnessy is the worst possible 3rd wheel on a show with these two. He's the most given to the outrageous blowhardism of the three, and more than willing to support the dumb points of each of them. I think they're at their best when they don't agree and use their generally smart minds to go at one another, or when they get the 3rd guy in who questions them a bit and doesn't just agree with them. Felger is tantalizing sometimes in that he's so willing to think outside of the box, but then he says all the dumb things about the Sox in the midst of possibly making a good point (i.e. is it better to get good value on good players or is that not a winning formula) and Mazz just isn't there to counterpoint him because he more or less believes similar things for different reasons.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
These guys are unbelievable – eighteen months ago, they probably had no idea who Jason Bay was, and now it’s a federal crime that Theo let him walk.

Suppose the Sox had never traded Manny eighteen months ago and he was just now hitting free agency – if Theo went out and signed Bay to replace him, guys like Mazz and Shank would be crucifying the team. Bay would be the new Jose Offerman to these guys.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,541
Jim, it's like that 99% of the time in this town. The guy who got traded/left via free agency/lost his job always is a Hall of Famer and the new guy automatically sucks.

The only person that it didn't happen to (that I can remember) was Manny. When he came here, he was a God and when he left he was a bum. But Pedro, Brady, etc. That's just the way it is.
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
I don't want to go back. I really don't want to go back.

I don't want to go back to "Steve from Fall River," I don't want to go back to 4 people shouting at eachother, I don't want to go back to amateur sounding "comedy bits."

But this week has made me think about it. I like Felger, I enjoy listening to him. I think I like this show. I have had more fun listening to this show than I can ever remember listening to "The Big Show."

But the past 5 days have been almost unbearable. Between Mazz's rantings on Teixeira and the midseason physical on Jason Bay and Felger bringing up Randy Moss at every turn (he somehow found a way to tie Phil Kessel to Moss today), this show is growing really old really fast.

I'm going to keep listening next week and maybe the week after. I want to keep listening. But boy, they're making it awfully hard right now. And that's sad.
 

LMontro

New Member
Aug 4, 2007
667
Live Free or Die
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 8 2010, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760755
I don't want to go back. I really don't want to go back.

I don't want to go back to "Steve from Fall River," I don't want to go back to 4 people shouting at eachother, I don't want to go back to amateur sounding "comedy bits."

But this week has made me think about it. I like Felger, I enjoy listening to him. I think I like this show. I have had more fun listening to this show than I can ever remember listening to "The Big Show."

But the past 5 days have been almost unbearable. Between Mazz's rantings on Teixeira and the midseason physical on Jason Bay and Felger bringing up Randy Moss at every turn (he somehow found a way to tie Phil Kessel to Moss today), this show is growing really old really fast.

I'm going to keep listening next week and maybe the week after. I want to keep listening. But boy, they're making it awfully hard right now. And that's sad.


I am feeling the same way. I still am pro-Felger but I have always hated Mazz (who is always right and likes to tell you) and this show keeps re-hashing the same shit over and over. When they were going over what the Pats' record "should" be for what seems like the 20th time this season, I opted to turn the radio off rather than switch to EEI. I am going to hang in there with them but if this is how its going to be, along with a dead zone in the middle of the day, well 98.5 is going to be hurting. I had high hopes to start but I am having doubts.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 8 2010, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760755
I don't want to go back. I really don't want to go back.

I don't want to go back to "Steve from Fall River," I don't want to go back to 4 people shouting at eachother, I don't want to go back to amateur sounding "comedy bits."

But this week has made me think about it. I like Felger, I enjoy listening to him. I think I like this show. I have had more fun listening to this show than I can ever remember listening to "The Big Show."

But the past 5 days have been almost unbearable. Between Mazz's rantings on Teixeira and the midseason physical on Jason Bay and Felger bringing up Randy Moss at every turn (he somehow found a way to tie Phil Kessel to Moss today), this show is growing really old really fast.

I'm going to keep listening next week and maybe the week after. I want to keep listening. But boy, they're making it awfully hard right now. And that's sad.


I haven't had nearly the adverse reaction to this week than others, but being the hater that I am, I'm much more tolerant of negativity. I don't like baseball talk in general, so I didn't really like this week, but it seemed an odd topic for this time of year. Why are they harping on Teixeira this week (even if I agree with it)? Why do I give a flying fuck about a physical Jason Bay had in July when its January 9th? It was just boring rather than offensive or stupid. I don't want boring matchups of the Pats game hammered down my throat all week like EEI does, but you can at least talk about it a bit. How about talking speculating about Kevin Garnett's knee...............thats probably the biggest non Pats story in Boston right now.

Not a good week of radio for sure, but still light years better than the Pom Poms over at EEI.
 

judyb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
4,444
Wilmington MA
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 8 2010, 05:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760790
I haven't had nearly the adverse reaction to this week than others, but being the hater that I am, I'm much more tolerant of negativity. I don't like baseball talk in general, so I didn't really like this week, but it seemed an odd topic for this time of year. Why are they harping on Teixeira this week (even if I agree with it)? Why do I give a flying fuck about a physical Jason Bay had in July when its January 9th? It was just boring rather than offensive or stupid. I don't want boring matchups of the Pats game hammered down my throat all week like EEI does, but you can at least talk about it a bit. How about talking speculating about Kevin Garnett's knee...............thats probably the biggest non Pats story in Boston right now.

Not a good week of radio for sure, but still light years better than the Pom Poms over at EEI.

No, it's not better at all. It's the same thing, only backwards. Instead of "the team's always right", it's "the team's always wrong". Just stick the word "not" into the conversation 100 times and it's identical.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 8 2010, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760755
I don't want to go back. I really don't want to go back.

I don't want to go back to "Steve from Fall River," I don't want to go back to 4 people shouting at eachother, I don't want to go back to amateur sounding "comedy bits."

But this week has made me think about it. I like Felger, I enjoy listening to him. I think I like this show. I have had more fun listening to this show than I can ever remember listening to "The Big Show."

But the past 5 days have been almost unbearable. Between Mazz's rantings on Teixeira and the midseason physical on Jason Bay and Felger bringing up Randy Moss at every turn (he somehow found a way to tie Phil Kessel to Moss today), this show is growing really old really fast.

I'm going to keep listening next week and maybe the week after. I want to keep listening. But boy, they're making it awfully hard right now. And that's sad.


Today was the first day since they've been on I didn't listen to one second on my commute home. This week has been awful culminating in having Shank on.

With Mazz still carping on Teixeira, Felger saying the Sox have changed their ways of grinding out pitchers with long counts by going from Bay to Cameron. Cameron sees more pitches per AB than Bay and of their expected starting 9, only Beltre and Ellsbury saw less pitches per AB than average last year, and Jacoby is barely below. Don't ever let facts get in the way Michael.

But Shaughnessy, ugh. Why add this guy? How does he keep getting work? I sent him an email this week on his predictable New England/Baltimore dreck. He says in that article, Michael Oher was drafted with a pick Baltimore acquired from the Patriots, who got the 26th pick and a 5th rounder. Edge Baltimore. So I asked him, rather than say the Pats got these two picks, how about saying what they got with the two picks. They ended up through two more trades with those picks trading the Oher pick for Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and a 2nd round pick this coming year. I asked wouldn't it be more fair to give all the information rather than just say the Pats got two nameless, faceless picks? Response:sorry to disappoint. Guess I'll take that as a no. Keep it on autopilot Dan! No reason to do five minutes of research.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (judyb @ Jan 8 2010, 05:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760805
No, it's not better at all. It's the same thing, only backwards. Instead of "the team's always right", it's "the team's always wrong". Just stick the word "not" into the conversation 100 times and it's identical.


I totally totally disagree. They have strong opinions but they are thought out and are willing to admit when they are wrong. In general this show is a billion times better........they don't yell at each other or callers, they don't talk over each other, they're a hundred times funnier, the topics are varied and MUCH deeper, ect ect ect.

I'm not gonna let a week of stale shows ruin this show for me. No show is gonna be interesting and fun all the time........thats why there are a billion other channels on the radio.
 

judyb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
4,444
Wilmington MA
If you enjoy it, great. I just feel like they do nothing but lecture me that I'm supposed to relate to my favorite teams like a spoiled brat whose mommy won't buy me candy. But it's not even just them, just that lately it's what I hear every time I turn their show on.
 
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 8 2010, 01:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760755
I don't want to go back. I really don't want to go back.

I don't want to go back to "Steve from Fall River," I don't want to go back to 4 people shouting at eachother, I don't want to go back to amateur sounding "comedy bits."

But this week has made me think about it. I like Felger, I enjoy listening to him. I think I like this show. I have had more fun listening to this show than I can ever remember listening to "The Big Show."

But the past 5 days have been almost unbearable. Between Mazz's rantings on Teixeira and the midseason physical on Jason Bay and Felger bringing up Randy Moss at every turn (he somehow found a way to tie Phil Kessel to Moss today), this show is growing really old really fast.

I'm going to keep listening next week and maybe the week after. I want to keep listening. But boy, they're making it awfully hard right now. And that's sad.


Couldn't have said it better myself. I was thrilled with the show early on but the past couple of weeks have been brutal. Same old "they shoulda got Teixeira!...Mike Cameron sucks - I know I'm a Brewer fan and I've seen him play before...Randy Moss isn't a football player...they shoulda signed Bay, he proved he could play in Boston! UZR is for teams like the Twins who don't have money...". Its been awful. I'm all for the contrarian point of view but only if it is thought out and backed up by facts. Lately these two have been doing nothing but bitching and bitching and bitching - and half their arguments don't even make sense. I love Felger but he needs someone to reign him in from time to time and Mazz isn't that guy. He just sounds like a whiny girl in the backround who yells "yeah!" everytime Felger goes off on one of his rants. And Shaugnessy? Who had the brilliant idea to include this fuckhead?

I've actually been switching back to EEI from time to time during this slot and if Felger and Mazz keep it up, I think I'm going back to the Big Blowhard full time (assuming he doesn't have Larry Johnson or Butch Stearns sitting in). It sucks too, 'cause I really was excited early on.
 

HomeBrew1901

Has Season 1 of "Manimal" on Blu Ray
SoSH Member
QUOTE (BannedbyNYYFans.com @ Jan 8 2010, 07:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760923
Couldn't have said it better myself. I was thrilled with the show early on but the past couple of weeks have been brutal. Same old "they shoulda got Teixeira!...Mike Cameron sucks - I know I'm a Brewer fan and I've seen him play before...Randy Moss isn't a football player...they shoulda signed Bay, he proved he could play in Boston! UZR is for teams like the Twins who don't have money...". Its been awful. I'm all for the contrarian point of view but only if it is thought out and backed up by facts. Lately these two have been doing nothing but bitching and bitching and bitching - and half their arguments don't even make sense. I love Felger but he needs someone to reign him in from time to time and Mazz isn't that guy. He just sounds like a whiny girl in the backround who yells "yeah!" everytime Felger goes off on one of his rants. And Shaugnessy? Who had the brilliant idea to include this fuckhead?

I've actually been switching back to EEI from time to time during this slot and if Felger and Mazz keep it up, I think I'm going back to the Big Blowhard full time (assuming he doesn't have Larry Johnson or Butch Stearns sitting in). It sucks too, 'cause I really was excited early on.

Count me in among the folks ready to go back to the Big Show. With my new job I now commute from 5:10 to 5:45 or so and can't listen during the day. 3 of the 4 days I have tuned into the Big Show because (and it pains me to say this) it was by far better than Felger and Mazz. Monday I enjoyed the interview with BB, Tuesday I didn't listen, Wednesday I worked late and listened to DA, Thursday the Big Show had Vic Carruci which was great, and today was OK but better than F&M.

The only show that has won me over completely is Toucher and Rich in the morning. I've switched over to D&C during commercials but they always remind me why I don't listen to them.
 

SoundsofIglesias

New Member
Oct 26, 2009
94
QUOTE (Soxbrained @ Jan 7 2010, 03:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2758238
Yeah. As soon as Tony Mass started going on Texeira again I flipped the station and put on a CD. That stuff does get tiring.


Mazz / Felger actually said the Red Sox have spent a lot of $$ this offseason, just not on good players. Mazz then adds that the reasoning for that is that when it comes to going the extra mile to spend for a good player, the Red Sox just won't take the risk.

Um, Tony, they signed a 31 year-old pitcher with some previous elbow problems to a 5 year deal. I would call that taking a risk to sign a good player.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 8 2010, 06:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2760862
They have strong opinions but they are thought out and are willing to admit when they are wrong.


Really?

I guess I'm listening to different segments or something. Mazz and Felger are not stupid like Smerlas/Johnson/insertWEEIrube. But they have - likely from covering nothing but sports for years - underdeveloped analytical minds. They seldom see the big picture or some possible contradictions between their opinions; I know they need to turn the negativity dial up to get listeners, but there's something horribly wrong about forcing it or letting it dominate even remotely intelligent discourse.

We don't need, for example, a Jaworski or Mayock-like breakdown of Brady's tendency to look off the safety on play action passes, but these guys quite literally cannot get past their own preconceived slant on a player or team. Their 'strong' opinions are vague enough to escape serious attention and often play on the worst cognitive biases of most fans (e.g. Moss is a lazy malcontent that doesn't produce....or, the Red Sox are cheap and/or love mediocre players). I.e., you could NEVER convince Felger Moss is a hard-working, great player because there's no 'stat' to prove it; he's free to keep on hating Moss under the premise that some two-bit media reports intermittently imply it or that he quit in Oakland.

Like I said, I don't think the choice is between 'Pom Poms' and 'Attack!!!!111', or, similarly, between boring, cold analysis and ridiculously irrational, ill-conceived radio blather. I like a mix, and Felger/Mazz (shit, 98.5 in general) doesn't provide that; this certainly isn't a defense of WEEI, BTW.

I also think it's important to remember something very important: positive spin outweighs negative spin in Boston sports talk because the teams have been generally successful. After all, it's just as disingenuous and misguided to actively seek for reasons to attack Theo Epstein and Bill Belichick (despite the combined 5 titles in 10 seasons) as it is to nominate them for sainthood. Guys like Mazz seemingly don't grasp this point and proceed to chalk it up to rampant homerism. It's almost infuriating to listen to; they're negative for the sake of it.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (Mystic Merlin @ Jan 9 2010, 10:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2761289
Really?

I guess I'm listening to different segments or something. Mazz and Felger are not stupid like Smerlas/Johnson/insertWEEIrube. But they have - likely from covering nothing but sports for years - underdeveloped analytical minds. They seldom see the big picture or some possible contradictions between their opinions; I know they need to turn the negativity dial up to get listeners, but there's something horribly wrong about forcing it or letting it dominate even remotely intelligent discourse.

We don't need, for example, a Jaworski or Mayock-like breakdown of Brady's tendency to look off the safety on play action passes, but these guys quite literally cannot get past their own preconceived slant on a player or team. Their 'strong' opinions are vague enough to escape serious attention and often play on the worst cognitive biases of most fans (e.g. Moss is a lazy malcontent that doesn't produce....or, the Red Sox are cheap and/or love mediocre players). I.e., you could NEVER convince Felger Moss is a hard-working, great player because there's no 'stat' to prove it; he's free to keep on hating Moss under the premise that some two-bit media reports intermittently imply it or that he quit in Oakland.

Like I said, I don't think the choice is between 'Pom Poms' and 'Attack!!!!111', or, similarly, between boring, cold analysis and ridiculously irrational, ill-conceived radio blather. I like a mix, and Felger/Mazz (shit, 98.5 in general) doesn't provide that; this certainly isn't a defense of WEEI, BTW.

I also think it's important to remember something very important: positive spin outweighs negative spin in Boston sports talk because the teams have been generally successful. After all, it's just as disingenuous and misguided to actively seek for reasons to attack Theo Epstein and Bill Belichick (despite the combined 5 titles in 10 seasons) as it is to nominate them for sainthood. Guys like Mazz seemingly don't grasp this point and proceed to chalk it up to rampant homerism. It's almost infuriating to listen to; they're negative for the sake of it.



How is their take on Boston Sports any different than Mike and The Mad Dog (best sports radio of all time) with regards to the New York teams? I think its amazingly similar..........and at least its not "schtick". (Felger is from Wisconson.....he comes across as a sports fan from Wisconson.....if he tried to come across as a Boston Sports fan he would be doing "schtick" like EEI does) It will be interesting to see how the shows goes moving forward.....M&M pissed off half their listenership on a daily basis, but the show was quality. People knew that and its why they continued to listen. I would argue the worst offense last week was the show lacked quality......not that it was "negative".

The bottom line..........this show is here to stay and I couldn't be happier about it.
 

Sparky Lyle

Ask me about my nightstick
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2002
3,515
Boston, Massachusetts
QUOTE (SoundsofIglesias @ Jan 8 2010, 10:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2761065
Mazz / Felger actually said the Red Sox have spent a lot of $$ this offseason, just not on good players. Mazz then adds that the reasoning for that is that when it comes to going the extra mile to spend for a good player, the Red Sox just won't take the risk.

Um, Tony, they signed a 31 year-old pitcher with some previous elbow problems to a 5 year deal. I would call that taking a risk to sign a good player.




You haven't been listening closely then. And I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, even though it sounds that way. You see, Mazz recognizes this and can't understand why the Sox balked at signing Bay long term because of a perceived injury to Bay but signed Lackey long term despite his elbow problems. He points out that the Sox signed Drew long term and to big bucks but with language in the contract that protected the team should Drew suffer a recurrence of a previous shoulder injury. He contends, and I agree with him, that the Sox should have signed Bay regardless. They'll need his bat. Though I love the show, he is becoming borish and incessant with this point. Move on.
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
QUOTE (Sparky Lyle @ Jan 9 2010, 01:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2761399
You haven't been listening closely then. And I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, even though it sounds that way. You see, Mazz recognizes this and can't understand why the Sox balked at signing Bay long term because of a perceived injury to Bay but signed Lackey long term despite his elbow problems. He points out that the Sox signed Drew long term and to big bucks but with language in the contract that protected the team should Drew suffer a recurrence of a previous shoulder injury. He contends, and I agree with him, that the Sox should have signed Bay regardless. They'll need his bat. Though I love the show, he is becoming borish and incessant with this point. Move on.


That was the biggest thing about this week. Not that I necessarily disagreed with the root of a lot of the arguments. But I thought the arguments were greatly embellished, and both hosts (especially Mazz) just repeated the same old points. They may have just done the show live on Monday, and played the same tape throughout the week while adding in a recording with Shaughnessy mixed in, because that's what it sounded like.

It was just very dull and very disappointing.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 9 2010, 12:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2761346
How is their take on Boston Sports any different than Mike and The Mad Dog (best sports radio of all time) with regards to the New York teams? I think its amazingly similar..........and at least its not "schtick". (Felger is from Wisconson.....he comes across as a sports fan from Wisconson.....if he tried to come across as a Boston Sports fan he would be doing "schtick" like EEI does) It will be interesting to see how the shows goes moving forward.....M&M pissed off half their listenership on a daily basis, but the show was quality. People knew that and its why they continued to listen. I would argue the worst offense last week was the show lacked quality......not that it was "negative".

The bottom line..........this show is here to stay and I couldn't be happier about it.


Fair enough.

But, man, they are not 'Mike and the Mad Dog.'

I'm sorry, I cannot even remotely begin to see that comparison, beyond their adversarial relationship with a large portion of the home fanbase. M&MD was legendary sports radio; I find the idea that Felger and Mazz have that potential in their wildest dreams to be totally laughable.
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
Big week for the show...let's face it, this kind of loss often produces the most captivating form of talk radio (sadly).

But if we're treated to "I told you about Moss" from Felger and "Rome is burning" from Mazz, then this may be it.

Both things, especially the Moss issue, should be talked about. But I want new and different things brought up too. We'll see...I hope for a good week of radio.
 

shawnrbu

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
39,690
The Land of Fist Pumps
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 10 2010, 05:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765474
But if we're treated to "I told you about Moss" from Felger


over/under on "safety over the top" references will be 27. Seriously, I think these guys should be given a lot of rope to rip this team tomorrow. It's justified after this performance today. If Felger blames this loss on the Seymour trade or Tony tries to place blame on 4th and 2, then I will drive off the road.
 

HomeBrew1901

Has Season 1 of "Manimal" on Blu Ray
SoSH Member
QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jan 10 2010, 06:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765527
over/under on "safety over the top" references will be 27. Seriously, I think these guys should be given a lot of rope to rip this team tomorrow. It's justified after this performance today. If Felger blames this loss on the Seymour trade or Tony tries to place blame on 4th and 2, then I will drive off the road.

Shawn I think it depends on how they approach it. There were a ton of negatives about this game today, if F&M fall back on their same old arguments over the last two weeks then I am officially done with the show until baseball season. It's time for them to sink or swim.
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
QUOTE (HomeBrew1901 @ Jan 10 2010, 06:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765540
Shawn I think it depends on how they approach it. There were a ton of negatives about this game today, if F&M fall back on their same old arguments over the last two weeks then I am officially done with the show until baseball season. It's time for them to sink or swim.


That's the direction I'm going in.

If the same talking points are repeated all week, then I agree, that will be close to being it.

But I'm holding out faith that this week will drag me back in...I think the basis is there for great discussion.
 
"Randy Moss is not a football player". I'm banking on this one. But all the above comments are correct. They should bash the team but I hope that they at least TRY to be original. There are plenty of directions to go in:

- Mayo didn't play well and had a very average season - was he ever healthy?
- Can/Will they bring in a co-ordinator on either side of the ball that can make a difference?
- Special teams was awful
- What realistic personel need do you specifically address first in the offseason?
- Is the young defense just young or are they not that good?

There are a million issues/topics to run with...but I have a feeling it will be a ton of "Moss sucks" and "the Patriots are cheap" type stuff they say EVERY week.
 

SoundsofIglesias

New Member
Oct 26, 2009
94
QUOTE (BS_SoxFan @ Jan 10 2010, 06:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765568
Mazz will likely blame the loss on the Red Sox not signing Teixeira. THEY COULD HAVE HAD HIM!



:rolling:

Good one.

Although there's still time for Mazz to go back to that mysterious thing that happened mid-season between Bay and the Red Sox as also creating a cloud over Gillette Stadium...
 

shawnrbu

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
39,690
The Land of Fist Pumps
QUOTE (BannedbyNYYFans.com @ Jan 10 2010, 08:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765917
"Randy Moss is not a football player". I'm banking on this one.


That's the point Felger hammered home on his Sunday night show tonight. They need to get their "soul" back. Randy Moss is the exact opposite of what this team used to be about. He is not a football player. He also added that he believes the team will continue to make "business" decisions and stress "value" over obtaining good football players. He said the Jets are building a team the right way because they try to get "football players" instead of going for "value."
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,541
QUOTE
He said the Jets are building a team the right way because they try to get "football players" instead of going for "value."


Oh, for fuck's sake. They played well on Saturday night, but the Jets literally had two teams lay down for them to get into the playoffs. I love how the Jets are the model NFL organization now. Jesus Christ, way to get more reactionary.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 10 2010, 05:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2765474
Big week for the show...let's face it, this kind of loss often produces the most captivating form of talk radio (sadly).

But if we're treated to "I told you about Moss" from Felger and "Rome is burning" from Mazz, then this may be it.

Both things, especially the Moss issue, should be talked about. But I want new and different things brought up too. We'll see...I hope for a good week of radio.



Well they're certainly entitled for a few "I told you so's", because they've basically been predicting that playoff game all year long. Especially Felger.

It won't be as biting or transparent, but today Felger is gonna play the role of Mad Dog after a Yankee loss. (which will be genuine........I don't think he particularly cares for the Pats....especially Belichick) He's gonna be pretty pumped up about it and its gonna make for some interesting radio. He's gonna piss off a lot of people today I suspect.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jan 10 2010, 11:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766088
That's the point Felger hammered home on his Sunday night show tonight. They need to get their "soul" back. Randy Moss is the exact opposite of what this team used to be about. He is not a football player. He also added that he believes the team will continue to make "business" decisions and stress "value" over obtaining good football players. He said the Jets are building a team the right way because they try to get "football players" instead of going for "value."


This is almost unfathomably stupid.

How is Moss less of a 'football player' than Deion Branch, for example?

IT'S TALENT, NOT MAKEUP, YOU DUMB SHITS. THEY NEED MORE TALENT.

What the fuck is it with the media? If you lose, it's because you lack toughness and desire. If you win, it's because you 'know how to win'. What horseshit. There are plenty of weaknesses to ridicule with the '09 Pats, but I suppose it's easier to attack Brady and Moss than actually grapple with the true problems.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,016
Chelmsford, MA
Some of Felger's points will be valid and/or vindicated today. If he goes off about how they got too cheap and didn't bring back guys they needed to bring back, I'll tolerate it. It's not a new point but nothing that happened yesterday made it any less true. If he goes off on Moss not bringing it when it matters or something to the effect of not being able to count on him in a big game, you can't really refute it after yesterday so you kind of have to take it, even if you know it's just Felger going off on his favorite topic.

I think, for me as a listener, I know they feel this way and I'm ok with them giving me some amount of "I told you so". But there needs to be more analysis, bigger picture thinking, and some legitimate attempts to move forward and explain the way out. Even Felger would admit it's not trading Brady or firing BB. The guys who are gone are gone. All that "I told you so" needs to also lead to a discussion about what is fixable. I have no hope for Mazz on this, but when Felger really wants to he can talk football and get off of his Moss point, but sadly I don't have faith he'll get that far or that Mazz will push him to get that far.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (Mystic Merlin @ Jan 11 2010, 11:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766306
This is almost unfathomably stupid.

How is Moss less of a 'football player' than Deion Branch, for example?

IT'S TALENT, NOT MAKEUP, YOU DUMB SHITS. THEY NEED MORE TALENT.

What the fuck is it with the media? If you lose, it's because you lack toughness and desire. If you win, it's because you 'know how to win'. What horseshit. There are plenty of weaknesses to ridicule with the '09 Pats, but I suppose it's easier to attack Brady and Moss than actually grapple with the true problems.


I dunno dude, it was never about the talent when this team was filled with Vrabel's, Bruchi's, Harrison's and Troy Brown's. It was never about the talent when Tom Brady was winning that parking spot. Was the "Patriot Way" all a bunch of horseshit? I don't think so. I think they're missing those type of guys more than they're missing talent.

And regarding yesterday you didn't see a lack of toughness and desire? I sure as shit did.
 

RIrooter09

Alvin
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2008
7,254
QUOTE (Mystic Merlin @ Jan 11 2010, 11:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766306
This is almost unfathomably stupid.

How is Moss less of a 'football player' than Deion Branch, for example?

IT'S TALENT, NOT MAKEUP, YOU DUMB SHITS. THEY NEED MORE TALENT.

What the fuck is it with the media? If you lose, it's because you lack toughness and desire. If you win, it's because you 'know how to win'. What horseshit. There are plenty of weaknesses to ridicule with the '09 Pats, but I suppose it's easier to attack Brady and Moss than actually grapple with the true problems.


This is also the kind of "analysis" that most of Felger and Mazz's audience seems to eat up. See Rocco for example, he enjoys Felger unjustifiably ripping into Moss and Belichick for almost anything because as he has admitted many times he is an unabashed hater. I suspect most of the audience shares this characteristic. When a New England team loses it has to be someones fault, and Felger and Mazz are there to tell the audience exactly who deserves the blame facts be damned. The Red Sox could have had Teixiera, Jason Bay is a solid defensive outfielder and deserves a long term deal, Randy Moss has a family of Honduran immigrants chained up in his basement. This kind of commentary pisses me off more than the pom pom wavers at EEI because it's even easier to do this and stir the pot. Let's face it that's exactly what 95% of sports radio shows exist to do, stir the pot. As long as they get people riled up, they feel that they're doing their job. I happen to disagree, and that's why I find it difficult to listen to any sports radio anymore without yelling at the blathering idiots who obviously can't hear me.
 

shawnrbu

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
39,690
The Land of Fist Pumps
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 11 2010, 10:45 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766283
It won't be as biting or transparent, but today Felger is gonna play the role of Mad Dog after a Yankee loss. (which will be genuine........I don't think he particularly cares for the Pats....especially Belichick) He's gonna be pretty pumped up about it and its gonna make for some interesting radio. He's gonna piss off a lot of people today I suspect.


I agree. Unfortunately, Mazz will not play the role of Mike. Mazz might be more negative than Felger ("Angry Tony"). If CHB is in the studio today, then it'll be like three wild animals feasting on a carcass. I think a more interesting show would be Felger paired with Ordway or Pete Sheppard. Pete has shown he will criticize the team when they stink it up, but you can tell it hurts him to do so.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 11 2010, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766333
I dunno dude, it was never about the talent when this team was filled with Vrabel's, Bruchi's, Harrison's and Troy Brown's. It was never about the talent when Tom Brady was winning that parking spot. Was the "Patriot Way" all a bunch of horseshit? I don't think so. I think they're missing those type of guys more than they're missing talent.

And regarding yesterday you didn't see a lack of toughness and desire? I sure as shit did.


Vrabel, Bruschi, Harrison, and Brown were incredible players.

They were all super-talented and had high football IQs, something that isn't necessarily true about their replacements. The myth that those guys were good because they tried hard needs to die. They were all-world football players.

Also, are you contending that Tom Brady training in LA near his son somehow has something to do with the team's performance? Do you really think that a bunch of grown men are influenced one way or another by his two week presence at OTAs? He always shows up in shape and ready to go for training camp, so what kind of message do you think he's otherwise sending to the rest of the team? I don't understand this point (which comes up every 6-10 months or so) because no one has explained it. It's just sort of thrown out there as self-evident.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
QUOTE (Mystic Merlin @ Jan 11 2010, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766344
Vrabel, Bruschi, Harrison, and Brown were incredible players.

They were all super-talented and had high football IQs, something that isn't necessarily true about their replacements. The myth that those guys were good because they tried hard needs to die. They were all-world football players.

Also, are you contending that Tom Brady training in LA near his son somehow has something to do with the team's performance? Do you really think that a bunch of grown men are influenced one way or another by his two week presence at OTAs? He always shows up in shape and ready to go for training camp, so what kind of message do you think he's otherwise sending to the rest of the team? I don't understand this point (which comes up every 6-10 months or so) because no one has explained it. It's just sort of thrown out there as self-evident.


I think Brady training at Foxboro and garnering that parking spot set the tone for the entire organization. The Pats seemed to think its important that players train there........otherwise why would they have the program? Its certainly not the be all end all, but I do think its important.

Edit: Vrabel, Harrison, Brown and Bruschi were all world players? Thats news to me.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,727
Deep inside Muppet Labs
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 11 2010, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766333
I dunno dude, it was never about the talent when this team was filled with Vrabel's, Bruchi's, Harrison's and Troy Brown's. It was never about the talent when Tom Brady was winning that parking spot. Was the "Patriot Way" all a bunch of horseshit? I don't think so. I think they're missing those type of guys more than they're missing talent.

And regarding yesterday you didn't see a lack of toughness and desire? I sure as shit did.

Are you ever going to stop talking about the parking spot? Christ, Rocco, Brady's not some 24 year old guy with nothing else in his life but football. People grow up a bit and Brady's got family to take care of now, like many, many other players who don't spend all year in New England. Brady's got to go back to the west coast now because he's got a kid out there; frankly that's what the man should be doing. I think he's shown enough in his time in NE to be given at least some benefit of the doubt that he will prepare for the season just fine.

Brady's issues this year were injuries and the fact that he's 32 years old and his best years are behind him no matter how much he likes that fucking parking spot. Attributing this season to "lack of desire" or something like that makes no sense at all.

And Vrabel, Brusci, Harrison, Troy, Willie, Ty Law, Samuel were all incredibly talented players, placed into a scheme where they could thrive. It's hardly shocking that putting shitbums like Thomas, Burgess, Guyton, Wilhite, and Springs into that same scheme isn't going to produce the same results.

EDIT: This came out harsher than I intended. Mea culpa. I just think too much credence is being given to "desire" and not enough to "talent." Frankly, the guy who really should be getting ripped is BB, who had a shittastic year in bringing in talent and sticking with a system that appeared flawed and outdated.
 

shawnrbu

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
39,690
The Land of Fist Pumps
QUOTE (Rocco Graziosa @ Jan 11 2010, 11:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766363
Edit: Vrabel, Harrison, Brown and Bruschi were all world players? Thats news to me.


Rodney Harrison makes the Hall of Fame, if his career wasn't riddled with injuries from 05 onward. I also think Bruschi was a high-end player at his position during his peak. Unfortunately, the stroke put an end to his peak.
 
I don't think their problem is being too cheap...I don't think that they lost their soul...I don't think they lost on Sunday because "Randy Moss isn't a football player" and I certainly don't think it's because Tom Brady isn't as committed. Plain and simple, they've had some pretty shitty drafts the past four years or so. And that catches up with you. Look at the Steelers, Colts and other sucessful teams this decade - they all let star players go in FA like the Patriots. The only difference is that they have drafted better and have been able to replace playmakers with young, cheap playmakers. The Pats did this early in the decade and haven't been able to do it since.

So instead of searching for a philosophical or deeper issue, I simply think they didn't have enough talent to win because of such poor draft classes the previous four years or so. That probably doesn't make for the best radio, but I think that is reason number one as to why they are out of the playoffs.