Who's on Third? I don't know

redsox2020

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Not a big fan of Moustakas. Throw out his magical 2015 when the Royals won it all and he's left with a career .689 OPS. I get that he's better than our current black hole at 3B and can keep the seat warm for Devers, but he's a fan favorite in KC and I have a feeling they're gonna want the kitchen sink for him. I really don't wanna see us overpay for a rental.
 

dhappy42

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Why is everyone so certain that Devers, eventually, is the 3B solution? Anyone remember a guy named Will Middlebrooks? He was once a sure thing too.
 

Quintanariffic

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Aside from being 3B prospects in the Red Sox system, I'm not sure what those two players have in common with each other. Why didn't you choose Wade Boggs or Jeff Bagwell for that matter?

Devers has significantly better discipline and just a better hit tool, with lower K rates at more age advanced levels than Middlebrooks through their respective ml careers. Specifically, Devers is putting up a .291/.354/.493 line in his age 20 season in AA Portland. In his age 20 season, Middlebrooks was rocking a .265/.349/.404 line.

In Greenville.

Thanks for playing though.
 
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joe dokes

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Why is everyone so certain that Devers, eventually, is the 3B solution? Anyone remember a guy named Will Middlebrooks? He was once a sure thing too.
Even when middlebrooks was good there was concern that his 70/13 k/bb total could be a sign of trouble ahead, as he had the same issue in the minors.
Everyone knows that Devers us no sure thing, but that's because no 20 year old is.
 

streeter88

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I think there is certainty that with the situation at 3B as poor as it is, the Red Sox need to try everything reasonable. A 20 year old homegrown 3B who is by his play demanding a promotion to AAA (even despite recent mini slump) is a reasonable option, at least in the next year. Nothing I have read -- and there are a lot of smart people contributing to this board -- has sounded any more reasonable than Devers. Especially if Marrero stabilising the defence and contributing his 0.something WAR can continue, I vote for him as the bridge to Devers.
 

grimshaw

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Middlebrooks peaked as maybe #50-to 55 as a top 100 prospect too. Devers will probably crack the top 10 if not top 5. He's much more highly thought of.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Why is everyone so certain that Devers, eventually, is the 3B solution? Anyone remember a guy named Will Middlebrooks? He was once a sure thing too.
No, he wasn't. In fact, Middlebrooks was a significant disappointment as a prospect for the first two years, considering his draft pedigree and scouted tools. Devers has consistently been among the youngest kids at each stop in the minors, and last year showed good willingness to work on the discipline aspect of his plate approach.

Middlebooks is, however, a cautionary tale against getting too high on Chavis, even if he continues to hit a lot of bombs this year.
 

Plympton91

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No, he wasn't. In fact, Middlebrooks was a significant disappointment as a prospect for the first two years, considering his draft pedigree and scouted tools. Devers has consistently been among the youngest kids at each stop in the minors, and last year showed good willingness to work on the discipline aspect of his plate approach.

Middlebooks is, however, a cautionary tale against getting too high on Chavis, even if he continues to hit a lot of bombs this year.
Forced me to go look up Middlebrooks. He actually had a decent walk rate as a 20 year old at Greenville 48 in ~450 PA and a not horrible 35 in ~475 PA at Salem as a 21 year old. It wasn't until he got to AA that he completely fell off the table 95/20 K/BB in ~400 PA. And they promoted him anyway.

Chavis was in fact much worse than Middlebrooks in BB an K rates in Greenville. But this year in Salem he's at 17 Bb in 150 PA, which is better than anything Middlebrooks showed in his career.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Middlebrooks peaked as maybe #50-to 55 as a top 100 prospect too. Devers will probably crack the top 10 if not top 5. He's much more highly thought of.
Devers has already cracked some top 10 lists. I think he was as high as 7 in one of the more popular publications.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Devers has already cracked some top 10 lists. I think he was as high as 7 in one of the more popular publications.
In 2017 preseason rankings, he was #18 on Baseball America, #17 on MLB.com, and #13 on Baseball Prospectus. BA currently has him at #14 and MLB.com has him at #13. BP hasn't published anything updated yet.

Who has/had him at #7?
 

grimshaw

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In 2017 preseason rankings, he was #18 on Baseball America, #17 on MLB.com, and #13 on Baseball Prospectus. BA currently has him at #14 and MLB.com has him at #13. BP hasn't published anything updated yet.

Who has/had him at #7?
Keith Law had him at #7 mid season last year.

I would say from the other lists he has passed Meadows, Albies, and Al Reyes at least. Plus Beni graduated, and Bellinger is tearing things up in Dodgerland. Maybe also JP Crawford who is OPS'ing .588 in AAA and is 2 years older than Devers.
 
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Harry Hooper

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Interesting to hear Lyons and Rice on the NESN pregame tonight. They weren't throwing dirt on Panda's grave, but they were definitely picking out shovels.
 

Mueller Lite

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I'm really surprised that the guy I want has only been mentioned once on this thread.

Jed Lowrie could be a great fit. He knows Boston well, is on his last year of his contract being owed about 5.5 mil if he was traded today including his 1 mil buyout next year. Beane would be happy to sell him and I feel he'd be licking his chops for Deven Marrero and his defense or a potential future bullpen piece such as Jake Cosart down in AA. Billy may even throw us a couple mil if he gets the player he wants.

He has played 2nd, 3rd and SS, is an offensive upgrade over Rutledge and Marrero and provides great insurance for when Pablo continues to disappoint. Looks like Holt is going to be on a long road back and Jed could fill a huge need with a consistent bat and decent defense. It's a miracle he has played 50 out of 51 games without an injury. He's made of glass but I have always loved him. He could also be a solid Devers stop gap option to plug in for next year at 6 million if he stays healthy and productive.

Problem is that he hasn't played 3B and SS since 2015 so if his range is gone then this is a non starter with Pedroia only out for 10 days.
 

Mueller Lite

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When I said he was brought up once, I was referencing the post on page 3. I agree he is a huge injury risk but if Pedroia's injury worsens, Marrero's only offense in the next 2-3 weeks are the two home runs he hit last night and Lowrie is still healthy then I'd check in on what Beane would want if I was DD.
 

Al Zarilla

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Marrero had two HRs against lefty Quintana last night. That should get him at least a platoon vs. lefties. You know they have to give Sandoval a shot, so give him the platoon vs. righties. Unfortunately, that's a little over 70%, depending who you believe, or when the data is taken. If Sandoval gets hurt again or sucks at bat or in the field, they can play Marrero full time, get someone else at the deadline or bring up Devers. I would love to see Marrero at least get the top utility IF position on the team.
 

rarob

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I concur with Al Z, play Marrero against lefties, and additionally, in games that Sandoval starts against righties, let the Panda get 3 AB's, and then insert Marrero for defensive purposes late in the game.
 

Byrdbrain

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There are at least 9 more days before any of this really needs to be worried about. Marrero will play most if not all of the upcoming games mostly at 2B but some 3B too. Panda gets most games to see if he can add anything and Rutledge gets a couple of starts.
When Pedey comes back then you evaluate things at that point.
 

pokey_reese

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Good piece by Speier in today's Globe about how Marrero's offense has exceeded expectations offensively and why there's maybe some reason for cautious optimism with his bat:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/05/31/the-unexpected-surge-deven-marrerro-and-where-goes-from-here/CsTNRJJQIVN0U2rRcrp2CL/story.html
I mean, it was a pleasant enough puff piece, but I didn't see the part about cautious optimism for it continuing, other than "Jose Iglesias was wretched in the minors, too."

edit: while Speier points out that Marrero is striking out in a third of his ABs (which is bad), he doesn't mention that he only has a 6% walk rate (also bad), a low LD rate (about 15%) and is hitting almost 60% of his balls in play on the ground. AFTER last night he is still putting up a 57 wRC+ for the season with a ridiculous 30% HR/FB rate. I guess that if we are cautiously optimistic that he can remain one of the worst hitters in the league, then sure? But I'm not sure how this can be considered exceeding expectations in any real sense, given that we expected him to be terrible and he is.

Even the Iggy comparison makes no sense, because after showing Deven's slash line Speier mentions that Iglesias hit .330/.376/.409 while filling in for WMB, as if that is somehow similar to what Marrero is doing?
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Marrero had two HRs against lefty Quintana last night. That should get him at least a platoon vs. lefties. You know they have to give Sandoval a shot, so give him the platoon vs. righties.
With Marrero hitting against lefties and Sandoval against righties, you have a combined:

14 PAs / 13 ABs / 5 hits / 1 2B / 3 HR / 9 RBI / 1 BB / 5 K = .385 .429 1.154 1.582 plus
50 PAs / 45 ABs / 10 hits / 1 2B / 3 HR / 9 RBI / 4 BB / 10 K = .222 .280 .444 .724.

Not so bad in this day and age of 3B.
 

simplicio

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With Marrero hitting against lefties and Sandoval against righties, you have a combined:

14 PAs / 13 ABs / 5 hits / 1 2B / 3 HR / 9 RBI / 1 BB / 5 K = .385 .429 1.154 1.582 plus
50 PAs / 45 ABs / 10 hits / 1 2B / 3 HR / 9 RBI / 4 BB / 10 K = .222 .280 .444 .724.

Not so bad in this day and age of 3B.
If you're wondering, that's 4th in all of baseball (min 10PA). Hooray for SSS.
 

Al Zarilla

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On Pablo's gaffe (the second one) today, throwing to second instead of first, post game had some replays showing Davis might not have even been out if Marrero got over there. So that's a big mental error on Sandoval, the kind you don't forgive at all. The throw is always to first on 3 -2. I don't know what else this guy can do to make you want to cut bait with him.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't know what else this guy can do to make you want to cut bait with him.
At this point, I don't think the decision to not cut bait is based on what he does (or doesn't) do. It's simply the lack of alternatives. Particularly right now with Pedroia, Holt, and Hernandez all on the shelf for varying periods of time. I mean, they're already four deep on their list of utility infielders...who thought Deven Marrero would be a regular starter on this team by Memorial Day?

Teams with 3B who represent even a marginal upgrade to the Sandoval/Marrero/Rutledge morass will have Dombrowski over a barrel if he doesn't give the appearance that they have full confidence in Sandoval as long as he's healthy. They probably have him over a barrel anyway, I suppose, but no sense giving in to it and throwing too much good money after bad.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Since the Red Sox need any third baseman who can hit over .200 and field the ball, perhaps it's time to think outside the MLB box. For example, I did some clicking around and came across the Cubs' switch hitting Jeimer Candelario - who's completely blocked at the major league level. Now, I'm just doing a thought experiment - but a minor leaguer on a 1-year stop-gap, one who would only cost another minor leaguer at a position the Cubs (or any other team) may need, could be a more realistic scenario. The guy only has to be better than Marrero, under the assumption that Holt is out for the foreseeable future and Rutledge is not the answer.

I'm not sold on Candelario for anything except an example. The guy did hit .313 and OPS'd .951 in 119 AAA games, so his cost may be too high as a rental while the team waits for Devers.

Is it conceivable the short-term stop-gap solution at 3B could be somewhere in AAA? It sure looks like Sandoval can no longer field.
 

thestardawg

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I know this might not be a popular decision, as he seems like a bit of a brick headed guy, but Brett Lawrie is out there for free. He might end up being a similar hitter and a much better fielder than the Panda?
 

streeter88

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Anybody have the inside scoop on the timing of Devers' promotion to AAA? Sox Prospects' Chris Hatfield thinks it is 1-2 weeks away...


"In mid-May, I predicted this Tues for Devers to AAA. Got into a slump, starting to come out of it. I'd push prediction back 1-2 weeks."
 

joe dokes

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They still owe Pablo $55m. He's not going anywhere for at least a couple months
I dont know if that's a reason. The team has shown that its quite comfortable paying guys who suck, but not playing them, regardless of salary. (Craig and Castillo as exhbits 1 and 1A.) They may not be able to use whatever option scenario they used on Craig to bury him at AAA, but if they think they have an alternative -- and they think that he truly can't hack it anymore -- I am pretty sure they'd release Sandoval, or trade him for a bag of balls.
 

chawson

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Teams with 3B who represent even a marginal upgrade to the Sandoval/Marrero/Rutledge morass will have Dombrowski over a barrel if he doesn't give the appearance that they have full confidence in Sandoval as long as he's healthy. They probably have him over a barrel anyway, I suppose, but no sense giving in to it and throwing too much good money after bad.
I'm not sure I agree. Without digging super deep, teams that theoretically have short-term 3B available include the Royals, White Sox, Pirates, Rangers, Athletics (two of them), Angels (two of them), Padres, Cardinals, Marlins, Blue Jays (if they wanna move Donaldson); even the Mets if the Sox are somehow interested in a subsidized Jose Reyes.

Barring injury, there are zero other contenders shopping for third basemen.
 

joe dokes

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I'm not sure I agree. Without digging super deep, teams that theoretically have short-term 3B available include the Royals, White Sox, Pirates, Rangers, Athletics (two of them), Angels (two of them), Padres, Cardinals, Marlins, Blue Jays (if they wanna move Donaldson); even the Mets if the Sox are somehow interested in a subsidized Jose Reyes. Barring injury, there are zero other contenders shopping for third basemen.
Chase Headley's 73 OPS+ (lower than Sandoval, fwiw) suggests another team might be looking.
 

chawson

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Chase Headley's 73 OPS+ (lower than Sandoval, fwiw) suggests another team might be looking.
True, good point. Though after putting up a 148 OPS+ in April, they might see Headley as just having a really bad month.
 

moondog80

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True, good point. Though after putting up a 148 OPS+ in April, they might see Headley as just having a really bad month.
Headley had an OPS+ of 91 last year and 90 the year before; April was the outlier. I could easily see the Yankees upgrading. Headley is owed 13 mil next year, but they can easily afford to pay 11 mil of that for him to play elsewhere without disrupting any of their plans.
 

jon abbey

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NY isn't going to give up assets for a short-term third baseman, they have Wade and Torres and Andujar all playing well in AAA and AA. 3B is the best way to get Torres to the bigs this year, that will probably happen in the next month or two barring a massive turnaround by Headley.
 

moondog80

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NY isn't going to give up assets for a short-term third baseman, they have Wade and Torres and Andujar all playing well in AAA and AA. 3B is the best way to get Torres to the bigs this year, that will probably happen in the next month or two barring a massive turnaround by Headley.
You know more about the Yanks' farm system than me so I'll defer to your judgement, but just to be clear, my assumption is that a deal for 3 months of Frazier or Moustakas won't involve any serious assets, more along the lines of what NY gave up for Headley in the first place.
 

jon abbey

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And NY does need to probably move some guys in general to get value from them before a 40 man crunch this winter, but the bigger point is they don't want to block Torres and Didi and Castro probably aren't going anywhere.
 

gedman211

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Frazier's hitting .189 Lowry is a middle infielder who hasn't started at 3rd all season. Moustakas is going to drain an already depleted farm system. They're going to let Pablo try and hold the fort for Devers unless he really forces their hand. I think we've got at least 6 more weeks of holding our breath on every grounder to 3rd.
 

moondog80

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Frazier's hitting .189 Lowry is a middle infielder who hasn't started at 3rd all season. Moustakas is going to drain an already depleted farm system. They're going to let Pablo try and hold the fort for Devers unless he really forces their hand. I think we've got at least 6 more weeks of holding our breath on every grounder to 3rd.
How much would he really drain the system? He's going to be FA at the end of the year, the Royals probably won't extend a QO and are currently 22-33, and there are few if any other contenders who will be in the market for a 3B. Obviously I wouldn't want to give up a top prospect, but how about a guy ranked 15-20 group and another lower guy? That's what we paid for Brad Ziegler last year, who was closing for Arizona at the time.
 

Coachster

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I'm fully aware this is grasping at straws, but what about Howie Kendrick? Philly is going to be the first team to sell off assets, because they are awful. He's not really a 3rd baseman; he's got 20 or so games there with the Dodgers a couple years ago. However, professional hitter, good team guy, one year contract. Discuss...
 

MikeM

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I dont know if that's a reason. The team has shown that its quite comfortable paying guys who suck, but not playing them, regardless of salary. (Craig and Castillo as exhbits 1 and 1A.) They may not be able to use whatever option scenario they used on Craig to bury him at AAA, but if they think they have an alternative -- and they think that he truly can't hack it anymore -- I am pretty sure they'd release Sandoval, or trade him for a bag of balls.
I'm not sure how comparable the Craig and even Castillo scenarios are to this one. Lot of different and unique variables going into each of those, with the added curve ball that both surprising stalled out at the AAA hump (which more or less forced the walk away decision in itself).

If anything I think the Pablo situation right now, who's wishful ceiling potential at this point is probably a .700ops with league worst defense, is going to go a long way in defining just how comfortable we can be going forward with the suggested notion that blatantly dead money won't be a lingering problem in our decision making process/s.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Lawrie's an interesting option if he's actually healthy. He's a good example of a guy who was so hyped that when he turned out not to be a superstar, it seemed like he was awful even though in fact he's been at worst a mediocre player, and mostly fringe-average. He'd most likely be an upgrade over anybody we've got. True, he's a pretty well-documented butthead, but given our options, I hope DD at least kicks the tires.
 

gedman211

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Moustakas is certainly an upgrade, but it makes sense for KC to wait until the deadline and try to start a bidding war. Pablo is 3 years removed from being an above average defender. By all accounts he's worked his plus-sized tail off. And for the opportunity to save $55mil in sunk cost, the organization should give him 200 PAs to figure out how to elevate himself to the lofty standards league-average mediocrity.
 

johnnywayback

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Since the Red Sox need any third baseman who can hit over .200 and field the ball, perhaps it's time to think outside the MLB box. For example, I did some clicking around and came across the Cubs' switch hitting Jeimer Candelario - who's completely blocked at the major league level. Now, I'm just doing a thought experiment - but a minor leaguer on a 1-year stop-gap, one who would only cost another minor leaguer at a position the Cubs (or any other team) may need, could be a more realistic scenario. The guy only has to be better than Marrero, under the assumption that Holt is out for the foreseeable future and Rutledge is not the answer.

I'm not sold on Candelario for anything except an example. The guy did hit .313 and OPS'd .951 in 119 AAA games, so his cost may be too high as a rental while the team waits for Devers.

Is it conceivable the short-term stop-gap solution at 3B could be somewhere in AAA? It sure looks like Sandoval can no longer field.
Candelario would easily be our #4 prospect, and I'm not at all sure he wouldn't outrank Sam Travis for #3. He is very much blocked with Chicago, but I can't imagine what we have that the Cubs would want (unless we're sellers in July and trading Pomeranz), and I don't know why we'd want to pay for six years of control over a young player when we really only need three months' worth (or perhaps less, given how well Devers is bouncing back from his brief slump).
 

InsideTheParker

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After reading Alex Speier's most recent "108 Stiches" email, I feel more depressed than ever regarding Dombrowski's trading abilities. Maybe it would be better to stop him before he trades again.
While Thornburg hasn’t pitched, Travis Shaw has emerged as a potential All-Star third baseman for the Brewers, hitting .292/.339/.530 with 10 homers, 27 extra-base hits, and 40 RBIs.. . .

The Red Sox, meanwhile, have endured the lowest OPS in the majors from their third basemen (.605) and defense that has bordered on horrendous at the position, save for when Deven Marrero has played there.

Yet the trade looked even worse given the inclusion of the Red Sox’ best middle infield prospect and an intriguing pitcher with a big arm. (Mauricio Dubon is hitting .294/.346/.383 with 25 steals for Milwaukee’s Double A affiliate. Hard-throwing righthander Josh Pennington hasn’t pitched this year following an elbow-chip cleanup in the offseason).

The deal became more imbalanced with news on Monday that Milwaukee would receive another highly regarded prospect, shortstop Yeison Coca, as the player to be named in the deal. Coca, an 18-year-old switch-hitter, posted a .307/.370/.409 line in the Dominican Summer League last year.

Evaluators considered him a potential everyday shortstop given his glove, speed, athleticism, bat-to-ball skills, and potential doubles power. After Dubon’s departure, I ranked Coca as the second-best shortstop prospect in the Red Sox system, behind only 2016 second-rounder C.J. Chatham.

In a farm system now short on players who project as potential everyday players, the departure of Coca thins the Red Sox’ inventory of either future depth or trade chips. (Other teams had shown interest in attempting to acquire Coca via trade.) He represents the continuation of the Red Sox’ willingness to deplete their supply of middle-of-the-field players who eventually would have given the team the greatest flexibility in plugging holes.

Thanks to a pair of four-for-one trades (with the White Sox for Sale and the Brewers for Thornburg), there is a good chance that the offseason of 2016-17 will come to represent an organizational turning point for the Red Sox. The team’s hope is that it is most remembered for the acquisition of Sale rather than the holes created by the eight young players who departed.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Pablo is 3 years removed from being an above average defender.
He's also three years removed from playing for his first and (barring a miracle) last big contract. I don't mean that quite as pejoratively as it sounds. I don't think it indicates an egregious character flaw for a person to perform at a whole 'nother level when there is a huge potential benefit riding on their performance, and then ease off the throttle a bit when there is nothing but pride at stake. It indicates that they're like most people. What's surprising about professional athletes is how relatively unlike most people many of them are in this regard. But Panda, from what we've seen, doesn't appear to be one of those.