Who's on Third? I don't know
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
Chavis I can live with IF more is coming back on top of Frazier. If it's just straight up then Jesus Christ
What you talking about Chris Young about in our third basemen thread. I don't think he's a viable option.
It amazes me that people are using the argument that Frazier is not a "middle of the order bat" (which he's probably not, whatever that means exactly) to suggest that he's not an upgrade (which he clearly, clearly is).
First of all, if you accept the proposition that we need more home runs as much as we need anything, then Frazier is your guy. Whatever else he does, for better or worse, he hits home runs. He has hit 29, 35 and 40 over the past three years, and he's on a pace for 29 again. He should hit between 10 and 15 the rest of the way. Jed Lowrie's not gonna do that, and Tzu-Wei Lin and Deven Marrero sure as hell aren't.
He's a low-BABIP guy, so he'll never have gaudy batting averages. But the reason why he's a low-BABIP guy is that he's a flyball hitter. This is a good thing at Fenway Park, in case anyone hasn't gotten the memo. He's not an egregiously high-K guy--usually in the 20-22% range. Worse than average, but only a little. And he walks more than average, too.
All this adds up to a solid-average hitter overall, but one skewed to power. Which we need. And he's a good defensive third baseman. Not a Gold Glover, but not sort-of-OK-if-you-squint good, either. Just plain good.
On top of that, acquiring him allows us to manage the development of a blue-chip offensive prospect the way it should be managed--on the merits--rather than rushing him to the majors because we have a hole to fill. And he does that without any baggage in the way of a long-term commitment.
In other words, he's an amazingly good fit for our needs right now. Not a savior, not a replacement for Papi (which seems like the narrative underpinning a lot of this discussion), just a solid upgrade, available at what promises to be a very modest price. If I hadn't been on this board for almost a decade, I would be flabbergasted that people are finding ways to see this as a bad idea.
First of all, if you accept the proposition that we need more home runs as much as we need anything, then Frazier is your guy. Whatever else he does, for better or worse, he hits home runs. He has hit 29, 35 and 40 over the past three years, and he's on a pace for 29 again. He should hit between 10 and 15 the rest of the way. Jed Lowrie's not gonna do that, and Tzu-Wei Lin and Deven Marrero sure as hell aren't.
He's a low-BABIP guy, so he'll never have gaudy batting averages. But the reason why he's a low-BABIP guy is that he's a flyball hitter. This is a good thing at Fenway Park, in case anyone hasn't gotten the memo. He's not an egregiously high-K guy--usually in the 20-22% range. Worse than average, but only a little. And he walks more than average, too.
All this adds up to a solid-average hitter overall, but one skewed to power. Which we need. And he's a good defensive third baseman. Not a Gold Glover, but not sort-of-OK-if-you-squint good, either. Just plain good.
On top of that, acquiring him allows us to manage the development of a blue-chip offensive prospect the way it should be managed--on the merits--rather than rushing him to the majors because we have a hole to fill. And he does that without any baggage in the way of a long-term commitment.
In other words, he's an amazingly good fit for our needs right now. Not a savior, not a replacement for Papi (which seems like the narrative underpinning a lot of this discussion), just a solid upgrade, available at what promises to be a very modest price. If I hadn't been on this board for almost a decade, I would be flabbergasted that people are finding ways to see this as a bad idea.
Frazier would plug in 7th or 8th into this lineup immediately and start cleaning up some of those runners that the catchers and third basemen are leaving on.
our pitching is so good that an extra key HR or two with a runner or two on base could really give us the couple of extra wins we need to get over the top. we have an insane record when scoring 5+ runs, Frazier would help us get there more often
our pitching is so good that an extra key HR or two with a runner or two on base could really give us the couple of extra wins we need to get over the top. we have an insane record when scoring 5+ runs, Frazier would help us get there more often
I agree with SH as long as the cost is modest, which it should be as there won't be a bidding war for him.
My concern is the prospect cost if Robertson comes along as part of the deal. I liked what I saw in Maddox and Workman looks like he is back to being Workman. Give them a shot at it first.
My concern is the prospect cost if Robertson comes along as part of the deal. I liked what I saw in Maddox and Workman looks like he is back to being Workman. Give them a shot at it first.
Hey Savin, that post would have been great in the What will DD Do thread. Lots of debate about Jed Lowrie, Frazier doesn't have high OBP, etc etc. missing the point that we need a 3B who can hit HRs and fly balls that turn into HRs, play defense, and stay healthy.
I am with you, that then there is not as much pressure on Devers to be the saviour, and he can develop at his own pace.
And again, as long as the price for Frazier is modest, which others in the thread have made far better suggestions than I could...
I am with you, that then there is not as much pressure on Devers to be the saviour, and he can develop at his own pace.
And again, as long as the price for Frazier is modest, which others in the thread have made far better suggestions than I could...
Pete AbrahamVerified account @PeteAbe 4m4 minutes ago
#RedSox optioned Tzu-Wei Lin and RHP Austin Maddox. They’ll use Holt/Marrero as a 3B platoon for now.
#RedSox optioned Tzu-Wei Lin and RHP Austin Maddox. They’ll use Holt/Marrero as a 3B platoon for now.
Not a big fan of Marrero over Lin, I'd rather ride the hit hand until it craps out. Might not be for long if a Frazier trade is coming but wondering the justification. Lin looked good on both sides.
Yankees demonstrated tonight how a sucky 3B can cost you (as if we didn't already know). Marrero is a damn good fielder. I only wish Bogaerts was better.
This is theoretically the move, since he's starting Monday. That doesn't mean more moves won't be made before Monday's game
The only reason is that Holt and Lin both hit from the same side of the plate.
At this point I'd certainly rather have Lin than Holt but Lin has options and Holt doesn't so that is what they almost had to do.
The only other option really would have been to send Travis back down to play every day.
I think Fister will still get the start on Tuesday.
I was going to bring up the Holt problem too. Hopefully this condition he has can be managed and he'll go back to being the 280/340/370 hitter he's been in the past, but right now he's killing them at the plate. And his 3B defense is slightly below average.
This is not ideal. The medical
Condition he has ends a lot of careers. And they really can't afford to give him a long grace period. Hopefully he is ok,
I don't think he's on any leash at all. You know, I know, and certainly dombrowski knows, that this team is better when Holt only plays a few times a week, giving a break to a middle infielder or maybe on OF.
There is no way that dombrowski is not trying to get a major league 3Bman.
That's Holt's leash.
According to Olney, he thinks Manny Machado should be on the block. What's a year and change of him worth? Is he worth emptying the farm for?
I tend to think no, unless they know they can re-sign him to a long-term deal. He's gotta cost Devers, Groome, Ockimey, at a minimum. And that may not be enough. I mean, if you're going to empty the farm, it's got to be for a top guy like Machado, but I just don't see it on a couple of levels. If it puts them over the LT threshold (and Cot's has them with ~$12M of space), then it's more likely no. If they could avoid dealing Devers AND Chavis then you have a potential long term backup plan having Chavis available if Machado left. But do the Sox have enough left on the farm to get a guy that good? And they'd likely have to pay an in-division trade penalty of a higher cost than most teams.
When it all comes down to it, it's likely just a mental exercise, because Peter Angelos can't get out of his own way and probably still thinks his team is a serious contender.
I tend to think no, unless they know they can re-sign him to a long-term deal. He's gotta cost Devers, Groome, Ockimey, at a minimum. And that may not be enough. I mean, if you're going to empty the farm, it's got to be for a top guy like Machado, but I just don't see it on a couple of levels. If it puts them over the LT threshold (and Cot's has them with ~$12M of space), then it's more likely no. If they could avoid dealing Devers AND Chavis then you have a potential long term backup plan having Chavis available if Machado left. But do the Sox have enough left on the farm to get a guy that good? And they'd likely have to pay an in-division trade penalty of a higher cost than most teams.
When it all comes down to it, it's likely just a mental exercise, because Peter Angelos can't get out of his own way and probably still thinks his team is a serious contender.
The way I heard it when Olney was talking about it is only Devers being the main piece. If it was Devers and lottery tickets for Manny I think I'd say yes
I'd say no. We need cost-controlled players if we're going to keep all the guys we want.
I'm not very good at this, but what about Eugenio Suarez from Cincy? Currently slashing.252/.356/.437/.793. He's young, but if he doesn't have lots of control left and doesn't block Devers, then it could make sense.
I would think Duke would want to empty the Sox cupboard, 10-D, Devers, Broome for Manny.
And no way is the Nets '18 pick being touched.
pass
hopefully DDD can find a decent rental.
And no way is the Nets '18 pick being touched.
pass
hopefully DDD can find a decent rental.
Just to play the game because we all know it's a pipe dream
It's tough to value Machado fairly because he's having such a rough offensive year for him (worse than Hanley and Moreland). Obviously he's all world defense and he's still a large offensive upgrade at 3b, but it would be risky to put all their eggs in one basket banking on a return to form. They at least would get to extend him a QO though.
Cameron mentions the studs like him and Harper in his trade value series.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2017-trade-value-honorable-mentions/
Last year it's probably akin to Sale's package.
This year it seems like Devers and B level guys is closer to his value.
It's tough to value Machado fairly because he's having such a rough offensive year for him (worse than Hanley and Moreland). Obviously he's all world defense and he's still a large offensive upgrade at 3b, but it would be risky to put all their eggs in one basket banking on a return to form. They at least would get to extend him a QO though.
Cameron mentions the studs like him and Harper in his trade value series.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2017-trade-value-honorable-mentions/
Last year it's probably akin to Sale's package.
This year it seems like Devers and B level guys is closer to his value.
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We're not gonna keep all the guys we want. Mr. Boras will counsel Messrs. JBJ and X to go to free agency.
I would say Betts is the NEED TO SIGN long term guy. JBJ will be a little old once he hits FA, and Benintendi can move to CF. Maybe Chavis ends up in LF?
Xander is a solid player but, unless he finds his power stroke, I wouldnt be too upset about him leaving in FA. Betts on another team would frustrate me, for sure.
I don't really disagree with anything you wrote.
I just think a lot of us need reminding that Bogaerts is 24 years old, still two years before his expected offensive prime. There's time for the power to arrive in game. If we get a chance to buy out his arb years for a few FA years, I'd definitely take it.
It's also worth noting that he made a conscious effort to focus more on line drive contact than fly ball contact so while his raw power is still excellent, his swing isn't geared to fully tap into it. That's probably an adjustment made to close up the hole he has in his swing down and away that was horrifically susceptible to sliders from right handed pitchers. That hole still exists, and was on display last night even, but is much less of a problem now.
Scott Lauber ESPN Staff Writer
Xander Bogaerts' right hand is still bothering him after getting hit by pitch July 6 at Tampa Bay. Scratched from Red Sox's lineup and available only in an emergency tonight, although team is hopeful it's a day-to-day situation, manager John Farrell said.
***
Gee, I wonder if there's a correlation?
Xander Bogaerts' right hand is still bothering him after getting hit by pitch July 6 at Tampa Bay. Scratched from Red Sox's lineup and available only in an emergency tonight, although team is hopeful it's a day-to-day situation, manager John Farrell said.
***
Gee, I wonder if there's a correlation?
Jen McCaffreyVerified account @jcmccaffrey 1h1 hour ago
Swihart been on DL in Pawtucket for lingering issues from ankle surgery. Hasn't been able to catch. Sox plan to try him at other INF spots
Swihart been on DL in Pawtucket for lingering issues from ankle surgery. Hasn't been able to catch. Sox plan to try him at other INF spots
Swihart trying out 1st base I get, but why bother with him messing around at third base at all when we have Devers.
Cross-posting from the hopster
Bruce Levine @MLBBruceLevine
Todd Frazier a healthy scratch from the lineup .? Boston appears close to getting him and David Robertson Money appears right as well.
Bruce Levine @MLBBruceLevine
Todd Frazier a healthy scratch from the lineup .? Boston appears close to getting him and David Robertson Money appears right as well.
Hm, one tweet says Frazier and Robertson for Chavis, Travis Lakins and cash, but I can't tell if it's fake.
