Who plays 1B next year?

What do you think we should do?


  • Total voters
    400

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Re footwork, the guy has played close to a thousand games at SS. That's a lot of plays at the second base bag on forces and DPs. Nobody ever accused him of being anywhere near a gold glove SS but he couldn't have been too much of a stumblebutt. Also, even Fangraphs is using the term "eye test" somewhat now, and my eye test of Hanley in quite a few games with the Dodgers against the Giants was that he didn't look bad at short or third. His limited range was his biggest problem, which his UZR numbers bear out. My biggest concern is going to be his handling of throws from the other infielders. I guess we all have our own fears about how he's going to mess up.
Actually his UZR numbers, when broken down to components, suggest that he was pretty bad at everything--but even granting the bolded premise, why did he have limited range at SS? We're talking about a guy who's not lacking in speed (267 career stolen bases). What is the specific deficit that could lead an otherwise apparently pretty good athlete to have trouble covering ground at SS, and why should we expect that deficit not to hamper his ability to play other, less athletically demanding positions?
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,415
Not here
Never mind. He was deleted. 100 games. In. The. Bag.

When the games gonna start again?
 

O Captain! My Captain!

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 3, 2009
3,532
Actually his UZR numbers, when broken down to components, suggest that he was pretty bad at everything--but even granting the bolded premise, why did he have limited range at SS? We're talking about a guy who's not lacking in speed (267 career stolen bases). What is the specific deficit that could lead an otherwise apparently pretty good athlete to have trouble covering ground at SS, and why should we expect that deficit not to hamper his ability to play other, less athletically demanding positions?
Well the footwork involved in stealing bases and playing SS is somewhat different, but it seems more likely that Hanley's not very good at judging balls coming off the bat, or it takes him longer to know where the ball's going than the average IF. You see this all the time in the outfield, guys with amazing first steps (not acceleration, but how fast they break when the ball's hit) or great routes. JBJ is actually like this, he's not a huge burner but more than makes up for it with quick and accurate reactions to the ball leaving the bat. Hanley's likely the opposite, I'd bet he ends his career with more SB than JBJ even on a rate basis, but he's nobody's idea of a good fielder.

What I'd expect based on this is that Hanley'd be better than you might expect at slow-hit balls hit far away from him but worse at hard hit balls hit close, but I don't know how to evaluate this based on the fielding data that's available. Anyway, if this is true we'd also expect Hanley to not be a very good 1b on balls hit to him, but to be OK at receiving throws. Fortunately, there are way fewer balls hit to 1b than to SS, and receiving is a much larger part of the job at 1b. So don't expect a ton of great plays on balls smashed in his direction by LHH pull hitters, but also he probably won't be hurting the team on balls hit to anyone else. I hope.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,851
San Andreas Fault
Well the footwork involved in stealing bases and playing SS is somewhat different, but it seems more likely that Hanley's not very good at judging balls coming off the bat, or it takes him longer to know where the ball's going than the average IF. You see this all the time in the outfield, guys with amazing first steps (not acceleration, but how fast they break when the ball's hit) or great routes. JBJ is actually like this, he's not a huge burner but more than makes up for it with quick and accurate reactions to the ball leaving the bat. Hanley's likely the opposite, I'd bet he ends his career with more SB than JBJ even on a rate basis, but he's nobody's idea of a good fielder.

What I'd expect based on this is that Hanley'd be better than you might expect at slow-hit balls hit far away from him but worse at hard hit balls hit close, but I don't know how to evaluate this based on the fielding data that's available. Anyway, if this is true we'd also expect Hanley to not be a very good 1b on balls hit to him, but to be OK at receiving throws. Fortunately, there are way fewer balls hit to 1b than to SS, and receiving is a much larger part of the job at 1b. So don't expect a ton of great plays on balls smashed in his direction by LHH pull hitters, but also he probably won't be hurting the team on balls hit to anyone else. I hope.
Thing is that it's easy for infielders to judge balls off the bat and which way to break. A ground ball is either to his left or his right or right at him and there is extremely little doubt immediately which way to run after it. One of those spinning squib shots is the exception. The hardest play, and a pretty common one for an outfielder, is a ball hit right at him and he has to decide whether to break back or in (that thing some here used to say Ellsbury was bad at, and JBJ is great at). The equivalent for an infielder, a line drive (or a hump-back line drive) is much easier to judge. Those are a small percentage play compared with grounders anyway. So, I think it's a quickness thing with infielders, which Andrew said. Hanley, built like a linebacker, is obviously less quick than another tall-ish SS, say, Xander, who's built like a wide receiver. Or, is there possibly a thing like dyslexia with some ballplayers where they can't tell right away whether the ball is heading to their right or left side. Never heard of it.
 

BestGameEvah

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 21, 2012
1,089
Travis Shaw working with Butter at first today (while some position players took the optional work day off! Edit: Apparently, Shaw has only worked out at third prior to today (per Abraham tweet).
 
Last edited:

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
I'm just trying to imagine a drill where there would be some ambiguity about whether a 1B should be covering first base.
I'd imagine balls in the hole where he's not sure if he should be playing it or if he should be going to the bag and letting Pedroia take it. It's going to be a change for him - at SS his mindset was to get to every ball he could, because he was the second line of defense on those type of grounders. Now he's going to have to fight instinct and get used to the idea that he has a 2B with great range behind him and his own zone is smaller now. There will be times he goes too far, we should be prepared for that. The question will be if the pitcher on the mound recognizes it developing and gets over to cover first.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,263
deep inside Guido territory
I'd imagine balls in the hole where he's not sure if he should be playing it or if he should be going to the bag and letting Pedroia take it. It's going to be a change for him - at SS his mindset was to get to every ball he could, because he was the second line of defense on those type of grounders. Now he's going to have to fight instinct and get used to the idea that he has a 2B with great range behind him and his own zone is smaller now. There will be times he goes too far, we should be prepared for that. The question will be if the pitcher on the mound recognizes it developing and gets over to cover first.
This is it. He's going to have to develop the feel for how far he can range over. I just hope he puts in the extra work it will take throughout the season to get better.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
He'll also have to both learn his responsibility on bunts (different infield rotations) and then practice it, so that it becomes second nature. Learn where to go on cut offs, too.

Quick picks on liners and throws in the dirt are the hardest, common things that you do at 1st base. Almost everything else is either easier than what you have to do at other infield positions or a question of understanding what you're supposed to do and then practicing it.

Hanley doesn't have terrible hands. The success of this most recent experiment, imo, is going to be about his putting in the effort, physically and mentally. Learn what you're expected to do in each situation, and then practice it. Showing up a week early, in decent looking physical shape, gives reason for hope.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,131
Hanley doesn't have terrible hands. The success of this most recent experiment, imo, is going to be about his putting in the effort, physically and mentally. Learn what you're expected to do in each situation, and then practice it. Showing up a week early, in decent looking physical shape, gives reason for hope.

Or he might end up sucking at it because he sucks at it, not because he's lazy or dumb ("putting in the effort, physically and mentally.")
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
Or he might end up sucking at it because he sucks at it, not because he's lazy or dumb ("putting in the effort, physically and mentally.")
"Lazy" and "dumb" are your words, not mine. The world is not all black and white. Ted Williams was neither lazy nor dumb but he didn't care nearly as much about the nuances of fielding as he did the science of hitting. And, most would say, his mediocre play in LF reflected that. Hanley can show up, run through all the drills, and not quite get the details, all while continuing to put in extra BP and working out like a madman. He wouldn't then fairly be characterized as lazy or dumb, but not dedicated or focused enough on learning a new position? Probably.

Anyway, as I said, showing up early to begin working on his fielding is a good initial sign.
 

koufax37

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,472
ah come on man. he's a kabillionaire. are you really spinning a story of him borrowing gloves? and why would any mlb player rely on borrowed gloves anyways?

this is crazy. he obviously didn't put a lick of 1b work in this offseason.
Top quality leather gloves take time to break in, often a lot. They are stiff and unforgiving during that time, which is usually fine for an infielder (Ozzie Smith notoriously preferred a stiff glove and reportedly changed his gloves as often as six weeks), but definitely not a fit for a 1B where having a well established pocket the ball easily stays in beats a frying pan where hand eye coordination is key.

Thanks to a friend who is a custom glove maker, I actually have a highest end possible 1B glove (way above my price range), and have watched how it broke in over the first year, and Hanley would want no part of that glove while learning the position until it has had a lot of breaking in away from the actual position.

Where he gets his gloves or how he gets them sufficiently broken in is immaterial, but let's be very clear that using a glove that is not broken in for any training reps would be counter-productive, so if he likes a glove that Nap broke in better than a glove that his friends and handlers break in for him, it is such a non-story.

His footwork in that video seems a little bit stiff, but his hands are those of someone with tons of infield innings and will be fine. We also won't make or break the season on his 3-6 tag double plays, and his real value will be concentrated in three areas: having balls hit his way become outs instead of getting into right field, picking bad throws to convert errors allowing baserunners and extra bases into outs, and feeding the ball successfully to pitchers when necessary without getting them hurt or allowing the baserunner to reach.

The first is very similar to what he did competently at 3B (and SS to a lesser degree). The second is new, but is linked to the infield hand work he has done his whole life and different from all the things he struggled with last year. Hoping that our infield doesn't make it hurt that often, or end up having a season changing moment like Prince Fielder had for the Tigers in the 2013 ALCS where he failed on a play that needs to be made on Iglesias's wild throw. The third has me worried because it is so different, but is fundamentally the least difficult of the three, so hopefully something he can master during PFPs this spring.

I remain unworried about the defensive value of this transition, and much more eagerly waiting for him to prove he is healthy and ready to return to the offensive force that he always is when healthy. This is not like last year's wild experiment with uncharted territory, and he should be fine.
 

koufax37

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,472
get in front of the ball, Hanley!
Fun stuff and I know you are joking, but a righty 1B holding a runner on, coming off the bag, and fielding a ball down the line to start a 6-3tag DP will do very little to get in front of the ball and will typically react and pick the ball where it is without much time to move his feet. Not saying that a novice Hanley won't let some of those scoot under his glove and turn a potential double play into a double, but if so it will be for failed hand work, not foot work.

 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
This is not like last year's wild experiment with uncharted territory, and he should be fine.
I'll respectfully disagree. Different position, but he's got no experience there and will undoubtedly be involved in many more defensive plays at first than in left field. He's going to need to develop a "feel" for where that bag is in relation to where he is on each and every ball hit in the infield. There are also situations where he's going to be taking throws when he's not yet on the bag as well as hurried throws that are in the dirt.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Top quality leather gloves take time to break in, often a lot. They are stiff and unforgiving during that time, which is usually fine for an infielder (Ozzie Smith notoriously preferred a stiff glove and reportedly changed his gloves as often as six weeks), but definitely not a fit for a 1B where having a well established pocket the ball easily stays in beats a frying pan where hand eye coordination is key.

Thanks to a friend who is a custom glove maker, I actually have a highest end possible 1B glove (way above my price range), and have watched how it broke in over the first year, and Hanley would want no part of that glove while learning the position until it has had a lot of breaking in away from the actual position.

Where he gets his gloves or how he gets them sufficiently broken in is immaterial, but let's be very clear that using a glove that is not broken in for any training reps would be counter-productive, so if he likes a glove that Nap broke in better than a glove that his friends and handlers break in for him, it is such a non-story.

His footwork in that video seems a little bit stiff, but his hands are those of someone with tons of infield innings and will be fine. We also won't make or break the season on his 3-6 tag double plays, and his real value will be concentrated in three areas: having balls hit his way become outs instead of getting into right field, picking bad throws to convert errors allowing baserunners and extra bases into outs, and feeding the ball successfully to pitchers when necessary without getting them hurt or allowing the baserunner to reach.

The first is very similar to what he did competently at 3B (and SS to a lesser degree). The second is new, but is linked to the infield hand work he has done his whole life and different from all the things he struggled with last year. Hoping that our infield doesn't make it hurt that often, or end up having a season changing moment like Prince Fielder had for the Tigers in the 2013 ALCS where he failed on a play that needs to be made on Iglesias's wild throw. The third has me worried because it is so different, but is fundamentally the least difficult of the three, so hopefully something he can master during PFPs this spring.

I remain unworried about the defensive value of this transition, and much more eagerly waiting for him to prove he is healthy and ready to return to the offensive force that he always is when healthy. This is not like last year's wild experiment with uncharted territory, and he should be fine.
Isn't the third skill (the flip to a pitcher covering first) actually very similar to a SS flipping to a 2B covering second? I would think that would actually be a very recognizable skill for him.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,595
Maine
Isn't the third skill (the flip to a pitcher covering first) actually very similar to a SS flipping to a 2B covering second? I would think that would actually be a very recognizable skill for him.
The mechanics of the actual flip might be similar to a SS --> 2B flip, but the timing and angle is different. Generally when a SS is flipping to a 2B at the bag, the 2B is moving toward him so the throw is going straight at him. Flipping to the pitcher requires a bit more anticipation since the idea is to lead the pitcher to the bag with the throw. Takes a bit of practice to throw to space in front of the player (like a QB leading a receiver) rather than to the player. Then there's learning the techniques of the various pitchers. Some are quicker to the bag than others. Some go straight to the baseline and then turn up toward the bag while others take a more direct route. Lefties have a different "sweet spot" than righties. The more the first baseman knows, the smoother those plays tend to go and the less often there's a cross up or the pitcher getting handcuffed by the toss.
 

strek1

Run, Forrest, run!
SoSH Member
Jun 13, 2006
31,726
Hartford area
Another aspect of flipping a ball to a pitcher covering first is the ability of the pitcher to catch it. While some pitchers are excellent fielders some are not. Flipping a ball to a supposedly sure handed middle infielder allows a bigger margin of error than tossing to a pitcher at first. You better be feeding some of these guys just in the right spot and not too hard or it's not going to end well.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,365
Don't know what the glove slashing is about...
If he keeps that up, it's a great way to get his left arm smashed by an oncoming batter-runner.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
10,388
NH
God, I missed you guys. OH NO! Hanley looks lazy in spring training!!!1!

So, what? Call me when he's doing that shit in games that matter.
 

C4CRVT

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 29, 2008
3,076
Heart of the Green Mountains
God, I missed you guys. OH NO! Hanley looks lazy in spring training!!!1!

So, what? Call me when he's doing that shit in games that matter.
You're right. I just with there was a time between spring training and the regular season that he could learn how to play first base with coaches showing him the proper techniques and good habits before the games matter. Cause then he could take it seriously.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
So, he is basically standing at 1B while other guys are doing catch and throw drills (at least from what I can gather). I'm not sure it's something he should take seriously. You see kids doing this all the time, or at least I did when I coached and played. Maybe it is unprofessional or something for a big leaguer to be doing it? I don't know. anyway, presumably when he is an active participant in the drills, rather than just a place for guys to throw the ball, he is using better technique.

That said, of course he should be going out of his way to learn better habits, but this is so exaggerated I can't imagine the coaches think it is doing any harm.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
That is pick technique on a ball in the dirt. You've all seen the big donkey do it for the MFY's. Doing it on normal throws is a bit odd, so maybe he's just trying to reinforce quite glove with active arm motion through the catch zone to get used to moving on the low ones. I prefer quite glove and arm on throws on target, but I'm sure Butter is right there. BTW Papi does that all the time the 3-4 times a year he plays first. Not that he's a good defensive comp, but we've seen it before.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,851
San Andreas Fault
Here's a better vid of work he's doing.

https://www.periscope.tv/w/1vAGRjwaneDGl
OK, and then what happened? He caught, what, one ball at first base in the video? Always wonder, do they throw away those ball buckets at the end of the season and buy all new ones? They always look so white compared with mine when I coached ball. Wasting John Henry's money like that, tsk, tsk.
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2002
13,024
Seattle, WA
How could a guy who played shortstop not be able to play 1B? I wouldn't know, but it seems to me that it's just getting the reps in? (and learning how to do the split)
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,047
Boasting what has quickly become a signature swiping motion with his fielder's mitt, Ramirez appeared to be anything but a player learning a new position as he took grounders and throws.

Ramirez's fielding was crisp and error-free, punctuated by a fluid agility that seemed to escape him during last season's unsuccessful move to left field.

...


A three-time, All-Star shortstop, Ramirez showcased his powerful arm with throws to Pedroia that were consistently accurate, with one toss earning an audible "Yes!" from the fiery second baseman.

...

Manager John Farrell was on hand for the workout, and he liked what he saw from his new first baseman. At one point, the Red Sox skipper offered up a "Wow, look at that!" as Ramirez whirled and threw a strike to second after fielding a challenging one-hopper.

"I thought Hanley had a very good day today," said Farrell. "He completed all the plays. As far as the throws ... his footwork today was very good.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/165547658/hanley-ramirez-footwork-at-1st-base-improving
 

brandonchristensen

Loves Aaron Judge
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
38,128
The baby gloves approach to everything is kind of funny.

You could substitute a few words and it would sound like a preschool report card.

Glad to hear he had a good day.
 

LoweTek

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2005
2,178
Central Florida
Speed and quickness are different things. Range is more about quickness.
What you observe as quickness impacting range is only a small part of it. Range is actually a complex combination of positioning, anticipation, concentration, moving before the ball is hit by reading the contact point and bat angle, knowing your pitcher, the upcoming pitch, knowing the hitter's tendency, the game situation and even the count. Good or quick footwork alone wouldn't be enough to effect great range without these other skills. Watch Pedroia and look for these things. He is a true Master at them.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,047
The baby gloves approach to everything is kind of funny.

You could substitute a few words and it would sound like a preschool report card.

Glad to hear he had a good day.
Felt that a good day and some good words from his teammates and coaches was only fair to post.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,851
San Andreas Fault
From the MLB story:

While a noticeably more nimbleXander Bogaerts displayed quick hands and feet as he gobbled up grounders to his left

What is that about?
That puzzled me too, made me look at the date to see if it was 2015. Also, the mention of Hanley throwing to Pedey, powerful arm, etc. What is a first baseman doing throwing a lot of balls to a second baseman about anyway? If he hits Pedey in the back of the head throwing to the wrong guy at the second base bag, I'll personally go down there and slap him upside the head.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,047
Somehow that was your take away from an article that stated he didn't make a single mistake and everyone was happy? Jesus, this guy doesn't have a prayer.