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Who is the Sox 2VP?

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by Buzzkill Pauley, Aug 30, 2017.

?

The second-most valuable player is:

  1. Mookie Betts

    28.8%
  2. Craig Kimbrel

    39.8%
  3. Drew Pomeranz

    29.7%
  4. Pablo Sandoval

    1.7%
  5. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

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    9,426
    You know the drill. And you also know Sale is the team MVP.

    But who's the second-most important player on the 2017 Red Sox?

    A vote for Panda is actually a vote for his abject failure which lead DDski to DFA his butt and bring aboard not only super-utility hero Eduardo Nunez, but also wunderkind Rafael Devers.
     
  2. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    It's Kimbrel easily, I think. We might end up needing a 3VP thread.
     
  3. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Isn't the answer just as obvious?

    edit: I guess not, because it's easily Mookie Betts.
     
  4. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

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    9,426
    See, I say Pom, as much as it hurts my Espinoza-loving heart to do so.

    The Sox record in Sale starts is 18-8.

    The Sox record in Pom starts is 18-8.

    The Sox record in other games is 38-41.

    If Sale has been this season's Van Gogh -- driven to cut off his own ear to get a damn run in support of his genius -- then Pom has been his Toulouse-Lautrec.
     
  5. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    16,367
    Without Pomeranz they'd barely be over .500 IMO
     
  6. dbn

    dbn Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    bWAR:

    Sale - 4.9
    Betts - 4.9
    Pomeranz - 3.1
    Bradley - 2.9
    Kimbrel - 2.8
    Benintendi - 2.2

    I know, sample size, defensive component, yada, yada, but hey we're already throwing around wins in games they started. Seems Sale and Betts are clear leaders, with Pom, Bradley and Kimbrel all about the same in third.

    Also, just for kicks: Bogaerts leads the team in boWAR at 2.7 (Bradley 2.3, Betts, 2.2, Pedroia and Benintendi 1.6).
     
  7. Beomoose

    Beomoose Member SoSH Member

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    14,486
    Or a MVP(who isn't a pitcher) thread. Wait, would Mitch get disqualified in that case?
     
  8. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    8,001
    Yeah, except apparently it wasn't as obvious that it would be Kimbrel as I thought, so I guess this thread works after all!
     
  9. bobesox

    bobesox lurker

    Messages:
    140
    Both Sale and Pom have 26 starts but Sale has about 40 more innings pitched.

    Bullpen use should be taken into account.
     
  10. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

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    9,426
    Why? No one at all thinks Pom is as good as Sale. This is the thread for second banana honors.

    Pom does have 85 more innings than Kimbrel, and 142 more than Betts.
     
  11. PrometheusWakefield

    PrometheusWakefield Nasty, brutish, and short SoSH Member

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    Pomeranz is the guy who stepped up and made this season happen.
     
  12. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I have some (maybe a lot?) MR bias in me but I'm still shocked it is this close. Are people starting to sour on Mookie or is it mostly because Kimbrel has been that great? Or has the value of MRs been adjusted that much that they could be worth as much as a positional player in 60-70 innings?

    I thought of going with other just to be different and mention Vazquez but was surprised by what I saw. Him and Leon have been worth about the same amount of wins, with Leon doing it all with his glove and Vaz all with his bat.

    Offensively speaking, it seems like all our players are pretty much interchangeable with each other. I know that's not true talent wise, but as far as slash lines go, it is. All our full season regulars (outside of 3b, where we don't have one who qualifies) are putting up OPS numbers between .738 and .792, with our 2 most active bench players in Leon at .666 and Young at .720. I know OPS is a flawed stat and there are much better ones out there but it's still remarkable how similar and indistinguishable they all are. It's possible Christian Vazquez could end up leading this team in OPS if he stays hot. Last 18 games, .439/.484/702 with 4 doubles, 1 triple, 3 HRs, 5bb/9k in 62 PA. Stating the obvious, but the lineup of average hitters works a lot better when at least one of them isn't average and is capable of hitting like Devers or Nunez for the full season.

    I'm starting to convince myself maybe it is Kimbrel or Pomeranz since no one on the offense has really separated themselves with the bat so it would come down to Mookie's glove.
     
  13. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    53,706
    In compiling this list, who ranks higher ... Kyle Kendrick or Chase d'Arnaud?
     
  14. Rovin Romine

    Rovin Romine Johnny Rico Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Kimbrel has appeared in 55 games. He's only allowed a run in eight of them. There's only one blown save resulting in a subsequent loss.

    Pom has been great, but I'd love to see someone do a comparison of Kimbrel's 2017 to the average closer.
     
  15. Minneapolis Millers

    Minneapolis Millers Member SoSH Member

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    For me, the most salient question is who would have been relied upon to do that player's job if he wasn't here?

    I initially thought Kimbrel, and he might still be the answer. I'm not at all confident that the rest of the pen would have solidified as it did if his shutdown arm wasn't there as their safety blanket. Our starting pitching depth, though, also took a beating early on, and if Pom hadn't put up a consistent 5-6 innings of quality work, we might not have enjoyed as many bullpen saves as we have. I'd vote for either over Betts, because I think we could have patched together a better replacement option in the OF than among our pitchers.
     
  16. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I can't wait for the ring ceremony next April when they introduce the players by batting average and fucking Chase d'Arnaud comes out of the dugout first.

    Having said that, Kendrick gave us hope in ST that we had a strong #7 pitching option and he was on the field for many more innings than d'Arnaud was.
     
  17. dbn

    dbn Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    6,913
    Actually, Betts has 1006.3 more innings than Pom.
     
  18. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I'm guessing not as well as you'd think. He's arguably not even the best closer this year.

    edit: And that's not to take anything away from Kimbrel. There are some guys having phenomenal years in the bullpen. It's either him or Fields but guys like Robertson, Rivero, Knebel and Igelsias are having amazing years as well. It's a stacked position.
     
    #18 bosox79, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  19. bosockboy

    bosockboy lurker

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    8,115
    Pomeranz because he compensated for almost nothing from Price and a sub-par year from Porcello. We would have been massively screwed if he didn't step up.
     
  20. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

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    This is basically where I am at, with my slight edge there going to Pom.

    Mookie isn't even in the conversation for me unless we are weighing in on the most disappointing imo, at least while giving Price cop out points for being hurt and having already viewed Porcello's 2016 as a fluke going in.
     
  21. LesterFan

    LesterFan Member SoSH Member

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  22. YTF

    YTF Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Pomeranz hands down IMO. At the beginning of the season he was arguably considered by many as the 5th starter, there were even calls here from some for him to work out of the pen. Look at what the Sox have gotten combined from Price, Porcello, and Rodriguez. Kimbrel a close second I think considering he's been pretty much automatic and not the thrill show that he was last season.
     
  23. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    8,413
    That's a great case for a 10th player award (an award intended for those that exceed expectations), but for second most valuable player? Pre-season expectations shouldn't have much to do with it.

    Pomeranz has been great, but I think Kimbrel's been better. Highest K/BB of his career. Highest K/9 in baseball. Entered a handful of games in the 8th inning early in the year to bail out set-up guys whose appearance of effectiveness was a lot of smoke and mirrors.
     
  24. djhb20

    djhb20 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    And you left out Kenley Jansen, who is the right answer as to the bullpen guy having the best year.
     
  25. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I meant Jansen so I have no idea why I typed Fields or who Fields even is.
     
  26. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Josh Fields is an Astros middle reliever and ex Red Sox prospect..
     
  27. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, he's on the Dodgers actually. So explains the gaff, anyway.
     
  28. soxeast

    soxeast lurker

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    I went with Pomeranz. I think the defensive stats for Mookie are a bit overrated.

    I can't go with Kimbrel. Several games he comes in in the 9th and Sox are ahead by 2 or more runs or he didn't have to face the tougher part of the order or the game when the game was most in jeopardy.
     
  29. mwonow

    mwonow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    3,902
    I'm sticking with Pom for 2VP - and after tonight, I might vote Fister for 10th man
     

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