Which type of plate discipline is eating Panda?
- Thread starter Corleone
- Start date
The Pujols contract, given his likely remaining production, is just...unfathomably bad.
Right now he's put up this line (SSS and all, but the decline is real): .176/.243/.206/.449.
Contract:
2016: 25m
2017: 26m
2018: 27m
2019: 28m
2020: 29m
2021: 30m
It's entirely possible that Pujols will be a below average player this season. Maybe not, but he just might. And then 5 more years at an average of 28 million a year? Holy smokes.
Right now he's put up this line (SSS and all, but the decline is real): .176/.243/.206/.449.
Contract:
2016: 25m
2017: 26m
2018: 27m
2019: 28m
2020: 29m
2021: 30m
It's entirely possible that Pujols will be a below average player this season. Maybe not, but he just might. And then 5 more years at an average of 28 million a year? Holy smokes.
Pablo Sandoval's former trainer Ethan Banning said Sandoval needs a "baby sitter" to help him watch his weight.
"He needs to be smart enough to say there’s problem," said Banning. "It’s not an exercise thing, it’s an eating thing." Banning worked with Sandoval during the 2010 and 2011 offseasons. According to Banning, Sandoval once gained 21 pounds in just 21 days during a trip home to Venezuela. "He loves to be loved by people," said Banning. "And the way that (Venezuelan) culture connects is through food." We're guessing Sandoval's DL stint has much more to do with his weight problems than his injured shoulder. Sandoval's brother has been in touch with Banning so maybe the two will reconnect.
"He needs to be smart enough to say there’s problem," said Banning. "It’s not an exercise thing, it’s an eating thing." Banning worked with Sandoval during the 2010 and 2011 offseasons. According to Banning, Sandoval once gained 21 pounds in just 21 days during a trip home to Venezuela. "He loves to be loved by people," said Banning. "And the way that (Venezuelan) culture connects is through food." We're guessing Sandoval's DL stint has much more to do with his weight problems than his injured shoulder. Sandoval's brother has been in touch with Banning so maybe the two will reconnect.
Well in keeping with the car analogy, unfortunately they didn't insist on the extended warranty (weight clause) that other perspective buyers wanted and settled on the standard 90 day limited warranty because they just HAD to have this well tuned piece of machinery. As pissed as I am over Sandoval's lack of self control/pride/sense of commitment, I blame The Sox for this fiasco. We always hear about the team doing their "due diligence" before making decisions on potential trades or FA acquisitions. The "due diligence" done by many here predicted a continuance of the downward trend that Sandoval was already on. For most of us here this just never made sense.
I love this. 90% of the 'weekend warrior, beer league softball playing types' I ever met would not/did not give everything they had for a shot to play at Fenway Park. In my experience, they couldn't even put in the 8-10 hours a week of sacrifice it took to make themselves into decent ballplayers in High School.
Even an easy target like Sandoval probably puts in more work toward his craft in one year than most of these "I'd give my left nut to play baseball for a living" mooks did in their entire attempt at a career in baseball.. You don't have to give your left nut. You have to sacrifice and work beyond the capacity of almost everyone else out there, plus have the balls to stand in against a legit fastball. There are very few men who meet those criteria.
Of course, you do have to be blessed with way above average eyesight, reflexes and coordination, and that eliminates almost all of us up front. And the fact that Sandoval - or any MLB player - put in so much work doesn't insulate him from criticism. It just renders much of the criticism meaningless.
I just hid a bunch of posts filled with anger and nothing else. Please try to maintain our usual main board standards here. Thanks.
I think you've got a good point here, but the counterpoint is that Pablo Sandoval simply has to put down the spoon.
(I don't say that to minimize what is obviously a serious problem, but a) Sandoval is aware of it, and b) he has the resources to deal with it, even if it required having Josh Hamilton-like intervention and monitoring.)
This may be a false dichotomy. I strongly suspect the back injury that was the death knell to Sandoval's role as the presumptive starting 3B was due to his weight, as it seemed to come up on an ordinary defensive play. This shoulder issue may be a second time where his weight led to an injury while attempting to play.
Factually, a and b are undoubtedly true. But just in sports alone -- where we can assume the resources are available -- failures are common. Look how long it took Hamilton to get right, and even that didn't last. Steve Howe never did. Or closer to the issue at hand -- Mel Turpin. Being "aware of it," and acknowledging that its an issue that requires professional help are two different things. I'm neither a doc or a psych, so the hiding out from the Giants thing may not quite be the same as those who hide food, but it sounded distressingly similar.
To paraphrase Henry Wiggin, from here on in, I dont rag Sandoval.
I think this is right. The trainer's comments imply that this is really a clinical issue rather than some generic, entitled lazy-ass superstar who can't be bothered. Until he recognizes this, making any real progress with him is going to be difficult.
Just listened to Banning on WEEI. He seems genuinely concerned and wants to help, and naturally by extension, get paid again.
Pablo's only two All Star seasons were when he was working with this guy. After he got paid by the Giants he moved on and thought he was above it. Well reality has swiftly changed and there's no WS heroics in the benefit of the doubt section of the ledger with Pablo and the Red Sox. Now for a sensitive guy he's in one of the biggest markets and he's basically been explicitly outed with ,someone who has personal knowledge, as having a Hamilton esque problem with eating.
Management and all of Pablo's people need to get together in the bunker at Yawkey and simply agree to the Sox hiring and getting reports from Banning full time if Pablo ever wants to see regular playing time again. The Sox make it clear he has zero trade market that doesn't involve shipping off prospects in addition to Pablo and releasing him outright isn't going to happen.
Pablo's only two All Star seasons were when he was working with this guy. After he got paid by the Giants he moved on and thought he was above it. Well reality has swiftly changed and there's no WS heroics in the benefit of the doubt section of the ledger with Pablo and the Red Sox. Now for a sensitive guy he's in one of the biggest markets and he's basically been explicitly outed with ,someone who has personal knowledge, as having a Hamilton esque problem with eating.
Management and all of Pablo's people need to get together in the bunker at Yawkey and simply agree to the Sox hiring and getting reports from Banning full time if Pablo ever wants to see regular playing time again. The Sox make it clear he has zero trade market that doesn't involve shipping off prospects in addition to Pablo and releasing him outright isn't going to happen.
I hope its more the fomer than the latter, but my cynicism knows few bounds.
So were the radio guys on the "this guy obviously needs help" side of things, or the "fat, lazy sack of shit" side of things? (I have a feeling I know which way the loudest portions of the public are going to go...)
hey, I have no problem with getting Banning paid as long as he delivers the goods, and by "the goods" I mean a healthy and marketable Panda.
FWIW via Tony Massarotti:
Tony Massarotti @TonyMassarotti 2h2 hours ago
FWIW, hearing that Sandoval may get a second opinion on left shoulder and that he may actually have surgery. @985TheSportsHub @cbsboston
Tony Massarotti @TonyMassarotti 2h2 hours ago
FWIW, hearing that Sandoval may get a second opinion on left shoulder and that he may actually have surgery. @985TheSportsHub @cbsboston
Vin Baker is another immediate parallel I see. Sad to see people squander their talents without getting the right help but people have to be willing to be helped.
I doubt it's a HIPAA issue or anything (though I suppose it's possible), but am I the only one who thinks Banning is way, way out of line going public with this? To me it's only marginally / semantically better than a doctor coming out and disclosing a guy has a drug problem or a mental health issue.
Big weight swings up or down in a short period of time usually have something to do with water weight and not actual fat. When you change your diet heavily in a short period of time, you can put on or take off a lot of retained water. But even if that is half water, it's still a lot of actual fat for that short a period as well.
I'm not sure we know enough to say if this is way, way out of line or simply a guy trying to help his former friend/client.
I can tell you that there is no professional obligation that prevents trainers from talking about their clients, and the comparison you are making is utterly ridiculous, to put it kindly.
One thing about Pablo...
IF his decline is generally related to weight issues, that's a problem that could theoretically be mitigated. You can't teach hand-eye coordination (which he's apparently noted for) but you can improve someone's health and psyche.
That should enter into the thinking of any team willing to entertain some sort of deal, as well as the Red Sox. Sandoval may still have some upside potential which provides a modicum of leverage. Put another way, the worst case scenario is the Red Sox reacting and eating almost all of is (high cholesterol) contract while watching another team pick him up and see him resolve the weight problem (maybe after 1 year)...at least enough to be a league-average player.
I'd hate to see the Red Sox succumb to their own eating disorder.
IF his decline is generally related to weight issues, that's a problem that could theoretically be mitigated. You can't teach hand-eye coordination (which he's apparently noted for) but you can improve someone's health and psyche.
That should enter into the thinking of any team willing to entertain some sort of deal, as well as the Red Sox. Sandoval may still have some upside potential which provides a modicum of leverage. Put another way, the worst case scenario is the Red Sox reacting and eating almost all of is (high cholesterol) contract while watching another team pick him up and see him resolve the weight problem (maybe after 1 year)...at least enough to be a league-average player.
I'd hate to see the Red Sox succumb to their own eating disorder.
Utterly ridiculous? If a guy comes to my office and gets diagnosed with an eating disorder, it would be wildly illegal for me to go on WEEI and disclose that. It's protected health information. The only difference here is the type of license.
Hell, if this guy was working in an integrated shop where players received medical care in addition to fitness help, it's possible he would have already broken the law, depending on how the information was disclosed and what kind of consents were in place.
Surgery might be the best solution for the Sox: he's on the shelf for the year, and he's got the time to address his problem with food, or get under the wing of a trainer. He's a total loss this year. If he gets it together by next spring, he's playable or tradeable. If he forces the issue this summer, he's done. He could play it like Lackey (although Lackey had a bad arm, not a mental condition) and disappear for a summer, and it might work out.
Yes, unless you can point me to the legal statute that protects the confidentiality between fat guys and their trainers, it's utterly ridiculous.
Having said that, you certainly topped yourself by saying "the only difference here is the type of license." (Which makes me want to ask what kind of license you have. A hack license perhaps?)
If the "fat guy" is going to a doctor affiliated with trainers the trainer may have the same confidentiality obligations the doctor does.
As soon as I see evidence that this trainer was an employee of a medical facility and not just some guy who hung around at the gym, I'll agree. And that's the key distinction, because even if a patient is referred to a trainer by a doctor, the trainer is not a covered entity unless he's an employee of the office.
As I said, there's no comparison.
As I said, there's no comparison.
Whats that? Its James Andrews Music!
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 7m7 minutes ago
Source: #RedSox’s Sandoval plans to see Dr. James Andrews for second opinion on his left shoulder.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 7m7 minutes ago
Source: #RedSox’s Sandoval plans to see Dr. James Andrews for second opinion on his left shoulder.
He doesn't have to be a doctor. He doesn't have to be an employee of a doctor or medical facility.
And the OP did say it was unlikely to implicate HIPAA. That said, if you were going to see "some guy hanging out at the gym" to help you shrink your moobs, do you think it would be cool if he went on TV to brag about it, even if it was legal?
He gave some detail on the regimen for Sandoval: personal chef provided to supply 5 meals a day, plus a couple of shakes. So it did work before. I believe he said he worked with Sandoval for ~ 2 years after he was benched in the WS by the Giants..
I have no idea what argument you think you are having with me.
I never said it was OK. I said we don't know what his motives were. Regardless, it wouldn't be acceptable to me if it were my trainer. But I'd also have no recourse.
What I responded to was the notion that there was no practical difference between the obligations of a medical professional and a personal trainer to keep client information confidential. (The difference was described as marginal or semantic. Which to me is no practical difference.) And unless that trainer is an employee of a healthcare provider or has a contractual relationship with a provider that designates him as a business associate of a covered entity, that's false.
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Here is some information on the application of HIPAA to personal trainers if people are interested: http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/the-hipaa-effect
He's also not diagnosing Sandoval, or commenting on any diagnosis or medical condition. He's merely stating his informed, non-medical, opinion of what's going on. "Panda eats a lot and gained a lot of weight once" is not the same as saying Sandoval has an eating disorder, no matter how few dots you need to connect to get there.
A better analogy than a doctor releasing a medical condition would be a former personal assistant coming out and commenting, ostensibly out of concern, on a player's frequent drinking that inhibited his ability to play. Sure, it implies a medical issue that, if one exists and was divulged in another context, would present a legal issue. As applied to the person in question, however, it's probably one of professional ethics.
When the law is concerned, the source of the data is just as important as the content of the data.
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Whether or not HIPAA applies, it's a massive moral problem and a breach of his written code of professional ethics.
https://www.nsca.com/Governance/
Banning is an NSCA certified strength and conditioning specialist, and former state director for AZ for the NSCA.
If its the same injury that Adrian Gonzalez had, his "power" will be zapped for a bit after he returns
And as I said, I would have a problem with it. But no, I don't consider it to be similar to a violation of patient confidentiality.
It's a distinction with a significant difference to me.
I mean, how much is he actually "disclosing" - that Panda has an eating problem? I think that anyone with two functioning eyeballs could give you that diagnosis. I think the trainer is coming from a point of concern rather than malice - he see's that Panda has played his way out of a job/onto the DL and is advocating that he acknowledge his issue and take care of it, as he has been able to do somewhat in the past. He is also helping Panda by reinforcing his belief that it is not an issue of attitude/lack of working out effort but a deeper problem tied to culture, his personality and inability to be honest with himself....
Of some note is back in 2011 the left shoulder injury impaired his righty swing more than his lefty swing.
On a more serious note, I'm leaning more heavily toward the view that Pablo's got a serious eating disorder, and that addressing it is the only way he can turn things around. I grew up in a family with eating disorders and see them as slightly akin to alcohol problems and cigarette addictions (though without the tragic behavioral problems alcohol can result in). Pablo seems like a great guy and I really hope he can beat it.
I was one of those excited when the Sox signed him -- after all, he'd performed well and in BC we trusted. So, yeah, I missed the boat there. I hope it's not to late for him to right the ship. Maybe shoulder surgery and these new revelations will give him a chance to hit the reset button.
I agree that its probably out of concern.
I think details like "21 pounds in 21 days" and hiding him from the Giants during contract negotiations are troublesome.
This:
suggests it is some kind of violation, if not of HIPAA. But like HIPAA, I doubt the NSCA code of ethics provides a private right of action, so there's not much recourse for Sandoval either way. (Not that he is or should be looking for one)
So, I guess the short answer to my original question is, "Yes, you're the only one." Which is fine.
To me there is a difference between discussing something that is readily evident to everyone (Panda is overweight) and revealing diagnostic or clinical information gained in the course of a professional relationship. People are saying that personal trainers don't have the same kind of confidential professional relationships as doctors or therapists, which I understand. And which is why I acknowledged that there is some difference.
But to me the difference is not very big. Because you are still a professional who is learning private and sensitive information about a person in the course of a business transaction. There should be a deference to that individual's privacy, whether there is a strict regulatory standard or not.
Just for context, if I had treated CC for alcoholism in 2003, and I had come out last year and said, "CC has a lifelong problem with alcohol, he needs strict supervision and complete abstinence in order to live a productive life," and went on to describe the treatment regime I used with him in 2003... we all understand that would be illegal and totally unethical, right? Even if I mumbled something afterwards about how I wish him the best and am just trying to make sure he gets the help he needs?
There are some people here who have expressed a belief that Panda's eating problems are an illness on par with depression or substance abuse. If that's true, then he should be afforded the same level of privacy that would accompany those other diagnoses.
The last game he played in, he made a diving stop toward the line - he was shown on camera afterward rubbing his left shoulder and looking quite uncomfortable.