Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
And the other team generally does to. Its 50-50.
Lots of bizarre excuses for this teams poor execution. Sometimes the easiest answer is the right one.
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- Thread starter Stitch01
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And the other team generally does to. Its 50-50.
Lots of bizarre excuses for this teams poor execution. Sometimes the easiest answer is the right one.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Not all teams defer by any means.
I'm not doubting the "answer" I'm doubting the evidence. You have a reasonable thesis but your evidence blows.
At this point the lack of scoring isn't as terrifying as is the fact they can't even manage a first down on these drives.Ed Hillel said:
Stitch01 said:
Yup, just saw that myself. One year (2011 I believe) they kicked off in 15 of 16 regular season games. That's fucking nuts.
Browner will help the secondary a lot. Tyms COULD help the offense supposing that he's given the chance and what we saw from him in the preseason. Having an athletic 6'3" WR on the outside is the kind of thing that could really open up the offense (or, you know, if Aaron Dobson wants to play that role it'd be cool).
CaptainLaddie said:
I'm not trying to be a dick and I would love to agree with you, but I'll believe it when I see it with Browner. I agree that Browner playing press coverage and being a physical presence on the field could help the D. Now maybe it's anger and shell shock from last night, but right now I am expecting Browner to either not see the field or to watch him playing 6-8 yards off WRs that continually blow by him since he won't be able to get his hands on them. That or to watch im passively sit back in a zone and struggle in space.
( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
If the Patriots can't get pressure up front, press coverage will fucking burn them.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Any coverage will burn them without pressure, it's just a question of whether it's a slow or fast burn. I said this elsewhere, but I think I'd honestly rather they try some single-safety coverage with Revis in man and 5 men on the DL than keep along the path they're on. That line is not getting pressure. Between Kelley whining his way out, Armstead retiring, Siliga getting hurt, and Easley looking like a potential bust, they just don't have the personnel. They also have no legitimate 3rd DE to spell Jones and particularly Nink, who looks like a big nothing out there this season (may be playing through injury).
Stitch01 said:
Based on his size and him having 2 surgically repaired knees. I'm not seeing how he's going to be slipping past interior NFL OL or stopping NFL running backs, and the guy has been getting manhandled in his snaps thus far. He looks like a better fit at DE to me than inside. I've been trying to keep an eye out for him when he's out there, and he's looked completely overmatched.
I know he's young, but when you're grading out worse than Joe Vellano, it's not inspiring, even for a rookie.
Way too early to tell on Easley. He's had flashes; in the first game, he made the play that led to the Dennard interception (fiing off the snap and taking out two blockers, which let Hightower get the pressure on the QB).Ed Hillel said:
The problem with the 5-man rush is they were getting carved up by RBs and TEs in the passing game all night last night; take another underneath defender out, and that's only going to get worse. I agree the pass rush is a serious problem. This is the same thing people who thought the Bucs would be good have realized; saying you have a great defense except for your pass rush is another way of saying you have a shitty defense.
That's what's frustrating with this defense. You and some of the others are much better at evaluation than I. However, I hear Chandler is beast!, Collins is so athletic!, Hightower has really taken a step forward!, McCourty is so smart!, and now we have Revis Island! But the sum of the parts isn't quite adding up. I know, I know, through 3 games they were the highest rated defense, but that included some really bad offenses and I saw a lot of the same problems.Super Nomario said:
I'm hoping once the CBs get healthy we'll see more press coverage and allow the front 7 to get more aggressive.
Why can't they get get pressure with four? Is it talent? Scheme? Philosophy? A mix of both?Super Nomario said:
I'm leaning towards scheme and defensive philosophy because this has been the patriots defense's "signature" for quite a while now. I just don't get it. Everyone sits here and says, the defense sucks because they can't get pressure without blitzing. But we say it year after year after year. Bill and his coaches arnt dumb, they see it too, but the approach never changes. I'm left to assume they see something we don't or don't feel that compromising elsewhere to get pressure with four is worth it. Im just confused at this point. How can something that looks so obvious and is done well by other teams be so damn elusive for the patriots?
The front seven has to be good at something, though. If you have great pass rushers but spotty coverage, you can rush three and drop a DL into shallow zones. If you've got great coverage LBs, you can man them up on TEs / RBs and send an extra rusher. If you've got a great run D, you can force the offense into third and long and come after the QB (this is the underrated part of Rex' Ds). If you suck at rushing the passer, covering RBs and TEs, and defending the run, you're just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic at that point.Bongorific said:
I think it's mostly talent. Ninkovich is a decent overall player but below-average as a pass rusher. Jones is fine - he's too inconsistent to be the star many in BBtL seem to think, but he's no slouch. They have no edge rushers behind those two guys, and they have no interior rush.( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
In Week One we saw a lot of 3-man fronts with Jones at DE. That sounds great on paper, because then you create uncertainty about which of Hightower / Collins / Ninkovich / Mayo is going to blitz, hopefully giving you unblocked rushers at times without committing more than a four-man rush. Jones was just brutal in Week 1 in that role, both in run defense and in rushing the passer, and we haven't seen it much the last three weeks (which could be gameplan-related). As a consequence, Hightower's snaps rushing the passer have decreased each week, and he's spent more time in coverage. Hightower looked great the first three weeks but last night he looked like the same shaky player we saw in the first half of last year, chasing an athletic TE around instead of doing things he's good at. I don't think it's possible to play every player in the front seven in the role he's individually best at and have a coherent defense, but I'm not sure they've found the optimal combination. But still, without a third edge rushers or an interior rusher, we're probably talking about marginal gains, not dramatic ones.
get younger and faster u are going to have to replace 4 OL Starters the next 2 years the only safe guys are Julan E Slater Gronk if he takes a pay cut vereen Jimmy g C Jones Mayo Hightower Collins Devin M Dennard maybe L ryan everyone else needs to be replaced by 2017
So I think this post is going to make some other people roll their eyes and it's probably not up to our new fancy football central standards, but I don't care, I've had this thought in my head for a while and want to put it out there.
The thing that bothers me most about the Patriots defense is what looks like from my couch a Ho Hum we are here to play defense type attitude. There is seemingly no agression, no want to, no one playing angry. It just feels so passive. I know we don't like talking about things like intensity, want to, desire and whatnot becuase we can't quantify it or display the difference in a you tube clip, I get that. But when you look at the great defenses past and present in the NFL, their approach to the game just looks different. I'm not talking about talent or technique or really even scheme, but actual approach to playing defensive football. The Seattle's, Baltimore's, Arizona's of the NFL world have defenses that play with a mean, nasty style. It makes my eyes bleed to think that I am actually going to type this word, but those defenses play with a certain swagger. We just don't see that from the New England Patriots. Everythign is ho hum, business like, do your job, trust in the system, don't get too high or get too low.
I'm just not sure how that approach can work without great talent behind it. I don't know where this comes from, it it's coaching, lack of leadership or just the makeup of the defense. The defense's best players, Mayo, McCourty, Revis, Wilfork, Jones are not firey, rah rah guys. Maybe that's by design, maybe thats coincidence.
I might be totally off base here, which is fine, you can tell me to shut up. But somethig just looks wrong with how this team approaches defensive football. I asked up thread if the lack of pressure with a four man pass rush was talent or scheme. It's probably a mix of both, but I can't help but wonder how the talent assembled on this team would perform if there was more of an edge to the unit, an agression, a passion. Maybe it's talent that breeds confience that breeds the look I referred to on those other defenses, I could understand that.
I'll stop now with this, I just wanted to put it out there. This is probably some defense mechanism that knows it would be easier to swallow the defense performing so badly if the effort and will were percieved differently. But I reserve the right to hold out hope that Brandon Browner can bring some that edge to the field, the guy seems to always be pissed off about something.
The thing that bothers me most about the Patriots defense is what looks like from my couch a Ho Hum we are here to play defense type attitude. There is seemingly no agression, no want to, no one playing angry. It just feels so passive. I know we don't like talking about things like intensity, want to, desire and whatnot becuase we can't quantify it or display the difference in a you tube clip, I get that. But when you look at the great defenses past and present in the NFL, their approach to the game just looks different. I'm not talking about talent or technique or really even scheme, but actual approach to playing defensive football. The Seattle's, Baltimore's, Arizona's of the NFL world have defenses that play with a mean, nasty style. It makes my eyes bleed to think that I am actually going to type this word, but those defenses play with a certain swagger. We just don't see that from the New England Patriots. Everythign is ho hum, business like, do your job, trust in the system, don't get too high or get too low.
I'm just not sure how that approach can work without great talent behind it. I don't know where this comes from, it it's coaching, lack of leadership or just the makeup of the defense. The defense's best players, Mayo, McCourty, Revis, Wilfork, Jones are not firey, rah rah guys. Maybe that's by design, maybe thats coincidence.
I might be totally off base here, which is fine, you can tell me to shut up. But somethig just looks wrong with how this team approaches defensive football. I asked up thread if the lack of pressure with a four man pass rush was talent or scheme. It's probably a mix of both, but I can't help but wonder how the talent assembled on this team would perform if there was more of an edge to the unit, an agression, a passion. Maybe it's talent that breeds confience that breeds the look I referred to on those other defenses, I could understand that.
I'll stop now with this, I just wanted to put it out there. This is probably some defense mechanism that knows it would be easier to swallow the defense performing so badly if the effort and will were percieved differently. But I reserve the right to hold out hope that Brandon Browner can bring some that edge to the field, the guy seems to always be pissed off about something.
I don't think you are totally off base with the caveat that its really hard to assess from the outside and we are very prone, as fans, to attributing playing poorly to lack of intensity and playing well to have extra drive and desire. We know that BB thinks emotion and intensity matter from his Football Life episode.
I did find myself thinking on Monday Night that the Pats were missing Spikes more than I thought. I still agree moving on there was the best thing to do, but he did from time to time provide some of what you are talking about in addition to stout run defense and he would have fit in very comfortably with the other LB's chasing Chiefs RB's and TEs from behind after the catch.
I did find myself thinking on Monday Night that the Pats were missing Spikes more than I thought. I still agree moving on there was the best thing to do, but he did from time to time provide some of what you are talking about in addition to stout run defense and he would have fit in very comfortably with the other LB's chasing Chiefs RB's and TEs from behind after the catch.
I will get flack for being a BB apologist....but this has to be part of some plan.
The "Run or Pass this game" thing just screams as "prepping" for the future. Whether that future is game 12-16 or 2016 I dont know. But I cant imagine another reason you handcuff yourself like that.
BB stories tell us he did this in preseason all the time in the past. Why are we seemingly doing it in the regular season now?
This is a HOF coach...he must see this as clearly as we do.
Revis in zone??? Or at least not being utilized like he has in every other stop in his career. Is he or isnt he a lock down CB who can shut down his side of the field? If he is then USE HIM THAT way. If he isnt then why did we sign him? Lost ability? Was it not evident from last years film?
Not running against NASCAR Fronts?
There are so many things about this team that simply makes no sense this year.
The "Run or Pass this game" thing just screams as "prepping" for the future. Whether that future is game 12-16 or 2016 I dont know. But I cant imagine another reason you handcuff yourself like that.
BB stories tell us he did this in preseason all the time in the past. Why are we seemingly doing it in the regular season now?
This is a HOF coach...he must see this as clearly as we do.
Revis in zone??? Or at least not being utilized like he has in every other stop in his career. Is he or isnt he a lock down CB who can shut down his side of the field? If he is then USE HIM THAT way. If he isnt then why did we sign him? Lost ability? Was it not evident from last years film?
Not running against NASCAR Fronts?
There are so many things about this team that simply makes no sense this year.
Agreed.....but come up with a better explanation Stitch?
"Are we gonna run or pass"
Really?
When getting 5+ yards a carry we start passing nearly every down?
Our premier acquisition (and widely considered top 3 at his position) is being used in a way that totally opposite every other expert in the world has ever used him.
Its like if we acquired Megatron and then ran Sweeps because "A guy that big can really block well out in space".
Is it Hubris? Is the HOF coach so enamored with his own brilliance that he says "Screw using a player the same way as everyone else...I am doing it different and going to make it work."
I have often half joked that BB thinks the Draft has a "Degree of Difficulty" rating to it. " I am going to take a guy SO high that everyone scratches their heads....THEN I will win with him, just to prove how smart I am."
I suppose the other possibility is simply our talent sucks.
Like I said just so many things that dont make any sense. THESE are the times that I wish he would someday write a book. I dont care about how many meetings Moss missed or if he really thought Welker or Brady was to blame for the missed catch, or what he knew about AH. (ok I do want to know some of that...) I want to know "why did you use Revis differently then anyone else." "Why did you never juice up the pass rush despite ABSOLUTELY KNOWING that in that era NFL interrupting the passing game was THE thing a defense needs to do. (Because you know....it happened to your own team).
He may have incredibly well considered reasons. And I would love to know them.
"Are we gonna run or pass"
Really?
When getting 5+ yards a carry we start passing nearly every down?
Our premier acquisition (and widely considered top 3 at his position) is being used in a way that totally opposite every other expert in the world has ever used him.
Its like if we acquired Megatron and then ran Sweeps because "A guy that big can really block well out in space".
Is it Hubris? Is the HOF coach so enamored with his own brilliance that he says "Screw using a player the same way as everyone else...I am doing it different and going to make it work."
I have often half joked that BB thinks the Draft has a "Degree of Difficulty" rating to it. " I am going to take a guy SO high that everyone scratches their heads....THEN I will win with him, just to prove how smart I am."
I suppose the other possibility is simply our talent sucks.
Like I said just so many things that dont make any sense. THESE are the times that I wish he would someday write a book. I dont care about how many meetings Moss missed or if he really thought Welker or Brady was to blame for the missed catch, or what he knew about AH. (ok I do want to know some of that...) I want to know "why did you use Revis differently then anyone else." "Why did you never juice up the pass rush despite ABSOLUTELY KNOWING that in that era NFL interrupting the passing game was THE thing a defense needs to do. (Because you know....it happened to your own team).
He may have incredibly well considered reasons. And I would love to know them.
( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
Did you see the tackling on Monday?
If a team is successfully making the routine plays, it will appear to have a "swagger". If it is fucking up the fundamentals, it will appear to be "lacking in intensity."
I guess Im not real sure what the premise is here. I dont think the game plan was very good last week, but I dont really see the need to try and ascribe it to hubris or future planning or degrees of difficulty as much as just the other guys played it and coached it better.bakahump said:
bakahump said:
I think the focus on this is stupid. No matter what, it's not like they're running or passing on every down. If McD had asked a longer version of the question, "Are we focusing on the run or the pass?" - which BB knew is what he fucking meant anyway - we wouldn't be having this asinine discussion.
DrewDawg said:
Christ, yes. I was stunned when they did that, KC had no trouble stringing that out so he couldn't maneuver.
The other guys have played it and coached it better (arguably) 3 times out of 4 this year and multiple time more recently (specifically in the playoffs).Stitch01 said:
And again I ask....why is the Game plan (which you admit was not very good) not very good? Isnt this a good coaching staff? I am still in denial I guess, that our guys AND our coaches can consistently get beaten this year.
Bad coaching? Bad execution? Bad Talent?
The half full crowd are grasping the "Bad execution" excuse. (Hopefully thats our answer....but from my untrained eyes...it seems deeper).
The HOF head coach and (while sometimes questionable usually) successful Assistant coaches wouldnt be the prime suspects normally. (so why the bad Game plans?)
The talent has actually improved in theory.
Of course thats what was meant. I am not saying they meant that they would run every play or pass every play. The point is McD asked "what should we focus on" BB answered, THEN the opponent Defense proceeded to be very successful against that "primary focus". We then did nothing to adapt. Why?
If I say we are going to "focus on Passing" and the defense proceeds to play dime, rush 4 and get to the QB....its time to review that focus and make changes if you want to be successful. Right?
And yet they dont seem to do that.
Again, Why?
You got it. All of the above on Monday night.
I dont think there's going to be the simple magical answer you want here, its a bunch of things. I think an offensive line that can't block even when getting a lot of help is at the core, but its a combination of not being talented enough at some spots, not executing when they have a chance, and poor coaching decisions not putting players in the best chance to succeed.
Why is it that they don't throw the quick slant to WRs anymore? It used to be a key part of their offense, but since game 1, 2013, when Amendola caught several of them in the second half, it seems like it has virtually been absent from their offense. Am I just imagining this, or what gives?
bakahump said:
During Monday Night's travesty that was masquerading as a football game, I recall Gruden mentioning that Belichick hates the new CBA's restrictions on full contact practices, because it leaves players less prepared when the regular season starts. I'm paraphrasing, but it was something along the lines of "Things that you used to figure out in camp or in the Preseason, now you have to figure out during the season."
I wonder if that little tidbit might have touched upon something much deeper than whatever the comment was in reference to at the time (poor tackling, I think it was).
The Patriots under Belichick have had a reputation for successfully executing complex schemes that confuse and overmatch the opponents, first on defense (Dynasty era), then on offense (2007-2011). Those two buckets I just used are clearly a gross undersimplification, with more game-to-game variation on effectiveness than I have represented, but you get the idea. The 2011 offense took off to a Super Bowl-reaching level predominately with players that had been present in 2010 (Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, Lawfirm, Woodhead, and even Deion Branch). We also know that Belichick mentioned going with simpler defensive schemes in 2011 due to the shortened offseason.
I'm wondering if the new practice rules in the 2011 CBA have left Belichick in a position where every offseason is effectively shortened to the point where he can't effectively coach up or sync up new players on either the offensive or defensive side of the ball, just due to a lack of reps. New WRs need more weeks of practice to get the routes down at game speed. Back 7 defenders need more time to try to understand where to be in more complex coverage schemes. New Offensive Lines Don't Know What The Fuck To Do. Tom Brady can't get on the same page with enough WRs to go more than 2-deep into his reads on many plays.
If there is any merit to this theory (I have no idea how one would try to prove this out...consider this idea placed before the floor of the Football Central Council as of this moment), then it seems possible that such a restriction on full reps prior to live game action would disproportionately impact a coach like Belichick, who has shown a persistent ability to design and coach players to execute innovative schemes in concert with how league rules and tendencies have changed. It also might explain why this team seems to get so much more effective late in the season over the last few seasons, and partly help us understand why this year's team looks so awful with some new players being integrated along the OL, at TE, and at WR.
It just seems that something more than talent is the underlying problem here, it's horribly sloppy execution. Execution tends to be refined in practice, as I understand it, and the practice routines in the NFL offseason, preseason, and regular season were significantly changed back in 2011. It might seem like Belichick is "prepping for the future" to some posters because he doesn't really have a choice, given the way his coaching mind works, and how little time he is given to work with the on-field talent.
JMDurron said:
If the 2011 changes affected BB more than other coaches, they had a funny way of showing it by making it to the AFCCG in both the 2012 and 2013 seasons.
It's true, though, that BB spends a lot of time complaining about it. There was a quote somewhere this week about it again, so for a guy who never ever whines, he is a bit whiny about it. And, frankly, in sort of an irritating way -- everyone has the same rules, so nothing is changed in terms of competitive balance. It's the same as an injury or a bad penalty call: move on (to Cincinnati, or whereever).
And if it does somehow effect the Pats disproportionately (I'm not saying I think it does -- I doubt it), then, again, deal with it: simplify things. My binky Pete Carroll has a relatively simple scheme in Seattle, I doubt it's due to less prep time (indeed, the Hawks were busted for cheating on practice time -- if that had been the Pats....), but if it is then more power to him for adapting.
And if it does somehow effect the Pats disproportionately (I'm not saying I think it does -- I doubt it), then, again, deal with it: simplify things. My binky Pete Carroll has a relatively simple scheme in Seattle, I doubt it's due to less prep time (indeed, the Hawks were busted for cheating on practice time -- if that had been the Pats....), but if it is then more power to him for adapting.
Not sure if I have seen this mentioned anywhere. I haven't watched any coaches film, but it seemed like through the first four games, the tight ends really weren't running any seam routes - the old Gronk/Sweetleaf combo special. But on Sunday night, it seemed like they finally unleashed Gronk (as well as Wright) up the seam. And they had a ton of success doing so. Wright's two big catches were up the seam, and he caught all five of his targets.
So my question is, were they running the seam play before, but just not effectively? Or did they bring it back on Sunday night?
So my question is, were they running the seam play before, but just not effectively? Or did they bring it back on Sunday night?
I think the seam play is usually a zone beater, especially off play-action, and teams have been running more man. As Mark noted in his passing preview, the Bengals play a lot of soft Cover 2. I haven't checked the tape, but I'm guessing they pulled that play out for that look.tims4wins said:
Yeah, the seam route is best run against zone in the secondary, man under. So the TE off the line beats an LB before a safety can get there. Tougher matchup against, say, Cover 1 when the TE is matched up against a SS off the line.
That being said, they have run these looks in previous games, missing them a few times. Brady hit LaFell on one such route against Oakland off play action. The route structure works in conjunction with the running game. On Wright's TD they got Lamur (a very good cover LB) out of position with the run fake. If the ground game is working, expect to see more of those routes.
That being said, they have run these looks in previous games, missing them a few times. Brady hit LaFell on one such route against Oakland off play action. The route structure works in conjunction with the running game. On Wright's TD they got Lamur (a very good cover LB) out of position with the run fake. If the ground game is working, expect to see more of those routes.