USMNT: To Rüssia With Love

Infield Infidel

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Hey, I found sf121's alt account. The players who knocked the US out, Romell Quioto and Roman Torres, guess what league they play in. I'll give you a hint; it's the same league as Alberth Elis, Johan Venagas, and soon Carlos Vela. Why isn't dragging the rest of Concacaf down?
Except US and Mexico it's dragged everyone else up. It's kind of like how in college football more money made the normally crappy teams decent to good. Vanderbilt and Duke aren't automatic wins anymore. Depending on a particular fan's perspective that's a good thing or bad thing.
 

Silverdude2167

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Hey, I found sf121's alt account. The players who knocked the US out, Romell Quioto and Roman Torres, guess what league they play in. I'll give you a hint; it's the same league as Alberth Elis, Johan Venagas, and soon Carlos Vela. Why isn't dragging the rest of Concacaf down?
MLS has done a great job of raising the level of play in CONCACAF, but its level of play is far below the top European leagues. USMNT players should strive to be in Europe not playing in Toronto. This should not even be up for debate.
 

Joe D Reid

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There's an entire generation of missing talent. The best player in his prime years now is Cameron (who didn't play; if he has anything less than polio somebody done fucked up). There is no international-caliber midfield player in his prime. They tried to qualify by duct-taping the tail end of the Howard/Dempsey team (Beasley!) to the young kids coming up and it didn't work.

So, now...

Fire Gulati, the only guy who has been around long enough to be involved in grooming the missing generation. Reboot the player pool with the goal of getting them ready for prime time at the Gold Cup. And find a coach with experience coaching up younger players.

Oh, and root for Iceland.
 

Senator Donut

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Except US and Mexico it's dragged everyone else up. It's kind of like how in college football more money made the normally crappy teams decent to good. Vanderbilt and Duke aren't automatic wins anymore. Depending on a particular fan's perspective that's a good thing or bad thing.
That's a fair viewpoint. I guess you could argue MLS brings up nations like Costa Rica and brings down the US to some level in between. I disagree; we've been clearly worse than the Ticos for two cycles now.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Anybody currently involved in US Soccer should be off limits for any position of importance within US Soccer moving forward.
 

Cellar-Door

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Hey, I found sf121's alt account. The players who knocked the US out, Romell Quioto and Roman Torres, guess what league they play in. I'll give you a hint; it's the same league as Alberth Elis, Johan Venagas, and soon Carlos Vela. Why isn't dragging the rest of Concacaf down?
Umm, who says it isn't? I don't totally buy the "it's all MLS' fault" argument, but the class of CONCACAF are Mexico and Costa Rica,
Only 1 of CR's best players is in MLS (maybe 2 if you go real deep on "best players"), the rest: Real Madrid, Sunderland, Sporting, Deportivo, Celtic.
Mexico: Liege, West Ham, Frankfurt, Porto, Roma, Betis, Sociedad, Benefica (and yes 1 MLS guy in Dos Santos)
 

Clears Cleaver

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I should be pissed but reality is after watching the premier club teams play the last two years, watching the US was a chore. They suck. They would be a relegation candidate in the PL.

It's like being a college basketball fan your whole life and then watching the NBA for the first time and going...wow, these teams are not very good.

It's too bad because I love the World Cup and rooting for USA. But this team had no chance of advancing out of group.
 

lars10

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yes and no. He deserved to be fired sure. Problem is that Arena was just woefully incompetent, the modern game passed him by many years ago and he refused to adjust. We had the same abysmal tactical problems through the Hex. If there is one thing worse than throwing shit at the wall constantly and hoping something sticks it's taking something that you should know is terrible then being surprised when it doesn't work over and over again.
I added an edit to say that Arena was clearly not the answer.

But I also think JK was a woefully inadequate manager and system developer who played 100 different lineups of players.. without actually ever settling on any players..other than Germans... and then blamed Donovan, the MLS, the player pool etc. when he had a lot of control and deserved much of the blame. Taking four players to the WC over 32 when you say you're trying to develop and have no shot of winning etc. he should have been let go as soon as he came home as any major soccer power would have done. Then you let a new coach (not Arena) start the next cycle. Klinsman never set up a system, but was all too eager to see faults in anyone else IMO
 

Vinho Tinto

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Wow Twellman is having an epic rant. I think he has used embarrassing 50x
A rant that is relegated to ESPN News because they are showing preseason NBA and poker on the main stations.

As badly as qualifying has been, I didn’t think this would happen. What a disaster. This is only going to get uglier as it will be every USA Soccer suit for himself.

I wonder if Julian Green stayed up late to watch.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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God, I miss those 5 minutes where I at least saw the fun in an Australia/USA "Battle of the Countries Who Are Very Self-Conscious About Their Weird Top Flight Leagues".
 

lars10

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I don't see how it could have mattered.
Well.. the US did have about four or five solid chances in the second half..or more. Losing 4-5 minutes more is a big deal (I know they'd never put up more than 7 probably). Has anyone seen an angle where the first panama goal went in?

Edit: it so clearly does not.. man Concacaf is a joke (although the US still sucked)
 

dirtynine

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It did not go in. No angles exist because it physically didn't happen.

(That's soccer, and I damn well would have taken it for the US.)
 

InstaFace

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I should be pissed but reality is after watching the premier club teams play the last two years, watching the US was a chore. They suck. They would be a relegation candidate in the PL.
Could you name more than 3 international teams who wouldn't be? That's an unfair standard. Shit, Toronto FC might beat the USMNT. Apples and oranges.
 

Cellar-Door

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Well.. the US did have about four or five solid chances in the second half..or more. Losing 4-5 minutes more is a big deal (I know they'd never put up more than 7 probably). Has anyone seen an angle where the first panama goal went in?

Edit: it so clearly does not.. man Concacaf is a joke (although the US still sucked)
yeah it didn't.
On the other hand if you can't drawT&T in 95 minutes you shouldn't go to the world cup. Also your manager, Federation head, youth development staff should be fired, your domestic league should shut down and you should burn all your stadiums to the ground and salt the ashes.
 

Blue Monkey

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A rant that is relegated to ESPN News because they are showing preseason NBA and poker on the main stations.
Amen. The state of soccer in this country is in serious flux. Everything Twellman said was absolutely true. US soccer is worried about trying to be competitive with the Germans and and the Portugals of the soccer world and can't even beat T&T???? 90% of the country couldn't even watch the game on their TV tonight... being relegated to find a fucking stream to watch the game. It took me to the 25th minute to find one that worked at all let alone decently. It's a small thing but it represents a much larger problem here. How are people supposed to get into the sport when you can't even fucking watch it?
 

finnVT

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Between rooting for this team, the Revs, and Sunderland, I think I'm going to start watching cricket.
 

soxfan121

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I added an edit to say that Arena was clearly not the answer.

But I also think JK was a woefully inadequate manager and system developer who played 100 different lineups of players.. without actually ever settling on any players..other than Germans... and then blamed Donovan, the MLS, the player pool etc. when he had a lot of control and deserved much of the blame. Taking four players to the WC over 32 when you say you're trying to develop and have no shot of winning etc. he should have been let go as soon as he came home as any major soccer power would have done. Then you let a new coach (not Arena) start the next cycle. Klinsman never set up a system, but was all too eager to see faults in anyone else IMO
It was never about the coach. It is, and always will be, about the talent pool.

Who are the great players Klinsmann and Arena left home? (Ignoring the Cameron/Johnson situations, which might be complicated by their clubs for all we know) Which players in the pool, be they German or MLS, weren't given a chance?

The talent problem predates Klinsmann and Arena by a decade or two. Either coach was doomed to fail, whether they played 100 lineups or they played binkies like Omar Gonzalez despite repeated failures in search of "consistency". They were both poor, but they were poor because the talent pool was shallow.

And the best players in the pool stopped developing, or regressed. Some was due to age but some was the result of poor career decisions by the players and their own lack of effort. The players who should have been the foundation of this cycle - Bradley, Altidore - too often were not as good as it appeared they might be. The best players on this team were the youngest - Yedlin, Pulisic - so maybe the talent is going to get better and this won't happen again.

Sir Alex Ferguson in his prime might have dragged this group of underachievers to qualification. Blaming the coach, either coach, ignores the real problem.
 

Titans Bastard

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It was never about the coach. It is, and always will be, about the talent pool.

Who are the great players Klinsmann and Arena left home? (Ignoring the Cameron/Johnson situations, which might be complicated by their clubs for all we know) Which players in the pool, be they German or MLS, weren't given a chance?

The talent problem predates Klinsmann and Arena by a decade or two. Either coach was doomed to fail, whether they played 100 lineups or they played binkies like Omar Gonzalez despite repeated failures in search of "consistency". They were both poor, but they were poor because the talent pool was shallow.

And the best players in the pool stopped developing, or regressed. Some was due to age but some was the result of poor career decisions by the players and their own lack of effort. The players who should have been the foundation of this cycle - Bradley, Altidore - too often were not as good as it appeared they might be. The best players on this team were the youngest - Yedlin, Pulisic - so maybe the talent is going to get better and this won't happen again.

Sir Alex Ferguson in his prime might have dragged this group of underachievers to qualification. Blaming the coach, either coach, ignores the real problem.
I posted about this a little while back and my friend Brian expanded on the idea in a recent article here:

http://americansoccernow.com/articles/the-missing-years-u-s-soccer-s-development-gap

Basically the birth years from 1990 to 1994 were really barren for US-developed talent. Nagbe (90), Wood (92), Yedlin (93), Morris (94) is basically it. Chandler (90) and Brooks (93) don't count because Germany developed them.

This is the group of players who would be age 23-28 in 2018, so basically what should be the core of the team. I don't have a good understanding of why we had the opposite of a golden generation here. I do think that the rising generation is better. They've certainly done better at the YNT level than the 90-94 youth national teams, who were generally poor.
 

moly99

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My hope is that the next stage is to pick a European coach (Sam Allardyce come on down!) and federation president. Then stock the team full of players in Europe like Perry Kitchen to satisfy the Europhiles who think MLS is the problem.
 

InstaFace

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in the 3rd quarter of the super bowl, when I sold my sporting soul to the sports devil for a comeback, I never imagined the comeuppance would extend to national teams as well.
 

Titans Bastard

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Tab Ramos somehow combines the worse aspects of Klinsmann (players forced out of their natural position) and Arena (tactical stubbornness)
I don't know how Tab Ramos' name gets occasionally floated for the NT job. He is not qualified.

We do need an interim manager, though. I expect Arena to resign, but if not he needs to be fired. We, sadly, have plenty of time until 2022. Let's not make a rushed or panicked decision about the next manager. It would also be unwise to make a final choice until the USSF President issue is settled. Gulati must face his reckoning.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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My hope is that the next stage is to pick a European coach (Sam Allardyce come on down!) and federation president. Then stock the team full of players in Europe like Perry Kitchen to satisfy the Europhiles who think MLS is the problem.
Allerdyce isn't European enough, I would not accept it.

Sam Allerdici, however, I would be on board for.
 

trekfan55

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Yeah, he's taken flak from us the last year or two, and been a pretty good sport about it.

At least Australia can still qualify at the expense of Honduras.
4 years ago, USA equalized in stoppage time and took us out of the playoffs. That was more painful to me than any Red Sox losa by far. Fair game and passed.

This victory was better than anything I remember. Again, I never wanted to qualify at your expense, we just needed a win. I truly hope that Honduras loses. I dislike them, and I cannot stand Pinto.
 

Titans Bastard

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My hope is that the next stage is to pick a European coach (Sam Allardyce come on down!) and federation president. Then stock the team full of players in Europe like Perry Kitchen to satisfy the Europhiles who think MLS is the problem.
I'm actually all for a non-American coach, mostly because I think MLS has a growing number of decent coaches but nobody who jumps out as outstanding. There are a few guys who might take the next step over the next few years, but that's not a gamble the USSF should make. We need to come back strong from this.

The key is having the personnel in place who can hire a quality foreign manager and not be suckered by another charlatan.
 

Infield Infidel

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This is just really hard to take. I've been a fan of US Soccer since way before it was cool. I probably became a member on SOSH, because of my posting in Gazza as opposed to anywhere else.

I remember the Panama v. USA game in Seattle, and remember seeing the place full of USA fans and I thought back on qualifiers I'd been to where it was tough to fill two sections full of USA fans and it was deeply moving. I remember feeling so good that night, and thinking that soccer was finally arriving. The future just seemed so bright.

It just seems completely ripped apart in the last 10 minutes. I don't have any interest in assigning blame. Who fucking cares. I'm just fucking gutted. Absolutely gutted. When fireworks were going off in the stadium in Orlando last week, I remember distinctly feeling, "ok, it has been a rough ride, but the character of this gritty team finally showed itself." I can't believe that was just four days ago. Fucking hell. This. Fucking. Sucks.
I'm in the same boat man, but I'm thinking that I as a fan and they as a team believed they could just show up and get a result today.

I've been a fan since just after 1994 Cup. I barely paid attention to it. But I got into it a year or so later. My mom was a housekeeper at a hotel that lots of teams stayed at when they played at the old Foxboro Stadium. NFL teams went there all the time and paid no mind. USMNT played there, asked if she had kids (my brother and I were teenagers), and gave her a bunch of gear: shorts, polos, tear-aways, socks, hats, gym bags. It was really awesome, and from then on my brother and I have both been fans. We literally bought FIFA '96 a week later. Him and his wife are big into youth soccer now and both his sons play (his youngest is insane about it.) They have season tix to the Revs. I went to South Africa for the WC and the Slovenia match is the best sporting I've been too. I'm pretty gutted. Meaningless games for two years. This better be a big reboot

#givethekeystoEarnie
 

Cellar-Door

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My hope is that the next stage is to pick a European coach (Sam Allardyce come on down!) and federation president. Then stock the team full of players in Europe like Perry Kitchen to satisfy the Europhiles who think MLS is the problem.
Big Sam would have an ugly qualification sewn up early.

The real answer though is you go get the last manager to take an also-ran and rebuild it in his image all the way down and turn it into a respectable competitor:


 

SoxFanInCali

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4 years ago, USA equalized in stoppage time and took us out of the playoffs. That was more painful to me than any Red Sox losa by far. Fair game and passed.

This victory was better than anything I remember. Again, I never wanted to qualify at your expense, we just needed a win. I truly hope that Honduras loses. I dislike them, and I cannot stand Pinto.
Congrats, and celebrate it. You've been a great sport considering you went through the equivalent of the Buckner play 4 years ago. Nobody here that's worth anything is going to begrudge you enjoying this moment.
 

canderson

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Serious question: when Germany failed to qualify in 2000 every German soccer-related organization and group got together to create an organizational plan that carried through from the Bundesliga 2 all the way to the national team.

Would MLS even play nicely to the USSF for that to begin to happen?
 

Jimy Hendrix

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My dream would be a TD who is honestly pretty Klinnsmann-y (big vision, a bit of an agent provocateur) and a manager who knows what they are doing.

also a US Soccer Federation with the ability to implement anything

and a Pony
 

Titans Bastard

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Serious question: when Germany failed to qualify in 2000 every German soccer-related organization and group got together to create an organizational plan that carried through from the Bundesliga 2 all the way to the national team.

Would MLS even play nicely to the USSF for that to begin to happen?
Speaking of the USSF.....

 

SoxFanInCali

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Serious question: when Germany failed to qualify in 2000 every German soccer-related organization and group got together to create an organizational plan that carried through from the Bundesliga 2 all the way to the national team.

Would MLS even play nicely to the USSF for that to begin to happen?
This would be more helpful if MLS was responsible for youth development like club sides are in other countries. With us, the entire development system is flawed. Pay-to-play will never get us top athletes, only ones from affluent families.
 

Investor 11

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Sunil is probably on the phone already with Netherlands and Chile. Then he just has to wait for a few of the UEFA playoff results and he'll find a way to make some sponsors and people some money and keep his job with his own side tournament.
 

moly99

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Serious question: when Germany failed to qualify in 2000 every German soccer-related organization and group got together to create an organizational plan that carried through from the Bundesliga 2 all the way to the national team.

Would MLS even play nicely to the USSF for that to begin to happen?
It depends upon what the changes are. The very obvious difference is that fussbal in Germany is practically a religion and teams have the money to invest heavily in youth development. Up until very recently that was not the case in MLS. Now they are investing in academies to create team depth.

But for the most part youth player development is not handled by MLS. It is handled by soccer moms and dads, and that is where the rot really begins in the US.

I do not think that MLS will play ball on pushing their American starters to Europe, though. I remain unconvinced that Michael Bradley and Jozy Altidore would be superstars if only they were playing in Scotland or the Netherlands. People who feel that way are likely going to continue to be pissed at MLS.
 

Titans Bastard

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So there's some random lawyer who is running against Gulati, but the sense I get is that he isn't really a serious candidate.

I'm really curious to see who comes out of the woodwork now. In the USSF there's historically been a strong tendency to not be introspective and to not ruffle feathers. This is a different situation. Will we see a respected and reasonable executive, former player, or someone of that ilk come out of the woodwork? (I said respected and reasonable, so Eric Wynalda doesn't count.)

I hope so. Please.

Gulati's timidity and unwillingness to acknowledge problems was a joke under Klinsmann and it's even worse now.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Bob Ley and Twellman just spent 15 minutes on SportsCenter making me feel that no matter how bad I think this was, it's actually worse.