Unconventional Bullpen Usage

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
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Sep 9, 2008
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So, for those who weren't watching the day game between the Rays and the Yankees today, Kevin Cash upped the ante on his unconventional bullpen usage. He's been using relievers in early innings at times this year, and he's also put pitchers in at position spots to keep them in the game, but today he did both in pretty much optimal circumstances. His starter was traded before the game, so he started the game with his best bullpen reliever other than his closer, Stanek, to try to get the top of the order, before going to the long man. He cobbled together the 5th through the 8th. In the 8th, with a 2-run lead, the Yankees got first and third with a lefty on the mound and Stanton and Torres coming up.

Cash brings in Romo to face the righties. Romo has a lot of innings on his arm, and a five out save against the Yankees is a pretty big ask, though he has gone as much as 2.0 innings a couple of times this year. Anyway, he gets his two batters, but gives up a sac fly, and it's a one run game. Rays don't score in their half.

Now it gets interesting. With Bird (a lefty) up facing Romo, Cash moves Duffy, his 3B to short, and puts Romo at third base. They go into the shift, with Romo taking third base. Venters -- who has a very pronounced platoon split and has only given up 4 hits all year to lefties -- pitches to Bird. Bird pulls a grounder and is put out. Duffy goes back to third, Hechavarria takes SS (his natural position), entering the game for Venters, and Romo moves back to pitcher. He has a bit of a rough go due to an error but eventually completes the save.

Romo actually qualified for both a hold and a save, though can't get both, and you end up with a weird box score where a pitcher who entered the game after the guy who gets the save also gets a hold.

This to me is really some next level managing. The situation needs to be pretty perfect to make a move like this. Once Venters in announced, he has to face a batter. So if the Yankees have a tough RH batter and the ability to play 1B without Bird in the game, it won't work. Their only real option was to PH Walker there, I guess, who is a switch. But it's not exactly like Walker is tearing it up from either side of the plate and so Cash was probably ok with Walker for Bird there. You need to feel fairly confident that Romo can field third base in a pinch even against a lefty, for example if Bird tries to bunt. Given that Bird does not really go oppo much, though, Cash was prepared and likely knew that this was the spot in the lineup to give it a try. And, last, you need a 3B or SS on the bench who can come in and take the defensive spot to allow your pitcher to go back up to the mound. It's also a bit of an all-in move. Cash was not well positioned if the Yankees had tied the game and extra innings were required, but with much of his bullpen already spent, it was not an unreasonable gamble.

All that said, I don't think this was a unique situation that has no application to future games or circumstances. I think there's something here. Worth watching at least.
 

SouthernBoSox

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I think having specialized relievers against the best hitters is going to become more and more common. I also think having starting pitchers face an order 3 times will all but cease to exist.

Starters and relievers will start becoming very blurry lines.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think that's probably correct. And we could end up having to change conventional ideas about lineup construction in order to adapt.

I wonder how far it will go. For example, does it change the way teams perhaps think about the 25th man on the bench and positional flexibility in order to be able to hide a pitcher at a position spot and then put him back up on the mound? My instinct is no, but once you hit September and you are playing games that matter with all sorts of extra players on the bench, it could get interesting.
 

joe dokes

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I recall a game where Davey Johnson, who was underratedly ahead of his time in such things, flipped righty Roger McDowell and lefty Jesse Orosco between pitcher and OF to keep them both in the game.

I would think that Cash thought it through enough that if NYY used a RH pinch hitter, they'd consider moving Romo elsewhere.

One question.....does the "pitcher has to face one hitter" rule apply if the pitcher stays in the game at another position? I assume the answer is "yes," but never really thought about it in this context.
 

charlieoscar

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Sep 28, 2014
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In the 1950s it wasn't rare to see pitchers playing another position for a batter so they could come back to the mound (handedness thing) but this game from a later date was one of the wilder examples of players being switched. Jose DeLeon was the previous days starting pitcher and the switches were made in an attempt to keep him away from batted balls. Alas, the winning double by Ken Griffey, Sr., was hit to LF DeLeon.

May 14, 1988, Braves at Cardinals
Top of 16th
Jose Oquendo moves from 1B to P
Duane Walker moves from LF to 1B
Jose DeLeon replaces Randy O'Neal (P) playing LF batting 1st

with two outs, runners on 1st and 2nd, top of 16th
Tom Brunansky moves from RF to LF
Jose DeLeon moves from LF to RF

Top of 17th
Jose DeLeon moves from RF to LF
Tom Brunansky moves from LF to RF

with one out, runner on 1st, top of 17th
Tom Brunansky moves from RF to LF
Jose DeLeon moves from LF to RF

Top of 18th
Jose DeLeon moves from RF to LF
Tom Brunansky moves from LF to RF

with two outs, no runners, top of 18th
Tom Brunansky moves from RF to LF
Jose DeLeon moves from LF to RF

with two outs, runner on 1st, top of 18th
Jose DeLeon moves from RF to LF
Tom Brunansky moves from LF to RF

with two outs, runners on 1st and 2nd, top of 18th
Tom Brunansky moves from RF to LF
Jose DeLeon moves from LF to RF

Top of 19th, no runners, one out
Jose DeLeon moves from RF to LF
Tom Brunansky moves from LF to RF

with one out, runner on 1st, top of 19th
Tom Brunansky moves from RF to LF
Jose DeLeon moves from LF to RF

with two outs, runners on 1st and 2nd, top of 19th
Jose DeLeon moves from RF to LF
Tom Brunansky moves from LF to RF
 

jon abbey

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So if the Yankees have a tough RH batter and the ability to play 1B without Bird in the game, it won't work. Their only real option was to PH Walker there, I guess, who is a switch.
Walker started the game plus NY had already pinch-hit twice. They did have Drury on the bench, but not sure if he was available after getting hit by a pitch and leaving the game last night (contusion, day-to-day).
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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One question.....does the "pitcher has to face one hitter" rule apply if the pitcher stays in the game at another position? I assume the answer is "yes," but never really thought about it in this context.
The rule says the following: "If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire-in-chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher."

It's a little ambiguous. You could make the case that the first clause would not be met in a case where the pitcher stays in at another position. He wasn't "replaced." But I think the subsequent idea of a "substitute pitcher" makes clear that the first clause has an implied "as the pitcher" at the end. In other words, I think the language means, "if the pitcher is replaced [as the pitcher], the substitute pitcher shall . . . . " Not entirely free from doubt, though.

Walker started the game
I missed that. Makes it even better for Cash.
 
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VORP Speed

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All of this comes from up top, just like it did with Maddon. It still takes a very skilled manager to implement the strategies in real time and a particular mindset to buy into the analysis and put yourself out there with unconventional moves, but it’s also a firm requirement to get/keep the Rays job, so that makes it a little easier.
 

The Raccoon

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I think having specialized relievers against the best hitters is going to become more and more common. I also think having starting pitchers face an order 3 times will all but cease to exist.

Starters and relievers will start becoming very blurry lines.
The problem I see with replacing the concept of a starter with a group of specialists, who pitch somewhere between 0.1 - 3.0 innings is the sheer number of total innings you have to cover over a full season of baseball.
A (good) starter should give you 5-7 innings every 5 games, equaling to more than 1 inning per game (Chris Sale led the MLB in 2017 with 214.1 total innings = 1.32 innings p.g.).
Even if we reduce that a bit, because not every SP is named Chris Sale (and because the starting pitcher may have some very short starts or skips the occasional game), there is no way, that relievers can get even close to this number. There are only a handfull relievers that get to 80+ innings for a full season.
I have a hard time imagining a strategy, where you divide the 9 innings between 2-4 guys, who pitch 1-3 innings (plus the occasional loogy). Doing it once or twice a week like the Rays may work, but certainly not every day for a full season with only a 25 man roster.
 

DanoooME

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I think having specialized relievers against the best hitters is going to become more and more common. I also think having starting pitchers face an order 3 times will all but cease to exist.

Starters and relievers will start becoming very blurry lines.
I'm okay with this if it kills wins and losses for pitchers
 

Mike F

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Speaking of interesting pitching maneuvers, many years ago I saw Gene Mauch bring in a lhr to pitch to a rhh with runners on and 1st base open. Phil Rizzuto was amazed. The pitcher then intentionally walked the hitter and was due to face a rhh with notoriously bad splits v. rhp. If the NYY pinch hit a lefty, the current pitcher had already faced his required hitter and could be replaced by lefty with great l v l splits.
PS Rizzuto opined that Mauch had brought the guy in early to "get more warmup pitches."
Thanks to.WPIX