Ty Law Among 2017 HOF Finalists

jsinger121 · Jan 3, 2017

Biggest snubs are probably Torry Holt and Jimmy Johnson.

8slim · Jan 3, 2017

Not that I'm treading new ground here but the NFL HOF process makes no sense. 4-time pro bowler Joe Jacoby makes the finalist cut, while 8-time pro bowler Chris Hinton does not. Terrell Davis gets a finalist nod even though he only had 4 highly productive years, while Edgerrin James, who had 9 highly productive years does not.

pappymojo · Jan 3, 2017

Jerry Jones is going to be in the Hall of Fame before Jimmy Johnson - proof that the process is flawed.

alydar · Jan 3, 2017

Peter King must be weeping, he had such a man-crush on Hines Ward. Had him as one of his two receivers on his all-decade team (along with Randy Moss): http://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/12/12/nfl-decadeteam

bsj · Jan 3, 2017

My first instinct was that Mecklenberg was someone that belonged on that finalist list. But really, while I remember him being very good, it was really only over about a 4-5 year stretch he was at a truly exceptional level. Not nearly enough to get there.

coremiller · Jan 3, 2017

alydar said:
Peter King must be weeping, he had such a man-crush on Hines Ward. Had him as one of his two receivers on his all-decade team (along with Randy Moss): http://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/12/12/nfl-decadeteam

God that Ward pick is dreadful. There's a good argument that Ward wasn't even one of the 10 best receivers of that decade (Moss, Owens, Harrison, Holt, Wayne, A. Johnson, Steve Smith, and Fitzgerald were all pretty clearly better IMO, and Boldin and Chad Johnson have good cases as well).

kelpapa · Jan 3, 2017

coremiller said:
God that Ward pick is dreadful. There's a good argument that Ward wasn't even one of the 10 best receivers of that decade (Moss, Owens, Harrison, Holt, Wayne, A. Johnson, Steve Smith, and Fitzgerald were all pretty clearly better IMO, and Boldin and Chad Johnson have good cases as well).

This quote from that article is awesome:

...but Ward has 24 more catches than Terrell Owens in this decade, though Owens has 41 more touchdowns and 1,700 more receiving yards.

Dehere · Jan 3, 2017

If I could be a fly on the wall in one meeting a year I would pick the meeting of the HOF voters. Last year the night before the Super Bowl I had dinner with one of the voters and he described the nominating speeches and debates in detail and it was riveting. I'm tempted to say the whole thing should be on TV but the cameras would probably ruin it. I like the process and I rarely have an issue with the selections. The best of the HOF processes IMO.

Merkle's Boner · Jan 4, 2017

Dehere said:
If I could be a fly on the wall in one meeting a year I would pick the meeting of the HOF voters. Last year the night before the Super Bowl I had dinner with one of the voters and he described the nominating speeches and debates in detail and it was riveting. I'm tempted to say the whole thing should be on TV but the cameras would probably ruin it. I like the process and I rarely have an issue with the selections. The best of the HOF processes IMO.

I'd love to hear why you think that. I have always had the opposite view, due to its secrecy and the small number (I think less than 40) of voters.

JokersWildJIMED · Jan 4, 2017

Merkle's Boner said:
I'd love to hear why you think that. I have always had the opposite view, due to its secrecy and the small number (I think less than 40) of voters.

I agree with this as the small number (one from each NFL city and 16 at large voters) puts tremendous influence into certain individuals with strong oratory / persuasion skills. For example, Ira Kaufman of Tampa Bay has been a proponent of Buc players, and has been a successful advocate. However, the Patriots the rep is Borges...enough said.

NortheasternPJ · Jan 4, 2017

pappymojo said:
Jerry Jones is going to be in the Hall of Fame before Jimmy Johnson - proof that the process is flawed.

I think Tony Dungy getting in proved this out already.

I'm surprised that Edge isn't a finalist, he was a beast for a large number of years and could catch the ball as well.

PaulinMyrBch · Jan 4, 2017

Is there a first year eligibility bias like in baseball for the slam dunk guys? Or does the football HOF approach it if you're deserving they don't necessarily make you wait year after year.

Gunfighter 09 · Jan 4, 2017

NortheasternPJ said:
I think Tony Dungy getting in before Tom Flores proved this out already.

I'm surprised that Edge isn't a finalist, he was a beast for a large number of years and could catch the ball as well.

Made the first sentence more complete and I completely agree on Edge.

You can also make a strong argument for Roger Craig. He was a truly game changing player in how he was successfully utilized in Walsh's offense, serving as a lead back, an incredible blocker and the best receiving back of his day. So many statistics from the 80's and 90s don't really mean much anymore, but Craig and Marshall Faulk are still the only running backs to have a 1,000 receiving season. He had two season with more than 2K yards from scrimmage and was a four time pro-bowler with one All Pro year. Those numbers were likely suppressed by confusion over whether he was a full back or tail back during his prime in San Francisco. He was an incredibly important piece on three Super Bowl Champions and his top ten closest career comps include five HoFers.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CraiRo00.htm

Al Zarilla · Jan 4, 2017

Gunfighter, thanks for the Roger Craig pitch. A unique back for sure, rushing and receiving, and he had to share the ball with the likes of Jerry Rice, John Taylor, et al. I'd like to see Craig get in someday. That high knee action running style of his was fun to watch.

coremiller · Jan 4, 2017

Gunfighter 09 said:
Made the first sentence more complete and I completely agree on Edge.

You can also make a strong argument for Roger Craig. He was a truly game changing player in how he was successfully utilized in Walsh's offense, serving as a lead back, an incredible blocker and the best receiving back of his day. So many statistics from the 80's and 90s don't really mean much anymore, but Craig and Marshall Faulk are still the only running backs to have a 1,000 receiving season. He had two season with more than 2K yards from scrimmage and was a four time pro-bowler with one All Pro year. Those numbers were likely suppressed by confusion over whether he was a full back or tail back during his prime in San Francisco. He was an incredibly important piece on three Super Bowl Champions and his top ten closest career comps include five HoFers.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CraiRo00.htm

Craig's problem is he had no longevity. Almost all his career value is tied up in six seasons. And for an all-peak guy, he just wasn't dominant enough. Is one dominant year (1988), 2-3 excellent ones, and 2-3 more good ones a HOF career, especially at a position that's probably over-represented in the Hall? Not for me, and I'm a 49ers guy.

Infield Infidel · Jan 4, 2017

Gunfighter 09 said:
Made the first sentence more complete and I completely agree on Edge.

You can also make a strong argument for Roger Craig. He was a truly game changing player in how he was successfully utilized in Walsh's offense, serving as a lead back, an incredible blocker and the best receiving back of his day. So many statistics from the 80's and 90s don't really mean much anymore, but Craig and Marshall Faulk are still the only running backs to have a 1,000 receiving season. He had two season with more than 2K yards from scrimmage and was a four time pro-bowler with one All Pro year. Those numbers were likely suppressed by confusion over whether he was a full back or tail back during his prime in San Francisco. He was an incredibly important piece on three Super Bowl Champions and his top ten closest career comps include five HoFers.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CraiRo00.htm

Yeah. His 92 catches in 1985 led the league and was 5th all-time and was the record for RBs for 10 years until the immortal Larry Centers broke it. Craig and Faulk aren't the only RB with 1000 yrd receiving in a season, (Eric Metcalf and Lionel James, maybe others), BUT they are the only two with 1000 yards receiving AND also had 1000 yards rushing in the same season. Craig also was the first player to score three TDs in a Super Bowl game, and of course won three Super Bowls.

coremiller · Jan 4, 2017

Also re Craig, an interesting comp for Craig is Terrell Davis, who also has a tricky HOF case. Davis is also an all-peak guy. Davis' peak was even shorter than Craig's (4 years vs. 6), but he was considerably more dominant in those four years: an MVP, 2 OPoY awards (Craig had one) 3 1st team all-pros (Craig had one) at the same time Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith were in the league, and huge postseason value -- Craig was ok in the postseason, but Davis is probably the best postseason RB ever. In 8 postseason games, Davis had 204 rushes for 1140 yards (5.6 Y/C, 142.5 Y/G) and 12 TDs, while being the best player on two Super Bowl teams and picking up a Super Bowl MVP award.

I'm not sure I'd vote for Davis either, his career may have just been too short. But I think Davis has a better case than Craig.

Gunfighter 09 · Jan 4, 2017

Infield Infidel said:
Yeah. His 92 catches in 1985 led the league and was 5th all-time and was the record for RBs for 10 years until the immortal Larry Centers broke it. Craig and Faulk aren't the only RB with 1000 yrd receiving in a season, (Eric Metcalf and Lionel James, maybe others), BUT they are the only two with 1000 yards receiving AND also had 1000 yards rushing in the same season. Craig also was the first player to score three TDs in a Super Bowl game, and of course won three Super Bowls.

Yes, of course, in cleaning up some shitty grammar I took out the key phase. Craig and Faulk are still the only two to have a 1K rushing & 1K receiving year in the same season. I am looking for it on Youtube, but the other part of Craig's contribution that sticks out to me is his importance as a blocker, as I saw Walsh note in an interview. His pass protection blocking was probably just as important as his contribution as a passing outlet to the 80's 49ers passing offense.

And, of course, it should be stated that all three of Edge, Davis and Craig are marginal cases right on the edge of Hall of Fame or "Hall of very, very good". They are always going to be the 4th or 5th guy elected in any year that they are chosen. Even if he retires this off season, I think Frank Gore will probably fall into this group as well, seeing how he is now in the top ten all time in yards from scrimage. Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn are probably just a step below these four. Ladanian Tomilson is obviously a complete step above the guys we are talking about here and should be a first ballot guy this year.

Marciano490 · Jan 4, 2017

Gunfighter 09 said:
Yes, of course, in cleaning up some shitty grammar I took out the key phase. Craig and Faulk are still the only two to have a 1K rushing & 1K receiving year in the same season. I am looking for it on Youtube, but the other part of Craig's contribution that sticks out to me is his importance as a blocker, as I saw Walsh note in an interview. His pass protection blocking was probably just as important as his contribution as a passing outlet to the 80's 49ers passing offense.

And, of course, it should be stated that all three of Edge, Davis and Craig are marginal cases right on the edge of Hall of Fame or "Hall of very, very good". They are always going to be the 4th or 5th guy elected in any year that they are chosen. Even if he retires this off season, I think Frank Gore will probably fall into this group as well, seeing how he is now in the top ten all time in yards from scrimage. Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn are probably just a step below these four. Ladanian Tomilson is obviously a complete step above the guys we are talking about here and should be a first ballot guy this year.

Gore should get some respect one of these days. His counting stats are getting up there, as you noted, and he's played with average-ish QBs pretty much his entire career, including now.

Vinho Tinto · Jan 4, 2017

8slim said:
Not that I'm treading new ground here but the NFL HOF process makes no sense. 4-time pro bowler Joe Jacoby makes the finalist cut, while 8-time pro bowler Chris Hinton does not. Terrell Davis gets a finalist nod even though he only had 4 highly productive years, while Edgerrin James, who had 9 highly productive years does not.

I think it was either Eddie Epstein or Rob Neyer who made the distinction between the baseball and football hall of fames. Baseball's is primarily stat based, while football leans heavily towards players on title winning teams. In your example, you see two players who won NFL titles being placed above players with better careers.

Rudy's Curve · Jan 4, 2017

He has no shot, but I'd consider Dillon. 4.3 career YPC, over 13,000 yards from scrimmage and 89 TDs which came mostly on awful Bengals teams. He also averaged 4.2 YPC in eight playoff games and was an elite player on a SB champion. It's an absolute travesty that he has no shot while Bettis is in, but that's what happens when one guy was a media darling for one of the league's flagship franchises and the other guy was an asshole.

dbn · Jan 4, 2017

I hadn't thought about Roger Craig in a while. He was indeed a fun guy to watch run the ball. I just enjoyed viewing a few minutes of highlights on youtube.

Between Craig and Marcus Allen leaping over defenses into the end zone, the 80s were are fun time to watch west-coast RBs.

NortheasternPJ · Jan 4, 2017

dbn said:
I hadn't thought about Roger Craig in a while. He was indeed a fun guy to watch run the ball. I just enjoyed viewing a few minutes of highlights on youtube.

Between Craig and Marcus Allen leaping over defenses into the end zone, the 80s were are fun time to watch west-coast RBs.

I had some serious original Tecmo Bowl flashbacks due to this post

Devizier · Jan 4, 2017

Is that a ranked listing? Because Owens, Faneca, and Mawae are a lot more deserving than most of the guys ahead of them.

dbn · Jan 4, 2017

NortheasternPJ said:
I had some serious original Tecmo Bowl flashbacks due to this post

Funny you mention that. I also watched some Allen highlights and learned that Marcus threw the key block on the play where Bo Jackson ran over Bozworth.

coremiller · Jan 4, 2017

Marciano490 said:
Gore should get some respect one of these days. His counting stats are getting up there, as you noted, and he's played with average-ish QBs pretty much his entire career, including now.

Average-ish is way overrating the QBs he played with early in his career.

SF pass offense DVOA rank, 2006-2010 (his age 23-27 seasons, so basically his prime): 26, 32, 26, 22, 24.

I watched those teams -- those passing games stank. SF's QBs were Alex Smith (playing hurt a lot of the time), Shaun Hill, Troy Smith, Trent Dilfer, and J.T. O'Sullivan. Ugh.

dbn said:
I hadn't thought about Roger Craig in a while. He was indeed a fun guy to watch run the ball. I just enjoyed viewing a few minutes of highlights on youtube.

Between Craig and Marcus Allen leaping over defenses into the end zone, the 80s were are fun time to watch west-coast RBs.

Craig had a really unique running style where he kicked his knees up really high. Supposedly he got the habit from running hurdles in high school.

joe dokes · Jan 4, 2017

dbn said:
I hadn't thought about Roger Craig in a while. He was indeed a fun guy to watch run the ball. I just enjoyed viewing a few minutes of highlights on youtube.

Between Craig and Marcus Allen leaping over defenses into the end zone, the 80s were are fun time to watch west-coast RBs.

I wonder if Rathman was the last fullback to get 100 carries in a season.

coremiller · Jan 4, 2017

joe dokes said:
I wonder if Rathman was the last fullback to get 100 carries in a season.

EDIT: Mike Tolbertt did it, not this year, but as recently as 2013.

Freddy Linn · Jan 4, 2017

joe dokes said:
I wonder if Rathman was the last fullback to get 100 carries in a season.

Mike Alstott did it six times with a high of 242 carries.

alydar · Jan 4, 2017

Problem with HoF for football, as others have noted, is that the counting stats are less relevant (certainly less powered, at any rate) than in baseball, and I'd argue that the awards (MVP, ProBowl, etc.) are even more arbitrary. I mean, most MVPs go to QBs, and Brady is pretty widely acknowledged as the GOAT, and he has only 2 (and in looking it up, it reminded me that Manning has FIVE... JFC). So, I think, the football HoF becomes even more an exercise in comparison to others at the position who played at the same time by those who saw it at the time, i.e. the porn definition of you know it when you see it.

As an example (and this is an admittedly arbitrary one):
Andre Johnson has 14,185 receiving yards, 1066 receptions, and 70 TDs
Larry Fitzgerald has 14,389 receiving yards, 1125 receptions, and 104 TDs

So Fitz is better, by these stats, but hardly worlds better. Yet Fitz is a no-brainer HoF to me, but Johnson isn't even close. I can't even verbalize why that is without punditizing -- he played the game the right way, or some shit like that.

jsinger121 · Jan 4, 2017

alydar said:
Problem with HoF for football, as others have noted, is that the counting stats are less relevant (certainly less powered, at any rate) than in baseball, and I'd argue that the awards (MVP, ProBowl, etc.) are even more arbitrary. I mean, most MVPs go to QBs, and Brady is pretty widely acknowledged as the GOAT, and he has only 2 (and in looking it up, it reminded me that Manning has FIVE... JFC). So, I think, the football HoF becomes even more an exercise in comparison to others at the position who played at the same time by those who saw it at the time, i.e. the porn definition of you know it when you see it.

As an example (and this is an admittedly arbitrary one):
Andre Johnson has 14,185 receiving yards, 1066 receptions, and 70 TDs
Larry Fitzgerald has 14,389 receiving yards, 1125 receptions, and 104 TDs

So Fitz is better, by these stats, but hardly worlds better. Yet Fitz is a no-brainer HoF to me, but Johnson isn't even close. I can't even verbalize why that is without punditizing -- he played the game the right way, or some shit like that.

Andre Johnson is going to get into the hall of fame. Bank on it. He put up great stats, was durable, pro bowler, all pro and he did so without a super star QB throwing to him. His list of QB's was David Carr, Matt Schaub, TJ Yates and Case Keenum. Johnson was a beast.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 4, 2017

jsinger121 said:
Andre Johnson is going to get into the hall of fame. Bank on it. He put up great stats, was durable, pro bowler, all pro and he did so without a super star QB throwing to him. His list of QB's was David Carr, Matt Schaub, TJ Yates and Case Keenum. Johnson was a beast.

It's not like Fitz had great QBs either. A couple years of Warner and Palmer but outside of that, garbage. I know you're not comparing the two here, but I'm not sure the QB argument means much there and I think WR stats have become so inflated with rule changes and offensive trends. There's just a lot more passing and it's been like that.

I'm not sure where I fall on Johnson - he was indeed a beast - but he doesn't comp to Fitz in my opinion and Fitz ain't done yet. He likely will end up something like 300 catches, 2500 yards and 45+ tds more. Minimum. That's nothing to scoff at.

Erik Hanson's Hook · Jan 5, 2017

alydar said:
As an example (and this is an admittedly arbitrary one):
Andre Johnson has 14,185 receiving yards, 1066 receptions, and 70 TDs
Larry Fitzgerald has 14,389 receiving yards, 1125 receptions, and 104 TDs

So Fitz is better, by these stats, but hardly worlds better.

The yards and receptions are close, but isn't 70 tds vs. 104 tds rather significant? Although that could be accounted for by having a few years with good Warner and good Palmer, verses the dreck Johnson played with.

lars10 · Jan 5, 2017

Papelbon's Poutine said:
It's not like Fitz had great QBs either. A couple years of Warner and Palmer but outside of that, garbage. I know you're not comparing the two here, but I'm not sure the QB argument means much there and I think WR stats have become so inflated with rule changes and offensive trends. There's just a lot more passing and it's been like that.

I'm not sure where I fall on Johnson - he was indeed a beast - but he doesn't comp to Fitz in my opinion and Fitz ain't done yet. He likely will end up something like 300 catches, 2500 yards and 45+ tds more. Minimum. That's nothing to scoff at.

I think ones view of Johnson is probably tainted because we've seen his declining years and him losing his speed. In his prime he was as feared a receiver as any elite receiver.

joe dokes · Jan 5, 2017

Freddy Linn said:
Mike Alstott did it six times with a high of 242 carries.

Completely forgot about Alstott (and Tolbert).

Devizier · Jan 5, 2017

I think Fitzgerald (9 pro bowls, 1 first team all pro) gets in. Andre Johnson probably does as well (7 pro bowls, 2 first team all pro).

Pretty much everyone else (Bruce, Holt, Ochocinco, etc.) has a borderline case.

GregHarris · Jan 5, 2017

So what are the chances for Law? Well, his career AV is 113 and here are some others:

Ronnie Lott: 161
Deion Sanders: 151
Rod Woodson: 192
Aeneas Williams: 136
Darrell Green: 150

Long shot.

Devizier · Jan 5, 2017

GregHarris said:
So what are the chances for Law? Well, his career AV is 113 and here are some others:

Ronnie Lott: 161
Deion Sanders: 151
Rod Woodson: 192
Aeneas Williams: 136
Darrell Green: 150

Long shot.

Not enough longevity although he accrued more honors than I remembered.

I think he's a long shot, too. Especially with some of the defensive backs that still haven't made it (and probably never will).

Nator · Jan 5, 2017

Ty Law is the best defensive back on that list, for what it's worth.
He was the best cornerback in the NFL in '98 and '03. Both of these were his 1st team All-Pro Seasons.
He was Peyton Manning's 3rd leading receiver* in the 2003 AFC championship game.
He had a game altering (and if you think about it, maybe a history of the NFL altering) interception for a touchdown in Superbowl 36. Totally changed the complexion of that game. It is an iconic NFL moment, in my homerish opinion.

The 4 guys I think that he is battling with are:

Tomlinson: No question he gets in.
Owens: He was a 5 time all-pro 1st team. 3rd in all time TD receptions at 153. One of the best receivers in his era, despite being a massive drama queen. In.
Taylor: 3 time all-pro 1st team, currently 7th all time in sacks at 139.5. Should be in.
Mawae:. 3 time all-pro 1st team, had a long career from 1994-2009, and had a stretch with the Jets where he was the dominant center in the league. Should go in, but it is a crowded OL field on that list.

The meatball homer football fan in me says he'll get in. But intellectually, I am not sure he gets through.

*Tied with Brandon Stokley, Troy Walters, and Marvin Harrison.

GregHarris · Jan 5, 2017

Aeneas Williams is actually not a bad comp. Law has only two less interceptions, and was injured 9 games in his prime (2004) and another 8 games over the seasons. Williams started 16 games for 10 of the first 11 season he played (15 as a rookie). That's pretty amazing actually.

So if Law could get back that seasons worth of games he missed in his prime, their AVs might be fairly equal.

Marciano490 · Jan 5, 2017

I wonder how the Hall will treat Patriots players generally. Is a guy like Law helped by his connection to the dynasty, or hurt by the perception that the Patriots were a bunch of lesser skilled players who won through grit and teamwork and coaching?

Tyrone Biggums · Jan 5, 2017

Hines Ward is not a HoFer. I don't care what Peter King says. Excellent WR (dirty too) but no way he should be in before TO.

Holt and JJ definetly. Jimmy Johnson should have been in immediately. There is no cowboys dynasty without him.

I don't think this will happen. But guys like Shank And Borges running stories about the Patriots cheating doesn't help perception at all when people are voting on Pats players who played for Bill.

Devizier · Jan 5, 2017

Marciano490 said:
I wonder how the Hall will treat Patriots players generally. Is a guy like Law helped by his connection to the dynasty, or hurt by the perception that the Patriots were a bunch of lesser skilled players who won through grit and teamwork and coaching?

I think it helps more than hurts. Visibility matters.

Zach Thomas, who played 13 years, made 7 pro bowls and was selected first team all-pro 5 times. He is 9th all time in AV among linebackers. Not even a semi-finalist this year.

pappymojo · Jan 5, 2017

Perhaps not related to the thread, but for discussions sake: which defensive player from the Patriots that played in any year from 2001 through 2007 is most deserving of the hall of fame? I feel like there are quite a few who like Law were very good but not quite good enough for the Hall of Fame, but then again the team itself was so good.

tims4wins · Jan 5, 2017

Probably Rodney Harrison based on overall body of work (not counting Junior Seau here).

Second up for me would be Bruschi, Seymour, or Wilfork, I think.

JokersWildJIMED · Jan 5, 2017

pappymojo said:
Perhaps not related to the thread, but for discussions sake: which defensive player from the Patriots that played in any year from 2001 through 2007 is most deserving of the hall of fame? I feel like there are quite a few who like Law were very good but not quite good enough for the Hall of Fame, but then again the team itself was so good.

Probably Seymour gets in, and maybe Law, with Rodney, and McGinest close but not quite.

Ty Law Among 2017 HOF Finalists

polka king

polka king

@jsinger121

has trust issues

Member

Member

Renegade Crazed Genius

Member

Costanza's Hero

Member

Member

Blinded by Borges

Member

Don't touch his dog food

wants to be caribou ken

Member

Member

teaching korea american

Member

wants to be caribou ken

Urological Expert

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

polka king

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

@jsinger121

Homeland Security

Member

Member

Member

Member

beware my sexy helmet/overall ensemble

Member

Member

beware my sexy helmet/overall ensemble

Urological Expert

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion

Member

Member

PN23's replacement

Blinded by Borges

polka king