Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

Tulo Traded to Toronto

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by Greg29fan, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,908
    After taking a hard second look at Tulo's contract/#'s this year (the latter which have gone up quite a bit since i last checked in May), and noticing that fairly weird drop in salary the final guaranteed season ($14m), i'm actually going to retract some on my above statement.  
     
    What's left is better then the contract we just gave Hanley at market, and Tulo isn't being moved off SS.  I can see a little more logic on the Toronto side if they were projecting that the last 2 years of Reyes was going to look fairly ugly.
     
  2. mwonow

    mwonow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,758
    I think this is a great trade for the Jays. Reyes has no business playing SS in the ML - he can still hit, and run in the odd times when he isn't hurt, but he's done in the field.
     
    This team is starting to remind me a lot of the old Sox - "maybe we can't pitch much, but we'll mash you to death!" Works fine until you run into teams with deep pitching and good defense, as those of us old enough to remember the Orioles with Palmer/Cuellar/McNally/etc. have seen...
     
  3. Toe Nash

    Toe Nash Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,391
    I disagree with just about all of this.
    1. Jays are only committed to Martin and Tulo long term. They have decisions to make on FAs but I don't think the contract impacts them much.
    2. They have a better run differential than the Yankees, so they actually may be as good. If they can sneak into the playoffs they can make some noise.
    3. They didn't give up any of their best young pitchers. We know what happens to prospects... A lot of them don't do anything.
    4. They still could use pitching, sure, but mostly relief and maybe a back end starter. That can be found. Their offense is insane and this deal improved their defense too.
     
  4. mwonow

    mwonow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,758
     
    Definitely. Reyes is now a DH in an ex-SS's body
     
  5. Snoop Soxy Dogg

    Snoop Soxy Dogg lurker

    Messages:
    374
     
    I understand they gave up Hoffman (#3 prospect in March, according to MLB.com) and Castro (#5, according to mlb.com).
     
    Edit: conficting reports as to whether Hoffman is included.
     
  6. LuckyBen

    LuckyBen Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,396
    Mlbtraderumors saying Castro, Hoffman, and Tinoco.
     
  7. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    39,500
    Tulo has played 351 games in the last 3 1/2 seasons (his 27-30 seasons). Is he really a good bet to play more than 100 games per year from his age 31-35 seasons now that he is moving to the turf of Toronto? 
     
    Still not a bad gamble, I guess, if Reyes really is that bad on D now. 
     
  8. MakMan44

    MakMan44 stole corsi's dream SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,310
    https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/625992760445804545
     
    mets are said to have no interest in bringing back jose reyes. diminished play & $56M thru '17 makes it a tough sell.
     
  9. MakMan44

    MakMan44 stole corsi's dream SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,310
    hear 4th player going to colorado is rhp jesus tinoco. so it's tulo & hawkins for reyes, castro, hoffman & tinoco. #tulo
    https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/625976220660989952
     
  10. Toe Nash

    Toe Nash Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,391
    Yeah, but they held onto Norris (top 20 overall), Hutchison, Sanchez (both under 25 and already in the rotation) and don't forget about Stroman.
     
  11. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    19,658
     
    They also haven't been in the post-season since 1993. At some point they have to cash in their chips and go for it. 
     
    Edit: And AA and Gibbons are on the hot seat, both don't care if any of the prospects do anything in Colorado. This was a save-their-job move. 
     
  12. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
     
    (1) Reyes' defense has declined, but so has Tulo's.  Do most defensive metrics suggest that Tulo is a major defensive upgrade over Reyes or a slight defensive upgrade over Reyes?  What defensive metrics are we talking about?  My take is that Tulo is a slight defensive upgrade over Reyes but we aren't talking about Ozzie Smith here.
     
    (2) the most valuable commodity in this deal is Hoffman.  He may never make it, of course, but he has the potential to be a cost controlled front line starter.  In contrast, Tulo's contract will soon turn into an albatross (and the Blue Jays probably won't be able to keep him at SS for the duration of the contract) and Reyes is vastly overpaid.  I prefer Tulo over Reyes as a player, but I would rather have Reyes' contract--50 million dollars less and thus easier to move (both players, of course, are injury prone and thus bad news from that vantage point too, but Tulo has probably missed more games than Reyes and has probably had more serious injuries as well).  If the Rockies include money, I think they can trade Reyes' contract.  It is going to be harder for the Blue Jays to do that with Tulo's contract particularly in one or two years.
     
  13. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    33,099
     
    Sox have already played most of their BJ games this year.  3 home, 3 away left
     
  14. canderson

    canderson Fomenting voting confusion and angst since 2016 Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,233
    Toronto is switching to grass this off-season, right? 
     
    That might make this move a little better for them, because Tulo on turf would probably be a disaster. 
     
  15. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    39,500
  16. canderson

    canderson Fomenting voting confusion and angst since 2016 Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,233
    Oh, well strike that thought then. He simply cannot stay healthy, and unlike the Vic deal Toronto isn't winning the WS this season to make it all a wash in the end IMO. 
     
  17. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
     
    They probably won't even make the playoffs.  Yet they give up a guy who could have been the top pick in the draft if not for T.J. Surgery (Hoffman), and they take on an extra 50 million in exchanging two declining shortstops.  But like it was said above, the Blue Jays front office is desperate--they are probably gone if they don't make the playoffs.
     
    The Rockies have to be thrilled: added a high ceiling arm and a less onerous contract.
     
  18. MakMan44

    MakMan44 stole corsi's dream SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,310
    Toronto has the best offense in baseball. Bolded doesn't seem to be a lock if they get in. 
     
  19. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
    Just saw that the Blue Jays and Yankees play each other 13 more times this year.  LOL.  Still, statistically, how many more wins does Tulo provide the Blue Jays in two months?  One game?  Two at the most?
     
  20. Sox and Rocks

    Sox and Rocks Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,578
    I like this trade for the rocks, especially if they can flip Reyes for more. Hoffman is a good get
     
  21. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,204
     
     
    Wouldn't that be the argument against nearly every deadline deal?
     
     
     
    Anyway, Toronto getting more hitting is like the Colts signing another WR.
     
     
  22. MakMan44

    MakMan44 stole corsi's dream SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,310
    Dave Cameron disagrees. 
     


     
  23. jmm57

    jmm57 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,250
    3 games out of the WC with 60+ left and they have the best run differential (by 20) in the AL. Seems to me they have a pretty good shot at making it to at least a wild card game.
     
  24. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,716
    going from 6-7 to 8-5, for example, v. MFYs, is a 4 game swing between the teams. Plus they have 7 v. Orioles left. I think the Twins fall out of it and 2 from the East still make it (w/Astros).
     
  25. rembrat

    rembrat Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    35,999
     
    That doesn't really work as an analogy.
     
  26. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    33,561
    “@Ken_Rosenthal: As @JeffPassan wrote, #Rockies’ players upset with team’s handling of Tulo. Exec: “You do lose something when you lie to your superstars.””
     
  27. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
    I guess the Blue Jays still do have a decent chance for a wild card.  I could see the Twins falling off and the Blue Jays winning the wild card.  Then again, the Tigers might be the team that plays well over the final two months and wins the second wild card.  The Blue Jays have been losers for so long now--I don't trust them very much.
     
    Mayo on the three young arms acquired by the Rockies:
    http://m.rockies.mlb.com/news/article/139213112/rockies-get-3-rhp-prospects-for-tulowitzki
     
  28. ehaz

    ehaz Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,064
    Found this about LaTroy. I was shocked to be reminded that ageless man is still pitching.  Seems like an incredible dude.
     
     
  29. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    39,500
     
    But it's not just about this year, their whole offensive core is under control for 2016 too. Bautista and Encarnacion have relatively cheap club options, Martin and Tulo are on long-term deals, and Donaldson still has a few more years of arb control.
     
  30. BCsMightyJoeYoung

    BCsMightyJoeYoung Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,032
    I'm not really seeing this as a deadline type deal. You can make a case for it if you think Toronto had completely soured on Reyes. If they felt they HAd to get ride of him then the only way that would be possible was to take on another onerous contract. And in this case there's the happy coincidence that the onerous contract belongs to a really good player who directly replaces Reyes.

    Still .. That's a huge commitment to a player who can't stay on the field.
     
  31. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    10,568
    The DH will help with that. The Jays have other guys to rotate through there, of course, but Tulo being able to save his legs a few days a week is a huge change from what he could expect in the NL.
     
  32. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
    Reyes' OPS against RHP: .741
    Tulo's OPS against RHP: .770
     
    But there is a big difference against lefties.
    Reyes' OPS against LHP: .613
    Tulo's OPS against LHP: .986
     
    I haven't been able to find an artilcle that compares both players defensively.  Tulo is better defensively but is he a slight upgrade or major upgrade?  The Blue Jays better hope for the latter.  The problem is, Tulo's defense has declined too. 
     
    I don't know what we should think about a team that has a good run differential and yet is one game under .500.  Some would no doubt argue that the Blue Jays record is due to bad luck.  Another perspective on the matter: the Blue Jays are a dysfunctional team -- the parts don't fit together -- and this is why they are playing .500 ball notwithstanding a superior run differential.
     
  33. FanSinceBoggs

    FanSinceBoggs seantwo SoSH Member

    Messages:
    937
     
    If that is the case, the Blue Jays superior run differential has limited predictive value in terms of yielding better results in the standings: they will continue to blow out lesser pitching and lose close games against better pitching.
     
  34. SydneySox

    SydneySox A dash of cool to add the heat SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,476
    Maybe just three awful years, but worth noting at least that NY has absolutely owned Tulo since 2013 - dude only has one hit against them in all that time!!
     
  35. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    39,500
    So unnecessary.
     
  36. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers SoSH Member

    Messages:
    27,644
     
    Or, you know, there will be some regression and they'll win games at a rate similar to what their run differential would indicate going forward? Nah, couldn't be. Clearly their run differential is an anomaly and tells us nothing.
     
  37. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    39,500
    Bumping the original trade thread...

    They got 197 games out of him in the first two seasons, 0 in the third season, and released him before seasons 4/5. The guys they gave up look like duds too, and they did come back and win the 2015 AL East, but still a lot of money for very little production.
     
  38. crow216

    crow216 Dragon Wangler SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,257
    I'd pick him up and see what he has in spring training. Guy was an absolutely monster
     
  39. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    He hasn’t OPSed over .777 since 2014. He’s toast. You’re right though, prob worth a spring training invite but I wouldn’t expect much. Dude was a beast but short shelf life.
     

Share This Page