Trading Rondo...

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Brickowski said:
Rubio is better defensively.  Rondo doesn't give a shit on defense unless he can pad his stats by getting a steal.  
 
Basically Rondo vs Rubio is a wash, even down to the fact that they both turned down extensions for more than either one is worth. 
 
Seriously, who would you rather have in a playoff game?
 

swingin val

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,162
Minneapolis
The salary floor should never be a consideration in these conversations because 1) there technically isn't even a penalty for not reaching it, and 2) even if there was a penalty it isn't too difficult to give someone a large one year deal to reach it.
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
The penalty is that the shortfall is distributed to the other players on the roster.  I don't know if they get equal shares or get paid pro rata in accordance with what each one is making.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
Brickowski said:
The penalty is that the shortfall is distributed to the other players on the roster.  I don't know if they get equal shares or get paid pro rata in accordance with what each one is making.
 
.... So? There's a penalty for not making the floor. That it goes to players is a good thing unless you're a billionaire owner of a major US sports team.
 
Blacken said:
It's always funny when Brick thinks he's psychic.
 
I haven't watched enough Rubio to speak to his defense, but the claim that Rondo is lazy on D is simply wrong. I know this because I, too, watch the games. And also because many people smarter than me say he's a good-to-very good perimeter defender.
 

swingin val

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,162
Minneapolis
Brickowski said:
The penalty is that the shortfall is distributed to the other players on the roster.  I don't know if they get equal shares or get paid pro rata in accordance with what each one is making.
Which is not a penalty at all for the owner is paying out the exact same amount of money
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
zenter said:
 
.... So? There's a penalty for not making the floor. That it goes to players is a good thing unless you're a billionaire owner of a major US sports team.
 
 
I haven't watched enough Rubio to speak to his defense, but the claim that Rondo is lazy on D is simply wrong. I know this because I, too, watch the games. And also because many people smarter than me say he's a good-to-very good perimeter defender.
He gambles too much, going for steals.  He doesn't stay between his man and the basket.  Last year he took too many possessions off.  He is certainly capable of being a very good perimeter defender, but I don't think he has been that good, at least not recently.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
zenter said:
 
.... So? There's a penalty for not making the floor. That it goes to players is a good thing unless you're a billionaire owner of a major US sports team.
 
 
I haven't watched enough Rubio to speak to his defense, but the claim that Rondo is lazy on D is simply wrong. I know this because I, too, watch the games. And also because many people smarter than me say he's a good-to-very good perimeter defender.
Agreed on the penalty not really being a penalty.

Who are these smarter people that claim this? Rondo has always been terrible at defending the high screen-n-roll but wasn't exposed until KG and Perk, both who were exceptional at the show, no longer covered up this weakness. I felt this was pretty widely known and reported as such.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
zenter said:
I haven't watched enough Rubio to speak to his defense, but the claim that Rondo is lazy on D is simply wrong. I know this because I, too, watch the games. And also because many people smarter than me say he's a good-to-very good perimeter defender.
They lied to you.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Interesting chat on Rubio's defense from a forum similar to this one.

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/107618-article-analyzing-ricky-rubios-defense-or-lack-thereof/

If you google "Ricky Rubio defense," you'll find a bunch of stuff in the same vein. Suffice it to say that saying Rubio is an exceptional perimeter defender is a debatable assertion, not an articulation of conventional wisdom.

I consider myself bearish on Rondo, but I don't think there's a coach in the NBA who would rather have Rubio than Rondo on a decent team.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,470
Somewhere
Wallace makes sense only in a trade where the Celtics take a risk on someone else's longer-term contracts. Something like Larry Sanders if he continues to suck this year. 
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,613
Row 14
Cellar-Door said:
Why? To lead them to 12th in the West?
 
To find anyone willing to play with Kobe.  To be fair, Rondo and Kobe would be a fist fight waiting to happen.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually think it's a pairing that works. Bryant talked about watching Pierce game tape so that he could continue to be effective, and Rondo would function well with a scorer that can actually convert passes. In any event, I'd prefer Atnalta as a landing spot for Rondo with Teague and their #1 coming back.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,743
Rotten Apple
I think Rondo's no-look whip pass to the first row in the last minute of the game last night pretty well sums up why a lot of people on this board are happy to move on from him.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
ifmanis5 said:
I think Rondo's no-look whip pass to the first row in the last minute of the game last night pretty well sums up why a lot of people on this board are happy to move on from him.
I thought it was his airball layup in the first quarter or slingshot brick on his elbow jumper late that would have made it a one-possession game. Overall I thought he played ok but he's so easy to defend when teams don't have to be keyed in on other elite scorers.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
I watched the late-night replay and fell asleep before the 4th quarter, but from what I saw, it seems to me that last night's game was lost by an execrable defensive effort in the 1st quarter -- 40 PA on 73% shooting, and it looked even worse than that. If they can't muster effort now, what are they going to look like in a few months?
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,620
I'm not judging Rondo right now on anything but effort and how he looks physically. Both are good. He needs time to develop chemistry with this squad. Maybe it will look just like last night but I'm willing to give it time.

This team is much more fun to watch than last year, I know that for sure.
 

Mloaf71

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
644
I keep trying to think of a fit on the Thunder with the injuries they have had.
 
Do they want Rondo and/or Green to allow them to ease their stars minutes back up a little?  Rondo being a rental might work for them.
 
What's their draft pick status like?
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
I don't know about Rondo on the Thunder, but Reggie Jackson would sure look good in green. I wonder how much if would take to force Presti to let Jackson (who will be an RFA next Summer) go.
 

wutang112878

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2007
6,066
Forget about making a talent match with the Thunder, I think the salary cap match stops this from happening.  I believe the Thunder have a $7M trade exception but they cant combine the exception & player salary in the deal because according to CBAFAQ:
 

However, if that team has a $5 million player and a $1 million trade exception from a previous trade, it cannot add the trade exception to the 125% plus $100,000 margin from their $5 million player ($6.35 million), in order to trade for a player making $7 million. This cannot be done, as it would invoke using two exceptions on the same player.
 
So to match Rondo's $13M in salary I think they have to send out ~$10M  They arent trading Durant, Westbrook or Ibaka and the rest of the guys on the team make $3M or less each, so now they would have to send out 3-4 guys for Rondo + whatever filler we could add in.  In that scenario I dont think they would have enough depth to last a month let alone make a run in the playoffs.
 
Disclaimer: I may have my facts incorrect on the salary cap / trade situation and I'd appreciate any clarity others could provide.
 

ALiveH

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,104
rondo is playing some of the best defense i've seen from him for a while. it actually looks like he's trying & he cares out there.  The chemistry issues are real and are probably why he's turned the ball over a bunch.  That probably takes 10-20 games to fix.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
Yeah, it really sucks that this guy with a half-broken hand (and could be defended thusly) on a team of role players wasn't amazing.
 
I got home to see the second half and you know what I didn't see? A guy handling the ball for 18 seconds waiting for off-ball routes to complete, and then passing to the eventual end-of-clock shooter. Given that this is one of the main critiques in this thread is that he's no longer capable of playing a faster game, I'm a little disappointed at the lack of lauds for his adapting to a new system.
 
It's almost as if critics want reasons to dislike him.
 

TheDeuce222

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
380
zenter said:
Yeah, it really sucks that this guy with a half-broken hand (and could be defended thusly) on a team of role players wasn't amazing.
 
I got home to see the second half and you know what I didn't see? A guy handling the ball for 18 seconds waiting for off-ball routes to complete, and then passing to the eventual end-of-clock shooter. Given that this is one of the main critiques in this thread is that he's no longer capable of playing a faster game, I'm a little disappointed at the lack of lauds for his adapting to a new system.
 
It's almost as if critics want reasons to dislike him.
Amen.  Rondo is far from perfect, but he has played the exact offense Stevens has wanted him to play, moving the ball and looking to push it aggressively.  He has also been trying harder on defense to my eyes and aggressively crashing the boards.  He makes some absolutely idiotic plays, like the aforementioned whipped turnover in the final seconds last night, but I find it hard to believe people think the bad has outweighed the good so far this year.  If we could get Stauskas, the Kings #1 pick and for them to take Gerald Wallace?  I'd do it tomorrow of course, but the idea that not a single team in the NBA would trade "anything of value" for him?  I think that's focusing wholly on his warts and his moodiness and ignoring the rest of his game.  
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
zenter said:
Yeah, it really sucks that this guy with a half-broken hand (and could be defended thusly) on a team of role players wasn't amazing.
 
I got home to see the second half and you know what I didn't see? A guy handling the ball for 18 seconds waiting for off-ball routes to complete, and then passing to the eventual end-of-clock shooter. Given that this is one of the main critiques in this thread is that he's no longer capable of playing a faster game, I'm a little disappointed at the lack of lauds for his adapting to a new system.
 
It's almost as if critics want reasons to dislike him.
Rajon is running his coaches system as a complementary player while shooting a career low and turning the way over at a career high without being a turnstile defensively in a contract year. Kudos to you sir. ;)

He looks to me like he's always looked to me.....a complementary piece and an excellent passer who is only going to look as good as his scorers are putting the ball in the basket. Last night he looked godawful as he QB'd his team to a 31-point deficit then looked very good when Avery and Green were knocking down shots.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Rudy Pemberton said:
You're referencing his shooting % based on 3 games? Really?

I think what we've learned about Rondo is that if he's the best player on your team, than your team is pretty horrible. But we all know that, don't we?
The poster wanted props based on 3 games what else is there to go on but those 3 games. It was interesting at best timing to reach out for some Rondo love but I did the best I could with the sample size we have.
 

ALiveH

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,104
NBA teams seem like they're getting smarter.  It would be pretty shocking if he got a max or near-max contract from anyone, right?
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
ALiveH said:
NBA teams seem like they're getting smarter.  It would be pretty shocking if he got a max or near-max contract from anyone, right?
It actually wouldn't shock me, to be honest. If the cap is set to jump to the low 80s in 2 years, it wouldn't shock me if a couple of teams that otherwise struggle to attract FAs justified overpaying Rondo knowing that he won't be a true max 2 years from now.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
ALiveH said:
NBA teams seem like they're getting smarter.  It would be pretty shocking if he got a max or near-max contract from anyone, right?
What do you consider near-max?
 
He's certainly not going to get the 20Mish he'd be eligible for as a max salary.
 
But I could see a team like the Lakers or Knicks give him something like 4/60.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
HomeRunBaker said:
The poster wanted props based on 3 games what else is there to go on but those 3 games. It was interesting at best timing to reach out for some Rondo love but I did the best I could with the sample size we have.
 
The "poster" was commenting on the general tenor of critics. It's borderline "Manny doesn't care" insanity, divorced from reality and conveniently ignoring context or facts when it doesn't suit.
 
There isn't a person here who would say Rondo is a perfect player or deserves a break because of who he is or what he has done. On the other hand (the broken one), we shouldn't set him up for failure by 1) creating unrealistic expectations, 2) faulting him for not reaching them, and 3) dismissing the things he did do well. At bare minimum, it's unconvincing.
 
He had some bad passes, yes. He took some tremendously bad shots, yes. None of this is particularly new, but it sure seemed exacerbated by the fact that he's more or less one-handed (which is obvious to anyone watching 2 minutes of his play).
 
However... The central critique of Rondo that he's so stubborn that he refuses to play in a sped-up system? The critics are wrong. At the very least, he can when injured. This alone raises questions about the other vehement unsubstantiated claims critiques make about Rondo. Whether you like him or not, this this flexibility also makes Rondo valuable to the Celtics as trade bait or as core component.
 
EDIT
 
 
Grin&MartyBarret said:
It actually wouldn't shock me, to be honest. If the cap is set to jump to the low 80s in 2 years, it wouldn't shock me if a couple of teams that otherwise struggle to attract FAs justified overpaying Rondo knowing that he won't be a true max 2 years from now.
 
As a point of information, the low 80s is (I believe) if the smoothing proposals are accepted. If not, it could leap from 70-something to 90-something in a single year, which makes Rondo for 18M suddenly look cheap.
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
If his game is being affected by his injured left hand then he shouldn't be playing.
 
Rondo is a unique player.  But so far this year he has been, on balance, a mediocre player.  He is pushing the ball a little more, but not enough. He's not a good fit for the rest of the roster, and the offense flows a little better when he goes to the bench and Smart or Turner plays the point. And certainly the defense is better when Smart is in.
 
IMHO the C's are stuck with Rondo until the deadline at the earliest, so we'll just have to take the bad with the good.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
zenter said:
 
The "poster" was commenting on the general tenor of critics. It's borderline "Manny doesn't care" insanity, divorced from reality and conveniently ignoring context or facts when it doesn't suit.
 
There isn't a person here who would say Rondo is a perfect player or deserves a break because of who he is or what he has done. On the other hand (the broken one), we shouldn't set him up for failure by 1) creating unrealistic expectations, 2) faulting him for not reaching them, and 3) dismissing the things he did do well. At bare minimum, it's unconvincing.
 
He had some bad passes, yes. He took some tremendously bad shots, yes. None of this is particularly new, but it sure seemed exacerbated by the fact that he's more or less one-handed (which is obvious to anyone watching 2 minutes of his play).
 
However... The central critique of Rondo that he's so stubborn that he refuses to play in a sped-up system? The critics are wrong. At the very least, he can when injured. This alone raises questions about the other vehement unsubstantiated claims critiques make about Rondo. Whether you like him or not, this this flexibility also makes Rondo valuable to the Celtics as trade bait or as core component.
 
EDIT
 
 
 
As a point of information, the low 80s is (I believe) if the smoothing proposals are accepted. If not, it could leap from 70-something to 90-something in a single year, which makes Rondo for 18M suddenly look cheap.
It's always excuse after excuse. Rondo tosses up a right-handed airball layup (2 in 3 games) it's because his left hand isn't recovered. He turns the ball over repeatedly on errant passes with his right hand.....it's because his left hand is injured and he's playing to the pace Stevens wants. Last year he didn't break a sweat as opposing 1's got wherever they wanted......his knee isn't right. His former head coach, one day a HOF coach, along with his GM publicly call him stubborn.....they are wrong because Rondo does what his coach asks with mixed results.

The Lakers or Knicks are high-profile teams who will pay obscene money to big names regardless of their actual value. Marbury, Amare, Eddy Curry.....Dolan will pay for names and the back page. LA has a ton of money to spend on someone and guys like Alec Burks are signing for $10m+ so an $18m per offer from NY or LA wouldn't surprise me in the least. If either of them back out I honestly have no idea who will sign Rondo for close to what he feels he's worth. He could be a holdout for all I know with so many teams set at the position.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
I'm not going to get into the Rondo statistical talk too much just 3 games in.  Too many variables with new teammates, a still-healing broken hand, a new system, and the tiny sample size.
 
I will say, and this goes back to the last couple of years, that teams are guarding Rondo differently than when he was at his best 4-5 years ago.  It's probably related to a lot of factors, but generally they are not playing off him nearly as much (especially in pick-n-rolls).  The combination of his poor shot and great quickness/passing ability  (with better teammates to get the ball too also), caused teams to sag way off Rondo.  He could survey the floor without pressure, and when he did shoot, he was WIDE open.
 
If you watch over the past year or two, those wide open shots are far less frequent.  Maybe its because he shoots it better from midrange now.  Maybe its because he isn't driving as aggressively. Maybe its because teams have just figured him out.  Regardless… he's been less effective in the half court with defenses playing him like this.  His elite athleticism and vision used to open up lanes for himself and others, whether or not he was driving.  Now he simply isn't creating those chances as much.  
 
I hope he starts blowing by his man more often when they challenge him and play him tight in the half court, because if he doesn't do that, he isn't nearly as good. 
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
HomeRunBaker said:
It's always excuse after excuse.
 
What I wrote and what you apparently read are different. ;) This is the same argumentation shell game game people play in V&N... Which is, frankly, why V&N is such a miserable place. I think your gross overstatements are wrong. That doesn't mean I think your strawman opponent is right. You can fit entire galaxies in the space between.
 
You're on record stating Rondo is overrated/turrable/worthless/whatever. Gleeful posts about how right you are because X, Y, and Z make your points look weaker especially because you ignore/negate A, B, and C. Rondo's definitely flawed and frequently frustrating at best. Nobody is arguing otherwise, despite your best efforts.
 
In other words: Take it easy, man. This is literally less than a game - it's a bunch of idiots opining about other people playing a game in which we have at best a microscopic stake in. Let's have fun about it.
 
As to whether Rondo's a "max player" or not...
 
Seems to me a rather a meaningless exercise to get bogged down in the term "max". Teams spend more or less to the cap + 10M, and the new TV deal makes player values almost impossible to determine.
 
On pure "value", nobody's a bigger puzzle. On one hand, PG is a stacked position and Rondo has some deep flaws. On the other, he's a guy who made 15 AST and 9 REBs on a night where he looked bad and was playing mostly one-handed. He (bad) relies on athleticism but (good) has stellar court vision. He (bad) can't shoot but (good) seems to elevate to big games. He (bad) is stubborn but (good) is stubborn. And so on.
 
By the numbers: Let's say the 2015-16 "max" for his tenure of player projects to ~19.5M. By my read, Eric Bledsoe (5/70M) is a bigger offensive weapon, but Rondo's a more complete player. This is Rondo's last big contract and he has a longer track record, so 5/100 seems totally reasonable. In 2019-20, once the new TV deal is in full effect, that ~20M will look like a 10-12M does contract right now - large but movable. By that point, the same mid-tenure max contract will be well north of 30M.
 
So... Yeah, Rondo getting the "max" is both possible and likely. I both fear  and hope that DA's the one who will give it to him.
 

ALiveH

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,104
so maybe a $60/4 contract would actually not be crazy given the salary cap ramp.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,463
ALiveH said:
so maybe a $60/4 contract would actually not be crazy given the salary cap ramp.
It's crazy to think he'd accept that.
I can't see him not getting a better offer than 3/4 of the open market max based on conservative estimates of next year's cap.
Even if it was the best offer he'd probably take a short deal then hit the market after the bigger cap jump.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,743
Rotten Apple
Kings and Rockets off to good starts kinda of takes out two good landing spots. It's gone about as badly as it go in terms of moving him- injuries to Rondo, lack of legit trading partners etc.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
ifmanis5 said:
Kings and Rockets off to good starts kinda of takes out two good landing spots. It's gone about as badly as it go in terms of moving him- injuries to Rondo, lack of legit trading partners etc.
 
Honestly, I don't think the Rockets were ever a real landing spot. That was all just baseless speculation. The Rockets hate midrange shots and have a ball-dominant 2 guard. Rondo just doesn't fit there.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
ifmanis5 said:
Kings and Rockets off to good starts kinda of takes out two good landing spots. It's gone about as badly as it go in terms of moving him- injuries to Rondo, lack of legit trading partners etc.
I'd say the opposite where the Kings are concerned, their start probably makes it more likely that they make a call on Rondo. Their new ownership group wants to make the playoffs, so adding talent is still probably important to them.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,275
swingin val said:
And the Kings backcourt is absolutely atrocious.


Current PER

Sessions -0.1
McLemore 0.7
Stauskas 0.8
What would be an offer for Rondo that would work from the Kings? Stauskas and next years 1st? More? Less? Reason why I thibk it might be more is that the owner clearly wants to make the playoffs, backcourt is terrible, and Rondo is Boogie Cousins approved (see BS Report he was on) so he has a lot of value to them
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
swingin val said:
And the Kings backcourt is absolutely atrocious.


Current PER

Sessions -0.1
McLemore 0.7
Stauskas 0.8
 
You left out the guy who starts at Rondo's position and is currently sporting a 20.5 PER.
 
Also, it's been stated as fact that Rondo wont re-sign in Sacramento. Not sure the origins of that report, but it's been out there for a while.