Until the recent report on Boston.com, a number of outlets were reporting that Rondo broke the "pinky on his left hand," not his index finger.radsoxfan said:
Trading Rondo...
- Thread starter kazuneko
- Start date
I said assumed 5th but not certain only because I had heard it was reported to be the 5th (above pinky) and Rondo explaining how he landed with his fist dlown which "could" be the same blunt force to cause a boxers fracture.radsoxfan said:
I'm skeptical because if I'm falling why would I brace myself with a closed fist and not my palm? This doesn't appear to be ones natural reaction. What really motivated me to ask for your expertise was the cast and when I google the image for a metacarpal cast I see every one like mine used to be.....covering all but the fingertips of the hand.
HomeRunBaker said:
I am skeptical myself, but I can tell you as someone who experiences occasional wrist tendinitis that you can retrain yourself to land with a fist rather than an open palm.
Sure but why on earth would you ever want to? Not to mention unless you make a habit out of falling and learning how to brace your fall with your fist the reaction would be instinctual to brace with your palm. It doesn't really matter it's just more interesting to want to know what truly occurred.slamminsammya said:
Learning to make fists when falling helps keep you from bracing yourself which helps prevent wrist fractures. You are also less likely to break your wrist with a closed fist than an open palm in most fall situations.HomeRunBaker said:
slamminsammya said:
HomeRunBaker said:
Because of my own wrist issues, my instinct is now to land on my fists. These days, I scrape my knuckles as often as I scrape my palm. So... You can retrain.
Incidentally, I broke my 3rd metacarpal in a car accident, and the way it broke was basically as an exaggerated jamming event - I compressed my fingers dead-on into the dash. Do we know if his fist was closed when he landed? The idea that he thought he caught himself but didn't might mean Rondo simply didn't position his hand correctly and compressed. As for surgery, every injury is different, so even if I didn't get surgery, it doesn't mean that he didn't need it.
I still don't get the hullaballoo over the circumstances; if he broke it trampolining, I just don't see why it matters. I also don't see that incentive he has to lie, so I'm inclined to believe the story.
It's also possible that the real story is embarrassing.
I find the shower-fall story implausible, but that doesn't necessarily mean he broke it in a fight.
I find the shower-fall story implausible, but that doesn't necessarily mean he broke it in a fight.
Google "Monta Ellis Moped Accident" for why Rondo may have incentive to lie.zenter said:
I'd rather look at Ainge's incentives to let it go and back him publicly even if he knows the story is BS. It's a short term injury in this case, Rondo is probably not going to miss games nor have long term adverse effects, plus is in the last year of his deal anyway. From Ainge's perspective it may help to keep intact whatever trade value he has left and/or build up a bit of goodwill with Rondo and his agent.
maufman said:
I'd think the shower story is the embarrassing one.
That said, IIRC, the media day PC had no mention of shower - only "in my home". He mentioned his hand catching on a windowsill leading to the break, and most showers don't have windowsills. The windowsill thing fits an open-hand compression/jamming type fracture, too.leetinsley38 said:
Okay - so trampolining might be a restricted activity? That makes sense, but we have no reason not to believe the story - it's not like Rondo has a reputation of lying or being reckless. Even if it is a lie, there's a strong chance it's isolated given his history. I dunno, I guess trying to suss out Ainge's motivations in a hypothetical scenario to be throwing good intellectual resources after bad.
Yeah sorry meant "too many" games. Although I had heard rumblings that he's targeting the opener (Ainge half-mentioned it on T&R this am).radsoxfan said:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/10/1/6886225/rajon-rondo-wants-to-play-on-opening-night
Rondo himself said his doctor told him 10 weeks but possible to get back as soon as 8 which means missing the first 4-6 weeks of the regular season (12-20 games or so).leetinsley38 said:
I don't know that I can take another long term rebuild. Besides my kids, music, and Seinfeld, basketball is the love of my life. Im 35 so came up as a fan right after Bird trashed his back/ McHale had his foot amputated so I missed the 80s glory days. The series against Cleveland where Bird basically passed the torch to Reggie was when I became all in on the team and the sport. First game of the playoff the following year Reggie came out and just fucking dominated. He imposed his will on that team then crumbled to the floor like a sack of coked up potatoes. Then my sports hero died later that summer. The next 15 years were fucking horrible save for 2 "moments". First one being "holy shit how is Paul Pierce still available at 10?" The other being the ECF finals run with truth toine delk et al. Got a sweet bonus from work that year so I went to every playoff game. I was there for the comeback and I think my voice has never recovered. In between was the corpse of Nique, chubby Dee Brown, late career Dana Barros. Then face bandaged had to have been suicidal Paul Pierce playing with Raef Lafuckingfrentz. The second big 3 run was phenomenal, but I honestly don't think I ever recovered from Reggie. I bleed green, I LOVE the game of basketball, but I don't think I can take another decade plus rebuild. Vent over
Sorry I'm a little tipsy and just read a story about how LeBron knows "what I mean to this city". The greats we have had come through town always say how much the city means to them.
Sorry I'm a little tipsy and just read a story about how LeBron knows "what I mean to this city". The greats we have had come through town always say how much the city means to them.
On the Simmons and Rose NBA preview deal, Simmons said that he thinks Rondo will be traded to the Knicks. His package was Rondo and Gerald Wallace for Amar'e, Iman Shumpert, a 2018 1st round pick, and a pick swap in the next 5 years.
Is that even a decent trade for the Celtics? Am i missing something, be cause at first blush that seems like a pretty bad deal for the C's. And knowing Simmons is a blatant homer and proposes awesome deals for the Celtics all the time makes me even more confused
Is that even a decent trade for the Celtics? Am i missing something, be cause at first blush that seems like a pretty bad deal for the C's. And knowing Simmons is a blatant homer and proposes awesome deals for the Celtics all the time makes me even more confused
The C's would get out of Wallace's contract a year early, grab a first-round pick, and add a marginal rotation guy who's still young enough to develop into something more than that (but I wouldn't bet on it). Danny would jump on that deal.tbb345 said:
I don't really get it from NY's perspective though. The triangle offense would neutralize Rondo's strengths and emphasize his weaknesses. Calderon, on the other hand, is a great fit for a triangle PG.
Oh, I don't get it from that perspective either. I was trying to allay TBB's confusion by pointing out that it was a sweetheart deal for the C's, and therefore an example of Simmons's homerism.DannyDarwinism said:
What I don't get is Phil being so stubborn and close-minded in insisting on running the triangle. It's an effective offense with two of the games best scorers ever in Jordan and Kobe operating as defacto point guard/iso scorers. I think any offense would be effective with those guys.maufman said:
IMHO Ainge doesn't care at all about getting out of Wallace's contract, for two reasons. First, he's going to have 40M i(roughly) in cap space next July even with Wallace. His challenge will be to get a blue chip FA to come to Boston, not to generate the necessary cap space. In fact, he may have to overpay second or third tier players (e.g. Rondo) to get above the 90% floor. Second, the real free agent bonanza will be in 2016 (LeBron, KD, etc.) and Wallace will be gone by then.
So I don't see Ainge giving away any assets to dump Wallace. It might be different if he were a malcontent or a bad influence on the young players, but he isn't.
So I don't see Ainge giving away any assets to dump Wallace. It might be different if he were a malcontent or a bad influence on the young players, but he isn't.
I agree that Danny isnt looking to move Wallace but this is exactly how I see Wallace being used as just a salary slot to facilitate a trade. If we isolate the variables in the trade: Just looking at the salaries, in this hypothetical deal, Danny is essentially trading a $13M (Rondo) expiring and a 2/$20 (Wallace) guy for an expiring $23M (Amare) which makes it work cap-wise. Talent-wise we are trading Rondo for Shumpert and the 2018 pick.
Looking at the talent this isnt a bad deal but we should look at the bigger picture from a rebuilding standpoint. In terms of the 1sts we would have coming: 2015 from the Clippers, 2016 from Nets, 2017 swap from Nets, 2018 1st from Nets and, if this went down, 2018 1st from the Knicks. That looks fantastic from the standpoint of the talent infusion we will have on the roster in 2019 and how that team will be developing in 2020/21 when those young guys could actually win games. But now we are talking 5-6 years down the road. Sure Danny could hypothetically trade some of those future picks for immediate assets but its pretty rare for teams to trade significant assets for picks 3 years down the road. Basically we cant have a 8 year rebuilding plan, thats kind of ridiculous.
Looking at the talent this isnt a bad deal but we should look at the bigger picture from a rebuilding standpoint. In terms of the 1sts we would have coming: 2015 from the Clippers, 2016 from Nets, 2017 swap from Nets, 2018 1st from Nets and, if this went down, 2018 1st from the Knicks. That looks fantastic from the standpoint of the talent infusion we will have on the roster in 2019 and how that team will be developing in 2020/21 when those young guys could actually win games. But now we are talking 5-6 years down the road. Sure Danny could hypothetically trade some of those future picks for immediate assets but its pretty rare for teams to trade significant assets for picks 3 years down the road. Basically we cant have a 8 year rebuilding plan, thats kind of ridiculous.
wutang112878 said:
But you're not factoring in the huge amount of cap space the Celtics will have, nor are you factoring in the increased value of those first round picks now that we know rookie scale contracts won't be increasing along with the cap. Rookie scale contracts are already valuable because they're cost controlled and affordable, but under the increased cap they're going to be far more valuable. The Celtics can very easily be completely rebuilt in a couple of years, and those young players and picks are assets that can either be used to trade for stars or to attract free agents. There is basically no limit to the Celtics flexibility right now, so I'm not sure how this could be viewed as an 8 year rebuilding plan.
Our last one was 18 years......8 isn't bad historically for an NBA team to get back on track. Many never even accomplish it that quickly.wutang112878 said:
The (only) hope we maintain is that the Nets could conceivably bottom out in another year or two which has always been on my radar and still on the right track.
Brickowski said:
What does Danny do with Rondo and Wallace then? Just let them walk for nothing? All you'd be getting in return is cap space, which, as you just pointed out, isn't that big of a deal considering their cap situation.
Maybe there is a better deal out there than what is essentially Shump and an '18 1st that will likely have some sort of protection on it, but I don't see this kind of deal as "giving away assets to dump Wallace". You're adding Wallace's contract to help facilitate a Rondo deal, not the other way around. Amare's contract would be up a season earlier than Wallace's and no one is saying they have to use that cap space before '16 (they could sign a few players to 1 year deals to reach the cap floor without effecting the '16 cap situation).
If you're going to send Rondo to the Knicks, what other deal is better than this one? Bargnani, Shump and a 1st for Rondo while we keep Wallace? No thanks.
Swapping Rondo for Shump in the rotation would also allow Smart to play maximum minutes at his natural position, while eliminating the chemistry nightmare of Rondo and Bradley on the floor together (which, due to injuries, we haven't seen for extended stretches in the past).
Grin&MartyBarret said:
I dont think the cost control of the rookie deals really matters that much. The value of a #1 pick isnt that he costs $4M it should be that he is talented, even if that salary were to double to $8M I dont think the value really diminishes that much if the player is a real building block.
If the Celts stand pat then its not a couple of years, its a FA or 2 with the cap space and then the talent infusion with the 2016-18 picks. Surely they wont completely stand pat, but I dont see us getting a player of real consequence where we use a pick 3 years down the road as a major chip. Take Love, I doubt the T-Wolves would have traded him for a great pick 2 years down the road because the GM making that deal might not be making the pick if he is looking that far into the future.
wutang112878 said:
Isn't this essentially saying that if the Celtics don't rebuild then it'll take a long time to rebuild?
In the last 4 years, the NBA has changed drastically but, for some reason, there's still a tendency to look to the distant past as an example of how long it'll take to rebuild. The last CBA decreased the length of maximum contracts, which resulted in a huge increase in player movement and the new TV deal is going to result in a much larger cap number. Every summer in the NBA is now a crazy flurry of player movement, and teams have become extremely creative when it comes to creating space. With a few notable outliers (the Nets, etc.), most NBA franchises now understand that they can, easily, position themselves to have the flexibility to make a major move anytime the opportunity presents itself. And in a lot of ways, what Ainge has done over the last 2 years epitomizes this approach.
So my point is not that the C's can trade a first round pick in 2021 for a star player, but that they can go out and sign star players and use those picks as a means of adding cost controlled talent. Or that they can trade their own picks in the coming years--picks that aren't years off--for highly paid, star caliber players and know that their future picks give them the ability to add cost-controlled talent around those players. There's huge value in that, and we've already seen that smart organizations are very hesitant to move 1st round picks. That hesitancy will only increase as the value of those picks increases with the increase in the cap. First round picks will soon take up only a small fraction of the cap. That makes them far more valuable both in theory and practice, regardless of whether the player drafted becomes an all-star or a role player.
This goes back to the argument I had with everybody in the Kevin Love thread. The majority of people seemed to feel that Love would cost too many of the C's assets and that it would be impossible to build around him since he'd cost 1/3rd of the cap--and I insisted that the cap would increasing rapidly and that it wouldn't be that difficult to build around him. The new TV deal announcement proved my point--to a degree that I never even could have imagined. The Celtics have very little long-term money committed and the cap will increase exponentially very soon. They are flush with first round picks. They have young talent. There's nothing at all limiting their flexibility right now, and acquiring a pick that's 4 years out doesn't indicate a 4 year plan it just means that Ainge recognizes how valuable those picks will be with the new cap and he's trying to hoard them before the league's slowest GMs catch up.
That said, it's important to note that this is all just Simmons' speculation and I don't think the Knicks actually make that deal to begin with. Maybe they do--we've yet to see how Dolan vs. Phil will actually play out--but if it's true that Phil's been given 100% control and Dolan's out on basketball decisions, I don't see this deal going down.
Avery Bradley is more suited than Rondo to play point in the triangle. Plus Bradley is not free to walk at the end of the year. But I don't see Ainge trading either Rondo or Bradley to an Atlantic Division rival unless the deal is too good to pass up, and this one isn't. So very possibly both teams would pass.
A three-team deal deal in which Rondo goes to the Lakers with Nash and a prospect or decent first round pick (from the third team) coming back to Boston makes more sense to me. Isn't Rondo's family in LA for at least part of the year? IMHO there is a good chance that he would resign in LA.
A three-team deal deal in which Rondo goes to the Lakers with Nash and a prospect or decent first round pick (from the third team) coming back to Boston makes more sense to me. Isn't Rondo's family in LA for at least part of the year? IMHO there is a good chance that he would resign in LA.
More news on the Nets picks with Lopez reinjuring his foot again. Honestly I couldn't have written this script any more perfect up to this point for the purpose of these picks.wutang112878 said:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nets-center-brook-lopez-sidelined-sprained-foot-020027249--nba.html
HomeRunBaker said:
1) Shouldn't this (you know, non-Rondo conversation about the picks, etc) be it's own thread?
2) Since the C's don't have the 2015 pick, am I right in assuming you're making a point about Lopez's durability and how it might affect 2016?
Ooooops wrong thread sorry. Yes talking about long term.....one more broken foot and he had to be essentially done. Combined with JJ and Deron's age/wear and tear its all about 2016-18 for the Nets hopeful demise.zenter said:
It isn't like I'm wishing death on the guy. If Brook, JJ and Deron all miss games in a couple years while we hold their unprotected lottery pick I'm sure as heck not going to feel bad about guys with $100m contracts collecting their paycheck while wearing a suit.86spike said:
If it were football with no guarantees and injures that could cause life-altering brain injuries that's one thing and I'd NEVER wish that on my worst enemy. Lopez' foot?......I'll be the first in line to sign his cast.
Grin&MartyBarret said:
On the bolded, I guess what I'm saying is that the major assets that we have coming to us our pretty far out into the future as in the kid we would draft with the hypothetical 2018 Knicks pick is in middle school right now. Danny has to find a way to pull those assets through a mini time-machine. Those Nets 2016-18 picks are going to be amazing, no doubt about that, but those players or picks would either take time to develop before they could win or be traded for bigger stars as you mentioned. This isnt impossible, but the more I talk about it I guess the issue is really 1) That if you rebuild solely through the draft, like the Thunder did, it takes 3-4 years to accumulate your assets. 2) Finding a trade partner to flip those assets for a real star, is a challenge. Basically, its just a challenging road and I guess I'm already impatient.
I'm with you on Love, I was all for trading for him because he was a guy you really could build around and with all the future assets and draft space we would really look like an intriguing option for free agents. However, I'm not sure I agree on the underlined. The cupboard is looking a little bare to me. We've talked ad nauseum about how Rondo isnt really a great asset. Olynyk's ceiling is probably a 6th man or 5th starter. I'm not sure Sully has that much value around the league. Maybe we have something in Young and Smart has a lot of offensive development to do before he has much value around the league. Its not as if they are starting out like an expansion team but I dont see a young nucleus that can develop together an collectively improve everyone's value.
I think back to the young nucleus that Danny had prior to KG. Perk was developing into a good defensive center. Big Al looked like a budding offensive weapon. Rondo still had a lot of work to do, so I guess you could say thats analogous to Smart. Gomes looked like an NBA player and Delonte looked like a useful rotational guy. Maybe we can say Sully is similar to Delonte. But as I see it, we're 2 significant chips away from having that type of young nucleus at the moment.
One thing on the cap too, the cap is increasing exponentially for everyone. I really think the huge cap increase hurts the value of our cap space. The increase might increase the difference between the haves and have nots for the first and maybe second free agency period where a team like Cleveland might suddenly have close to a max deal to give out.
wutang112878 said:
Exactly. Looking forward to having a shit-ton of cap space in the summer of 2016 isn't as exciting as it was a few months ago.
I think most people's problem with the theoretical Love scenarios that, literally, had no chance of happening (because Minnesota wanted a rising young star like Klay Thompson in any of the pre-draft offers and Boston didn't have one, and after the draft the price became Andrew Wiggins, which Boston also couldn't meet despite their best efforts to cash in their draft chits for #1) was that he was a pending free agent, and if you cashed in everything you ran a high risk of turning into the current edition of the Los Angeles Lakers if/when he bolted.
nighthob said:
That's a completely reasonable take. However, many of the discussions in that thread were taking place under the assumption that Love was willing to re-sign, and even then many people felt he wasn't worth building around and that building around him would be too difficult if he was given a max deal.
My memory may be bad, because the bolting risk is the one stuck in my mind about it. I was fine with Boston's Plan A, which was get Love, and use he and Rondo to induce Carmelo to force his way here via sign & trade. And if Boston had won a top three pick, that would likely be the team. But when that went by the boards the dream was over.
Love was a white elephant. If Love, Rubio and Pekovic were mediocre together, what makes people think that Love and Rondo would be any better, especially without a decent center?
And the idea that a third big star would sign in Boston to play with the prickly Rondo and a white guy who takes 25 shots a game was pure wishful thinking, even if the C's had plenty of cap space to make a third max offer.
And the idea that a third big star would sign in Boston to play with the prickly Rondo and a white guy who takes 25 shots a game was pure wishful thinking, even if the C's had plenty of cap space to make a third max offer.
They're basically polar opposites. Rubio is an average 3 point shooter, but can't finish at the rim to save his life. Rondo can finish at the rim, but is a terrible 3 point shooter.maufman said:
Edit: Either way, I think any offense with a primary ball handler that can't score is going to struggle to be average.
Rubio is better defensively. Rondo doesn't give a shit on defense unless he can pad his stats by getting a steal.
Basically Rondo vs Rubio is a wash, even down to the fact that they both turned down extensions for more than either one is worth.
Basically Rondo vs Rubio is a wash, even down to the fact that they both turned down extensions for more than either one is worth.