Trading Rondo...

[kazuneko]

Unless Smart is being traded in a Love trade (which seems unlikely) you'd have to think Rondo is gone. 
I would have liked to have traded him for the #7 or #8 pick but looks like that is not happening.  Houston has reportedly been interested, but don't seem to have much to offer. LA could potentially offer Randle and Sacramento could offer Stauskas...
Actually, at this point,  it's a bit hard to imagine the Cs getting anything close to equal value for Rondo, which is probably the single biggest disappointing aspect of the Smart pick..
 

 

[the1andonly3003]

do it now! I;ll drive him to the airport

 

[Manramsclan]

It may not be in a Love trade. This night and free agency is far from over. History has shown that a lot of different deals materialize after the draft with drafted players once teams assess what they have.

 

[the1andonly3003]

if the trade exception expires soon, we should expect a trade very soon

 

[The Belly Itcher]

I'll gladly keep Rondo. He's a championship winning point guard who has a proven track record of unquestionably out-MVP'ing the best of the best in the league.

 

[Kliq]

The problem is, you can't play Smart in Rondo together because neither of them can shoot the ball at a consistent level. I think Rondo has run his course here, and he deserves to play on a better team. The problem with trading Rondo, and this has been brought up a zillion times, is that there are not a lot of teams who need a franchise PG. Let's take a look at the NBA teams and if they feel like they have their Franchise PG:
 
Toronto: If they re-sign Lowry, yes.
NY: No
Brooklyn: Technically yes.
Philly: Yes.
Indiana: No.
Milwaukee: No.
Detroit: Yes.
Cleveland: Yes.
Chicago: Yes
Washington: Yes
Miami: No.
Charlotte: Yes.
Atlanta: Yes.
Orlando: Yes.
Minnesota: Yes.
Portland: Yes.
Utah: No.
OKC: Yes.
Nuggets: Yes.
New Orleans: Yes.
San Antonio: Yes.
Houston: No.
Memphis: Yes.
Dallas: No.
Phoenix: Yes.
LAC: Yes
LAL: No.
Sacramento: No.
GS: Yes.
 
So, realistically there are only nine teams that probably feel like Rondo is someone they would want on their team. So you need to find one of those teams, and since the market is so small, the selection is going to be equally as small. I think if you trade Rondo, you might have to settle for something like .60 or .70 on the dollar.

 

[Blacken]

My money's still on Rondo to SAC for McLemore and we see Smart - McLemore - Young for a bit. Smallish, but good on the perimeter and they're not trying too hard to win anyway.

 

[Blacken]

If we could extract a future first in that deal, I'd be all over that.

Sure, but I'd be happy with the player. I love Rondo, but he's gone and I don't know if you'll get more.

 

[Ed Hillel]

My money's still on Rondo to SAC for McLemore and we see Smart - McLemore - Young for a bit. Smallish, but good on the perimeter and they're not trying too hard to win anyway.

The backcourt certainly wouldn't be small. Have the Celtics ever had a bigger backcourt than those two?

Those two being Smart and Young.

 

[dylanmarsh]

Of those 9 teams, how many would Rondo resign with?
Knicks, Lakers, Heat, Rockets, and Mavs?

The Heat are looking to get Lowry via sign and trade from Toronto.

 

[kazuneko]

Of those 9 teams, how many would Rondo resign with?

Knicks, Lakers, Heat, Rockets, and Mavs?

The best trade I can see from any of those teams would be to the LA Lakers for Randle.

 

[Blacken]

The backcourt certainly wouldn't be small. Have the Celtics ever had a bigger backcourt than those two?

Those two being Smart and Young.

What I was saying was that Young is a little small for a modern three in the case that the Rondo/McLemore thing is true. The 6'8" to 6'9" small forward a common thing and I worry he may not have the length there even with the 7'0" wingspan. If he plays the two, I worry about his defensive quickness against twos and the growing-more-common second point guard (but I don't at all worry about him on offense, he should be able to bully his matchup effectively).

I don't think it's a bad pick at all, but I do think it makes offloading Rondo a little harder. Many of the teams that don't have a franchise PG have promising wings lying around. (That said, I do agree with the philosophy of BPA, and I expect one of Smart and Young aren't on this team when it's good again.)

 

[Brickowski]

I'm guessing that McLemore is somewhat more available now that the Kings have drafted Stauskas.

Now if they wanted to give Boston Stauskas instead of McLemore in a Rondo deal, I'd be delighted.

 

[bowiac]

Of those 9 teams, how many would Rondo resign with?

Knicks, Lakers, Heat, Rockets, and Mavs?

I think Rondo will resign anywhere if they offer him the most money. NBA free agency is a destination tour if you're a max player, a guy playing for the MLE, or the veteran minimum. For the rest of players (which Rondo is), it works the same way as other sports - guys usually take the paycheck.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think Rondo will resign anywhere if they offer him the most money. NBA free agency is a destination tour if you're a max player, a guy playing for the MLE, or the veteran exception. For the rest of players (which Rondo is), it works the same way as other sports - guys usually take the paycheck.

I agree with this. Rondo is not an elite player where he can name his destination and his paycheck. He's a slightly above avg starting PG (8-12th range) in a league that has a ton of quality starting PG's. Rondo needs teams more than teams need Rondo since most aren't going to overpay for a marginal at best upgrade or no upgrade at all.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
 
The problem is, you can't play Smart in Rondo together because neither of them can shoot the ball at a consistent level.

 
I get that as a 30 minute a game thing, maybe, but it's being overplayed.   First, if your lineup is those two, Green, Olynyk, and Sully (say) you can live without their shooting because two of your bigs are able to pop outside.  Young can do so, and at least last year's Bradley can as well.    
Second, while it isn't ideal, it depends what sets you are running.   Both of those guys can break down their man and get into the paint, and if one has a matchup with a weaker defender that's the offensive focus---and you won't need to have the perimeter kick-out options nearly as much.
 
This isn't to say that shooting isn't a question or that improvement isn't part of beating top teams on that it's a lot more nuanced, and also given where the team is development-wise it isn't something where they MUST make a deal soon for any reason....they should be focused on value and seeing if guys can make it work, not worrying about perfection or hypothetical problems

 

[ifmanis5]

I'm thinking Rondo will have more value at the trade deadline when plans fall through and they realize Rondo is a known commodity.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
I get that as a 30 minute a game thing, maybe, but it's being overplayed.   First, if your lineup is those two, Green, Olynyk, and Sully (say) you can live without their shooting because two of your bigs are able to pop outside.

Plus if this is your lineup you will have another high lottery reinforcement next summer.

 

[RetractableRoof]

 
I get that as a 30 minute a game thing, maybe, but it's being overplayed.   First, if your lineup is those two, Green, Olynyk, and Sully (say) you can live without their shooting because two of your bigs are able to pop outside.  Young can do so, and at least last year's Bradley can as well.    
Second, while it isn't ideal, it depends what sets you are running.   Both of those guys can break down their man and get into the paint, and if one has a matchup with a weaker defender that's the offensive focus---and you won't need to have the perimeter kick-out options nearly as much.
 
This isn't to say that shooting isn't a question or that improvement isn't part of beating top teams on that it's a lot more nuanced, and also given where the team is development-wise it isn't something where they MUST make a deal soon for any reason....they should be focused on value and seeing if guys can make it work, not worrying about perfection or hypothetical problems

I don't know what Ainge really has in mind as his preferred option...  but I'm kind of here with my thinking as well.
 
The other thing to consider is that if the bigs end up drifting to/shooting from the outside, both Rondo and Smart rebound well for guards.  There could be some good that would come out of the pairing other than people simply saying they are both bad outside shooters and can't compliment each other.

 

[Devizier]

Honestly, I think Ainge drafted for his (personal) BPAs and doesn't care about fit whatsoever. The team's going to be *bad* anyways so why bother? Only a couple of the players drafted in the last three seasons has a long term future with the team.

 

[Zososoxfan]

 

 
Looking at your list, Indiana is intriguing. I have no idea if the rosters and salary situations match up, but I have to think Indy is looking to make some changes after last year. Also, for some random reason Rondo on Indy makes sense to me. Lastly, I think Utah is sticking with Trey Burke and is not in the market for a PG. Take this all with a big heaping of salt because you guys have all forgotten more about bball than I will ever know.

 

[the1andonly3003]

 
Looking at your list, Indiana is intriguing. I have no idea if the rosters and salary situations match up, but I have to think Indy is looking to make some changes after last year. Also, for some random reason Rondo on Indy makes sense to me. Lastly, I think Utah is sticking with Trey Burke and is not in the market for a PG. Take this all with a big heaping of salt because you guys have all forgotten more about bball than I will ever know.

 
I am looking at Rondo to PAcers in the ESPN Trade Machine...what players/salaries would the Celtics want back on that roster? would Pacers give up a quarter of the roster for Rondo?
 
Rondo for George Hill?

 

[TroyOLeary]

If Lowry doesn't resign with Toronto, is that a possibility?  Something like Valanciunas + pick + Fields (for salary purposes) for Rondo would be hard to pass on.  There may be no chance Ujiri does that trade, however.

 

[bowiac]

Honestly, I think Ainge drafted for his (personal) BPAs and doesn't care about fit whatsoever. The team's going to be *bad* anyways so why bother? Only a couple of the players drafted in the last three seasons has a long term future with the team.

I think this is correct, both with respect to what Ainge did, and what he should do. The "fit" with Rondo is basically irrelevant in the short term, and odds are Rondo won't be here in the long term.
 
Plus, the hope is Smart learns to shoot. If he doesn't, then it's unclear what his NBA future is regardless.

 

[bowiac]

If Lowry doesn't resign with Toronto, is that a possibility?  Something like Valanciunas + pick + Fields (for salary purposes) for Rondo would be hard to pass on.  There may be no chance Ujiri does that trade, however.

Why not just resign Lowry if they want to pay a point guard?

 

[The Social Chair]

Honestly, I think Ainge drafted for his (personal) BPAs and doesn't care about fit whatsoever. The team's going to be *bad* anyways so why bother? Only a couple of the players drafted in the last three seasons has a long term future with the team.

 
This. The team will still be looking to trade all of its young assests and picks for an All Star. No way are they doing a Philly slow rebuild. Stevens would probably bail to go back to college after next season if that was the case.

 

[TroyOLeary]

Why not just resign Lowry if they want to pay a point guard?

 
That's probably the most likely scenario, I'm just thinking if some other team swoops in and offers him something ridiculous.

 

[Sprowl]

 
I get that as a 30 minute a game thing, maybe, but it's being overplayed.   First, if your lineup is those two, Green, Olynyk, and Sully (say) you can live without their shooting because two of your bigs are able to pop outside. 

 
Also, for Smart's rookie year at least, he is unlikely to be playing full time. Rondo for 30 minutes a game and Smart for 20 as backup PG is a reasonable division of labour until...
 

I'm thinking Rondo will have more value at the trade deadline when plans fall through and they realize Rondo is a known commodity.

 
Rondo's value does seem low for the rest of the offseason, but by the deadline things can change. Rondo showed last year that he knows how to say all the right things about leadership, working with Stevens and buying into the Celtics' "vision" -- but in reality, just like the rest of us, he can see that the Celtics' vision involves Rondo moving on.
 

If Lowry doesn't resign with Toronto, is that a possibility?  Something like Valanciunas + pick + Fields (for salary purposes) for Rondo would be hard to pass on.  There may be no chance Ujiri does that trade, however.

 
What makes you think Ujiri would want to give up on the best big man the Raptors have had... ever? Valanciunas is barely 22, is a legitimate inside presence, and already averages 11 and 9.
 

 
This. The team will still be looking to trade all of its young assests and picks for an All Star. No way are they doing a Philly slow rebuild. Stevens would probably bail to go back to college after next season if that was the case.

 
I disagree -- Stevens signed a six-year contract precisely because he could see that a slow rebuild was the most likely outcome.

 

[Devizier]

What makes you think Ujiri would want to give up on the best big man the Raptors have had... ever? Valanciunas is barely 22, is a legitimate inside presence, and already averages 11 and 9.

 
Not for nothing, but Antonio Davis was pretty solid, although he was at the tail end of his prime in Toronto. And depending on what you think about Amir Johnson, he might have a case, too. Of course, there's Bosh, although he took the fuck off as soon as he could.
 
ETA: Surprised to learn he played out his entire RFA period there. Thought he jetted earlier.
 
That said, the history of big men in Toronto is a tragic one.

 

[The Social Chair]

 
I disagree -- Stevens signed a six-year contract precisely because he could see that a slow rebuild was the most likely outcome.

 
 
Simmons said on the Chad Ford podcast that Stevens took the losing really hard last season, and the organization is worried about what'll happen if a job like UNC opens up.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Also, for Smart's rookie year at least, he is unlikely to be playing full time. Rondo for 30 minutes a game and Smart for 20 as backup PG is a reasonable division of labour until...
 
 

Are you going to break it to Rondo that he isn't playing 38-40 mpg in a contract year? He'll avg his usual 35-37 but that includes garbage time on bench.......in the games that are competitive which are the majority Rondo figures to play 38-40 as he always had. This leaves two 4-minute stints in each half for Smart. That's a very difficult role for a rookie who is accustomed to playing the entire game.

 

[kazuneko]

 
 
Simmons said on the Chad Ford podcast that Stevens took the losing really hard last season, and the organization is worried about what'll happen if a job like UNC opens up.

If the Cs are going to go the "slow rebuild" route I'm not sure anyone should really care about the quality of the team's coaching. That path essentially involves tanking, and the last thing a tanking team needs is a good coach.  So unless Ainge is somehow able to pull off a miracle with a rebuilt Love trade and/or a free agent signing, the decision to hire Stevens is looking like a huge mistake.
ML Carr would have gotten us Wiggins, Parker or Embiid.  I guess we might have lost out on that glorious two game winning streak in the last week of the season though...

 

[bowiac]

I probably prefer Smart to Parker honestly.

 

[kazuneko]

I probably prefer Smart to Parker honestly.

I probably prefer Parker - but I also like Smart.
Thing is, I also like Rondo - and combining him with Wiggins, Parker or Embiid is a bit easier to imagine.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I probably prefer Smart to Parker honestly.

 
I'm with you on this. I'm not sure who Parker's ever going to defend in this league, and I'm not certain he'll be a good enough scorer to make up for that.

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
I'm with you on this. I'm not sure who Parker's ever going to defend in this league, and I'm not certain he'll be a good enough scorer to make up for that.

 
Stoudemire Lite, which means at least the dude is going to get paid.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I think Rondo will resign anywhere if they offer him the most money. NBA free agency is a destination tour if you're a max player, a guy playing for the MLE, or the veteran minimum. For the rest of players (which Rondo is), it works the same way as other sports - guys usually take the paycheck.

 
Disagree.  Rondo plays best (and he knows this) when the TV lights are on.  He's also mentioned needing to be involved in meaningful games.  I think he would take less to play on a playoff contender.
 

 
What makes you think Ujiri would want to give up on the best big man the Raptors have had... ever? Valanciunas is barely 22, is a legitimate inside presence, and already averages 11 and 9.

 
Chris Bosh is waving to you from the cheap seats.

 

[Devizier]

It's hard to see Rondo going anywhere but Los Angeles at this point. They'll have the money, and general manager Kobe Bryant is a fan.

 

[TheDeuce222]

Are you going to break it to Rondo that he isn't playing 38-40 mpg in a contract year? He'll avg his usual 35-37 but that includes garbage time on bench.......in the games that are competitive which are the majority Rondo figures to play 38-40 as he always had. This leaves two 4-minute stints in each half for Smart. That's a very difficult role for a rookie who is accustomed to playing the entire game.

C'mon HRB, you don't really believe that Smart is going to be playing only 8 minutes a night this year, do you?  I know you think Rondo should be traded given bringing in Smart, but do you see Smart as firmly confined to playing point guard now if Rondo is here on opening night? I certainly think that Smart can play both 1 and 2, and play the 10 minutes a game when Rondo is off the floor, and, if Bradley is back, he can play the backup minutes at the 2 as well, for a total of 25 or so.  

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

 
Stoudemire Lite, which means at least the dude is going to get paid.

 
"Lite"

 

[Eddie Jurak]

 
 
That said, the history of big men in Toronto is a tragic one.

Although less tragic than the history of big men in Portland.

 

[bowiac]

Disagree.  Rondo plays best (and he knows this) when the TV lights are on.  He's also mentioned needing to be involved in meaningful games.  I think he would take less to play on a playoff contender.

Maybe. But from experience with other sports without the NBA's salary cap quirks, almost everyone ends up taking the money, regardless of "fit". Can you think of many NBA players in Rondo's situation who took less to play for a contender? I remember Lamar Odom - that's it though.

 

[scottyno]

Maybe. But from experience with other sports without the NBA's salary cap quirks, almost everyone ends up taking the money, regardless of "fit". Can you think of many NBA players in Rondo's situation who took less to play for a contender? I remember Lamar Odom - that's it though.

lebron and bosh took less to play with miami

 

[The Social Chair]

If the Cs are going to go the "slow rebuild" route I'm not sure anyone should really care about the quality of the team's coaching. That path essentially involves tanking, and the last thing a tanking team needs is a good coach.  So unless Ainge is somehow able to pull off a miracle with a rebuilt Love trade and/or a free agent signing, the decision to hire Stevens is looking like a huge mistake.
ML Carr would have gotten us Wiggins, Parker or Embiid.  I guess we might have lost out on that glorious two game winning streak in the last week of the season though...

 
It matters with young players. Poor coaching and "tanking" can lead to poor development/habits of young players. It affected Antione Walker's career and last year could have a really bad long term impact on Michael Cater-Williams career.

 

[swingin val]

lebron and bosh took less to play with miami

Was mentioned earlier but we are talking about mid-tier talents, not superstars. Rondo isn't going to have multi million dollar endorsements.

 

[kazuneko]

Maybe. But from experience with other sports without the NBA's salary cap quirks, almost everyone ends up taking the money, regardless of "fit". Can you think of many NBA players in Rondo's situation who took less to play for a contender? I remember Lamar Odom - that's it though.

Lebron, Bosh and Wade all took less to play in Miami. Howard took less to play in Houston. I think this offseason, you'll see Lebron, Wade and Bosh do the same again, and it's likely Carmelo will also choose this route. Honestly, the trend in the NBA appears to be moving in that direction.
If the Cs lose 50 next year I can't imagine Rondo returns. And if he does, it will only be because he doesn't generate the type of interest he was hoping for from the teams he wants to play for - not because of the money.

 

[bowiac]

Lebron, Bosh and Wade all took less to play in Miami. Howard took less to play in Houston. I think this offseason, you'll see Lebron, Wade and Bosh do the same again, and it's likely Carmelo will also choose this route. Honestly, the trend in the NBA appears to be moving in that direction.
If the Cs lose 50 next year I can't imagine Rondo returns. And if he does, it will only be because he doesn't generate the type of interest he was hoping for from the teams he wants to play for - not because of the money.

As I said above, this only happens with max guys, MLE guys, and veteran minimum guys. Rondo is not LeBron, Bosh, Wade or Howard. That's what I meant by "in Rondo's situation" - someone signing a long term free agent contract for more than a salary cap exception, but less than the max.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

C'mon HRB, you don't really believe that Smart is going to be playing only 8 minutes a night this year, do you?  I know you think Rondo should be traded given bringing in Smart, but do you see Smart as firmly confined to playing point guard now if Rondo is here on opening night? I certainly think that Smart can play both 1 and 2, and play the 10 minutes a game when Rondo is off the floor, and, if Bradley is back, he can play the backup minutes at the 2 as well, for a total of 25 or so.  

IF Rondo is here they will have to play some together which I see which won't matter results wise since we won't be contending but it won't be pretty to watch. Smart needs the ball in his hands to be effective offensively as he's not a catch and shoot guy and didn't appear very comfortable moving without the ball.

I was only commenting on the distribution of minutes posed.

 

[RetractableRoof]

IF Rondo is here they will have to play some together which I see which won't matter results wise since we won't be contending but it won't be pretty to watch. Smart needs the ball in his hands to be effective offensively as he's not a catch and shoot guy and didn't appear very comfortable moving without the ball.

I quote for context - not singling you out for an answer/comment...
 
I am hearing more of this type of thing... boiling down to the fact that Rondo and Smart can't/won't co-exist.  Some people are already assuming Rondo will be petulant or the Alpha dog and there will be some sort of Ray Allen part deux situation... others are saying their skills just won't compliment each other and can't be on the floor at the same time.
 
In the other thread there is a reference to things that many college players typical improve on: strength/bulk and shooting.
 
So now my question is:  why can't a smart, motivated player who's athletic skills may previously have allowed him to get by on genetic gifts be taught how to be more of a team centric player with complimentary player skill sets?  People are saying that McDermott will be taught to play defense in Chicago by Thibideau.  Why can't a good teaching coach with a good rapport be able to teach the value of spacing, moving without the ball, and team centric skills?  Garnett (a peer) beat defensive responsibility into those who would listen.
 
Is it that once they get to the NBA they stop learning because of the trappings of the game/environment?  Is it simply motivation?  Why do we think that players in general can't learn this stuff unless it is already part of their basketball DNA from AAU days?  
 
Genuine questions here... because the military certainly can take adults from all walks of life and convert them to effective tools in the military machine (granted they have total "ownership" or commitment of the people they are training).  People walk into martial arts dojos and learn to become effective fighters.  People learn musical instruments later in life.  Why are NBA (and perhaps football players changing systems/terminology as well) athletes assumed to be 'unteachable' in this context?  Are there just not enough practice hours in the NBA schedule?
 
Edit: typos and clarity
 
Love to hear answers to this question stream...

 

[Brickowski]

IMHO the question is not Rondo and Smart coexisting, it's whether or not Rondo fits with the team as a whole.
 
Rondo is a star going into free agency for the first time.  Assuming he's 100% (and I have no reason to believe he won't be), he's going to put up great numbers: plenty of double doubles and triple doubles.  He will dominate the ball and showcase his skills (which are considerable).
 
But that may not  be the best thing for the rest of the team, especially for the development of Smart and the other young players.  Last year the team offense was often better with Pressey pushing the ball instead of Rondo walking it up on the majority of possessions.