Time for Clemency - Is Roger overdue?

What do you think of Roger Clemens these days?

  • Still dead to me - keep him in the jerkstore

    Votes: 122 50.6%
  • Time heals all wounds, but I don't want his number up there

    Votes: 57 23.7%
  • Time heals all wounds, and retire his number.

    Votes: 47 19.5%
  • Was always a fan in spite of everything

    Votes: 15 6.2%

  • Total voters
    241

grimshaw

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It has been 20 seasons since Roger Clemens last threw a pitch for the Red Sox and his career ended 10 years ago, several months after Suzanne Waldman adopted him in the booth. Along with Bonds, McGwire and company, he was a poster boy for one of the darkest eras of the sport.

After several years of retirement, Roger has been sprinkling in some appearances with the Red Sox, a tv inning here and there, a full game just the other day, and an on field appearance in uniform during the '86 team anniversary.

I don't recall if the reaction was mixed or not when he actually signed with the Jays, but the fan base was less than pleased with Duquette when he then proceeded to pitch out of his mind again. The hate came in full force during the height of the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry from 1999-2003, and he became even more reviled after misremembering his steroid use despite overwhelming evidence.

Me - I think he has long since suffered enough. The Sox have since won three World Series. The angst of a player leaving for the Yankees is now greatly muted (unless you forever hate Andrew Miller), and PED's were so widespread that singling out one of the players who got caught seems excessive. Not only should he be in Cooperstown, but I'd be fine with having his number retired.

Just want to add this for reference, that the Giants are considering retiring Barry Bonds' number so maybe enough time has passed for many mlb fans.

What do you all think?
 
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Lose Remerswaal

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He's also doing a bunch of charity work for and thru the Sox, with him throwing BP to many winning bidders.

Time doesn't heal ALL wounds (Bucky Dent is never welcome in my kitchen) but it wasn't Clemens' fault that the Sox thought he was in the twilight of his career
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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For what it's worth, Andrew Miller was traded to the Orioles and signed with the Yankees as a free agent. I don't think he even counts on the angst scale of those that both chose to leave Boston and then chose to go to the Yankees a la Damon, Ellsbury, Clemens, Boggs, etc.

I never had any real angst over Clemens going to the Yankees because it was the Yankees. The only thing that bothered me about his leaving was his claims of only wanting to leave Boston to be closer to his family in Texas, then signing in Toronto for as much money as he could get. Then he wormed his way to the Bronx to win rings before finally going home to Houston. Don't say shit you know you don't mean just because you think it's what fans want to hear. Same thing as Damon declaring he'd never sign with the Yankees then doing it. I don't blame either one for going, just don't say things that are guaranteed to make you look hypocritical.

All that said, I couldn't care less if Clemens gets in the Hall of Fame or has his number retired. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't, fine. But I do like that he has a presence as a former Red Sox player, same as Dewey and Tiante and all those other guys who make occasional visits to the Legends suite.
 

jose melendez

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Screw him. He left, juiced to the gills, orchestrated his trade to the Yankees and then after teasing a Sox come back (not that I wanted him) did his big Yankee Suzyn Waldman come back. Fuck him.
 

Curt S Loew

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He's also doing a bunch of charity work for and thru the Sox, with him throwing BP to many winning bidders.

Time doesn't heal ALL wounds (Bucky Dent is never welcome in my kitchen) but it wasn't Clemens' fault that the Sox thought he was in the twilight of his career
I can't believe even after all these years people still say that. Duquette actually said "we had hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career"

That's certainly not saying they didn't sign him because he was in the twilight of his career.
 

E5 Yaz

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I agree with Red that the "going home .... by way of Toronto ... storyline is difficult to let slide, although that's mitigated by Duquette's stupid comment. (And, even saying something that suggested Clemens was nearing the twilight was dumb.)

For me, though, it's Game 6 of the '86 Series that lingers foremost. If he asked out of that game (as McNamara claims) then it's harder to swallow. If he was pulled without his asking to go (as Clemens claims), then he gets a pass.

That they haven't given out the number and yet haven't retired it is foolish. It belongs up there.
 

Koufax

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I don't care any more that he played for the Yankees. I've forgiven Wade Boggs for that. It's the juice and the constant denial of juice despite all the evidence. He's a liar and a cheat. Build a statue of him at the Toilet.
 

charlieoscar

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and PED's were so widespread that singling out one of the players who got caught seems excessive.
When did he get caught? He never tested positive and he was acquitted of lying to Congress? Frankly, I agree that with the widespread use of PEDs there is little sense in castigating some players while turning a blind eye to others. Besides, no one even complains about the wide-spread use of amphetamines that was common for many years and there are a couple of Hall of Famers who supposedly weren't entirely clean with regards to betting on games.

As for people who are anti-Clemens just because he played for the Yankees, well, they should probably just stand in the corner for a while.
 

Rasputin

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Screw him. He left, juiced to the gills, orchestrated his trade to the Yankees and then after teasing a Sox come back (not that I wanted him) did his big Yankee Suzyn Waldman come back. Fuck him.
Yup.

Also remember that Dan Duquette did not say Roger was in the twilight of his career, but that he wanted the bastard in a Sox uniform into the twilight of his career.

Also, the Sox made him an offer to be with the Red Sox for life and Roger didn't bother to read it.

Fuck Roger Clemens and fuck him for life.
 

grimshaw

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When did he get caught? He never tested positive and he was acquitted of lying to Congress?
He wasn't "caught" caught, but I was referring to the Mitchell report.

As to the Red Sox offer, I think it was something like 4 yrs where his salary went down each year. Not that contracts like that don't make sense on paper, but I don't think that was the norm back then.
 
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Curt S Loew

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Whatever was said or wasn't said, it wasn't Roger's fault that the Sox let him leave when they could have kept him.
That's just like your opinion, man. I know I was truly amazed at the pitcher the Blue Jays got. I guess if you squinted you could tell it was the Roger Clemens the Sox let go.
 

shaggydog2000

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I'm not offended personally by him leaving the Sox, playing for the Yankees, doing steroids, or by coming up short in any particular game in the playoffs or otherwise. People did/do all of those things without me caring for more than a minute or two. He's just in a class with Barry Bonds for doing something I could forgive other people for, but don't forgive him because he just seems to be an indignant asshole. Maybe in real life he's the best dude ever, I've never met him and it is kind of unfair to judge the character and personality of someone just from what you see in the media. But there is just so much from him that I've seen that makes him look like a total asshat that I really don't want to hear about him ever again.
 

Ramon AC

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Fuck Roger Clemens. Fuck him for the eyeblack/ninja turtle shoelace holder fiasco in the 1990 ALCS, fuck him for leaving, fuck him for going to the Yankees, fuck him for the Piazza beaning and subsequent bat throwing incident, fuck him for going BACK to the Yankees, and fuck him for continuing to lie about PEDs. I don't care about steroids, I think Clemens/Bonds/McGwire/Sosa should all be in the HOF, but keep Fat Billy from Ohio away from the Red Sox until he shows some contrition.

Edit @shaggydog2000, I did some work with a PR firm in Austin TX a few years ago that had Clemens as a client. To a man they said he was a horrible pain in the ass.
 

Average Reds

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When did he get caught? He never tested positive and he was acquitted of lying to Congress? Frankly, I agree that with the widespread use of PEDs there is little sense in castigating some players while turning a blind eye to others. Besides, no one even complains about the wide-spread use of amphetamines that was common for many years and there are a couple of Hall of Famers who supposedly weren't entirely clean with regards to betting on games.

As for people who are anti-Clemens just because he played for the Yankees, well, they should probably just stand in the corner for a while.
I can forgive any player for looking out for himself in terms of his contractual dealings with teams. It's a business and always has been. I can forgive (almost) any player for taking PEDs back in the day for similar reasons.

What I cannot forgive is someone who uses his immense wealth not just to manipulate the legal system and buy his freedom, but to then use that same system to destroy the one man who dared tell the truth about him. Brian McNamee Is no saint, but when push came to shove he told the truth. And Clemens revealed his character when he tossed everyone - including Andy Pettitte and his own wife - under the bus in his attempt to destroy McNamee.

Those who say that nothing has ever been proven about Clemens might want to spend time learning about how McNamee's defamation suit against Clemens ended up. The short version is that after more than five years of scorched-earth legal tactics (earning sanctions for his lawyers from an angry federal judge) Clemens finally exhausted his legal motions to suppress the evidence of his PED use. At that point, he was informed by the insurance companies who provided his umbrella coverage that he either had to settle or face the prospect of paying damages awarded at trial from his own pocket. Like the coward he is, he settled and then issued a public statement claiming that he never paid anything.

Rasputin is right. Fuck that coward. Fuck him for life.
 
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drbretto

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I have no problem with him being completely hated in Boston, so I wouldn't support his number being retired here.

He was one of the absolute greatest pitchers of all time and should be in the Hall of Fame. His era was tainted with PEDs, and I don't like picking and choosing who we THINK was clean or not, so either no one from that era should be in, or the best of the best from that era should still be up there with the best of the best in any other era.
 

m0ckduck

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Fuck Roger Clemens. Fuck him for the eyeblack/ninja turtle shoelace holder fiasco in the 1990 ALCS, fuck him for leaving, fuck him for going to the Yankees, fuck him for the Piazza beaning and subsequent bat throwing incident, fuck him for going BACK to the Yankees, and fuck him for continuing to lie about PEDs. I don't care about steroids, I think Clemens/Bonds/McGwire/Sosa should all be in the HOF, but keep Fat Billy from Ohio away from the Red Sox until he shows some contrition.

Edit @shaggydog2000, I did some work with a PR firm in Austin TX a few years ago that had Clemens as a client. To a man they said he was a horrible pain in the ass.
This is letter-perfect.

I actually think his number should be retired. Since he was... you know... objectively the best pitcher in Red Sox history and all. I just don't plan on surrendering my god-given right to dislike him. The post above nails every off-key thing about Roger's personality (although I'd add all the sons with K initials and Debby Clemens complaining "I don't know what Roger ever did to them"). And it's not like we won anything with him here, nor did he ever contribute a dominant postseason outing.

He always seemed like a shitty guy who happened to be able to throw a ball really hard.
 

EdRalphRomero

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He was out of shape and mediocre over his last 2 years in Boston. If you throw in 1993 (leaving 1994 out because hate can cherry-pick as much as it wants) when he was 11-14 with a 4.46 ERA, he absolutely was responsible for leaving Boston. He has admitted he did not exercise and let himself go.

And you can precisely target when he started using PEDs. It was in between the 1996 and 1997 seasons. 1996 -- fat, old Roger was 10-13. 1997 Blue Jay Roger was 21-7 with a 2.05 ERA. Which means he only cared enough to cheat after he left Boston. And it also means you can clearly see what he would have been without PEDs -- probably a guy who limps his way to 200 wins and would go down as HOF peek and an abbreviated career. So fuck him on both counts.

Others have illuminated all the personal reasons that Baseball Hitler sucks (although naming all your kids starting with "K" because you strike people out warrants a narcissistic mention). But I fucking hate him because he acted like the Red Sox gave up on him, when he clearly started working out and cheating (to me anyway, I admit to no specific proof) after he left.

Fuck him.

edit: Just saw M0ckduck's post. You said it brother.
 

mauidano

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I vote for "let it go already". Man, the hate towards this guy. He pitched his ass off for the Sox when he wore the uniform. Baseball is a business and he chased the money. So got swept up in the Steroid Era. How many others were there? How many of you are hating on Papi when in all likelihood he was as well? And are you hating on Manny Ramirez with all that venom? Stop carrying a grudge, it's not like you were married to him. He just worked for the organization and did his job.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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This is letter-perfect.

I actually think his number should be retired. Since he was... you know... objectively the best pitcher in Red Sox history and all. I just don't plan on surrendering my god-given right to dislike him. The post above nails every off-key thing about Roger's personality (although I'd add all the sons with K initials and Debby Clemens complaining "I don't know what Roger ever did to them"). And it's not like we won anything with him here, nor did he ever contribute a dominant postseason outing.

He always seemed like a shitty guy who happened to be able to throw a ball really hard.
Cy Young might have a pretty good case, too.
 

brs3

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My fandom awoke the year after he left, so I remember his incredible dominance after he left rather than the greatness he had with the Sox, and the hate washed away with the titles. I know he was great, but I'm indifferent for the most part. That being said, I don't think his number should be retired. It's been 20 years since it's been issued, so they might as well lift the ban and let someone else wear #21. Nomar's number wasn't given out for 5 years, and that's fair. 20 years for an eventual hall of famer with baggage seems like a fair amount of time to 'respect' the career and toss the number back into circulation

I go back and forth on the retired number thing. It's cool to have a ceremony, cool to buy a hat with that player's number, but I bet the majority of 100 Yankee fans can't identify every number they've retired. I don't want the Sox to become that.
 

Ale Xander

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Roger's # deserves to be up on the RF facade more than a couple already there. He was arguably the best pitcher of his era. He is Bonds-like in that he was/should have been a HOF'er pre-cheating. We're just spoiled since we got Pedro right after and he is a good person and interview to go along with the dominance.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Me - I think he has long since suffered enough.
How has he "suffered"?

He had the right to leave for Toronto even though he said repeatedly he would only ever leave to go closer to his "home" of Texas. He got paid, good for him. He chose that over becoming a Red Sox icon for life. So he should stick to his choice, keep his money and not be a Red Sox icon for life. No one owes him anything. We lose nothing by leaving things as they are, as he chose.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I've always wondered why they never gave out #21 to anyone after Clemens left. Under the Yawkey regime, the only players who got that courtesy, even before they started officially retiring numbers, were guys that were legends and future Hall of Famers who played their entire career in Boston (Williams, Yaz, Rice).

While Clemens was a great pitcher in his time in Boston, he left under acrimonious circumstances and his Hall of Fame prospects were by no means a lock. Seems an odd choice to honor him while the numbers of other great Red Sox who fit a similar profile (great with the Sox, but left and finished their careers elsewhere) like Fisk and Boggs and Evans were worn by plenty of other players once they left.

The new regime has been looser with their standards for retiring numbers, putting up Pesky and Boggs and now Ortiz despite none fitting the old criteria, but they still haven't unofficially retired any number without clearly intending to put it on the facade. Except Clemens. They continue to hold that number out.

I wonder if that's intentional on the team's part or if players just don't want the number. I remember talk of Beckett maybe wearing it since he wore it in Miami, but he that he elected not to out of respect for Clemens. Have other players done the same thing over the years or is the number truly out of circulation?
 

Leather

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My aunt got me a Clemens t shirt for my 11th birthday, which was April, 1990. I was so disappointed that it wasn't, basically, anybody else on the team.

That being said, he totally deserved the 1990 Cy Young and I remember being livid when he didn't get it.
 

Leather

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While Clemens was a great pitcher in his time in Boston, he left under acrimonious circumstances and his Hall of Fame prospects were by no means a lock.
Just one nitpick: when Clemens departed Boston, he had won 3 Cy Young awards, one MVP award, won 20+ games 3 times, led the league in Ks numerous times, and in ERA numerous times. He was a lock for the HOF. Maybe not first ballot, but there's no way he wasn't getting in.

And while others have covered it, there was no real reason to believe he had more than another 4-5 years of mediocre ball left in him when the Duke made the "twilight" comment. He was 33, after all.
 

Kliq

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Roger's # deserves to be up on the RF facade more than a couple already there. He was arguably the best pitcher of his era. He is Bonds-like in that he was/should have been a HOF'er pre-cheating. We're just spoiled since we got Pedro right after and he is a good person and interview to go along with the dominance.
I think Clemens is one of the five best pitchers of the last 40-50 years along with Pedro, Johnson, Maddux and Carlton. My view on the PED guys is that they should get in but the bar of excellence is raised. If PEDs make you 10 percent better it should be 10 percent easier to make it into the Hall of Fame. I think Barry Bonds and Clemens are high enough over the typical standard of a HOF career that the fact they used PEDs isn't a real factor. Someone like Andy Pettitte is borderline enough that PEDs do matter.

I'm way too young to have a real opinion on if Clemens number should be retired. All I know is that his numbers for the Red Sox are among the best in franchise history, which goes back more than a century.
 

threecy

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My favorite pitcher growing up, and tied with Lester for my favorite now.

I say no.

If he gets into the HOF, then reconsider.
 

soxfan121

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He (and Bonds, and Rose) belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is a history museum, FFS. How you tell the history of baseball without the two of the best players from the steroid era is beyond me. Put 'em in, put a statue of a syringe in the area and put up a plaque explaining what happened and why. Baseball "purists" need to take a long walk off a short pier.

It is inevitable that Hollywood Tom is gonna put on a tremendous Roger Clemens Night, complete with number retirement very soon. I am torn: buy a ticket so I can boo the shit out of him, or pretend it isn't happening and try to block out the cheers that the undeserving assface is going to get.
 

pedro1918

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drleather2001 said:
And while others have covered it, there was no real reason to believe he had more than another 4-5 years of mediocre ball left in him when the Duke made the "twilight" comment. He was 33, after all.
If my memory serves, I recall he had stated he had no intention of being another Nolan Ryan and pitching into his forties. I guess his "rebirth" gave him reason to revise that opinion, along with all that cash.

For the record, he's dead to me. If he ever gets in to the HOF, and I really don't care if it happens, I hope he puts the Yankee logo on his fat head. I get a little sick to my stomach every time he makes a Red Sox related appearance. I'd give 21 to the next schlub utility infielder who comes through town.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I'm pettier than all of you. He came out of game 6. (Whereas, for example, Jack Morris famously refused to come out after 9 innings in game 7.) For that reason, and all the others mentioned, especially screwing over Toronto so he could go - where? - to the MFYs, fuck him. Forever. And retire his number? Jesus... :rolleyes:
 

shaggydog2000

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I'm pettier than all of you. He came out of game 6. (Whereas, for example, Jack Morris famously refused to come out after 9 innings in game 7.) For that reason, and all the others mentioned, especially screwing over Toronto so he could go - where? - to the MFYs, fuck him. Forever. And retire his number? Jesus... :rolleyes:
I'm just as petty. I know he belongs in the Hall of Fame, he was more than good enough. But every time he and Bonds don't make it, a part of me delights in the schadenfreude.
 

InstaFace

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Average Reds makes a very solid point about the way he treated McNamee, which has given me pause. I couldn't care less about his departure, his destination, or what he injected into his ass, but that is Lance Armstrong-level douchebaggery.

I vote for "let it go already". Man, the hate towards this guy. He pitched his ass off for the Sox when he wore the uniform. Baseball is a business and he chased the money. So got swept up in the Steroid Era. How many others were there? How many of you are hating on Papi when in all likelihood he was as well? And are you hating on Manny Ramirez with all that venom? Stop carrying a grudge, it's not like you were married to him. He just worked for the organization and did his job.
Whoa whoa whoa. Firstly, on the bolded, I think that was the initial origins of the antipathy - that he let himself go his last 4 years in Boston, and the results showed it.

But on the underlined, I think I speak for the big fella when I echo his words: they ain't gonna find nothin' but rice and beans, man (and never were, and never did). We Red Sox fans need to be spreading that message, not abiding innuendo or echoing rumor - because if we don't, we'll be doing a disservice to one of our heroes.
 

SumnerH

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When did he get caught? He never tested positive and he was acquitted of lying to Congress? Frankly, I agree that with the widespread use of PEDs there is little sense in castigating some players while turning a blind eye to others. Besides, no one even complains about the wide-spread use of amphetamines that was common for many years
Nobody complains about Eddie Cicotte throwing a spitball or pitchers throwing off high mounds in the 60s either. Amphetamines were neither against the rules of baseball nor illegal until 1971; complaining about 1960s players using them is silly and not comparable.
 

Oil Can Dan

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I was 15 years old in 1986, and upon reflection I think Roger was my first true love. But thanks to Pedro and the intensity of the 2004 postseason and the future success of the Sox, I look back and can barely remember it at all.

Roger is a whatever to me.
 

Rasputin

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Whatever was said or wasn't said, it wasn't Roger's fault that the Sox let him leave when they could have kept him.
Of course it's Roger's fault. The Red Sox offered him a lifetime contract and he didn't even read it because he wanted to go play for the Blue Jays with that illegal side deal where he'd get to demand they trade him if they sucked. And he got all roided up and was great and they sucked and he forced a trade to the birthplace of everything evil that has ever plagued mankind.

He stood on the precipice. He walked that line between good and evil that runs through the heart of everyone and he woke up one day and said, "Eh, fuckit, lets do some evil today."

He's a disgusting shitburger and a coward.
 

m0ckduck

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Cy Young might have a pretty good case, too.
If we're talking about only the Red Sox parts of their careers, it's definitely Roger. He pitched 13 seasons in a Sox uniform vs. 8 for Cy. He had a (slightly) better ERA+, and of course much higher bWAR due to the extra 5 seasons. The argument for Young would have to be based around stuff like 'He pitched 380 innings in 1902!' and 'He never rode a horse around Yankee stadium!'
 

threecy

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Whoa whoa whoa. Firstly, on the bolded, I think that was the initial origins of the antipathy - that he let himself go his last 4 years in Boston, and the results showed it.
I call BS on that.

His 1993 performance was subpar, in part because he pitched through injuries. Even then, he was still above average.

In 1994, he led the league in ERA+ and was second in ERA and Ks, prior to the strike ending the season.
In 1995, he was injured again, but still had an above average season and won two thirds of his decisions.
In 1996, he was one of the best in the AL, leading the league in Ks and finishing in the top 10 in ERA and IP.
 

BoSoxLady

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I can't believe even after all these years people still say that. Duquette actually said "we had hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career"

That's certainly not saying they didn't sign him because he was in the twilight of his career.
Yet another twist by the Boston media. Clemens used the "twilight" line to get in shape and reinvent himself in Toronto.

I will never forgive Clemens. It makes me ill when he's in the booth or on the radio.

He's an arrogant jerk and I wish the Sox would stand clear of him. It'll make me puke if they retire his number.
 

charlieoscar

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Amphetamines were neither against the rules of baseball nor illegal until 1971; complaining about 1960s players using them is silly and not comparable.
Bull. Amphetamines stimulate the central nervous system and were taken to fight fatigue and improve endurance, fight hangovers, as pick-me-ups after late-night partying. If that is not a form of Performance Enhancing Drug, then what do you call it?

Did baseball say, "Oh, gee, greenies are terrible. You'll all have to stop taking them." Or was it the government that decided they could no longer be sold over the counter? Cocaine and heroin was once legal in this country until it was learned how dangerous the drugs really were and the government said no.
 

4 6 3 DP

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Sox could have kept him signed for life. They didn't. Once he left Boston, fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Was my first baseball hero. He was our a-hole for 13 seasons. I don't care that much who is on the wall, but Roger's case IMO is rock solid.