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Time for a rebuild?

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by crazybird1, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. Byrdbrain

    Byrdbrain Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Certainly true but at least the top 2 starters pitched well the last 2 times out, not as starters but hopefully it is something to build on.
    They will need to make some changes but this the nucleus of a team that will compete for the next several years.
     
  2. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Doesn’t really signal a rebuild though. More of an indictment on the coaching staff than anything. But as for next year the team is pretty much set. I don’t think you’re going to see them make a lot of changes with the rotation but I would absolutely keep the core of Betts Devers Benny Sale and even though he puked all over himself today Kimbrel. Everyone else is available in trades. I also wouldn’t just give away Price as he showed some serious balls this post season. So I have hope there.

    I would get a new coaching staff. Get rid of everyone. Ask Butterfield if he wants to be an infield coach or something anything but the 3rd base coach. However I think DD will extend Farrell after they won game 3.
     
  3. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    True. My post was a preemptive shot against, Kerrigan must, must be fired. "He doesn't put his players in a position to succeed."

    Really. If your starters suck ass, what is Kerrigan supposed to do, take the mound himself?
     
  4. Spelunker

    Spelunker Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Flashbacks?
     
  5. Byrdbrain

    Byrdbrain Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    How is starters sucking an indictment of the coaching staff?
    Also no one worth listening to is talking about giving away Price. Hopefully he is healed and he pitches essentially a full year next year. I think he seems like a bit of a dick but the man can pitch and that is what I look for in guys that pitch for the team I root for.

    I will not argue about Butterfield and 3B coach, I like aggressive but takes it too far.
     
  6. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This sabermetric shit goes right over my head
     
  7. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, that send of Moreland was mind-boggling. One of the slowest runners on the team has no chance of scoring on a ball in front of the left fielder at Fenway Park. Hell, sending Mookie or Bogaerts there would have been questionable.
     
  8. Stitch01

    Stitch01 Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Yeah, this. I'm fine with fire Farrell, but I don't think it solves a run prevention focused team with WOAT playoff starting pitching. Starters gotta pitch better.
     
  9. czar

    czar fanboy SoSH Member

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    I mean, I'm relatively indifferent towards Farrell, I guess -- but I have yet to see a piece of objective (i.e., not "remember that one game this one time!") evidence that Farrell has cost the Red Sox numerous games.

    I'm aware that's a losing battle with a rather visceral fanbase (and SoSH has definitely tilted away from analytics since the Theo era), but unless someone shows me that a manger's in-game decisions are critically important and predictive year-to-year, I'd much rather trust the team's soft analysis of managers (how they handle the clubhouse, ability to use statistical data, etc.).

    The Red Sox lost the series because the Astros were better when it mattered. As much as the Monday morning QBs protest, I can't really imagine John Farrell managing the rotation/games differently that solves the problem of A) the SP sucking and B) offense not coming through when they needed to.
     
  10. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

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    Sorry I just read Moneyball so it's still fresh.
     
  11. tonyarmasjr

    tonyarmasjr Member SoSH Member

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    Oh, great...this strawman again. You can't objectively measure the value of one manager over another, let alone all the managers together. The data is just too hard to identify, collect, and interpret. Therefore, Farrell sucks, since he doesn't properly manage the bullpen.

    First!
     
  12. Norm Siebern

    Norm Siebern Member SoSH Member

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    Moneyball. Isn’t that that book by Billy Beane? Have to read that this off season.
     
  13. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

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    Sorry, I read the Sorkin script - no idea what you're talking about.
     
  14. johnnywayback

    johnnywayback Member SoSH Member

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    One question I have is whether, given the direction of the game (less reliance on starters pitching 200 innings and elite relievers only pitching the 9th), there's a way to discern which relievers are likely to succeed in the multi-inning, flexible-use Chris Devenski / Andrew Miller role.

    Our best relievers going into next year appear to be guys with health (Smith, Thornburg, Workman) or comfort/effectiveness (Kimbrel, who didn't throw more than 33 pitches in any appearance all year, per today's broadcast) concerns that would limit them from being that guy. Finding one or two pitchers who might be more flexible in their use to add to the bullpen mix seems like a worthwhile offseason priority, and I hope that whatever remains of the enterprise analytics team has some thoughts on who to target.
     
  15. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Farrell pulled all the right switches. Just that his starting pitcher blew up in all 4 games, and then his bullpen ace coughs up a key run at the end.

    It's hard to win the division multiple years in a row. Which only makes the first round exit even more disappointing. Let's hope they can build on it and come back stronger next year.
     
  16. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    I’m not a Farrell fan, but you can’t blame him for the atrocious post-season performance of the team’s starters or Kimbrel’s struggles today. (Reddick’s bleeder and Beltran’s F7-anywhere-except-Fenway hits weren’t good, but they came off of okay pitches. Over-amped wildness was his problem, which is why he should come into clean innings and not be a 4-out closer except against shitty lineups.) No way do the Sox fire him after winning the division two years in a row. He’s not a great manager, but he’s not the problem.

    Edit: What Lexrageorge said.
     
  17. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Kerrigan should never have been named manager in the first place. Talk
    Kerrigan should never have been named manager in the first place. Talk about an over matched incompetent fool! Are you suffering post concussion symptoms? Kerrigan was so 2002...LOL
     
    #217 richgedman'sghost, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  18. asimonetti

    asimonetti Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    One middle of lineup bat to replace ortiz, a bit of luck on the injury front earlier this year, and I think the team would have won 7-10 more games. Great core and as has been mentioned already, under control for a while.
     
  19. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    It seems that the "Andrew Miller role" has been exaggerated in people's minds. What he did last October is not really how he was used during the regular season this year. His season high pitch count this season was 35. He reached 30+ pitches only 6 times in 57 total appearances. His longest outing was 2 innings (6 times).

    He is a very good reliever, but his usage patterns in the regular season aren't all that different than how Matt Barnes was used most of the year.
     
  20. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Starters might have mechanical issues that go unnoticed through the season or they need scouting reports on certain players and in certain situations. It’s absolutely an indictment of the staff. Carl Willis might not be the sole reason for the 11 ERA for starters in the post season but the staff isn’t improving at all. Who has he made better? This is the guy who when hired was credited as the guy who essentially created Cliff Lee. The players aren’t listening to him or he doesn’t know how to reach them.

    Davis helmed a lineup which was subpar top to bottom compared to last year.

    Training staff either doesn’t know how to diagnose knees such as Pedey ERod and Nunez or it’s just been a strange coincidence this year.

    The manager has made baffling decisions. Such as expecting Matt Barnes to keep performing in high leverage situations on the road over and over again and watching him get drilled over and over again.

    But people believe all is good because they won 93 games and won back to back East titles. While not understanding that this is the absolute peak for this core unless something changes. Roster needs leaders. Bottom line. A Gomes or Victorino type. Maybe it’s just changing the manager for the sake of a new voice but it’s time.

    I’ll be pumped to raise the back to back AL East title banners as much as anyone else here but I think a team with a 200 million dollar payroll should be shooting higher.
     
    #220 Tyrone Biggums, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  21. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Someone made the decision to keep Sale out there in the 8th despite 3 right handers due up. Isn't that what they acquired Reed for?

    Someone also made the decision to baby Kimbrel all season by not having him pitch multiple innings in order to save him for the postseason. And then when he was babied he came into the game in the 8th today, the very spot they were saving him for, and puked all over his shoes.

    Someone made the decision to give a postseason start to Devin Fucking Marrerro.

    Someone made the decision to have Moreland pinch hit against Devinski despite the fact that Devenski has reverse splits and is absolute murder on LH batters.

    Farrell's decision-making in this series was mind-boggling. His starting pitchers were completely unprepared to pitch to Houston's lineup. It's like they did no scouting or preparation at all.

    He is part of the problem, and if I had my druthers the entire coaching staff would be gone. They were totally overmatched and embarrassed in this series by a guy who's not exactly considered Earl Weaver in Hinch.
     
  22. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    And as for the back to back division titles nonsense, that's exactly the same argument people used to make for Rex Ryan about making it to back to back AFCCG with Mark Sanchez as his QB. Ultimately it's a hollow achievement that means nothing. How about winning a series or two?
     
  23. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    I know it's annoying to hear but the baseball playoffs are largely random, or at least way more so than the NFL.

    That said, I won't shed a tear if Farrell gets canned.
     
  24. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Also, the baserunning of the team has been awful every year he's been here. This was also a problem with his Toronto teams.

    He's simply not a good enough manager.
     
  25. streeter88

    streeter88 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Maybe it's too soon, but I wonder if we need a poll - and I am not sure how to create one. The title would be something like this:

    Thanks 2017 Red Sox - you played hard, but were let down by bad management. Who should be fired?
    1. John Farrell
    2. Chili Davis
    3. Carl Willis
    4. Medical Staff
    5. Farrell and Davis
    6. Farrell and Willis
    7. All of the above, and if that means firing someone twice, I am for it.
    SJH, if it is too soon, or in bad taste / form, then do it at another time. But I agree with all of your posts above.
     
  26. Valek123

    Valek123 Member SoSH Member

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    7. I can not stand watching Farrell, the hitters regressed across the board and the pitchers seemed unprepared. New voices are needed.
     
  27. czar

    czar fanboy SoSH Member

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    EDIT: Delete me, not even worth the argument anymore.
     
  28. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Agreed. Summed it up nicely. He was the right guy at the right time with the 2013 roster. 4 years later the team has 2 last place finishes and 2 back to back AL East titles. One awful playoff showing and one that was a David Price outing away from being a shit show.

    Wouldn’t be shocked if DD lured an old horse like LaRussa or Leyland out of retirement and got Tek to agree to become bench coach with an eye of being the successor.
     
  29. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    LaRussa turned 73 years old a few days ago. Leyland reaches that age in December. (He also probably has well more than 100 pack years under his belt, but I suppose it's all in the genes).

    Earl Weaver had an Orioles reunion at the insistence of Edward Bennett Williams. At the age of 55. Second time around didn't work out so well. When you're done, you're done.
     
  30. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    I mean McKeon took over the Marlins mid season at 72 and won. So it’s not too crazy to think that it’s possible to get 1-2 years out of one of these guys and bridge it to a guy like Tek.
     
  31. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  32. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Carl Willis/Chili Davis co-managers?
     
  33. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Please, no. We went through one Bobby Valentine. Hate to say it, but the game has long passed by the LaRussa's and the Leyland's of the baseball world. There's plenty of other talent available to groom a Varitek if that's what they want.
     
  34. Jordu

    Jordu Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    All right, I’ll play.

    DiSarcina seems ready. Minor league manager, major league coach, major league bench coach.
     
  35. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    And he was on this completely overmatched staff and thus had a lot to do with their unpreparedness to play this series.

    No thanks.
     
  36. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Hard pass on anyone that is on this current staff.
     
  37. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Huge difference between Valentine and those guys. Valentine is a self promoter first and manager 3rd or 4th...
     
  38. streeter88

    streeter88 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Nice.
     
  39. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    How about the guys between DD and JF? We lost some heavy hitters in there. How much did losing Hazen, Sawdeye, Tippet, and Tewksbury in a single offseason hurt? Others are more knowledgeable about those contributions than I, but I remember at least losing Sawdeye ruffling some feathers.
     
  40. soxeast

    soxeast lurker

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    I'm hopeful that the Red Sox won't settle for "average" for any position including DH in that they will look to upgrade where/if they can. They do need better bats however in that they need more good hitters and not settle for "average performance" if they can avoid it. Though the guys that didn't hit well at least were decent to excellent defensively so they had some add'l value. Hanley can never be that. And we also know that Hanley is a very dumb baseball player. Thus his $22.75m contract is a big problem that the team needs to try hard to not have to pay in 2019. That means in 2018 find at worst "average hitters" that are cheaper but at worst just as good so the sox can at worst upgrade for 2019. IMO the easiest improvement is that the sox should be able to find a DH that can surpass Hanley's overall game. Thus I'll be very, very disappointed if the Sox are vesting Hanley's option if Hanley produces another "average" year.

    If Hanley is as "average" as you say-- I'd look to trade him and let the other team deal with his contract.
     
  41. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar lurker

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    Does Butterfield get any of the blame for the base running errors? Or how much can some of the runners be blamed for disregarding stop signs?

    I'm not a Farrell fan. For a former pitching coach, I don't think that he handles pitchers well. I also don't think he handles young players well as witnessed by the 115 lineups (sans pitchers) that he used this year. I know there were injuries but his tendency to vary batting order positions may not help players get comfortable.

    And as an aside to this, Farrell (50-64) was credited for the wins/losses (28-20) that Lovullo got in 2015 when he took over for the rest of the year.
     
  42. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar lurker

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    I'm not certain that they couldn't have made a better deal and based on how Sale has finished seasons since 2012, I'm not sure he was worth it. Of course, if they could draft pitchers then perhaps they wouldn't have to strip their farm system to get one.
     
  43. Apisith

    Apisith Member SoSH Member

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    The concerning thing is that the farm is pretty barren at the moment. It would be cool to think we could add 1 or 2 rookies that can produce like Benintendi did this year at say 1B and a backend starter.
     
  44. soxeast

    soxeast lurker

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    Thee is no 1b stud from the minors coming next year for Boston.
    And if healthy, can't Brian Johnson possibly be a decent back-end starter?
     
  45. Mannygirl

    Mannygirl lurker

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    Farrell had his run but I believe his time is up. Sale should have never started the 8th after the long 7th, I agree with Smilin' Joe 100%, Reed should have pitched the 8th.
    How about Houston's bench coach as the Sox next manager?? What's his name, Alex Cora.
     
  46. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Steven Wright or Hector Velazquez are both more likely.
     
  47. Kielty's Last Pitch

    Kielty's Last Pitch lurker

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    The overuse of Sale is inexcusable.

    Look at his career ERA/WHIP by month:

    Mar/Apr - 2.91/0.991
    May - 2.57/0.933
    June - 2.66/0.988
    July - 2.66/1.055
    August - 3.22/1.069
    Sep/Oct - 3.78/1.243

    And yet guess who led MLB in Innings Pitched? Guess who was 2nd in MLB for Pitches Thrown?

    A September game against a non-contender, with an expanded roster bullpen available to Farrell, and Sale was allowed to pitch the 6th & 7th with a 6-0 lead and the 8th despite having an 8-0 lead. Inexcusable.

    That's just one reason why I think the team will be fine going forward, as long as it acquires a bigtime slugger and a new manager/coaching staff.
     
  48. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    The Yankees lost their starting first baseman for 110'games. Tanaka, Chapman, and Betances were all surprisingly inconsistent. Some of the Yankees deadline additions will be back for them next year, and they have 5 hitting prospects as good as Devers and 5 pitching prospects as good as Groome.

    The ridiculous depth of their farm system means they can spend as much as they want without worrying about the luxury tax penalties for half a decade.

    We're about to see a replay of the 1995 to 2004 period of Yankee dominance.

    Meanwhile the Red Sox have a two year window in which they'll be the wild card favorites and then they have two remaining legitimate prospects above short season A ball.
     
  49. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Who?
     
  50. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Yeah, that part's obviously not true, Torres is the only guy still in the minors for NY who is projected to have a Devers-like impact, although Frazier, Andujar and Florial aren't too far behind, they are definitely behind.

    Also NY isn't the only team in MLB building a young powerhouse, HOU and CLE and LAD and CHC all are also, and even in the AL East, TOR and TB have a lot of young talent on the way. What I do think is true is that NY should be decidedly better on paper going into 2018 than they were coming into 2017, and quite possibly even better in 2019, which was the plan all along.
     

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