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Time for a rebuild?

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by crazybird1, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. mfried

    mfried Member SoSH Member

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    1,294
    The Sox need one hitter who inspires fear such as Machado, Trout, Stanton. I don't know who it should be, but this is a necessity going forward. The whole team would play closer to potential.
     
  2. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I totally agree that they need a big bopper, and that big bopper will affect the rest of the offense, but I don't think it needs to be a Trout or Stanton level player. A solid 30HR/yr guy would do it, I think.
     
  3. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    That's just a piece of it. Without factoring QO free agents into it, if you are 40% over, your highest pick moves back 10 spots. That's just a flat punishment for being that far over. (it's your 2nd pick if you have a top 6 pick in the draft).

    But once you start talking about the Sox making "big signings" (which is what I was responding to above), there are additional harsh penalties in the draft and IFA bonus pool.

    Here's a decent breakdown: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/12/1/13806488/mlb-new-cba-collective-bargaining-agreement-luxury-tax

    The relevant parts for a team that pays into revenue sharing (like the Red Sox) are in bold. Until they shed some significant payroll, I don't think they're going to be involved in any "big signings."

    In a way, Pablo Sandoval is the gift that keeps on giving.

    Edit: Actually, revenue sharing has nothing to do with the LT threshold, so the Sox would give up those picks whether they were above or not. So a chunk of my objection to the idea that they would go over is invalid. I still think, given how weak the farm system is, there will be hesitation, but it's probably not as unlikely as I had thought before now and would have nothing to do with current payroll.
     
    #103 Snodgrass'Muff, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  4. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    That big bopper can't be Devers? He just hit 10 HR in 58 games as a green 20-year-old rookie. That's nearly a 30-HR pace over a full season, and there were definitely periods of struggle in there where the league caught up to him. A few adjustments, some more experience, and he's a threat in the heart of the order.

    This whole thread is ridiculous. They collectively have a bad year offensively yet still won the division with 93 wins. If just a couple guys hit closer to their career averages and the youngsters (specifically Benintendi and Devers) continue to progress, even if the pitching slips a bit, they're still a 90+ win team next year. Just because the Astros and Indians took advantage of weaker divisions to pile up a few more Ws, that doesn't mean the overall gap between them and the Sox is that big at all.

    The Red Sox are still a young team on the rise, not one on the decline. Talk of rebuilding now smacks of a spoiled fanbase who thinks its entitled to World Championships every year. It's Yankee talk, quite frankly.
     
  5. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Actually, that's a really good point. That big bopper could well be Devers. When he was hitting out of his mind, the whole team looked invincible this year. If he hits to hit potential, Benintendi continues to improve and 2 out of three of Mookie, Hanley and Xander get back to doing what we know they're capable of doing, they'll score some runs.

    Edit: The more ridiculous thing about this thread is that we're all here talking like it's the offseason already. It's only been one game. They ain't dead yet.
     
  6. TFisNEXT

    TFisNEXT Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    8,763
    You could add JBJ to that too...he was down this year a bit.
     
  7. sean1562

    sean1562 lurker

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    This assumes the Yankees are just gonna cycle out of relevance in a few years when our window "reopens". They made some ridiculously stupid FA moves in the late 2000s that they have been digging themselves out of, but they are running their organization in an intelligent fashion now. Pair that with their ability to splurge on FAs, there is nothing guaranteeing that the Yankees are going to be some shitty team when our next line of top prospects comes to maturity.

    The Red Sox do not need to sell off everything, drop their payroll to zero and "rebuild". Were we the best team at the beginning of the 2004 season? 2007? 2013? Sign some veteran FA in the offseason to supplement the roster, see how Devers and Benintendi do next year, and then reassess. What happens when we win today? Do we start a new "Red Sox Dynasty??" thread?

    Edit: Also, it is great to have a Yankees team we can hate again. I mean, when we got destroyed by the Indians last year, the reaction was "we lost to the better team, we love Tito, we wish them all the best". The Yankees were not going to be mediocre forever.
     
  8. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    687
    Has the Theon Greyjoy comp already been made a thousand times?

    Carry on...
     
    #108 m0ckduck, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  9. The Napkin

    The Napkin wise ass al kaprielian Dope SoSH Member

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    JP Richardson is not walking through that door. And if he did he'd be dead.
     
  10. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Why? 'Cause of ONE little plane crash? psh.
     
  11. shaggydog2000

    shaggydog2000 Member SoSH Member

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    Bunr! Burn it all to the ground! Burn!
     
  12. notmannysfault

    notmannysfault Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I've been saying that for years, i appreciate seeing the quote from someone else, even if it did come from the bottom of the barrel, oh, hi Nip!

    In all seriousness, the thread is so much easier to handle than it would have been prior to 2004. I have a notion that although the idea is not up my alley, the thread itself would have been much less glib back in the early aughts....

    Before '04, I would be having a total f---ing meltdown today...just saying.
     
  13. absintheofmalaise

    absintheofmalaise too many flowers Dope SoSH Member

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    crazybird1 is feeding the gods.
     
  14. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    I would be interested in seeing a poll though - two questions. First question is, which team has a better chance to win it all in 2017 given the similar 0-1 situations. Second question is, which team is more likely to win a WS from 2018-2020 (or alternatively, which team will win more division titles in the next 3 years).
     
  15. 4 6 3 DP

    4 6 3 DP Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Sad thing is there is an interesting conversation probably about whether the team should tinker around the edges or pull more of a Celtics level approach (leverage assets into bigger/better ones), and it probably would make for a good topic, but not in the middle of the ALDS, and frankly not in reaction to last night.
     
  16. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    That's the thing, though. I don't think it's an interesting conversation at all. The team should tinker. This is a team prime for just a tinker. I don't think there's a valid argument otherwise right now. It's a team with a core of young, cost controlled players with huge upside.
     
  17. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Right -- it's going to depend on what kind of QO FAs and non-QO FAs will be available on the market. On the margins, it means that some QO FAs are more likely to re-sign with their current team, given the penalties on medium- and large-market teams, but overall the market probably doesn't change a whole lot.
     
  18. crazybird1

    crazybird1 lurker

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    I think I should issue a mea culpa on the full rebuild. I do understand the difficulties inherent in rebuilding and maybe 4 6 3 DP is right and this conversation should be shelved after the Playoffs. That being said I do think Plympton is right. A retooling might be necessary. If the Sox get bumped from the Alds for the second year in a row I think a good hard look has to be taken at what went wrong. Last year it was the pitching and this year its the pitching and offense. Now maybe Devers is that 30 homerun hitter, but I think given the window the Sox are working with its too risky to put all the eggs in that basket. I am leaning towards signing someone like JD Martinez and trading JBJ, but I am weary about allocating more dollars and more years to a guy who is already 30. This team already has dead money in Panda. Hanely and Porcello are not earning their paychecks, how much ore money can be spent on players not contributing?
     
  19. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Neither? I've said plenty about how overmatched the Sox are vs. the Astros, but the Yankees would potentially have to face Corey Kluber twice in the next four games just to make it to the next round.
     
  20. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    The "Celtics level approach" doesn't really work in baseball. A basketball team can leverage a couple younger players and a couple draft picks for one player that makes the team better overall. Baseball teams can't really do that. No single player is ever going to be as impactful on a baseball team as a basketball team.

    This is absolutely a tinker around the edges roster right now. The oldest player on the team expected to be back next year is Dustin Pedroia (only Rajai Davis is older on the current roster). When your oldest hold-over is 33, the entirety of the core of the team is under 30, and you're coming off back-to-back division titles, there's simply no reason to blow anything up.
     
  21. KiltedFool

    KiltedFool has a terminal case of creeping sharia SoSH Member

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    Can't speak to this year, but last year the Red Sox got bounced because they ran into a buzzsaw. That''s not "what went wrong", that's baseball. Can happen to any team.
     
  22. santadevil

    santadevil Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    The plan is to make the playoffs as often as possible and see what happens.
    I believe it was Theo who said this, but it's always made sense.

    The best team doesn't always and in fact rarely wins when it comes to the playoffs.

    Suggesting rebuild so the team will always win the division wouldn't guarantee them anything.
    Ya, the Wild Card game is scary and anything can happen, but same with the rest of the playoffs.

    You just have to get there to have a chance.
    Boston is setup to be a Top 5 AL team for the foreseeable future.
     
  23. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Thank you.

    If not considering retooling after every season, you're probably not being the best you can be.

    But there are limits in any given year. Interesting question raised by P91 is the extent to which what may be out there matches their needs. It may be that short of throwing financial considerations entirely out the window -- and that's not happening -- the RS simply won't match up well on paper going into 2018. In fact, it's probable.

    And I'm fine with that. That's when you hope things break in your direction -- the offense gets better, Price does not need TJ.

    When teams try to force what isn't there -- "goddammit, do something!" -- that's when they get into the most trouble. Money burning holes in our pockets begat Carl Crawford.

    Basketball does not provide a road map necessarily, but give me some Danny Ainge patience.
     
  24. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

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    The pitching was/is not an issue. A healthy David Price and/or E-Rod would have put them number two in team pitching WAR. As it was they finished 4th in that, as well as top 4 in ERA, FIP, and bb/9

    This is what good pitching looks like in 2017, where league average team ERA is roughly 4.50.
     
    #124 grimshaw, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  25. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    13,421
    A few things.

    As recently as March, the Cubs were an invincible team stacked with young players who were going to make the NL Central totally uncompetitive forever. Now, the Cubs repeated as division champs, but I still think there's a lesson there about recency bias. The Astros and Indians have a lot of good young players, but nothing is guaranteed. (I don't think the Yankees are close to as good as those teams; indeed, I think they'll be lucky to take a single game from Cleveland.)

    Of course, I also acknowledge that Boston is in a similar position relative to Houston, now that Sale has lost his game. But there's a reason that (non-Marlins) teams don't rebuild after winning the division.

    Next season, we look on paper to have the following rotation depth: Chris Sale (controllable through '19), David Price ('18), Drew Pomeranz ('18), Eduardo Rodriguez ('21), Rick Porcello ('19), Steven Wright ('20), Hector Velazquez (pre-arb), Roenis Elias ('21), Brian Johnson (pre-arb), Jalen Beeks (AAA), Henry Owens (pre-arb), maybe Dedgar Jimenez (AA). That's deep. Now some of those guys have question marks, but the twelve-deep starting depth of any team has guys with question marks — usually a lot more than this. Also, we have years of control left on a lot of good relievers, too. Kimbrel (18), Kelly (18), Smith (20), Barnes (21), Maddox (pre-arb), maybe Hembree (21) and if we get lucky with health, Thornburg (19).

    I just want to acknowledge what an amazing head start that is over almost every other team in the AL, with the sole exception of Cleveland.

    And it should structure how we think about the position player core. The time to think about changing direction on the roster is after '18 — when Price either opts out or doesn't — or '19, when Pomeranz, Sale, and Porcello are scheduled to hit FA. By then the young pitchers like Groome, Houck, Hernandez, Raudes, and Scherf will have either matured into candidates for the rotation... or not have.

    Until that time, we should not sell low on players like Bradley and Bogaerts.

    To get into the class of teams that include Cleveland and Houston, we need many/most of these things to happen.
    • We need both Price and Sale to be healthy and pitching at least 85% of the season.
    • We need solid performance out of some mix of the many, many guys behind them.
    • We need the bullpen to maintain something close to its success this season.
    • We need Betts to post at least a 120 wRC+, roughly halfway between his 2016 and 17 seasons.
    • We need Bogaerts to return to at least a 105-110 wRC+, if not more.
    • We need Bradley to have more hot streak and less cold streak for at least a 100 wRC+.
    • We need Devers, Vazquez, and Benintendi to continue their offensive progression.
    • Someone needs to show Dustin Pedroia his Fangraphs page, and point out to him that he gave back 75% of his defensive value on the base paths.
    • We need to get better performance out of the 1B/DH/bench slots.
    Most of this is health, coaching, and players returning to form.

    But what Dombrowski needs to do is find 3/4/5-type bats to play at both DH and 1B. Perhaps one of those is a healthier Hanley Ramirez, in which case, great — he's already in house. But I'm really interested in acquiring an elite bat at DH/4th OF, moving Ramirez to 1B close to full time (or — less likely — moving him in trade), and moving on from Moreland.

    I think the most straight-forward path to do this is to bring in JD Martinez to play 100 games at DH and 35 in LF.
     
  26. DisgruntledSoxFan77

    DisgruntledSoxFan77 lurker

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    Before or after the flaying?
     
  27. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  28. notmannysfault

    notmannysfault Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Brian Fellows is definitely a reasonable response in these tough times.

    Does a team that trusts Doug FIster (who I love for his contribution this year) in the deciding game of an 0-2 series with Rick Porcello as the primary form of relief seriously have designs on winning the series as opposed to let's say...Spahn and Sain and pray for rain?

    Simply put, I'm praying for rain... and then im praying for some style of Houston forfeit.

    Finally in the spirit of the above:

    I'M BRIAN FELLOWS!!!

    Great reference.
     
    #128 notmannysfault, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  29. backagain122

    backagain122 lurker

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    First off I just wanted to thank you and everyone else who participated in this thread without snark and condescension. Though many disagreed with the initial post this thread has lead to some interesting post. Its amazing what can happen when people are not intolerant. That being said it is sad that even the mods engage in ad hominem attacks. I think at this point there needs to be some serious soul searching for the Sox. This is the second year in the row where the pitching has flat out failed them in the postseason. Even if they get a big bat for the middle of the order, I am not comfortable going into a postseason with Price, Sale, Pomeranz, Erod and Porcello. They all seem to choke in big moments. For some of them it might be a small sample size, but given that this is the second year in the row it is happening, it is concerning.
     
    #129 backagain122, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  30. Old Fart Tree

    Old Fart Tree the maven of meat Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  31. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    I'm starting to wonder if they're behind the curve of Cleveland and Houston in analytics as well as talent. Back in the heyday it seemed like the Sox came into the postseason with distinct gameplans for successfully attacking other team's weaknesses. Grady Little was fired as much for discounting those plans in 2003 as he was for the incomprehensible decision making in Game 7.

    The past 2 years, it seems like Cleveland and now Houston was the one who knows what pitch is coming and what pitch to throw.
    There has been a lot of attrition in the front office as other teams have poached those who made those gameplans over the past 13 years.
     
  32. OCD SS

    OCD SS Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    With the current control on players, the Sox are stacked for a 3 year window; Sale was the bump to the first year while the team got under the CBT as a prelude to shopping this offseason. The question is where they can add talent in any such shopping spree.

    The main issue is how the lineup is constructed, which right now is weighted to defense (which is partly why the pitching looks so good).

    They need a new 1Bman. Hanley is very disappointing as a DH; it would probably be difficult to find someone to take his salary, but the Sox can probably afford to eat enough for 1 year if they can find a long term upgrade. They have other areas that they can look at upgrades, but they're tougher choices: they're all still relatively cheap and form a core most teams would envy.

    2B: As much as everyone was hoping for Pedroia to be Joe Morgan 2.0, he looks like he's going to continue to decline, playing less as he battles injuries, but providing value on defense. Chavis might be a cost controlled caddy for the position, rather than spending the next few years trying to find a succession of Nunez-types.

    The OF: is set with 3 CFers, but in some cases they're hitting like CFers as well. I'd hope a lot of improvement to the lineup would come from a bounce back from Mookie and Beni improving. JBJ is tougher, I don't see him getting better, just maybe getting one of his hot streaks back from last year to bring his numbers up. He's a potential candidate for replacement instead of a long term deal. Beni could slide back to CF and the defense would take a hit, but maybe be offset by a more traditional profile in LF.

    A side note on Mookie: at the end of last year FG looked at his numbers under the assumption that the ball was a bit juiced, and based on the number of balls sneaking over the wall, he looked like a candidate to regress this year if the ball was tamed.

    SS: X is a tough decision. He hasn't turned into the power hitter we hoped, and I'm less optimistic of him changing his hitting style. There's no obvious target at SS, and being average is worth something, but maybe not someone to lock up long term, especially since I don't expect his defense to age well.

    This team is going to need to rebuild, but not for a few more years.
     
  33. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    I'm with you on the 3 CFers and the need to see 2017 as the JBJ offensive baseline. That's why I'd dangle him to the Marlins, almost straight up for Stanton and his contract. Put Stanton in the middle of the order, and you still have Betts and Benintendi for OF defense. The team becomes much better balanced. Then get a 1B or DH that deserves to hit 5th and you've gone a long way toward closing the talent gap with the other 7 playoff teams.
     
  34. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Wait, what? I've seen people get suspended on this site for suggesting trades like this.

    And I'm speaking as someone who is generally a fan of your work.
     
  35. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar lurker

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    In Sale's instance, you must mean the first 85% of the season because ever since he became a starter in 2012 he has pitched poorly in the latter part of the season.

    Apr 9 to Aug 12, 2012/Aug 17 to Sep 29, 2012
    14-3, 2.60 ERA / 3-5, 4.22 ERA

    Aug 23 to Sep 27, 2013
    9-11, 2.78 ERA / 2-3, 4.04 ERA

    Mar 31 to Jul 26, 2014/Aug 1 to Sep 24, 2014
    10-1, 1.88 ERA / 2-3, 2.67 ERA

    Apr 12 to Aug 21, 2015/Aug 26 to Oct 2, 2015
    12-7, 3.34 ERA / 1-4, 3.65 ERA

    Apr 4 to Jul 2, 2016/Jul 8 to Oct 2, 2016
    14-2, 2.57 ERA / 3-4, 3.91 ERA

    Apr 5 to Aug 8, 2017/Aug 13 to Sep 26, 2017
    14-4, 2.72 ERA / 3-4, 3.91 ERA
    -------------------------------------------
    Before: 73-28, 2.72 ERA / After: 14-27, 3.69 ERA

    As for Price, he has been 2-8 in post-season play with both wins coming in relief.

    If I were in the position where I was going to spend huge amounts of money on a free agent starter or trade some of my highly regarded prospects for a starter, I might take a look at how they do at the en of seasons.
     
  36. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I'm surprised no one suggested trading Sale for two top young prospects like Kopech and Moncada. That would definitely help the RS in years 2019-2022.
     
  37. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    What do you think makes it lopsided?

    The Marlins get three years of control of an above average regular who fits their budget, the Red Sox take the risk of having many years of huge dead money in return for the reward of having a superstar in the middle of their lineup.

    Seems reasonable to me.
     
  38. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    Can we get a couple low minors lottery tickets thrown in to sweeten the deal?

    What I'd really like to do is trade Matt Barnes for an all-star 3B, an upper minors SS prospect, and two other prospects. That would do wonders for this organization.
     
  39. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Don't you think the Marlins could get a TON more for Stanton than just JBJ?
     
  40. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    Maybe someone would. But he's on a market value contract, so no one should be all that willing to.
     
  41. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    The idea that a team looking to deal a player on a market value contact shouldn't expect a big return is a long standing SoSH tradition but the real market doesn't work that way.

    They will get way more than JBJ straight up.
     
  42. Dogman2

    Dogman2 Yukon Cornelius Dope

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    I agree and this makes some sense. But where would he play? Back to the drawing board.
     
  43. Dogman2

    Dogman2 Yukon Cornelius Dope

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    DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!
     
  44. Unin10D

    Unin10D lurker

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    What team is this going forward? Is it the team from last year, anchored by an MVP-caliber season where almost player hitting out of their shoes bailed out a so-so pitching staff? Or is it the team from this year, where solid starting pitching and a dominant bullpen kept a pretty lackluster offense at the top of the AL East?

    If last year's offense was playing with this year's pitching, we'd be in the conversation as best team in baseball. If last year's pitching had met with this year's offense, we'dve probably missed the playoffs.

    The crazy thing is, it's practically the same team. Sure you lost Ortiz, but you picked up Sale. If the pitching staff can stay dominant and the offense can come back next year and hit close to what they're supposed to, this team could go far. So yeah, I dunno. Watching the last two games, it's apparent that we need a middle-of-the-order bat from somewhere. This year's free agent class isn't great. JD Martinez is 30. Hosmer isn't that good. So I don't know
     
  45. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

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    I feel exactly the same way as I did back when Matt Holiday was first on the market to replace Manny. Except now the Sox need to replace Big Papi.

    The team has a clear hole, and need a high-contact, high-power guy to anchor the middle of the order. Ideally, a LHH or switch-hitter. A low-AVG, low-OBP all-or-nothing slugger (such as Morrison) won’t really fix the problem. A RHH doesn’t address the lineup-balance problems which would be created, because then Farrell will tend to gratuitously slot a LHH who doesn’t belong there into the middle of the order (I’m looking at you, 2-bags).

    The obvious solution is there, but not that easy. DDski has to find some way to wrangle Freddie Freeman from the Braves. Even though it will take real talent to do so.
     
  46. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    I was actually thinking.... Joey Votto. The Reds are going nowhere fast. Votto is amazing, but he's making a lot of money (not a CRAZY amount per year in today's market - $25m/yr - but still, a lot of money) over a LONG period of time - he's still signed through 2023 - that's another 6 seasons, until he's 39. I know the Reds signed him to that huge contract, but part of why they did was to secure his prime years, knowing that he'll not likely be worth that money the last couple of years. Well, Votto signed that contract in April of 2012. They got his 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 years out of him so far (ages 28-33). Those were his prime years. I don't know if they'd mind getting out from under the last six years of his contract, given that they'd be his age 34-39 years.

    For the Sox, well, the hope would be that his prime would actually extend til age 36, and then his decline would take him from elite to merely pretty good. He'd be expensive for "pretty good", but still. A big market team like Boston...this risk is more palatable than it might be for the Reds.

    So I don't know what it would take to pry Votto from the Reds. But if we're talking Freddie Freeman ($21-22 million per year through 2021), we may as well talk about Joey Votto, who is older, more expensive, but....much better as well.

    But if we're talking Freeman, maybe...just maybe... The Sox could swing a deal whereby they trade Bradley for Freeman and Kemp. I'm not really a Kemp fan, and he's expensive, and he's terrible defensively. But it takes two huge contracts off the Braves' hands and gives the Sox power in both LF (Benny to CF) and 1b. As much as I mocked Bradley for Stanton, the reason I throw THIS one out there is because Kemp over the last four years has accumulated a whopping 0.3 bWAR, all at the nice low price of nearly $87 million. If the Braves could dump that contract, maybe they'd be willing to make this kind of trade.

    Last 4 seasons Kemp: 102 hr, 361 rbi, ops+ of 140, 109, 113, 103. Maybe his awful defense would be camouflaged some by LF at Fenway.

    C Vazquez
    1b Freeman
    2b Pedroia
    3b Devers
    SS Bogaerts
    LF Kemp
    CF Benintendi
    RF Betts
    DH Hanley

    I don't like it as much as adding Martinez/Abreu, but it's an alternative. Expensive, absolutely, but that's one way they may be able to
     
  47. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,639
    I thought Joey Votto has been adamant he'd never waive his no trade.
     
  48. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,380
    That's the main reason I am on the Freddie Freeman train.

    If you could convince Votto to waive the no-trade, and he could keep duplicating his 2017, then he'd be the perfect option.

    Although, I'm skeptical he'll age as well as Baseballjones is hoping. His batting crouch is very low and has to put a ton of pressure on his knees. He'd get to DH once Hanley whenever Hanley is off the books, so that would help some. But still, Freeman hits a little more up-right, is younger, and cheaper. Of course, that also means he'd be pricey in trade, but the Sox should match up pretty well.

    JBJ isn't nearly enough for a Freeman, and I think DDski would have to give up a cornerstone young player we'd all hate to see go. An intriguing strategy would be for the Sox to use Beni as the blue chip to get Freeman, then sign either of JD Martinez or Jay Bruce to play LF. Alternatively, they could trade Devers and pay Moustakas.

    But hey, any trade proposals are total speculation, and maybe the Sox could entice the Braves to bite on a package of JBJ, Swihart (for 3B), and EdRo...or something. But I doubt it.
     
  49. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar lurker

    Messages:
    574
    I don't know if you meant that as sarcasm, or what, but in actuality it does not matter what player do after your team trades them. All that matters is how valuable they are perceived by potential trade partners. And in this case, Moncada was ranked as the 5th best prospect in baseball and Kopech, the 67th. ANd not only did the Red Sox pick up more salary with Sale, they still had to finish paying off Moncada's signing bonus.. Given all the money going out along with two ranked prospects and two other players, I'm wondering whether they could not have made a better trade.

    Alternatively, we could just say that the minor league prospect ranking are completely worthless and never, ever bring them up on this board again.
     
  50. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    27,089
    Do you mean could they have gotten the White Sox to toss in a far away prospect with an intriguing ceiling (or two)? Yeah, probably. If you mean could they have gotten a better return than one of the top 5 pitchers on the planet on a preposterously under market deal? No. They couldn't have.

    Why would the Braves be interested in moving Freeman? They're about to get really really good and their long term payroll obligations are few. And Freeman is on a significantly below market deal. At least with Votto there's a chance the Red would be looking to dump the contract, even if Votto would need to be convinced to accept the trade.
     

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